Post by: konrad on April 05, 2013, 02:05:10 PM
I believe that the added concentration on form and sighting when focusing at long distance is at least half of the story. Concentration on form, sighting picture quality and release technique all serve to shrink groups at long distance. No one wants to loose or damage their expensive arrows!
The following are some tips I have found that will shave inches from 60 yard groups and then lead to Robin Hoods at what will next appear the “too easy” ranges of 20 and 30 yards:
First, round up a shooting partner (a patient one) and number your arrows. Have him make notes about where you think each shaft has gone (i.e. “6 o’clock and low”) otherwise known as “calling the shots”. Then, when retrieving your shafts compare the recorded notes to the actual impacts. There will be some shots you know you blew. There will be others that you also know had perfect form and release. These are the shots and groups that count. Remove all of the known “fliers” and measure the remaining group size. Then making incremental adjustments to one’s rest or nock height will reveal major group differences you would never have seen on the torn paper at six yards or at the 20 or 30 yard line. If you get lost, you can always go back to the paper tear method and start over.
This process may take days depending on how many shots you can accurately control before fatigue sets in. It’s a long time till hunting season gets here and if everything works correctly, you will need only one shot at that buck. A tired archer makes for poor shooting. Stop before you do get tired. At this stage, where the groups actually hit on the target is immaterial. Group sizes are what need noting. If you make an adjustment in one direction and groups get better, keep going in that direction until the groups deteriorate, then move that adjustment back to where it was best. Shoot again to confirm your original results and ONLY CHANGE ONE SMALL ADJUSTMENT AT A TIME! (I.e. right/left and then up/down on your rest or nock set) After you have found the optimum group sizes you can reasonably expect, you can then adjust your sights to “zero”. Of course, the use of a sight bubble level and making sure the sight has been adjusted for all three axis makes long distance shooting much more consistent. Note how these days levels are showing up on more and more long distance rifles. Even a modest bow cant right or left will throw impacts out of the main group.
If you are shooting five inch groups at 50 yards, that’s pretty good but a reduction of just one inch in group size translates into a significant (20% reduction) change.
I have also found that using a target spot large enough to clearly see around your sight pin is critical for obtaining repeatable groups. For instance, if you are using a .019 pin, use a bull’s eye that shows at least twice the diameter or the pin bead. The human eye will naturally center the two images if both can be clearly seen. If the spot is partially obscured by the pin, the eye has no repeatable reference with which to center.
Remember, small, incremental adjustments and the taking of notes can pay huge dividends.
Have fun and watch your buds show new found respect for your skills!
Konrad
Post by: Smossy on April 16, 2013, 12:27:50 AM
Post by: Duffer on April 16, 2013, 01:44:27 AM
Hard to notice on a fast bow at 10-20-30 yards ( the pins will seem almost even spaced and quite close to each other) but more obviously spaced out at 40-50-60
Post by: konrad on April 16, 2013, 09:57:12 AM
Depending on the speed of your arrow/bow combination your pins may be more closely spaced at shorter ranges and spaced further apart as the range increases. As the arrow looses velocity it will arc more and as such the pin gap will increase accordingly.
Another topic to consider:
Most everyone I know and speak with uses their sight pins for equally spaced distances in ten yard increments. When I purchased my rangefinder, I found that hardly ever was anything that I ranged at a nice, round increment of ten yards (i.e.10, 20 or 30 yards). Invariably the ranges shown were similar to “27 yards, 33 yards, 16 yards, 54 yards, etc, etc.”
Most recently, I have re-sighted my pins at ten yard increments starting at 15 yards and then going to 25, 35, 45, etc, etc.
Now, I don’t bother with estimating the correct gap between pins when shooting. I choose the closest pin to the range finder’s reading and concentrate on my form. I have found that the additional attention required to focus upon estimating the correct distance between two pins was distracting enough for me that I was unable to properly focus on the more important aspects of making the shot. If my arrow strikes high or low an inch or two, I am not concerned. I would much rather hit a little high or low than fore or aft…particularly on a game animal.
I have found that I am a much better shot (at game or otherwise) when I don’t have to think about anything.
Perhaps it’s just the way my simple mind works.
I never claimed to be a genius.
Post by: Smossy on April 16, 2013, 11:42:02 AM
When you say that your pins are equally spaced, I am assuming that you have a new sight that you are dealing with.Your right, its still setup how it came as far as pins. Ive only adjusted up and downs. Im not sure what my bow shoots as far as fps but I imagine its not very high as its from 2005. Probably in the 270-280 range but like I said I really dont know. Its a hoyt ultrasport zr100 if that tells you anything. Set at 62lbs and 28 inch draw. So you confirmed what i basiclly was thinking. That my 40 50 and 60 should be spaced apart more. Today Im gonna do some range tuning now that I know and hopefully I wont lose any arrows in the process :chuckle: The alternative setup doesnt sound like a bad idea. 15-25-35-45-55. I imagine I wont ever be shooting past 55 yards as we all know thats an unethical shot without absolute perfect conditions. Which is almost never.
Depending on the speed of your arrow/bow combination your pins may be more closely spaced at shorter ranges and spaced further apart as the range increases. As the arrow looses velocity it will arc more and as such the pin gap will increase accordingly.
Another topic to consider:
Most everyone I know and speak with uses their sight pins for equally spaced distances in ten yard increments. When I purchased my rangefinder, I found that hardly ever was anything that I ranged at a nice, round increment of ten yards (i.e.10, 20 or 30 yards). Invariably the ranges shown were similar to “27 yards, 33 yards, 16 yards, 54 yards, etc, etc.”
Most recently, I have re-sighted my pins at ten yard increments starting at 15 yards and then going to 25, 35, 45, etc, etc.
Now, I don’t bother with estimating the correct gap between pins when shooting. I choose the closest pin to the range finder’s reading and concentrate on my form. I have found that the additional attention required to focus upon estimating the correct distance between two pins was distracting enough for me that I was unable to properly focus on the more important aspects of making the shot. If my arrow strikes high or low an inch or two, I am not concerned. I would much rather hit a little high or low than fore or aft…particularly on a game animal.
I have found that I am a much better shot (at game or otherwise) when I don’t have to think about anything.
Perhaps it’s just the way my simple mind works.
I never claimed to be a genius.
Post by: PA BEN on April 17, 2013, 05:36:43 AM
Post by: konrad on April 17, 2013, 11:10:44 AM
As for myself…the dedication is there and a modicum of talent but my gifts are far and few between. Therefore, I must take advantage of everything to maximize my success.
Your practice of varying shooting positions is excellent. There will rarely be a time when an archer a field will be afforded the opportunity to implement his or her back yard “perfect” form. I have found that sitting on a stool and kneeling (both knees down) are very stabile positions assuming one can achieve correct shoulder orientation. In fact, I have found that my stool shooting shaves off a decidedly measurable percentage of my group sizes. I believe this is because sitting removes at least half of the swiveling joints from my skeleton or “shooting platform”.
I would also add that if one is contemplating the use of ground blind or tree stand, they actually be incorporated into the standard practice routine. It is much preferred to work out the logistics of entering, shooting from and leaving a stand while un-pressured rather than trying to dope out correct procedures while hunting.
However, in this fellow’s case as a beginning archer, he needs every positive influence in achieving success. As such he should be focused on the least contorted, most stabile, correct shooting positions he can attain as he is just now in the “sighting in” stage of the process. When his arrows and bow are tuned to one another, he is absolutely sure his sights are dialed in and his shooting technique is perfected, then he can engage in the finer points of field shooting at game.
Post by: Smossy on April 17, 2013, 11:19:52 AM
You Sir are a gifted, dedicated and obviously naturally talented individual.Yeah exactly. I just tried to get it worked out somewhat yesterday.. "To at-least get my pins to where I can hit a coyote 3d Target from varying ranges." I wouldnt say its anywhere near spot on yet. The target is pretty small at 60 yards and Its not easy hitting the same spot repeatedly, It seems long range my arrows like to drift a little to the right, Not sure If its the wind or my sights yet.
As for myself…the dedication is there and a modicum of talent but my gifts are far and few between. Therefore, I must take advantage of everything to maximize my success.
Your practice of varying shooting positions is excellent. There will rarely be a time when an archer a field will be afforded the opportunity to implement his or her back yard “perfect” form. I have found that sitting on a stool and kneeling (both knees down) are very stabile positions assuming one can achieve correct shoulder orientation. In fact, I have found that my stool shooting shaves off a decidedly measurable percentage of my group sizes. I believe this is because sitting removes at least half of the swiveling joints from my skeleton or “shooting platform”.
I would also add that if one is contemplating the use of ground blind or tree stand, they actually be incorporated into the standard practice routine. It is much preferred to work out the logistics of entering, shooting from and leaving a stand while un-pressured rather than trying to dope out correct procedures while hunting.
However, in this fellow’s case as a beginning archer, he needs every positive influence in achieving success. As such he should be focused on the least contorted, most stabile, correct shooting positions he can attain as he is just now in the “sighting in” stage of the process. When his arrows and bow are tuned to one another, he is absolutely sure his sights are dialed in and his shooting technique is perfected, then he can engage in the finer points of field shooting at game.
Going to have to wait untill I can get into a more controlled area with a larger target to really get them tuned well for longer shots.
Post by: Special T on April 17, 2013, 11:49:17 AM
Post by: elk247 on April 17, 2013, 12:01:28 PM
Slow down smossy. With practice you should be hitting 60 yard shot consistantly. You have a nice, newer, pretty fast and accurate bow. Piece of cake. I know you live by tsc. They have a great facility. If you shoot or sight in there, you shouldnt loose any arrows. They have better backstops most likely then you do. Good luck. You can certanily be ethical out past 55 yards. It does take practice and confidence.When you say that your pins are equally spaced, I am assuming that you have a new sight that you are dealing with.Your right, its still setup how it came as far as pins. Ive only adjusted up and downs. Im not sure what my bow shoots as far as fps but I imagine its not very high as its from 2005. Probably in the 270-280 range but like I said I really dont know. Its a hoyt ultrasport zr100 if that tells you anything. Set at 62lbs and 28 inch draw. So you confirmed what i basiclly was thinking. That my 40 50 and 60 should be spaced apart more. Today Im gonna do some range tuning now that I know and hopefully I wont lose any arrows in the process :chuckle: The alternative setup doesnt sound like a bad idea. 15-25-35-45-55. I imagine I wont ever be shooting past 55 yards as we all know thats an unethical shot without absolute perfect conditions. Which is almost never.
Depending on the speed of your arrow/bow combination your pins may be more closely spaced at shorter ranges and spaced further apart as the range increases. As the arrow looses velocity it will arc more and as such the pin gap will increase accordingly.
Another topic to consider:
Most everyone I know and speak with uses their sight pins for equally spaced distances in ten yard increments. When I purchased my rangefinder, I found that hardly ever was anything that I ranged at a nice, round increment of ten yards (i.e.10, 20 or 30 yards). Invariably the ranges shown were similar to “27 yards, 33 yards, 16 yards, 54 yards, etc, etc.”
Most recently, I have re-sighted my pins at ten yard increments starting at 15 yards and then going to 25, 35, 45, etc, etc.
Now, I don’t bother with estimating the correct gap between pins when shooting. I choose the closest pin to the range finder’s reading and concentrate on my form. I have found that the additional attention required to focus upon estimating the correct distance between two pins was distracting enough for me that I was unable to properly focus on the more important aspects of making the shot. If my arrow strikes high or low an inch or two, I am not concerned. I would much rather hit a little high or low than fore or aft…particularly on a game animal.
I have found that I am a much better shot (at game or otherwise) when I don’t have to think about anything.
Perhaps it’s just the way my simple mind works.
I never claimed to be a genius.
Post by: Smossy on April 17, 2013, 12:08:20 PM
Okok.. *deep breath* Guess i gotta put some time into this year membership at one point or another! Sounds like a great idea.Slow down smossy. With practice you should be hitting 60 yard shot consistantly. You have a nice, newer, pretty fast and accurate bow. Piece of cake. I know you live by tsc. They have a great facility. If you shoot or sight in there, you shouldnt loose any arrows. They have better backstops most likely then you do. Good luck. You can certanily be ethical out past 55 yards. It does take practice and confidence.When you say that your pins are equally spaced, I am assuming that you have a new sight that you are dealing with.Your right, its still setup how it came as far as pins. Ive only adjusted up and downs. Im not sure what my bow shoots as far as fps but I imagine its not very high as its from 2005. Probably in the 270-280 range but like I said I really dont know. Its a hoyt ultrasport zr100 if that tells you anything. Set at 62lbs and 28 inch draw. So you confirmed what i basiclly was thinking. That my 40 50 and 60 should be spaced apart more. Today Im gonna do some range tuning now that I know and hopefully I wont lose any arrows in the process :chuckle: The alternative setup doesnt sound like a bad idea. 15-25-35-45-55. I imagine I wont ever be shooting past 55 yards as we all know thats an unethical shot without absolute perfect conditions. Which is almost never.
Depending on the speed of your arrow/bow combination your pins may be more closely spaced at shorter ranges and spaced further apart as the range increases. As the arrow looses velocity it will arc more and as such the pin gap will increase accordingly.
Another topic to consider:
Most everyone I know and speak with uses their sight pins for equally spaced distances in ten yard increments. When I purchased my rangefinder, I found that hardly ever was anything that I ranged at a nice, round increment of ten yards (i.e.10, 20 or 30 yards). Invariably the ranges shown were similar to “27 yards, 33 yards, 16 yards, 54 yards, etc, etc.”
Most recently, I have re-sighted my pins at ten yard increments starting at 15 yards and then going to 25, 35, 45, etc, etc.
Now, I don’t bother with estimating the correct gap between pins when shooting. I choose the closest pin to the range finder’s reading and concentrate on my form. I have found that the additional attention required to focus upon estimating the correct distance between two pins was distracting enough for me that I was unable to properly focus on the more important aspects of making the shot. If my arrow strikes high or low an inch or two, I am not concerned. I would much rather hit a little high or low than fore or aft…particularly on a game animal.
I have found that I am a much better shot (at game or otherwise) when I don’t have to think about anything.
Perhaps it’s just the way my simple mind works.
I never claimed to be a genius.
Post by: LeeMajors on April 17, 2013, 12:18:38 PM
Post by: BenC567 on April 17, 2013, 12:36:27 PM
Post by: Smossy on April 17, 2013, 03:44:13 PM
I found that this chart: http://www.bowmenofskelmersdale.co.uk/sight_calibration.html (http://www.bowmenofskelmersdale.co.uk/sight_calibration.html) was very accurate and easy to use. I sighted in my 20 and 30 and then used the chart to find my 40, 50, and 60. Worked great!Looks Interesting. Once downloaded as a word doc, Should it be full page sized?
Post by: BenC567 on April 17, 2013, 03:59:25 PM
Post by: Smossy on April 17, 2013, 04:00:27 PM
Yea, it will be full page. If for some reasons it doesn't work I will scan my copy and email it to you if you want.I got it printed out, It was just confusing for a second. I understand it now.
Post by: jechicdr on April 17, 2013, 08:23:03 PM
Post by: elk247 on April 17, 2013, 10:24:59 PM
Post by: PA BEN on April 18, 2013, 06:40:20 AM
Post by: elk247 on April 18, 2013, 01:41:37 PM
Post by: Smossy on April 18, 2013, 04:05:41 PM
I just got back into shooting my bow after 7 years of not bow hunting. I can’t believe all the so-called stuff you have to have to shoot tight groups at any given yard. IE; levels on your sites. I saw one site that had a glow green dot that had a smaller black dot you had to center while your pin was on the target before each shot. By the time you look at all this stuff your shot on your game animal is gone. I just wonder now I killed deer w/a re-curve and longbow no sites and how I killed my first buck with a compound bow using fingers at 30 yds? Anchor point and practice, practice, practice. I would go for walks in the woods no ranger finders and judge yardage and stump shoot w/judo points. I never used a ranger finder until the late 90’s and then only from a tree stand. We can make anything harder than it really is. Don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to bust anybody’s balls here, just saying what works for me.That would be the IQ bow sight. Its def way over priced. My bow sight does have a level. When your practicing with stuff like that it actually does not take longer like you said it might, It becomes second nature to draw, put your pin where you want it, fire away.
The IQ would take alittle longer though to find your POI because you would have to find the dot to dot.
Post by: jechicdr on April 18, 2013, 04:23:59 PM
Or split the difference between the pins. :dunno: might be more accurate than holding high/low. The hardest shot for me is when they are 15 and closer. Ive heard you can just look down your arrow spline but i need to try this on the range. I'll probably look lime a dummy shooting at a target from 10 yards, but thats better than missing a bull that close.The archery program also helps with the close shots too. Let me see if I can find the chart I made, then just taped it to my rangefinder. The take home for my setup for close range was anything between 7 and 25 yards, just have to use my 20 yard pin. Anything between 2 and 7 yards, should be able to fit my whole site on the vitals and hit a deer or elk. If it is under 2 yards, I'll be shipping my pants.
80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89
80 80 +2 80 +4 80 +7 80 +9 80 +11 80 +14 80 +16 80 +19 80 +22
70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79
70 70 +2 70 +4 70 +6 70 +8 70 +10 80 -8 80 -6 80 -4 80 -2
60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69
60 60 +2 60 +3 60 +5 60 +6 60 +8 70 -7 70 -5 70 -3 70 -2
50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59
50 50 +1 50 +2 50 +4 50 +5 50 +7 60 -5 60 -4 60 -3 60 -1
40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
40 40 +1 40 +2 40 +3 40 +4 40 +5 50 -4 50 -3 50 -2 50 -1
30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39
30 30 +1 30 +1 30 +2 30 +3 30 +4 40 -3 40 -2 40 -2 40 -1
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29
20 20 20 +1 20 +1 20 +1 20 +2 30 -2 30 -2 30 -1 30 -1
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 20 20 -1 20 -1 20 -1 20 -1 20 -1 20 -1 20 20
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
80 +4 80 +2 80 60 50 40 30 20 +1 20 20
Post by: Smossy on April 18, 2013, 04:26:27 PM
Are these variables for which pin will be good for X range?Or split the difference between the pins. :dunno: might be more accurate than holding high/low. The hardest shot for me is when they are 15 and closer. Ive heard you can just look down your arrow spline but i need to try this on the range. I'll probably look lime a dummy shooting at a target from 10 yards, but thats better than missing a bull that close.The archery program also helps with the close shots too. Let me see if I can find the chart I made, then just taped it to my rangefinder. The take home for my setup for close range was anything between 7 and 25 yards, just have to use my 20 yard pin. Anything between 2 and 7 yards, should be able to fit my whole site on the vitals and hit a deer or elk. If it is under 2 yards, I'll be shipping my pants.
80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89
80 80 +2 80 +4 80 +7 80 +9 80 +11 80 +14 80 +16 80 +19 80 +22
70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79
70 70 +2 70 +4 70 +6 70 +8 70 +10 80 -8 80 -6 80 -4 80 -2
60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69
60 60 +2 60 +3 60 +5 60 +6 60 +8 70 -7 70 -5 70 -3 70 -2
50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59
50 50 +1 50 +2 50 +4 50 +5 50 +7 60 -5 60 -4 60 -3 60 -1
40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
40 40 +1 40 +2 40 +3 40 +4 40 +5 50 -4 50 -3 50 -2 50 -1
30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39
30 30 +1 30 +1 30 +2 30 +3 30 +4 40 -3 40 -2 40 -2 40 -1
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29
20 20 20 +1 20 +1 20 +1 20 +2 30 -2 30 -2 30 -1 30 -1
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 20 20 -1 20 -1 20 -1 20 -1 20 -1 20 -1 20 20
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
80 +4 80 +2 80 60 50 40 30 20 +1 20 20
Post by: Smossy on April 18, 2013, 04:28:15 PM
Post by: elk247 on April 18, 2013, 04:39:50 PM
Post by: Smossy on April 18, 2013, 04:46:06 PM
Seems logical. But field test that theroy, i shot a bull a 10 yards with my 20 yard pin and it shot high of the vitals but below the spine. Luckly it clipped a bit of lung. Maybe i was shaking like a leaf? I tried to controll my breathing but i was excited for sure.lol Cant say for sure. Im sure I woulda done the same or missed completely :chuckle: Never experienced the rush of a hunt yet. Just lots of practice.
Post by: RadSav on April 18, 2013, 05:21:02 PM
Seems logical. But field test that theroy, i shot a bull a 10 yards with my 20 yard pin and it shot high of the vitals but below the spine. Luckly it clipped a bit of lung. Maybe i was shaking like a leaf? I tried to controll my breathing but i was excited for sure.
For the average archer using his/her 20 yard pin you will shoot high at 15 yards but low at 10 yards. I just shot two turkeys over with Bearpaw using a 15 yard pin. First bird was at six yards and I aimed 2.5" high and hit perfect. The second bird was at eight yards and I aimed 1.5" high and hit a little low. Both birds got a second arrow at 35 yards for insurance. I did not have the time to adjust the single pin sight so I used the same 15 yard pin and held 18" high. Both shots missed the spine a little to the left, but both took the arrow perfect lung height.
I do use a rather low anchor point compared to most bowhunters. So that might not be exact for everyone, but it should be darned close for most.
Post by: elk247 on April 18, 2013, 05:37:17 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 18, 2013, 05:51:54 PM
Right on! Congrats on the birds RadSav. Looks like Dale has been kicking butt on the birds so far.
It's almost not even fair for the turkeys Bearpaw has got them so dialed in over there. Battleready took two birds as well. I could have taken three before the first days lunch if it would have been legal. Darned bugger came in and started humping my first dead tom. Stuck my head out of the blind and said, "We'll have none of that around here!" :chuckle:
Post by: elk247 on April 18, 2013, 05:59:35 PM
Post by: jechicdr on April 18, 2013, 09:06:46 PM
The one I used is from http://www.pinwheelsoftware.com/. (http://www.pinwheelsoftware.com/.) The full version has a nice "target practice" feature.