Post by: villageidiot on August 01, 2013, 02:50:55 PM
The dog owner took pics. of the trap and is having trouble loading them on the computer since her camera is old and does not have a card. If she can get it done we will post the pics of the trap. The dog owner also has 3 small children and is now afraid to let them go outside for fear they will get caught in a govt. trap or since wolves are nearby might get attacked by the wolves. When they moved here there were no wolves. They did not move into wolf territory. The wolves moved into theirs. Does our govt. care?
Post by: Knocker of rocks on August 01, 2013, 03:02:53 PM
You see where this is going? You're critical of the WDFW, the local press, the local trapper, your friends camera, your friends children, government writ large, your friends tech savinesss, the local realtor and wolves
Post by: JLS on August 01, 2013, 03:14:19 PM
People are scared of wolves but the gov't shouldn't be trying to trap them? The dog was running loose and got caught and the gov't should pay the bill?
:rolleyes:
Post by: AspenBud on August 01, 2013, 03:16:08 PM
So the dog was unleashed and not under control of the owner, and not on the owners property?
Run, be free fluffy! :chuckle:
Post by: BigD on August 01, 2013, 03:33:11 PM
Post by: snowpack on August 01, 2013, 03:34:42 PM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on August 01, 2013, 03:39:36 PM
Hmmm....so optimal trapping locations are within 200 yards of inhabited residences. Sure got me, all this time I thought wolves were shy creatures that avoided humans and kept to themselves far in the backcountry. :rolleyes:
There is no shortage of guilt or stupidity in this occurrence. I'm just glad the dog is OK
Post by: mkcj on August 01, 2013, 04:18:14 PM
Post by: bearpaw on August 01, 2013, 04:19:57 PM
Actually an experienced trapper would not do that. I suspect the wolf trapper hired by WDFW is lacking practical trapping knowledge. If you remember, the WDFW was more concerned about a college degree than about hiring an experienced trapper.
You get what you ask for in this world. :twocents:
Post by: Knocker of rocks on August 01, 2013, 04:29:09 PM
I didn't know national forrest had leash laws! i guess you learn something everyday.
No such thing was asserted
So the dog was unleashed and not under control of the owner, and not on the owners property?
Post by: jackelope on August 01, 2013, 04:35:43 PM
Post by: JLS on August 01, 2013, 04:39:03 PM
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Pretty much.
If the trapper was trying to trap a wolf way back in the boonies, and there was one near populated areas then folks would be making fun of the trapper for not trapping where the wolves are.
Post by: Bob33 on August 01, 2013, 04:53:42 PM
There is no shortage of guilt or stupidity in this occurrence. I'm just glad the dog is OKI agree with both sentiments.
Post by: westside bull on August 01, 2013, 08:42:04 PM
Post by: wolfbait on August 01, 2013, 08:56:49 PM
WDFW can't have their lie of one maybe two wolves left in the Lookout pack blown up.
Post by: KFhunter on August 01, 2013, 10:50:12 PM
traps with teeth? This whole story wreaks of BS
edit
It's probably a local trapping stray dogs thats chasing deer :chuckle:
Post by: dreamunelk on August 01, 2013, 11:31:30 PM
Post by: Ned on August 01, 2013, 11:39:35 PM
Sounds like an anti-trapping wolf hugger
traps with teeth? This whole story wreaks of BS
edit
It's probably a local trapping stray dogs thats chasing deer :chuckle:
Well, the story was told by the villageidiot!!!
.
Post by: bearpaw on August 02, 2013, 04:10:18 AM
Sounds like an anti-trapping wolf hugger
traps with teeth? This whole story wreaks of BS
edit
It's probably a local trapping stray dogs thats chasing deer :chuckle:
I wondered about the comment about teeth on the trap, I didn't think WDFW used traps like that, shouldn't the traps be padded jaw traps? :dunno:
Post by: bearpaw on August 02, 2013, 04:17:30 AM
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Pretty much.
If the trapper was trying to trap a wolf way back in the boonies, and there was one near populated areas then folks would be making fun of the trapper for not trapping where the wolves are.
Just to clarify, if the story is true and this was a WDFW trap, you guys support the fact that it was placed within 200 yards of a residence having pets and young children without notifying them of the trap?
Wouldn't some simple contact with the residence have been in order? :dunno:
When I ran my trapline when legholds were legal, I never placed traps that close to anyone's home, that is just asking for trouble.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on August 02, 2013, 05:42:35 AM
Just to clarify, if the story is true and this was a WDFW trap, you guys support the fact that it was placed within 200 yards of a residence having pets and young children without notifying them of the trap?
Wouldn't some simple contact with the residence have been in order? :dunno:
When I ran my trapline when legholds were legal, I never placed traps that close to anyone's home, that is just asking for trouble.
If the story is broadly true as VI states:
1) Yes, the trapper or the WDFW should have done a better job of notifying the public. There may have been concern about unduly causing concern amoung the general population, but so what - that concern is not the concern of the WDFW.
2) Dogs should be under control. That means anything from being inside, to being on a leash, to being inside a fence, to staying on the owners property. I spent the second half of my childhood on seven acres with a lab. Our lab had the run of the property when we were home. I can count on one hand the number of times she left the actual legal property in her 12 year life. As described by the OP, these dogs were several hundred feet away from their home, on USFS land and not under control by the owner who at the time were inside their own home when the dog wandered into the trap. The dogs could raise heck in several more ways.
3) What is the proper type of trap there? Is the OP's story even credible?
Post by: jackelope on August 02, 2013, 07:51:59 AM
Sounds like an anti-trapping wolf hugger
traps with teeth? This whole story wreaks of BS
edit
It's probably a local trapping stray dogs thats chasing deer :chuckle:
I wondered about the comment about teeth on the trap, I didn't think WDFW used traps like that, shouldn't the traps be padded jaw traps? :dunno:
We've seen pictures of wolves in traps and they've always been padded. I think this story wreaks of BS. If it's true, it's weird that the trap was there without the family knowing, yes. However I don't hold the trapper responsible for catching a dog that shouldn't be running around unchecked either. What if a wolf got the dog...There would be an enormous uproar. We've all seen the posts where the wolves are coming right in to people's back yards, etc. Seems like the dog owners are pushing their luck anyway. If the traps are 200 yards from the house, somebody knows the wolves are spending time there too. If I knew there was wolves running around that close to my back yard/property/pasture/whatever, I'd keep a better check on my dogs.
:twocents:
Post by: CAMPMEAT on August 02, 2013, 08:02:33 AM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on August 02, 2013, 08:09:43 AM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on August 02, 2013, 08:17:11 AM
Oh I know that. It's just that the OP wanted the WDFW to pickup the bill for what the dogs did after they wandered off their property
I was being a smart guy....... :chuckle:
Post by: AspenBud on August 02, 2013, 08:22:14 AM
Dog control is different in Twisp than in the Puget Sound area........... :chuckle:
Does that make wolves the "dog catchers?" :chuckle:
Post by: wolfbait on August 02, 2013, 08:27:15 AM
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Pretty much.
If the trapper was trying to trap a wolf way back in the boonies, and there was one near populated areas then folks would be making fun of the trapper for not trapping where the wolves are.
Just to clarify, if the story is true and this was a WDFW trap, you guys support the fact that it was placed within 200 yards of a residence having pets and young children without notifying them of the trap?
Wouldn't some simple contact with the residence have been in order? :dunno:
When I ran my trapline when legholds were legal, I never placed traps that close to anyone's home, that is just asking for trouble.
The story is true, although there are a couple of changes, the traps did have rubber on the jaws, and it wasn't the WDFW trapper who released the second dog, it was the owners of the dog.
There were signs of wolf trapping on the county road, with the home owners house 200 hundred yards above the road. Unless the home owner drove past his drive way up the road he would not know WDFW had set traps so close to his house.
The "trapper" has a "degree in tracking" :chuckle: not trapping. Probably one of Fitkin's hippy friends from conservation NW.
I wonder if "the trapper" realizes by now that the wolves are not bedding down outside the house, perhaps next time he will go a bit further up the road and set his traps. Or maybe being a certified tracker, he set his traps at the first tracks he found :chuckle:
Spot On BP-"Wouldn't some simple contact with the residence have been in order? :dunno:
When I ran my trapline when legholds were legal, I never placed traps that close to anyone's home, that is just asking for trouble."--
Years ago I also trapped, and like BP, it was common knowledge trapping in the front yard or around homes would only foul your traps with dogs and cats and piss people off.
Sometimes the open stupidity of WDFW is hilarious.
Post by: Curly on August 02, 2013, 08:42:28 AM
I wonder if "the trapper" realizes by now that the wolves are not bedding down outside the house, perhaps next time he will go a bit further up the road and set his traps. Or maybe being a certified tracker, he set his traps at the first tracks he found :chuckle:
Now that IS funny! :chuckle: The funniest things have truth in them. And I think you are onto something. The trapper/tracker likely saw the dog tracks and mistakenly thought they were wolf tracks so he placed the trap there. He probably caught exactly what had been making the tracks.
Anyway, I am glad the dog is okay.
Post by: mountainman on August 02, 2013, 09:08:00 AM
Post by: Humptulips on August 02, 2013, 09:52:15 AM
I would point out though these are pretty big traps and the dog was not injured other then possibly a sore paw. Says a lot about just how safe and humane the traps are.
Legally the traps have to be padded. Teeth? I can relate to that because I've read reports wolf traps with teeth cause less damage to their feet then without. Teeth on traps are not sharp so they are not intended to penetrate but they do prevent mopvement of the foot in the trap which can cause abrasion.
Teeth on a trap would be legal under the RCWs but WDFW has WACs keeping trappers from using them. I'm not sure if they could write a permit for themselves to make it OK. Maybe?
Post by: villageidiot on August 02, 2013, 04:41:52 PM
Post by: mountainman on August 02, 2013, 05:13:36 PM
It's clear some of the posts on here are from city dwellers. When one lives in the country he lets his dogs run loose. Dogs go all over creation and come back to the house to check in. In the country we want our dogs to patrol all around the area to keep vermin away, this is their job folks. National Forest land is open to the public and dogs so he was not breaking any laws. If people are not allowed to let their dogs run loose in the National Forest then it's only fair the wolves should not be allowed to come onto private property, thus the home owner can exterminate the wolf if he's on private property. I suspect the trapper also saw dog tracks and thought they were wolf and caught the critter he was trying to get unknowing it was dogs.:tup:
Post by: Knocker of rocks on August 03, 2013, 09:28:28 AM
It's clear some of the posts on here are from city dwellers. When one lives in the country he lets his dogs run loose. Dogs go all over creation and come back to the house to check in. In the country we want our dogs to patrol all around the area to keep vermin away, this is their job folks. National Forest land is open to the public and dogs so he was not breaking any laws. If people are not allowed to let their dogs run loose in the National Forest then it's only fair the wolves should not be allowed to come onto private property, thus the home owner can exterminate the wolf if he's on private property. I suspect the trapper also saw dog tracks and thought they were wolf and caught the critter he was trying to get unknowing it was dogs.
But then you want WDFW to pick up the bill
Post by: villageidiot on August 03, 2013, 11:21:48 AM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on August 03, 2013, 11:24:06 AM
Post by: bearpaw on August 03, 2013, 11:31:24 AM
It's only fair Knocker. If WDFW penalizes us for harming their precious wolf then they should pay us when they or their precious vermin harms our animals. In fact if it was really equal the Govt. should pay the private land owner up to 100,000 for an animals killed by wolves. This is the fine for killing wolves. Very lopsided justice.
:yeah: This is very true, if a wolf is harmed it will cost someone thousands, yet when livestock or pets are killed many people say "tough luck".
This does not seem like fair justice at all. :twocents:
Post by: snowpack on August 03, 2013, 11:45:58 AM
Post by: bearpaw on August 03, 2013, 11:53:51 AM
Any trapper with any intelligence knows that you do not set traps within 200 yards of a residence unless you talk to the residents so that they can take precautions. This is nonsense to try and cover this obvious lack of trapping experience and proper diligence with comments that the dog shouldn't have strayed 200 yards from the home. Guard (livestock) dogs are advocated and commonly used for watching over ones livestock and residence.
Anyone who cannot see the mistake here is simply sticking their head in the sand to the fact that WDFW made a serious mistake, just my opinion. :twocents:
Post by: Bullkllr on August 03, 2013, 11:57:23 AM
It's clear some of the posts on here are from city dwellers. When one lives in the country he lets his dogs run loose. Dogs go all over creation and come back to the house to check in. In the country we want our dogs to patrol all around the area to keep vermin away, this is their job folks. National Forest land is open to the public and dogs so he was not breaking any laws. If people are not allowed to let their dogs run loose in the National Forest then it's only fair the wolves should not be allowed to come onto private property, thus the home owner can exterminate the wolf if he's on private property. I suspect the trapper also saw dog tracks and thought they were wolf and caught the critter he was trying to get unknowing it was dogs.Pretty much agreeing with everything you said, and that this happened is complete idiocy on the part of the trapper and WDFW,
Except, by the letter of the law, I believe dogs on Nat'l Forest are expected to be under owners' immediate control. Can't think of too many that would agree that free roaming dogs on Nat'l Forest is a good idea for many, many reasons.
Post by: bearpaw on August 03, 2013, 12:06:22 PM
If you place canine scent and lure 200 yards from a home, any dog I have ever owned would have been drawn to that scent. That dog was lured to that trap.
At the very least WDFW should issue an apology, offer to pay for costs incurred, and adopt a policy that when they plan to trap within ball throwing distance of someone's home, they will notify the homeowners.
Mistakes happen, but at least take appropriate actions to resolve mistakes and prevent them from happening again. :twocents:
Post by: snowpack on August 03, 2013, 12:10:58 PM
Post by: bearpaw on August 03, 2013, 12:18:36 PM
WDFW should man up to the mistake, make it right, and don't let it happen again. The most frustrating thing for me is to think that this may be another casualty in this whole wolf fiasco where WDFW will expect rural citizens to suffer the consequences and simply try to avoid dealing with the problem or hide it.
Post by: pnwmtnmn on August 03, 2013, 01:33:56 PM
Who was the trapper? WDFW or USFW? either way he showed bad judgment in the placement of the traps.
I've been trapping since 76 and never placed a coyote trap within 1/4 mile of a house.
Post by: luvtohnt on August 03, 2013, 01:46:50 PM
Brandon
Post by: wolfbait on August 03, 2013, 05:20:26 PM
Maybe this was just some hillbillies ill concieved plan to try to raise a stink about WDFW and their wolf trappers in that community? I think anyone with an education (required to get the job trapping for wdfw), who receives job duties from higher up, and has an ounce of common sense would not place traps that close to someone's home. Especially without numerous complaints of wolves in the area! Conspiracies work both ways! :chuckle:
Brandon
Conspiracies?
Here is a Pm from W-H after the USFWS and WDFW wolves killed the Golden Doe cow and calf.
In 2009 wolves were released in Alder cr. and the Golden Doe ranch WDFW had just bought, the first thing their wolves did was kill a cow and her new calf.
10-29-09
One of fitkins collage kids learning to be a biologist.
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twisp_river_slayer
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haha i never thought you were full of *censored*, just a little offended about the college kid statement. Its actually kinda funny though becuase i am a college kid working for the wdfw on the wolves but i think of myself as pretty knowledgable about the woods and especially the area. I think the mule deer herds are way down but the white tail are doing better and better. With the introduction of the wolves i think that is pushed the mule deer over the edge. A super predator along with decreased wintering grounds from building houses, the increased cougars and bears (since we cant run them with hounds), all the traffic, a hard winter about 3 years ago and just the regular pressure from hunting has really screwed the over.
ME,
Next time I come a cross some whitetail kill by the wolves I will get you some pics. Take a look into Idaho, and Montana, ask thoughs folks what the wolves do to the whitetail :) Doesn't matter what it is, the wolves will kill it, whats easy to take down will be first. In the end the Methow will be wiped clean, s.fitkin and defenders of wildlife will have their wish.
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do you run stock in the methow? just curious... Every time you write back to me wolfbait( you never did say your name) it seems like you are defending your opinion on wolves. I dont think you understand my side. I support just about everthing you have been saying. I'll be the first to tell you that scott makes a bunch of "questionable" descisions and everytime i had to deal with him i wanted to puke afterward. I was one of the "investigators" that you piss on but what the news articles never tell you is that he never listened to anything we siad. In fact i didnt work on the wolves for that long until he put me in charge of nusince trapping. The two poeple that took over was a hippie that wasnt even on the wdfw payroll and im pretty certain but not sure that he didnt even have a college education yet scott listened to him over anyone else. The other person was a girl not much older than me who couldnt tell the difference between a white tail or mule deer.All he cares about is his public image and preserving EVERYTHING. He doesnt even own a hunting or fishing lisense. If you are going to hold a uper level position in the WDFW it should be manditory!!! Im done with all the politics and the "conspircy" theories. I just hope you know what side im standing on.
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well there are some pretty good people working for the wdfw, its just to bad that scott has to ruin everyones reputation. Im prettty close with cal and i like him a lot and respect how he is trying to help the farmers out with all this bull *censored*. He was the first wdfw employee on scence to report on the golden doe cow and he right away assessed that it WAS wolves. As soon as scott heard about it he drove up there and said since there were other tracks that it couldnt of been his babies. SO cal put up a trail cam( his own personal camera that he bought and had nothing to do with the wdfw) over the carcass to see what was feeding on it. Well scott went up and took it town and took the card out of it and wouldnt give anything back to him I saw the pictures and they were all of wolves I mean come on, how stupid does he think people are...
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The trail cam was from a friend of Cal's, the only pictures that Fitkin didn't erase were the ones of the dead cow. I bet fitkin wishes he would have deleted them also, as it proves both the USFWS and WDFW lied about the Golden Doe cow, and they never mentioned the new calf in their rush to the news papers.
Post by: bearpaw on August 03, 2013, 07:36:24 PM
Maybe this was just some hillbillies ill concieved plan to try to raise a stink about WDFW and their wolf trappers in that community? I think anyone with an education (required to get the job trapping for wdfw), who receives job duties from higher up, and has an ounce of common sense would not place traps that close to someone's home. Especially without numerous complaints of wolves in the area! Conspiracies work both ways! :chuckle:
Brandon
Just curious, are you implying anyone without a college degree has no education? That anyone without a college degree is unfit to work for WDFW?
Post by: villageidiot on August 04, 2013, 08:50:08 AM
This was an excellent statement Knocker. If the govt. followed the same advice as you suggest we wouldn't have a problem. Keep the wolves under control. We have rules but they don't.
Post by: mountainman on August 04, 2013, 08:54:22 AM
Keep your animals under control on your property, and then you can quit the victimization act:yeah:
This was an excellent statement Knocker. If the govt. followed the same advice as you suggest we wouldn't have a problem. Keep the wolves under control. We have rules but they don't.
Post by: ribka on August 04, 2013, 10:06:28 AM
When I was a young lad my parents drilled into me that one needs a college education to get ahead and be learnified and intelligent. that was 30 years ago. Graduating from college I started to look down on those without a degree. of course when I grew up, matured and started experiencing the real world I came to realize that some of the least intelligent, least capable and truly bad people are highly degreed. Met my share of college grads over the years who are illiterate too. I respect people more now who are multi talented, self educated and know a trade, can work with mechanical items and fix things. The only degreed folks I admire are in the medical field and are involved in building things or creating things like engineers.
I can figure out what the problem is with the highly educated Beaurocrats in the WDFW. Just have to look eastward to ID and Montana at the moose, deer and elk pops for the results.
Maybe this was just some hillbillies ill concieved plan to try to raise a stink about WDFW and their wolf trappers in that community? I think anyone with an education (required to get the job trapping for wdfw), who receives job duties from higher up, and has an ounce of common sense would not place traps that close to someone's home. Especially without numerous complaints of wolves in the area! Conspiracies work both ways! :chuckle:
Brandon
Just curious, are you implying anyone without a college degree has no education? That anyone without a college degree is unfit to work for WDFW?
Post by: bearpaw on August 04, 2013, 10:39:54 AM
It appears that the whole degree requirement was a smokescreen by WDFW to keep most knowledgeable trappers from applying for the job, they didn't want trappers, they wanted puppets that will not question anything and it will appear to the public that WDFW has trappers on the ground trying to catch wolves. If the trappers don't catch any wolves it could appear there must not be many wolves.
It also appears this incident in Twisp must be being dealt with internally and quietly, hoping to hide embarrassment.
Post by: ribka on August 04, 2013, 10:55:05 AM
Then I moved out west and started hunting Idaho and Montana, BC and saw over the years first hand the wolves and the decimated deer elk and moose numbers. Saw dozens of partially eaten deer elk and moose over in Idaho.
I think you are correct.
The last thing WDFW wants is a qualified and experienced trapper. That would yield successful results.
I wasn't trying to lead the topic astray, maybe I misunderstood his comment, it just seemed like he was looking down his nose at anyone not possessing a degree and that only degreed persons are fit to work in wildlife. I happen to know there are WDFW employees who are not degreed and in jobs that would more often require a degree than a trapper position. This is a fact!
It appears that the whole degree requirement was a smokescreen by WDFW to keep most knowledgeable trappers from applying for the job, they didn't want trappers, they wanted puppets that will not question anything and it will appear to the public that WDFW has trappers on the ground trying to catch wolves. If the trappers don't catch any wolves it could appear there must not be many wolves.
It also appears this incident in Twisp must be being dealt with internally and quietly, hoping to hide embarrassment.
Post by: bearpaw on August 04, 2013, 11:22:52 AM
Post by: wolfbait on August 04, 2013, 01:52:18 PM
I wasn't trying to lead the topic astray, maybe I misunderstood his comment, it just seemed like he was looking down his nose at anyone not possessing a degree and that only degreed persons are fit to work in wildlife. I happen to know there are WDFW employees who are not degreed and in jobs that would more often require a degree than a trapper position. This is a fact!
It appears that the whole degree requirement was a smokescreen by WDFW to keep most knowledgeable trappers from applying for the job, they didn't want trappers, they wanted puppets that will not question anything and it will appear to the public that WDFW has trappers on the ground trying to catch wolves. If the trappers don't catch any wolves it could appear there must not be many wolves.
It also appears this incident in Twisp must be being dealt with internally and quietly, hoping to hide embarrassment.
"It also appears this incident in Twisp must be being dealt with internally and quietly, hoping to hide embarrassment." Too Late.
Actually I don't think WDF&Wolves really care what people think, look at their progress in confirming wolf packs, their bogas wolf plan, and their BS wolf count, and as many of you will soon realize their BS hunter success reports.. If ten hunters show up to hunt the Methow Valley and they kill five bucks WDFW will lope to the nearest paper and tout that deer hunting was a success for the amount of hunters that showed up. :bash:
Post by: AspenBud on August 04, 2013, 04:55:49 PM
Sorry to lead topic astray. But having lived the majority of my life in big cities thought those who haven't would like to know what the vast majority of the US population attitude toward hunting is. Those are the people who are controlling the intro of Canadian wolves into the US. To them a wolf is a beautiful wolf regardless of historical habitat or origin. I always hunted but when younger I thought wolves were wonderful animals. I would sometimes catch a glimpse of a wolf bow hunting in N Wisconsin. I used to be a wolf hugger one would say :chuckle:Then I moved to Russia and met a few Russian wildlife biologists who hated I mean really hated wolves. I could not understand their hatred having read Mowat's "Never Cry Wolf" as a teenager. They advised that there were hundreds of documented attacks by wolves on humans and showed me documents proving this. I always bought into the myth there has never been a recorded attack on humans by wolves. I also believed the whole wolves only target the sick diseased and weak myth too.
Then I moved out west and started hunting Idaho and Montana, BC and saw over the years first hand the wolves and the decimated deer elk and moose numbers. Saw dozens of partially eaten deer elk and moose over in Idaho.
I think you are correct.
The last thing WDFW wants is a qualified and experienced trapper. That would yield successful results.I wasn't trying to lead the topic astray, maybe I misunderstood his comment, it just seemed like he was looking down his nose at anyone not possessing a degree and that only degreed persons are fit to work in wildlife. I happen to know there are WDFW employees who are not degreed and in jobs that would more often require a degree than a trapper position. This is a fact!
It appears that the whole degree requirement was a smokescreen by WDFW to keep most knowledgeable trappers from applying for the job, they didn't want trappers, they wanted puppets that will not question anything and it will appear to the public that WDFW has trappers on the ground trying to catch wolves. If the trappers don't catch any wolves it could appear there must not be many wolves.
It also appears this incident in Twisp must be being dealt with internally and quietly, hoping to hide embarrassment.
The problem when comparing wolves in Russia versus what we have here is they are not the same.
Eurasian wolves look different, are built different, they tend to be more solitary than North American gray wolves, they are more adaptable to human encroachment, and they most definitely have a history of attacking people.
Comparing them to North American wolves is a little like comparing a cougar and a leopard.
Post by: ribka on August 04, 2013, 05:51:29 PM
I'll take the word of my Russian Bio friend Over the word of a sub division dweller who posts on the Internet :tup:
I still keep in contact with him and I know he spent many many Days in the field studying and documenting wolves and tigers in Russia over his thirty year career. He had a great respect for the tigers over there but no love for the wolves.
Sorry to lead topic astray. But having lived the majority of my life in big cities thought those who haven't would like to know what the vast majority of the US population attitude toward hunting is. Those are the people who are controlling the intro of Canadian wolves into the US. To them a wolf is a beautiful wolf regardless of historical habitat or origin. I always hunted but when younger I thought wolves were wonderful animals. I would sometimes catch a glimpse of a wolf bow hunting in N Wisconsin. I used to be a wolf hugger one would say :chuckle:Then I moved to Russia and met a few Russian wildlife biologists who hated I mean really hated wolves. I could not understand their hatred having read Mowat's "Never Cry Wolf" as a teenager. They advised that there were hundreds of documented attacks by wolves on humans and showed me documents proving this. I always bought into the myth there has never been a recorded attack on humans by wolves. I also believed the whole wolves only target the sick diseased and weak myth too.
Then I moved out west and started hunting Idaho and Montana, BC and saw over the years first hand the wolves and the decimated deer elk and moose numbers. Saw dozens of partially eaten deer elk and moose over in Idaho.
I think you are correct.
The last thing WDFW wants is a qualified and experienced trapper. That would yield successful results.I wasn't trying to lead the topic astray, maybe I misunderstood his comment, it just seemed like he was looking down his nose at anyone not possessing a degree and that only degreed persons are fit to work in wildlife. I happen to know there are WDFW employees who are not degreed and in jobs that would more often require a degree than a trapper position. This is a fact!
It appears that the whole degree requirement was a smokescreen by WDFW to keep most knowledgeable trappers from applying for the job, they didn't want trappers, they wanted puppets that will not question anything and it will appear to the public that WDFW has trappers on the ground trying to catch wolves. If the trappers don't catch any wolves it could appear there must not be many wolves.
It also appears this incident in Twisp must be being dealt with internally and quietly, hoping to hide embarrassment.
The problem when comparing wolves in Russia versus what we have here is they are not the same.
Eurasian wolves look different, are built different, they tend to be more solitary than North American gray wolves, they are more adaptable to human encroachment, and they most definitely have a history of attacking people.
Comparing them to North American wolves is a little like comparing a cougar and a leopard.
Post by: AspenBud on August 04, 2013, 09:24:24 PM
Another myth and it turns out that this species was not so solitary. maybe more solitary than the wolves in North America but not adverse to living and hunting in large packs.
That's the point.
They are not the same. The comparison only loosely works.
Post by: bearpaw on August 05, 2013, 12:20:46 AM
Post by: AspenBud on August 05, 2013, 07:21:19 AM
Sort of like the difference in subspecies here in North America until the USFWS conveniently classed them all the same everywhere they wanted to.
Highly likely.
Post by: Alchase on August 07, 2013, 01:26:44 PM
A couple hundred feet from someones house, not informing the home owners, sounds like the WDFW Degree'd Tracker
(Really, how does one get a degree in tracking?)
was using the dogs, livestock (kids) of the home owner as bait?
This "City Slicker" from Puyallup, slinks back into into the corner from wense he came
Post by: Northway on August 07, 2013, 02:13:52 PM
It happens every so often in the NRM states. Same story line: dog gets caught in wildlife services trap planted near home or subdivision, homeowner is angry they weren't notified, etc.
I don't know what protocol is specifically for Animal Damage & Control trappers or the WDFW, but unless it just isn't reported, these types of situations don't happen as often as you'd think they would.
Post by: AspenBud on August 08, 2013, 06:40:15 AM
Lots of people crying wolf these days. But until WDFW sees it for themselves, and not just Joe Bob's mystery kill that may or may not have been killed by them, they really have no idea how much of a problem it is. And let's face it, how many people would let them setup traps on their property? If people's paranoia and hard feelings about the state doesn't prevent it the thought of a trap on their land will.
Post by: wolfbait on August 08, 2013, 10:59:49 PM
You will notice that WDFW is starting to cycle though biologist, we seldom see Scott Fitkin's name on anything any more. Why is that some of you might ask, well it is because he hasn't told the thruth over and over again.
Go to the coffee hangouts where locals congregate and you will hear about where wolves are and the lies of WDFW. We are now looking at Idaho, MT and Wyoming and the same fraud and corruption at the end of a wolf introducton..
Dogs caught in wolf traps set on Forest Service land
by admin on Aug 7, 2013 • 12:00 pm No Comments
Carolyn Schmekel’s dog suffered a bruised leg. Photo courtesy of Andy Floyd
Animals slightly injured; traps have since been removed
By Ann McCreary
Two dogs in the Poorman Creek area were inadvertently caught last week in leg hold traps set for wolves, until the owner of one of the dogs found them and set them free.
The traps were located on U.S. Forest Service land near Second Mile Road at the end of Poorman Creek Road west of Twisp. They were set by Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) officials in an ongoing effort to capture and place radio collars on Lookout Pack wolves, said Scott Becker, WDFW wolf biologist.
Becker said this week the traps have been removed from that area and wildlife officials are “re-evaluating some of the trapping protocols right now. We don’t want another incident like this to happen in the future.”
Wildlife officials have confirmed that at least three pups were born this spring to a pair of wolves that have been monitored for more than a year in the Lookout Pack territory, Becker said. Efforts to collar at least one of the adults will continue, he said.
The incident involving the dogs occurred last Thursday (Aug. 1). Andy Floyd, who lives on Second Mile Road, said his dog and a neighbor’s dog followed his wife on a morning run on nearby Forest Service land, but did not return to the house with her. Concerned, Floyd began looking around the neighborhood for his dog.
Floyd said a neighbor heard a dog “barking and yipping just over his fence on the Forest Service land not 100-300 feet away.” Floyd investigated and found the neighbor’s dog with a front paw caught in a trap by the side of a Forest Service road.
“I tried getting the trap off but could not do it by myself. I ended up getting my neighbor to … use most of our strength to get the trap off,” Floyd said. In the process, Floyd said, the dog nipped his wrist. He returned the dog to its owners, Carolyn and Glenn Schmekel, who took the dog to a veterinarian.
Residents’ concerns
Floyd later found his dog caught in another trap further along the road. He said the dog had been missing for about two hours. With the help of someone camping nearby, he was able to open the trap and release his dog, which bit Floyd’s hand and slightly broke the skin. Floyd said his dog has been limping, but is recovering.
Carolyn Schmekel said she was upset that the traps were placed near the Second Mile homes without notifying area residents, and called Becker last week at WDFW to express her concerns. Fish and Wildlife officials had placed a sign on a tree in the vicinity of the traps warning about bringing dogs in the area, but did not speak to residents bordering the Forest Service land.
“This is an extension of our back yard,” Schmekel said in an interview this week. “If you’re going to have traps this close to people’s homes that have dogs and kids, we need to be informed of it.”
Floyd expressed similar concerns. “The lack of communication really frustrated me. I understand it’s good to tag the wolves because of potential problems … but what really bugged me is the traps were so close to the houses and they didn’t tell us.” He said he did not notice the sign about traps until after the dogs had gotten caught.
Schmekel said her dog was probably trapped for about 30 minutes. It had a bruised front leg but was otherwise unhurt, although the incident resulted in a $66 vet bill.
Signs posted
Becker said wildlife officials sometimes talk personally with people living in the vicinity of traps, but didn’t realize that residents in the Second Mile Road area had “free ranging” dogs when they set several traps along the nearby Forest Service road. “We ended up pulling those traps out of there,” he said.
“Most traps are located away from any residences at this point,” Becker said. “No matter where we trap, because we trap on public land, there is potential” for dogs to inadvertently get caught. “Wherever we put traps we put signs at the beginning or end of the road to warn people there are traps for wildlife. We try to do everything we can with signs.”
Traps are often placed along roads on public lands because “wolves are just like people – they use roads and trails to do most of their traveling,” Becker said. Signs placed in the vicinity of traps warn about bringing dogs into the area, describe how to open the trap, and advise covering the dog’s head with a jacket or something similar to avoid being bitten while releasing the animal.
Becker said the leg hold traps are baited with scent to attract wolves, and are outfitted with a transmitter to alert wildlife officials when they are tripped.The traps are located in places that allow the trapped animal to move into the shade, and have offset jaws covered with rubber to minimize injury to the animal.
A WDFW biologist checks the traps every morning, and during the evening as well during warm weather, Becker said. The biologist was making the rounds of a dozen traps in the Lookout pack territory last Thursday morning when the dogs got trapped, and arrived while Floyd was still looking for his dog.
When a wolf is captured, wildlife officials tranquilize it, attach a radio collar and ear tags, and take measurements, Becker said.
Still elusive
Despite ongoing efforts, the Lookout Pack wolves continue to elude capture. “They’ve been trapped a lot and are pretty smart,” Becker said.
Wildlife officials have captured and collared 12 wolves in Washington this year, and now have a total of 16 or 17 collared animals in the state, Becker said. WDFW has confirmed 10 packs of wolves, and Becker said most packs, with the exception of the Lookout Pack, have a collared animal.
“The Lookout Pack has been the hardest pack to catch up with for a number of years,” he said.
Wildlife officials confirmed the existence of the Lookout Pack in 2008, making it the first known gray wolf pack in Washington in more than 70 years. The pack included as many as 10 animals, including adults and pups, in the summer of 2008.
Biologists captured and radio-collared the breeding male and female in July 2008. Genetic analysis of the wolves indicated they were descended from wolves in British Columbia or Alberta, or from reintroduced populations in Idaho and Yellowstone.
Despite protection as an endangered species under state and federal law, poaching reduced the pack from 10 animals to only the breeding pair and one surviving yearling by 2009. The female produced a litter of at least four pups in 2009 and all seven animals survived into the spring of 2010, according to WDFW.
The alpha female disappeared in May 2010, less than three weeks after she was believed to have given birth to a litter. The alpha male was last seen in June 2011. Two Twisp men subsequently pleaded guilty to federal and state wildlife violations in connection with the wolf poaching.
For the past two years, wildlife officials have been monitoring two wolves in the Lookout Pack territory. Becker said collaring the wolves helps wildlife officials monitor and manage them. http://methowvalleynews.com/2013/08/07/dogs-caught-in-wolf-traps-set-on-forest-service-land/ (http://methowvalleynews.com/2013/08/07/dogs-caught-in-wolf-traps-set-on-forest-service-land/)
"Becker said wildlife officials sometimes talk personally with people living in the vicinity of traps, but didn’t realize that residents in the Second Mile Road area had “free ranging” dogs when they set several traps along the nearby Forest Service road. “We ended up pulling those traps out of there,” he said."
Free Ranging Dogs? "Becker said the leg hold traps are baited with scent to attract wolves" I wonder if it ever occured to Becker what DNA really means? Any dog passing by will get curious and investigate the alluring smells, setting traps next to the county road around homes might not be such a great idea? According to Becker, everyone must have their dogs on a leash or it is considered "free ranging"? I kind of think Becker still needs to work on country life, where we let our dogs run free, after all hasn't that always been a part of living in the country.
This is a whole new high in stupidity for WDFW and Becker answers just put them deeper in the no brain department. Maybe Becker needs to be coached a little longer on how to deceive the public. Or maybe he has been coached to much by the now silent/conservation NW/ WDFW/ Defenders of Wildlife wolf biologist.
"For the past two years, wildlife officials have been monitoring two wolves in the Lookout Pack territory. Becker said collaring the wolves helps wildlife officials monitor and manage them."
But yet Becker fails to mention the other wolf packs in the Methow valley. Here's a short list:
The War cr wolf pack -9 in 2010, the "lookout pack" was seen the same day across from carlton.
McFarland and Gold Cr Wolf Pack- 8
Goat Peak wolf Pack known since 2004 -5 seen up the Rattlesnake below deadhorse point
Cow Cr wolf pack with 6 in 2011
Lime cr wolf pack which could be part of the War cr and Wolf cr combine 11 wolves
Little wolf cr could be part of the lime cr wolf pack, 15 wolves seen just past the Weeman bridge in 2011, 11 wolves seen last winter 2012
Bear cr-cougar lake 6 wolves seen in Dec. 2012
Boulder cr 7 wolves seen this spring
Junior cr- 4 wolves seen this summer
Loup Loup 7 wolves caught on a trail cam in June 2013
South Summit 3 wolves, BensonCr, 6 wolves Texas cr, 2 wolves
Sun Mt lodge-4 wolves were seen early this spring, and since then they have been seeing wolves here and there around Perrygin Lk. and into wolf cr.
If you haven't gotten anything out of this article, you can always revert back to the fact that every wolf in the Okanogan is part of the Lookout pack, just ask Becker.
If you read this Becker, you might want to think about your future as one of WDFW wolf bio's, like Fitkin you won't be very well liked by the public if you don't tell the truth. One more thing the "wolf fame" is starting to wear very thin in E. Washington and the lies of the USFWS and state game agencies like IDFG and WDFW are catching up to them. I know you probably can't get a job in accounting, because you can't count, perhaps you could get a job shoveling chit, as that is what the outfit you work for does mostly, from one pile to the next.