Post by: Missing on October 16, 2008, 09:26:07 PM
Post by: Ray on October 16, 2008, 09:33:22 PM
The real problem I believe is that many hunters absolutely cannot resist the urge to mechanize or otherwise place electronics all over their weapons. That includes rangefinders. It's funny that people cling to a rangefinder for an arrow shot from my point of view. That's what I prefer to avoid and that is why I don't like the concept of compound bows. They have evolved too far away from the traditional aspects of archery that it might as well be a modern season weapon. I am sure some of you might get out the flame throwers on that one. :chuckle:
By the way I think this is the 3rd topic on this same subject on our forums in the past year and a half.
Post by: EastWaViking on October 16, 2008, 10:05:35 PM
I agree with the regulations which state there will be no electronic devices on your bow or arrow. Otherwise I believe you should be able to use that bow and arrow matchup in the modern firearm season only. They have to draw the line somewhere and as many advantages Luminocks have I believe outlawing them by the law restricting the electronic devices was exactly the right thing to do.
The real problem I believe is that many hunters absolutely cannot resist the urge to mechanize or otherwise place electronics all over their weapons. That includes rangefinders. It's funny that people cling to a rangefinder for an arrow shot from my point of view. That's what I prefer to avoid and that is why I don't like the concept of compound bows. They have evolved too far away from the traditional aspects of archery that it might as well be a modern season weapon. I am sure some of you might get out the flame throwers on that one. :chuckle:
By the way I think this is the 3rd topic on this same subject on our forums in the past year and a half.
I hear you, and can understand where you are coming from. But I love my compound bow!
The same thing with black powder rifles. Inline guns with a range of over 200 yards???
That's not what the season was meant for.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on October 17, 2008, 12:43:28 AM
I got an idea, why dont they let you by 1 tag, start with trad then compound then flintlock then percussion then in-line then open sight modern then scoped etc... :beatdeadhorse: I know what they are trying to do is just get our $, but you use what weapon you choose i'll use what weapon I choose. I may not like compounds anymore, but lets face it most guys that use them do not practise as much and need rangefinders and sights so they have confidence in their abilities. Guys that shoot long distances cant sneek up on animals, :lol4: we need to quit picking on each other we are ALL hunters. and if we cannot agree on our weapon choices at least let others use theirs (within the rules of fair chase as described by Boone and Crocket and Pope and Young, SCI etc.)I agree with the regulations which state there will be no electronic devices on your bow or arrow. Otherwise I believe you should be able to use that bow and arrow matchup in the modern firearm season only. They have to draw the line somewhere and as many advantages Luminocks have I believe outlawing them by the law restricting the electronic devices was exactly the right thing to do.II hear you, and can understand where you are coming from. But I love my compound bow!
The real problem I believe is that many hunters absolutely cannot resist the urge to mechanize or otherwise place electronics all over their weapons. That includes rangefinders. It's funny that people cling to a rangefinder for an arrow shot from my point of view. That's what I prefer to avoid and that is why I don't like the concept of compound bows. They have evolved too far away from the traditional aspects of archery that it might as well be a modern season weapon. I am sure some of you might get out the flame throwers on that one. :chuckle:
By the way I think this is the 3rd topic on this same subject on our forums in the past year and a half.
The same thing with black powder rifles. Inline guns with a range of over 200 yards???
That's not what the season was meant for.
Post by: bullcanyon on October 17, 2008, 04:35:22 AM
Lumenok being illegal. Now how does that do anything but help you find your animal quicker? Isn't that what we are after? It don't make the bow faster or more accurate.
Rangefinders make the difference from a good quality kill shot to a wounded lost animal. The older bows that a lot of guys still use make a big difference in drop if you misguess 5 yds. Some situations are hard to read. Cross little draws for example.
Quit hating ;)
Post by: boneaddict on October 17, 2008, 06:04:04 AM
Post by: Ray on October 17, 2008, 07:35:37 AM
Quote
Lumenok being illegal. Now how does that do anything but help you find your animal quicker? Isn't that what we are after? It don't make the bow faster or more accurate.
The concept is to give the animals some chance. If you want to shoot animals out of a barrel and give them no chance then keep embracing technology and changing the regulations. I believe that these sort of "little things" creeping into what is accepted will lead to the state becoming an all draw hunting activity for big game. Luminocks here, inline muzzleloaders, night sights because you know they really help at dusk and dawn.
You can call it hate in order to fuel an argument or point or view but I don't believe most people see it that way. The point is I believe that it is something beyond what was intended for the sport. I'd call it telling you how it is; not hatred.
I can tell you this... when the rules for Pope and Young entry were created they didn't intend for people to shoot bows with electronic devices on them or the arrows. I believe that they would frown upon people using that. Don't get me wrong. I believe you should be able to use crossbows and luminocks but only during the modern firearm season. I don't want to be associated with that type of archery hunting and I don't believe that I should have to share the woods with people who need electronic devices on their bows and arrows during an archery season. It's simply not archery to me. If you want to play video games buy a nintendo or something.
To me that would be where I draw the line and make a move to get organized to seperate the archery seasons.
Post by: demontang on October 17, 2008, 08:04:56 AM
I don't think that modern bows should have to hunt with mod rifle. Just because people dont have time to practice with a traditional bow doesn't mean they need to go out when every animal runs at the first hint of a person. You don't want to hunt with some one that wants to use a rangefinder to help get a clean kill, would you rather have more wounded or lost animals around :dunno:. There are people out there (like me) that cant shoot a traditional bow because of bad shoulders and etc.
If this really bugs that many people why don't we just ask for a traditional archery, mod archery, traditional muz, mod muz then maybe we can all get along :twocents:
Post by: Ray on October 17, 2008, 08:17:53 AM
It really bugs me that people need this level of technology for a 30 day hunt which was never intended to permit this. So yes. Make your move to get them "legal" and I'd surely make mine.
Post by: boneaddict on October 17, 2008, 08:31:46 AM
Post by: Broken Arrow on October 17, 2008, 08:55:01 AM
However with that said, I can honesty say in MHO, that they are not needed. I have harvests a ton of elk of and deer with out them, sure I have lost a couple of arrows here and there, but hence is the sport.
I would prefer that muzzle loader and archery, try to remain as primitive as possible. Open sights, judge your distance, etc.
The only analogies i can give with all of the new "technology" is this:
Range finders are great if you use them in the fashion as follows: use them to already confirm what you may have guessed, once you rely on them for your first choice, you have lost a skill of trying to judge distance.
Gps: use your compass and map and use the gps to confirm what you know. Once you rely on the gps only for navigation, you loose skills such as using the sun, terrain and common sense to navigate you through the woods.
Luminocks, use them at the range to confirm what you already know. Once you begin to rely on this technology to tell you where you hit, you lose the skills to determin how the animal reacted when hit, direction it may have went, etc.
This all reminds me of my cell phone. After i programed in all my speed Dial numbers I can't remember crap as to folks actual numbers......does this make sense? Technology is great, but it can dumb you down is my point.
Lastly, I think we need to sit back and relax a bit, especially with all the negativity that has been going on with different hunting methods, what group is better, ethical shots, etc. Bottom line is we all share the same love of hunting, and were all going to have opinions, mine is not right and yours is not wrong...its just how we see things. Lets support each other in our common goals, share insight as to why we think its good or not, learn from one antother and stop taking stuff personal. We are a dying breed...lets stand together, regardless of our preferences!
Post by: Ray on October 17, 2008, 09:03:53 AM
I don't hunt with a muzzleloader but I know people who have and most of them believe in the regulations which are in place. How would they feel if scopes, laser sights and such were permitted? Not too happy I am sure.
As far as modern rifle is concerned I think it is just fine and I also hunt with rifles. Adding night sights or electronics here will diminish the sporting aspect a lot and also have other side effects which are negative.
The archery topic is a discussion much the same as the other two seasons. We have to draw a line in the sand and say no at some point. Otherwise people will be running around with crossbows, laser sights, scopes, and in 20 years they'll make an arrow tip which has a GPS finder built into it. Those sort of technologies are hardly sporting IMHO. That is the entire point.
In addition to sporting I believe image is equally as important. I believe that the fact we are able to resist such technologies that our image is not tainted any further than it might have been. Lots of people get turned off by camo and gadgets who are not hunters. Even they know enough about the sport to identify what is not sporting sometimes.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on October 17, 2008, 09:15:04 AM
Post by: Ray on October 17, 2008, 09:39:41 AM
Post by: EastWaViking on October 17, 2008, 09:44:04 AM
I don't think that modern bows should have to hunt with mod rifle. Just because people dont have time to practice with a traditional bow doesn't mean they need to go out when every animal runs at the first hint of a person.
You shouldn't be hunting with any weapon if you don't have time to practice.
Post by: demontang on October 17, 2008, 12:17:46 PM
Post by: Ray on October 17, 2008, 12:55:38 PM
Post by: Colville on October 17, 2008, 01:47:08 PM
The real problem is about resource allocation. The trade off for using primitive archery and muzz can be longer/more seasons better season timing and less restrictive sex/point restrictions. They know very well that X % give or take within each weapon type will be successful. They know because of it how many hunter days by group will fit within their system. They can map out their units, the hunter pressure, weapon type etc and then allocate days afield by each providing for a lot of overall opportunity for each group.
But what happens when you turn a trad muzz into a scoped 1 moa rifle out to 250 yards? You have just tuned up the killing efficiency of that group dramatically. Maybe they aren't exactly MF rates, but no longer can you afford to give them the season timing/length that you did before. Now because they are more efficient it cascades and you have to reduce the opportunity of the other groups as well. Bottom line, there's X game that are harvestable within a system. They can't provide unlimited hunting equipment efficiency to each group and maintain the hunter days in the field. Something has to give.
So if you are for scoped Muzz or laser rangefinder equipped bows you'll have to know that you'll still be hunting but you'll pay for it in days, dates, sex/antler reqs. There's no free lunch.
Post by: Ray on October 17, 2008, 02:00:43 PM
Post by: Missing on October 17, 2008, 02:05:15 PM
I have been bow hunting for 25 years and we are still a fairly small group, I think if you shoot a stick from a string we should stick together :)
Post by: demontang on October 17, 2008, 02:19:10 PM
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on October 17, 2008, 05:42:04 PM
Post by: Ray on October 17, 2008, 05:56:07 PM
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on October 17, 2008, 06:07:05 PM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on October 17, 2008, 06:08:33 PM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on October 17, 2008, 06:11:20 PM
:yike:Wow that went a completely different direction than I thought it would!! I was just looking for an easier way to recover my $15 arrows not start archery war 3, kinda sorry I made the statement now.This is excactly what these forums are for
Post by: Ray on October 17, 2008, 06:11:52 PM
Keep the electronics off the hunting weapons. As much as you feel the urge to put it on there it isn't necessary and I believe people will be more likely to make poor shots in the evening kind of like a hail mary pass. Having 30 days for an early archery season for example will leave people ample time to get their animal. There is no rush to take a bad shot at darkness.
When hunting seasons and weaponry is set they use the regulations to limit harvests and give us long seasons. the more modernized the equipment becomes the shorter our seasons will be due to how success rates will rise. In addition to that I believe that electronics are a bad image problem for hunters in general. We do have an image problem and this only makes it worse that we need electronics to aid in our weaponry.
On top of that I don't want to be associated with people who want to call themselves archers using electronic devices on their bows and arrows. It is not even close to what I am doing in the woods. It is not sporting and it is not better. It is worse.
Post by: waoutdoorsman on October 17, 2008, 06:12:37 PM
I personally dont use them, but whenever i find myself chasing blacktails through the extremely thick and dense forests with canapoy covers (which can be very dark during broad daylight!) i often think of how great it would be great for locating the arrow which is the first step to locating the animal (confirms with blood what type of hit was made). I would never think of using one on the eastside of the state because its simply not needed over there.
I think anything that aids in locating a downed animal quicker is a good thing, its not like they make the hunter more successful or kill the animal better its just for the hunters convienence. I dont use them and never will but i wouldnt shun those who would.
Post by: Ray on October 17, 2008, 06:20:50 PM
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on October 17, 2008, 06:23:35 PM
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on October 17, 2008, 06:25:34 PM
Post by: Ray on October 17, 2008, 06:30:30 PM
I don't have pins on my bow. It is a piece of wood and however you want to paint it luminocks aint better it is worse because it compromises the integrity of the season by permitting electronics on your bow. Go play your video games if you have to have lights coming off your bow. I don't expect 20 something year olds to respect wisdom. I certainly didn't very often when I was your age. I knew everything about everything.
This is not an advantage but a gateway to more problems for archers who feel the need to put electronics on their gear. You may never get it and I can clearly see that. But the good thing is there are grumpy old fart elitists like me out there to hold the ground firm against these sort of poor tactics and "modernized" equipment.
Post by: waoutdoorsman on October 17, 2008, 06:49:40 PM
I don't expect 20 something year olds to respect wisdom. I certainly didn't very often when I was your age. I knew everything about everything.
Ouch!!! :chuckle: i was just stating my perspective on luminocks :dunno:, like i said i dont use them and never plan on it but i dont think that people who would are disgraceful hunters. I can see how technology taints the quality of the hunt and can sort of take the fun out of it (trail cams etc) in my perspective but thats just me i know others would feel differently, i just dont see how a lighted nock is different from a brightly painted (maybe even glow in the dark paint-dunno if they have those or not) nock it does the same thing except one has batteries.
"People lived without luminocks for many years. I believe the next generation can also learn to live without them and still harvest animals cleanly."
agreed
Post by: Ray on October 17, 2008, 06:51:14 PM
Post by: waoutdoorsman on October 17, 2008, 07:00:07 PM
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on October 17, 2008, 07:07:32 PM
Post by: Ray on October 17, 2008, 07:13:41 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 17, 2008, 07:22:55 PM
Quote
The thing everybody seems to be missing is the reg. is not about Luminoks. They are a great tool for being able to see your arrow in flight, impact point, and finding it after the shot. ALL good sound archery basics. The reg was written about mounted electronics ie. laser sights etc. Luminocks just happen to fit the criteria ( electronic) The reason for those regs. and the stark reality we must face today is whether we want bowhunting to be a primitive sport with long seasons and limited kills or whether we want just another way to efficiently dispatch game. The amount of individual effort put into becoming proficient at finding, stalking, ambushing, and generally taking game is the real key to hunting success. The use of technological gadgetry to decrease or eliminate this amount of effort is flat-out betrayal of the sport. Look how upset people get about steroids in professional sports. The problems developing are the results of an attitude rather than actions. This attitude is one that not only allows the prostitution of the sport but actually encourages it. It is an attitude that has come about because the bowhunters who really care about the sport are outnumbered by those who think success is measured by the amount of blood drawn or tags filled and are not too particular how it is done
NICELY PUT.
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on October 17, 2008, 07:26:06 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 17, 2008, 07:29:53 PM
Post by: Ray on October 17, 2008, 07:34:24 PM
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on October 17, 2008, 07:56:36 PM
Post by: bullcanyon on October 17, 2008, 08:09:34 PM
By the way. The lil guy winking at ya after my hatin comment was meant to clarify that I was kidding.
Post by: deaddog on October 22, 2008, 05:06:13 PM
I could not agree more. Its called an primitive season for a reason. I thought the idea was to have a more chalenging hunt. now i know some of you guys have said things like( let them indians) use the same weapons their forefathers did and I would not have a problem with them. Then you load up your $500.00 bow with your $100. a doz arrows, $500.00 range finder, $450.00 GPS ,$8000.00 ATV and go hunt the primitive season? All Im saying is lets look at the original intent of the season!
I don't think that modern bows should have to hunt with mod rifle. Just because people dont have time to practice with a traditional bow doesn't mean they need to go out when every animal runs at the first hint of a person.
You shouldn't be hunting with any weapon if you don't have time to practice.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on October 22, 2008, 05:23:03 PM
Regardless, once I shoot I will do what it takes to find my animal. I have lost wounded animals and helped to recover countless other animals from other hunters. If you hunt long enough it will happen to you. It left such a bad taste in my mouth I almost stopped hunting. If you don't get that feeling then I don't think you truly respect the animal enough to hunt it.
Post by: boneaddict on October 22, 2008, 05:29:10 PM
Post by: demontang on October 22, 2008, 07:42:40 PM
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on October 22, 2008, 09:59:26 PM
Post by: Ray on October 22, 2008, 10:04:16 PM
Post by: Ray on October 22, 2008, 10:39:48 PM
Shoot... My pistol doesn't shoot as far as some of these bows do. Yeah maybe we should just lump them in with the modern season.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on October 22, 2008, 10:44:34 PM
How far do we take it? Do we then outlaw compound bows? How about steel razor heads. Natives used rock arrowheads for thousands of years. They used them so we should be able to figure that out right? Come to think of it, we should outlaw pickup trucks while hunting because it aids us as well. The real "old timers" never used pickup trucks...
Obviously, there is a healthy balance. If the lighted nock helps me find it after a shot and I can then look at it and determine that I gut shot my animal, now I can back off and give an extra couple hours before tracking so that I don't push the animal and loose them. Or maybe I think I missed my animal and found it because the nock was lighted up...low and behold it has blood on it. Now I can put time in tracking the animal even if it is not leaving a blood trail. Once again, I'm all about finding game no matter what it takes.
Anyone remember the string gadgets attached to the bow and your arrow and when the arrow went through the animal you could follow the string to your downed animal? I have no problem with "gadgets" like that.
Post by: Ray on October 22, 2008, 10:51:05 PM
The moment they allow elecronics on an arrow the minute I will begin making the case for moving that into the modern season.
But remember.. Even in the modern season they don't allow electronics on the rifles. My guess is that it will not happen any time soon. So I am not too worried about this. But I think it speaks volumes about each individuals character and personality as well as approach.
I am all for baiting and hound hunting. But I am not for electronics on hunting weapons. Hound hunting and baiting have been around for a lot longer than these new ideas that want to creep into our sport. The people who fought for archery season and made the Pope and Young Club would be ashamed of those who would propose of using gadgets. Or maybe disgusted but don't take that personally unless you have to. They worked hard on image. This would erode that image.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on October 22, 2008, 11:01:38 PM
I think it speaks volumes about each individuals character and personality as well as approach.
I think it speaks volumes about an individuals character when they think that an individuals character and personality are somehow related to the type of archery equipment they prefer to use.
Post by: Ray on October 22, 2008, 11:40:20 PM
The good thing is a friend of mine was behind the work to put in the regulations that there should be no scopes or electronics on the bow or arrow. I'm very happy he was looking out for this sort of thing and understood archery hunting was generally supposed to be a primitive activity. A person their bow and arrow and their critter. Something which was supposed to distinguish themselves from the modern firearm hunter in a few ways. By different challenges and limitations which were inherent in the sport. Removing all the electronics and advancement was exactly what they wanted to do when the seasons were created and the bowhunters organizations like the Pope and Young club were created.
Post by: deaddog on October 23, 2008, 08:11:04 AM
Post by: demontang on October 23, 2008, 08:57:20 AM
I still dont think you should beable to use anything like a scope or laser on a bow. :twocents:
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on October 23, 2008, 09:46:10 AM
Post by: Ray on October 23, 2008, 09:51:28 AM
The fact that people cannot accept that tells me that those folks know little about why and how the archery community was organized and how older archers worked at distinguishing themselves with game departments and amongst other hunters. Establishing seasons and projecting a positive image as well as setting boundaries which are generally sound against the tests of time. I spoke to some of that above. It also tells me that these same people who would agitate that is an acceptable compromise don't really have the intention of maintaining the primitive part of archery. They want to advance it. Like I said before. The entire point of archery season is to remain somewhat primitive. Electronics on your arrow is not primitive. The fact that those folks cannot accept that their sport should be primitive tells me that they have either forgotten or lost focus on what was the intention of archery hunting. A distilled experience consisting of the archer, their bow and arrow and the animal. Not the archer, their electronic rangefinder, their lighted bow and arrow, and the animal. That is why advancement in technology is actually the low road.
Post by: Ray on October 23, 2008, 09:57:31 AM