Post by: Decker on April 12, 2013, 09:19:02 PM
http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2013/apr/12/wash-panel-oks-lighted-nocks-bowhunting/ (http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2013/apr/12/wash-panel-oks-lighted-nocks-bowhunting/)
Post by: bobcat on April 12, 2013, 09:23:59 PM
But I'm glad they legalized them so the arguing can stop. :IBCOOL:
Post by: Angus on April 12, 2013, 09:24:19 PM
Post by: JLS on April 12, 2013, 09:26:14 PM
Post by: earlmarne on April 12, 2013, 09:29:02 PM
i dont think they make them for deep impact arrows though.
now they needa get on lettin me run a mech head
Post by: Decker on April 12, 2013, 09:30:47 PM
At least now I can have a hunting show on Outdoor Channel (cause we can use lighted knocks.)
Post by: DoubleJ on April 12, 2013, 09:32:42 PM
It's a non-issue to me- I won't be using them.
But I'm glad they legalized them so the arguing can stop. :IBCOOL:
x2
Post by: sakoshooter on April 12, 2013, 11:24:27 PM
Post by: bigtex on April 12, 2013, 11:42:32 PM
But I'm glad they legalized them so the arguing can stop. :IBCOOL:
Nah. I am sure the next will be mechanical broadheads...Scopes on muzzleloaders..
Remember when crossbows were 100% illegal? Then it was just for disabled..and now anyone in a firearm restricted area..
Post by: RadSav on April 13, 2013, 12:51:19 AM
I figure a whole bunch of guys are going to fall in love with it at first saying they are the greatest thing to happen to Washington bowhunting since the introduction of the compound bow. Then they are going to start shooting through the chrony and wet their pants. Especially if they do the right thing and shoot a heavier point to make up for the increase in weight to the back end of the arrow. With my 27.5" arrows if I adjust to get back my FOC it drops my speed by 15fps. Myself I could care less about my bows speed so it's no nevermind to me. But for the majority of speed freaks out there that will never be acceptable. So they will shoot too light of broadhead and the first time they shoot at something in bad weather the honeymoon will be over. Then they will start a thread telling everyone how lighted nocks S*&k ;)
Just watch the arrow flight in most videos where the hunters use the lighted nocks. Even at the 20-25 yards most of them are filmed at the arrow flight is horrible. Now try hunting in western Washignton during a windy rain storm with that poor FOC, bad arrow flight and our long range shooters. It's going to be ugly until guys understand what it takes to get them to work well. And no! Mechanicals are not going to solve that problem :chuckle:
If officially legal in Washington you may very well see me shooting them. I can guarantee you that if the wife can get more than 220 fps she will be shooting them. But I expect after the first couple of years the loss of speed, increased difficulty of flight and the great cost of the product you probably won't be seeing too many people shooting them out in the field. How much money do you have for lighted nocks after dropping $1,200 on that Hoyt or Mathews anyway :tung: Ten bucks ($10.00 and that's cheap!!!) a nock is going to be hard for a lot of guys to swallow. Especially when the quality of the electronics is quite poor on most models. Out of the 100 or so I have played with I'd guess more than 80 of those failed after only a half dozen shots. About 30% of those never did work new out of the package.
Most reliable in my opinion from testing = Nockturnal by Rage
Post by: earlmarne on April 13, 2013, 08:33:52 AM
i stress on puting full size wraps on my arrows after i get em built to what i want.i dont think i will be able to use them on my deep impacts,bn i have no way besides point weight to bump up my FOC.now my gt big games are going to be sitting at somewhere around 18 percent so i think i will have to give them a shot.but if they really throw my arrow system out of whack they will have a very short lived life in my quiver
Post by: dreamingbig on April 13, 2013, 09:32:37 AM
Post by: PolarBear on April 13, 2013, 09:35:06 AM
It's a non-issue to me- I won't be using them.:yeah:
Post by: Curly on April 13, 2013, 09:57:26 AM
Post by: PolarBear on April 13, 2013, 10:22:12 AM
Post by: huntnphool on April 13, 2013, 10:51:34 AM
Now before some idiot tries to argue that this is different because lumenoks are not in the constitution, yes, I know that, but the underlying point to the whole thing is "it should be our choice" and now it is.
If you want to spend more time tuning your arrows because it adds weight to the back end, its your choice. If you can't enter your animal in the P&Y record book because you used one, its your choice. If you want to use them because you lose a lot of arrows, its your choice. If you don't want to use them because you are dead set against them, it's your choice.
The bottom line is if they do nothing to aid in giving the hunter a advantage over the animal then it should be each individuals own choice to use them, and now it is! :twocents:
Post by: snowpack on April 13, 2013, 11:38:03 AM
Post by: Smossy on April 13, 2013, 12:21:10 PM
It's been interesting, over the last couple years, to read all the different comments and opinions on lumenoks. I have seen a lot of pro gun members on here make claims that lumenoks should not be allowed for this and for that, while at the same time they fight the anti gun groups and politicians trying to do the same thing, take away our individual rights.Well said man. If I can ever get the whole foc thing figured out 100% to tune arrows myself I absolutely will be using lighted nocks. Thats my choice..
Now before some idiot tries to argue that this is different because lumenoks are not in the constitution, yes, I know that, but the underlying point to the whole thing is "it should be our choice" and now it is.
If you want to spend more time tuning your arrows because it adds weight to the back end, its your choice. If you can't enter your animal in the P&Y record book because you used one, its your choice. If you want to use them because you lose a lot of arrows, its your choice. If you don't want to use them because you are dead set against them, it's your choice.
The bottom line is if they do nothing to aid in giving the hunter a advantage over the animal then it should be each individuals own choice to use them, and now it is! :twocents:
Plus, what else do I have to do in the off season..? :dunno:
Post by: Bob33 on April 13, 2013, 12:56:47 PM
Post by: elk247 on April 13, 2013, 01:01:06 PM
Post by: huntnphool on April 13, 2013, 01:03:17 PM
If they do, archery harvest rates should improve, which in effect will likely cause archery seasons to be changed or shortened.I think it will lead to less animals being lost, resulting in increased herd numbers, likely causing archery seasons to be extended.
Post by: elk247 on April 13, 2013, 01:12:05 PM
I don't have a strong position, but I do a question: do lighted nocks improve the odds of harvesting an animal? If not, then why use them? If they do, archery harvest rates should improve, which in effect will likely cause archery seasons to be changed or shortened.I dont think it will change harvest rates. I also dont think alot of guys will use them. Thete wiil be a market with some bowhunters for sure but traditional guys and speed freeks and guys that pay aytention to thier foc will probably choose not to use them. Some guys just have the 'if it aint broke dont fix it mentality' hopefully Radsav will weigh in on your question. I always like reading his opinions.
Post by: bobcat on April 13, 2013, 01:18:50 PM
Post by: iRem on April 13, 2013, 01:19:34 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 13, 2013, 01:34:46 PM
So, how long before Pope & Young change their rules and start allowing them? :dunno:Probably never.
You can bait deer with sweet feed in your back yard as long as there is no fence. You can bait bear with donuts and chocolate brownies and shoot them from a modern engineered tree fort. You can ambush an antelope at the only man made water supply for 10 miles in 100 degree weather. You can shoot a dull broadhead from an arrow made of nanotubes and graphite fibers at 400 fps. You can find the distance to the animal with a laser rangefinder. But heaven forbit you use a battery to light up your arrow nock when you shoot - that's just not sportsman like!!!
Post by: huntnphool on April 13, 2013, 01:37:18 PM
:chuckle: Pretty ridiculous isn't it.So, how long before Pope & Young change their rules and start allowing them? :dunno:Probably never.
You can bait deer with sweet feed in your back yard as long as there is no fence. You can bait bear with donuts and chocolate brownies and shoot them from a modern engineered tree fort. You can shoot a dull broadhead from an arrow made of nanotubes and graphite fibers at 400 fps. You can find the distance to the animal with a laser rangefinder. But heaven forbit you use a battery to light you arrows nock up when you shoot!!!
How many states allow them now, 47? It won't be long before P&Y allow them.
Post by: Bob33 on April 13, 2013, 02:06:37 PM
I don't think people will use them with the idea that their chance of success will increase. They might use them to help in finding an arrow after shooting at an animal. I think most people will just use them for the "cool factor." It's really no different than using bright colors for fletching.I can see the cool factor, but finding arrows? Surely it's not the economic cost: how many does a hunter lose in a season?
Post by: RadSav on April 13, 2013, 02:15:54 PM
I don't think people will use them with the idea that their chance of success will increase. They might use them to help in finding an arrow after shooting at an animal. I think most people will just use them for the "cool factor." It's really no different than using bright colors for fletching.I can see the cool factor, but finding arrows? Surely it's not the economic cost: how many does a hunter lose in a season?
You would be surprised! We use to take a half dozen customers to Winthrop for the deer opener back in the 80's. Six guys would loose about 20 arrows in a weekend :o Shooting does can be pretty tough :chuckle:
Back then you were losing about $3.50 an arrow. Today with broadheads and a lighted nock I'd bet closer to $35.00 per arrow :yike:
Post by: Bob33 on April 13, 2013, 02:20:21 PM
Wow. Not a very good image. :peep:I don't think people will use them with the idea that their chance of success will increase. They might use them to help in finding an arrow after shooting at an animal. I think most people will just use them for the "cool factor." It's really no different than using bright colors for fletching.I can see the cool factor, but finding arrows? Surely it's not the economic cost: how many does a hunter lose in a season?
You would be surprised! We use to take a half dozen customers to Winthrop for the deer opener back in the 80's. Six guys would loose about 20 arrows in a weekend :o Shooting does can be pretty tough :chuckle:
Post by: RadSav on April 13, 2013, 02:27:24 PM
Wow. Not a very good image. :peep:I don't think people will use them with the idea that their chance of success will increase. They might use them to help in finding an arrow after shooting at an animal. I think most people will just use them for the "cool factor." It's really no different than using bright colors for fletching.I can see the cool factor, but finding arrows? Surely it's not the economic cost: how many does a hunter lose in a season?
You would be surprised! We use to take a half dozen customers to Winthrop for the deer opener back in the 80's. Six guys would loose about 20 arrows in a weekend :o Shooting does can be pretty tough :chuckle:
Yeah, it was shocking to me. Interesting thing back then was the guys that shot no sights had better results. I think today with faster bows and modern rangefinders it would be much better. Modern technology has definately improved much of the stick flinger image. If we could get guys to replace their broadhead blades with more fequency it could get even better. For the price of one single lighted nock you could replace the blades on three or four broadheads.
We were very strict about regular blade replacement back then. As a result the recovery rate of animals hit was better than the firearm guys I guided and hung around with. And we never shot at animals with rifles over 300 yards back then! There is a reason guides and outfitters request you bring 20-40 rounds of ammunition and/or a dozen hunting arrows plus a few target arrows. Humans get excited and miss. It happens. Can't apologies too much for that.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 13, 2013, 05:46:57 PM
I don't have a strong position, but I do a question: do lighted nocks improve the odds of harvesting an animal? If not, then why use them? If they do, archery harvest rates should improve, which in effect will likely cause archery seasons to be changed or shortened.
No, they do not improve your odds of harvesting an animal. Archery seasons can't get any shorter anyway. A 13 day early elk season is pitiful.
Post by: kglacken on April 13, 2013, 07:13:50 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 13, 2013, 07:44:58 PM
NO they dont increase your chances, but when broadheads are $10 a piece and arrow cost plus veins and wraps are all added up, you better believe ill be using them to help me find my arrows after the shot. I dont understand why you wouldnt want to find your arrow easier?
Hopefully the quality of lighted nocks will start to increase so they are more reliable. Otherwise you will also be losing 10-12 dollars in nock along with that $15 arrow and $10 dollar broadhead ;)
Post by: D-Rock425 on April 13, 2013, 07:48:32 PM
Post by: kglacken on April 13, 2013, 08:07:54 PM
Post by: sakoshooter on April 13, 2013, 08:11:46 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 13, 2013, 09:37:40 PM
Post by: Smossy on April 13, 2013, 10:07:30 PM
I haven't lost an arrow yet. I don't think I am just being lucky either. I have killed 7 big game animals and missed a few more than that in the early years but I have always found the arrow. Who is losing them?Everyone but you appearantly. I lose them even practicing and overstressing myself at 50-100 shots a day. I lose them in 3 inches of grass. Theyy seem to dissapear.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 13, 2013, 10:12:06 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 13, 2013, 10:23:48 PM
Post by: Smossy on April 13, 2013, 10:24:36 PM
I was talking about shots at big game animals not practice. C'mon...And by that Im saying if arrows can be lost durring practice where you know your path of flight like the back of your hand, in practice conditions I imagine it would be easy to lose arrows while your adrenalines cranked and your focused on the animal in a misc area/conditions with bushes, trees, and what have you beyond your target. :dunno: guess your a special breed.
Post by: jechicdr on April 13, 2013, 10:32:19 PM
I would think if it attracts more people to archery and bowhunting that it would be a good thing. We see from time to time how hunting numbers (by percentage in WA) are lower, so if the additional opportunity in gear selection encourages more to take up the sport that is a plus, right?
No...less people in archery is better for me.
I keep adding weight to my front to get better groups, so unlikely that I'll start adding weight to the back. I have lost many an arrow in the woods, usually on grouse but this last year, lost both my arrows that went through the elk. Money well spent. One problem with having the cut on contact and 150 grain broadheads is that they pass through an elk like butter. Before my Z7, before microdiameter carbon arrows and before switching to Muzzy Phantoms, had a cow elk turn just as I released and stuck a Thunderhead into the shoulder. Same shot with my new bow and setup would likely have been a kill shot. Any advantage in penetration and accuracy, I'll take.
On the other hand, I probably could have followed that wounded elk in the dark had I had a lighted nock.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 13, 2013, 10:53:52 PM
As far as losing arrows. You shoot enough critters you will lose some. From a tree stand if you get a pass threw chance are it will be sticking in the ground and easy to find. On the same level as a animal I have had more then a few pass threw arrows that hit bones and came out on weird angles. Some shot up at a angle some go right threw and still cant be found. Heck my buck from this last year was on the side of a canyon shot him a little high in the shoulder and it buzzed threw him and came out at almost a 45 right down the canyon. Could not believe it and looked and looked but it had a lot of speed still and with nothing but air and steep hill under it. Who knows where it ended up. I looked for it after shooting the buck and the next day with no luck.
Have to think about this, but I think I have lost 4 arrows on big game animals. That is out of 15 animals I have taken with a bow. A good few of them got multiple arrows as well. Always pay the insurance :tup:
Post by: RadSav on April 13, 2013, 11:37:08 PM
Either way was cool for me. I don't mind using them if they are legal but never felt like I had to have them.
From a tree stand if you get a pass threw chance are it will be sticking in the ground and easy to find
My thoughts about them exactly. I never lost sleep over not having them. But it is fun to watch my arrows again since my eyesight matured.
Good point on the treestand too. If you never get out of the tree you probably could go your whole bowhunting life without losing an arrow. Just look at arrow sales for the 11 western states compared to the rest of the country. We only have about 9% of the bowhunting population and yet our arrow sales are way above that relative 9%.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 13, 2013, 11:47:56 PM
Post by: huntnphool on April 14, 2013, 12:09:06 AM
That is very interesting for sure. :tup:Either way was cool for me. I don't mind using them if they are legal but never felt like I had to have them.
From a tree stand if you get a pass threw chance are it will be sticking in the ground and easy to find
My thoughts about them exactly. I never lost sleep over not having them. But it is fun to watch my arrows again since my eyesight matured.
Good point on the treestand too. If you never get out of the tree you probably could go your whole bowhunting life without losing an arrow. Just look at arrow sales for the 11 western states compared to the rest of the country. We only have about 9% of the bowhunting population and yet our arrow sales are way above that relative 9%.
I hope Ray and his buddy's don't lose too much sleep over this new rule. :ACRY:
Post by: RadSav on April 14, 2013, 12:29:51 AM
That subject was brought up at the ATA show with one of our best customers. An eastern big boy with sales figures that boggle the mind! He said in over 20 years he had sold about four two piece quivers, had just sold his first 7 pin sight to a guy heading to Idaho for an elk hunt, and he guessed he sells fewer than six 70# bows per year.
Fun Fact: Bear Archery did a "How many sight pins do you prefer?" poll not long ago. 356 archers cast a vote. Choices were 1,3,5,7 or more and slider-style. #1 answer was 3 pin! Votes for a single pin were more than 3 times that of the votes for 7 or more pins.
They also did a poll on "What would you give for a new Anarchy bow?" 4,424 votes were taken. #1 answer = My Girlfriend :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 14, 2013, 12:54:26 AM
That is pretty cool info Bryan. Never would have guessed the numbers to be that lop sided.
Post by: huntnphool on April 14, 2013, 12:57:29 AM
You should see the lopsided numbers with 70+# bows, two piece quivers and 7 pin sights!I don't doubt it. I ran into a guy a few years back in Montana that was hunting with a outfitter. We were chasing elk in the SW and he was shocked that my bow had 5 pins and went to 60. I told him I had friends that easily shoot out to 80 but 60 was my max, he said a long shot for him back home in Iowa was 30 yards and that was the furthest he was set up to shoot.
That subject was brought up at the ATA show with one of our best customers. An eastern big boy with sales figures that boggle the mind! He said in over 20 years he had sold about four two piece quivers, had just sold his first 7 pin sight to a guy heading to Idaho for an elk hunt, and he guessed he sells fewer than six 70# bows per year.
Fun Fact: Bear Archery did a "How many sight pins do you prefer?" poll not long ago. 356 archers cast a vote. Choices were 1,3,5,7 or more and slider-style. #1 answer was 3 pin! Votes for a single pin were more than 3 times that of the votes for 7 or more pins.
They also did a poll on "What would you give for a new Anarchy bow?" 4,424 votes were taken. #1 answer = My Girlfriend :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: RadSav on April 14, 2013, 02:11:26 AM
I don't doubt it. I ran into a guy a few years back in Montana that was hunting with a outfitter. We were chasing elk in the SW and he was shocked that my bow had 5 pins and went to 60. I told him I had friends that easily shoot out to 80 but 60 was my max, he said a long shot for him back home in Iowa was 30 yards and that was the furthest he was set up to shoot.
What was his third pin set for? Even with WA rated arrows and 62# I could not have a 10 yard pin or 10 and 20 would be just one big pin with my eyes. I set a 20 yard pin for turkey hunting yesterday. First time in about 10 years I've had a 20 yard pin. Even my sliders usually start at 30. I think if I was only shooting from a treestand and never took a shot over 35 yards I'd trash the three pin and go with just one. Sure would save on the target panic from having three pins so close together. Not sure I'd have much of a problem watching my plain ol' green nocked arrow all the way to the target either.
Post by: Kazekurt on April 14, 2013, 06:53:12 AM
Before arrows got so expensive I was a sucker for big blue grouse. That's where a lot of those Winthrop arrows were lost. I still have a hard time passing up a big blue even with high end arrows and prototype broadheads. ;) We also hunt blacktails around the blackberries in early season. After a pint of blood I'm about done looking for an arrow!I'm a sucker for grouse as well. Me and a buddy lost or broke over $100 worth of arrows in one day in Montana. We finally started putting a few cheap arrows in the quiver as we knew we couldn't resist the temptation:-)
Post by: dreamingbig on April 14, 2013, 08:29:25 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 15, 2013, 07:49:04 AM
Post by: huntnphool on April 15, 2013, 11:39:13 AM
Now if we can get mechanical broadheads through, that'll be about it! Good deal.Not really, don't forget about the "slippery slope" all the doomsday archers complained about, now we need to legalize lights, scopes, rangefinders etc.......and then shorten the seasons. ;)
Post by: coachcw on April 16, 2013, 08:11:24 PM
Post by: ghostshell on April 16, 2013, 10:06:25 PM
Post by: MDGrand on April 17, 2013, 01:24:31 PM
I WILL be using them and I thank the committee for no longer minimizing my freedom on something that is an "after the fact" event.
Long time coming and glad they are here.
Post by: huntnnw on April 17, 2013, 10:22:37 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 17, 2013, 11:55:23 PM
wow Rav the amount of info you have is nuts. I've sot luminocks at 305 fps out of my set up with 100 broadheads right at 420grains and 70 lbs with no accuarcy issues , my bow is in tune and with four fletchs flight is true . Ive never worried abot foc but do you think 125 grains bh would tighten up groups with the maxima 350's
More drag on the back end gives you similar results as weight on the front end - within reason. I've found my best results at 12% FOC, but I do experience more flexibility in going lighter FOC when using four fletch Blazers. Depending on your arrow length it may or may not be an issue. Most range shooting conditions are the very best we can expect in the woods. Just look at the Redding scores in years the weather is poor. Scores reflect the issues varying weather conditions have on target arrows, champion level shooters and the best of the best equipment. Now place a planning surface on the front end of those arrows in the same weather conditions. That's when higher than 10% FOC really comes into play.
Unlike some on here I myself can not shoot at a Randy Ulmer level of accuracy and consistency. So when the weather puts odds against me with wind, rain and heavy snow I prefer to shoot a setup that gives me every advantage I can get. Myself, along with most everyone else I hunt with, have found that short high profile fletching and 12-15% FOC has given us the best advantage in these conditions. If some local range master disagrees with me - so be it! But if one were to accept my advise I'd definitely try to stress a minimum FOC above 10%.
For you Coach - I can not give you much more advise than that without more details of the arrow/bow setup. But I can tell you that if your arrows spine can handle it stepping up to a 125 grain point when you are shooting 305fps now surely will not hurt a thing. Find a good windy day with rain and go shoot both head weights at your comfortable distance. You just might end up like me and start believing that there is really something magical about 12%! So much so in my mind that I make all my own brass or stainless inserts so no matter what arrow/head combination I choose to shoot my FOC is always at or above that magical 12%.
Post by: coachcw on April 18, 2013, 06:28:20 AM