Post by: TVHunts on August 04, 2013, 07:24:32 PM
Below are 4 bullets we recovered out of moose kills from 3 different rifles. The Barnes and the Partition were both fired from a lasered 214 yds simultaneously (that was kinda fun) and the Ultra Mag was just under 100 yds.
From left to right
(2) Barnes 210 gr. fired from a .338WM (both weigh a fuzz over 210grs with the added flesh)
Nosler Partition -250 gr. from 340 Wthby ( weighs 167 grs.)
Swift A frame - 250 gr. from .338 Ultra Mag ( weighs 189 grs
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1135.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm624%2Ftvhunts%2F300%2520WM%2FBullets.jpg&hash=68f1da42e94507dc48d6928f3ff7f9e1b36a04c5) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/tvhunts/media/300%20WM/Bullets.jpg.html)
Post by: Dan-o on August 04, 2013, 07:34:56 PM
(I have a lot of faith in Nosler Partitions, but no experience with other Premium bullets).
Post by: Bob33 on August 04, 2013, 07:38:50 PM
I'm a fan of Barnes bullets, by the way.
Post by: huntnphool on August 04, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
Post by: bobcat on August 04, 2013, 07:57:37 PM
I'm a partition fan, where has the Barnes bashing been going on? :dunno:
Biggerhammer was bashing the Barnes bullets he was selling in the classifieds.
Post by: Curly on August 04, 2013, 07:58:37 PM
I happen to hate Remington Core-lokt bullets, but I understand that a lot of people swear by them. I like Barnes TSX but I do understand those that hate them too. :twocents:
edit: I was typing my response while Bobcat had already posted. :P
Post by: 3nails on August 04, 2013, 08:01:20 PM
I'm a partition fan, where has the Barnes bashing been going on? :dunno:I've heard a bit on here and other places as well. They are what I shoot out of my 300 wsm and perform great but I've heard not so well at a slower pace like from a 270 or 06. But :dunno:
Post by: TVHunts on August 04, 2013, 08:09:17 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on August 04, 2013, 08:09:47 PM
Post by: jay.sharkbait on August 04, 2013, 08:14:58 PM
I tried them in the .338 ultra and I just couldn't get them to shoot as well as the accubonds or sierras.
I have them loaded for the 25-06 and need to shoot them this week. If they shoot well i'll switch from the .270 to the 25-06 for rest of bear season.
I like the concept and the terminal performance can be impressive for sure.
Post by: wadu1 on August 04, 2013, 08:20:27 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 04, 2013, 08:23:03 PM
Post by: TVHunts on August 04, 2013, 08:30:50 PM
[/quote]
Now thats funny!
Post by: couesbitten on August 04, 2013, 09:08:19 PM
Post by: royalbull on August 04, 2013, 09:59:31 PM
Post by: lokidog on August 04, 2013, 11:10:34 PM
Post by: Curly on August 05, 2013, 06:59:23 AM
Eventually, when WA becomes more like CA, we will probably be required to use lead free bullets. That will suck, but at least I'll already be used to loading TSX. I do plan on giving the Nosler E-tip a try one of these days when powder becomes available again. :P
Post by: mountainman on August 05, 2013, 07:13:27 AM
Post by: Skillet on August 05, 2013, 07:22:19 AM
Post by: bobcat on August 05, 2013, 07:26:53 AM
Not saying I agree or disagree. Although I do like copper bullets and the fact that they don't disintegrate inside animals and leave "shrapnel" throughout the meat.
The only thing that prevents me from using copper bullets 100% of the time is the cost. Heck I've got hundreds of lead bullets in .243, .277, and .30 caliber, enough to last me the rest of my lifetime, as long as I can still get the primers and powder to load them up.
Post by: Curly on August 05, 2013, 08:40:55 AM
Any reliable way to tell if you have the older TSX's or not when they're loaded?
The older Barnes that I mentioned were the bullets they made before they started making TSX. With the TSX they added the grooves, so if you have Barnes that don't have grooves then I think there is a higher likelihood of the bullet potentially not expanding. :twocents:
I think it is possible that Barnes gets the occasional bullet or batch with a flaw that makes it so they don't open up in that "X" shape that they are supposed to. Every once in a while you will hear stories of a TSX not expanding correctly (like the case in H2oHunter's bear)..............it seems to be a rare occurrence though. :twocents:
Post by: h20hunter on August 05, 2013, 08:47:05 AM
Post by: Curly on August 05, 2013, 08:59:32 AM
I think the typicall reason for lack of expansion is not enough velocity. I have only shot two critters with Barnes bullets....a whitetail doe that has a massive hole through and through.....the bear you mentioned was hit very hard and died in seconds but less expansion than is textbook. I will still load and shoot Barnes when the gun likes to shoot them.
Just seems like it should have expanded much more for such a close shot.......... I would think the velocity would have been over 2,500 fps when the bullet hit the bear (I don't what MV it was, but I would bet you had at least 2,600 fps I would think). Wasn't the shot around 30 yards? Those are the kind of shots I'd want a Barnes; a lead bullet would be likely to blow up at that close range.
I've never recovered a TSX, but I know they expanded greatly because of the huge holes they have made. Even the entrance holes I've seen have been fairly large which makes me think my bullets expanded instantly, then turned the insides into goo as they exited. I'm a believer in Barnes. 20 years ago, I was not sold on them because I'd seen a few pencil thru (even on an elk at 30 yards out of a .264 Win Mag).
Post by: h20hunter on August 05, 2013, 09:01:40 AM
Curly...............yes the shot was close and I'm sure my velocity was indeed in that range.
Fist the chart and then my reovered bullet.
Post by: Wacenturion on August 05, 2013, 12:04:31 PM
http://www.soarraptors.org/Documents/CopperBulletStudy.pdf (http://www.soarraptors.org/Documents/CopperBulletStudy.pdf)
Post by: snowpack on August 05, 2013, 12:12:59 PM
Older Barnes bullets were prone to pencil thru without expanding. I've heard a few stories of the TSX bullets doing that too (H20Hunter's bear for example), but mostly it seems that the TSX and TTSX bullets perform as advertised.I read the other day that the military is planning to 'go greener' by switching the 7.62s to lead free (mostly copper). A few other companies (like Hornady) are selling all coppers now to compete with Barnes.
Eventually, when WA becomes more like CA, we will probably be required to use lead free bullets. That will suck, but at least I'll already be used to loading TSX. I do plan on giving the Nosler E-tip a try one of these days when powder becomes available again. :P
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 05, 2013, 12:49:17 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 05, 2013, 01:32:39 PM
Also them stating that lead poisons the meat has been untrue in my experience also. My gf worked for an environmental lab that tests for heavy metals and other things in soils and water. I cut a piece of bloodshot meat from right next to the exit wound of a deer that was shot with a ballistic tip and she took to work and tested.... no sign at all of heavy metals in that piece of bloodshot meat.
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 05, 2013, 01:51:26 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 05, 2013, 01:56:57 PM
Half of most everything now days is nothing but a sales pitch but people buy it whole sale.😮so true hammer!
I tried Barnes and had issues from fouling to lack of accuracy and nonexpansion (I think, shot a bull behind the shoulder and later found a 7mm hole through and through after my cousin killed the bull) . they drop Considerably more at longer distance than otherbullets of equal weight. Ill stick with my lead environment killer bullets the greenies haven't won yet!
Post by: bearpaw on August 05, 2013, 02:04:06 PM
But both elk were killed. :dunno:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 05, 2013, 02:07:32 PM
Post by: whacker1 on August 05, 2013, 02:13:51 PM
Some of the things in that study are untrue... I have experienced increased copper fouling with Barnes bullet's over nosler accubond.
Also them stating that lead poisons the meat has been untrue in my experience also. My gf worked for an environmental lab that tests for heavy metals and other things in soils and water. I cut a piece of bloodshot meat from right next to the exit wound of a deer that was shot with a ballistic tip and she took to work and tested.... no sign at all of heavy metals in that piece of bloodshot meat.
three comments:
First, yes, some untrue statements in the study: One can use lighter weight bullets which will have less recoil in any given rifle. i find that the increased length of the copper bullets to attain equal weight to the lead involves additional barrel friction and increased recoil. a 180 Nosler E-tip kicks like a 220 grain lead bullet in my .300 RUM. If I drop down to a 165 E tip it still kicks more or equal to a 180 Accubond
Second comment: I find the Barnes to be more finicky when hand loading. I tried Barnes TTSX and TSX in both my .270 and .300 RUM and I couldn't get either to group as well as Accubond and Berger VLD's.
Third comment: I have been very impressed by the Barnes Expander MZ muzzleloader bullets.
Post by: bearpaw on August 05, 2013, 02:16:55 PM
We had some bad experiences with bergers at close range, but after learning more about their bullets we are still going to try them for some long range shooting.
Sometimes you just have to find the sweet spots. :dunno:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 05, 2013, 02:23:34 PM
I've had some pretty serious fowling from Corelocks too, so it's not just Barnes that leave a little copper. :dunno:yep. I have killed 3 animals inside 100 yards with my bergers too. 2 were drop right there and the other ran 30-50 yards. They started at 210-215 grains and the one I recovered weighed 87 grains. There isn't a bullet in existance that will preform great at close range high velocity impacts as well as long range lower velocity impacts...
We had some bad experiences with bergers at close range, but after learning more about their bullets we are still going to try them for some long range shooting.
Sometimes you just have to find the sweet spots. :dunno:
Post by: mountainman on August 05, 2013, 03:38:53 PM
Post by: bearpaw on August 05, 2013, 03:45:43 PM
I've had some pretty serious fowling from Corelocks too, so it's not just Barnes that leave a little copper. :dunno:yep. I have killed 3 animals inside 100 yards with my bergers too. 2 were drop right there and the other ran 30-50 yards. They started at 210-215 grains and the one I recovered weighed 87 grains. There isn't a bullet in existance that will preform great at close range high velocity impacts as well as long range lower velocity impacts...
We had some bad experiences with bergers at close range, but after learning more about their bullets we are still going to try them for some long range shooting.
Sometimes you just have to find the sweet spots. :dunno:
I've got some TTSX Long Range that we are going to try. Also trying to get those new Accubond Long range to try. :dunno:
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 05, 2013, 04:40:53 PM
Never lost an animal shot with a barnes. Both Triple shock and the tipped triple's. And not one needed a second shot. Coyotes to Zebras, they have never failed me! In the field results speak more then online reviews, proof is in the pudding, so to speak..some that bash the bullet may not have much real killing time in on animals...?
Laughable! So if you don't slum Barnes, you haven't killed animals. I needed a good laugh! Thanks Dewey.
Post by: mountainman on August 05, 2013, 04:58:34 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 05, 2013, 05:08:41 PM
Never lost an animal shot with a barnes. Both Triple shock and the tipped triple's. And not one needed a second shot. Coyotes to Zebras, they have never failed me! In the field results speak more then online reviews, proof is in the pudding, so to speak..some that bash the bullet may not have much real killing time in on animals...?
:stup: pretty awesome! got me... never actually killed a critter in my life... :bash:
now where can I get me some barnes? and my experiences posted above aren't real I guess...
Post by: shrek on August 05, 2013, 05:22:31 PM
Post by: mountainman on August 05, 2013, 05:33:36 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 05, 2013, 05:34:22 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2FIMG952012101495195149_zpsd7d8f3f1.jpg&hash=2c5475e19ea59af5cf7de5e5575ad3a2d22ef94e)
Post by: shrek on August 05, 2013, 05:38:05 PM
Post by: snowpack on August 05, 2013, 05:48:16 PM
Post by: Rob on August 05, 2013, 05:48:28 PM
Killed many animals with them and found them to be highly effective.
Not my all time favorite bullet (Cutting Edge is my favorite), but they have always done me right.
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 05, 2013, 06:08:13 PM
I shoot the Non Con BBW#13 CEB's in my 450/.375 Ultra Mag.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2Fphoto1-12.jpg&hash=f53212c1b7bfcfa57bb0a5d094b4f65d81f67650)
Post by: JLS on August 05, 2013, 06:17:59 PM
Post by: mountainman on August 05, 2013, 06:32:40 PM
I've watched a fair number of elk fail (as in die) as a result of a Barnes bullet.:tup:
one shot with a 375 HH barnes TSX dropped my cape buffalo. It walked 20 yards after being shot and was dead as a doornail. penetrated about 4 feet and was found in one of the stomach's later. 300 grain bullet and when I weighed it after the shot it came in at 299.6 grains... I'd call that 100% retention.:tup:
Killed many animals with them and found them to be highly effective.
Not my all time favorite bullet (Cutting Edge is my favorite), but they have always done me right.
Post by: jay.sharkbait on August 05, 2013, 06:40:46 PM
So lets talk accuracy..... I would be interested in honest feedback and lets talk MOA or measured groups and known distance.
You cannot use the term "cloverleaf" "lights out" "dimesize" or any of that nonsense
Post by: mountainman on August 05, 2013, 06:48:31 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 05, 2013, 06:58:02 PM
But as always the debate will migrate to the skills of the guy pulling the trigger.👍
Post by: jay.sharkbait on August 05, 2013, 07:15:42 PM
I tried them in my 338 and I couldn't get them to shoot. Also, the Barnes claimed BC was off by about 10%+.
Post by: TVHunts on August 05, 2013, 07:25:25 PM
But as always the debate will migrate to the skills of the guy pulling the trigger.
[/quote]
:yeah:
Ok suck me in....The targets I still have and can measure, 338 WM .541" 210 gr TSX , 280 AI .433" 140 gr TTSX (but the 280 AI has shot Bergers at .311) I've watched alot of animals drop from Bergers in the videos but have never used one myself and not sure if I ever will. The Bergers sure do fly nice though.
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 05, 2013, 07:32:17 PM
All that was left of 285gr, perfection! The load shoots 1/2" at 300 yards if I do my part.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2Fphoto1_zps1efefb2c.jpg&hash=50d38453204a68c2d834b168db8b1e65e27a5fe0)
Bergers shoot just a tight.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2Fphoto2_zps45eab9ce.jpg&hash=2646238b9b4d145aa26beb5ec3a4c5887616cd38)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2Fphoto_zpsc25e8489.jpg&hash=b7d1495335ca5b25ef385e2d454d845170e342a5)
Post by: Dan-o on August 05, 2013, 07:34:44 PM
Alright
So lets talk accuracy..... I would be interested in honest feedback and lets talk MOA or measured groups and known distance.
You cannot use the term "cloverleaf" "lights out" "dimesize" or any of that nonsense
I have shot some stupendously average groups with all kinds of bullets. Honest.
Post by: jay.sharkbait on August 05, 2013, 07:47:04 PM
Killed the crap out of a Mulie just shy of 400 yards with a .338 Edge and a 285gr Hornady match. Bullet fragmented big time just after impact. Totally destroying all his lungs, dropped him in his shadow. Only found the base under the hide on the off side. Beautiful bullet performance, screw exits. The Mulie took every bit of energy that load had to offer, just the way I like it.
All that was left of 285gr, perfection! The load shoots 1/2" at 300 yards if I do my part.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2Fphoto1_zps1efefb2c.jpg&hash=50d38453204a68c2d834b168db8b1e65e27a5fe0)
Bergers shoot just a tight.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2Fphoto2_zps45eab9ce.jpg&hash=2646238b9b4d145aa26beb5ec3a4c5887616cd38)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2Fphoto_zpsc25e8489.jpg&hash=b7d1495335ca5b25ef385e2d454d845170e342a5)
Is that one of Shawn's guns?
Post by: Crunchy on August 05, 2013, 07:58:27 PM
Post by: mountainman on August 05, 2013, 08:12:55 PM
These Branes bullets recovered from a mule deer failed because? I guess the excuse was, that they were not tipped. Amazing how many years Barnes sold non tipped bullets. With a complete track record of complete pass through and by the photo one can see why. Poor bullet performance went unnoticed due to the fact the failed bullet, practically a FMJ wizzed through the animal and out into nowhere.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2FIMG952012101495195149_zpsd7d8f3f1.jpg&hash=2c5475e19ea59af5cf7de5e5575ad3a2d22ef94e)
Interesting? You say they failed, you say they whizzed out to no- where? But you killed the deer? AND recovered the bullet? Did said deer die? Or was the bullet dug out of the dirt? Yes, not much expansion in the photo..curious if this was shot from a small caliber? Ts's as we all know need to be pushed with some velocity to be effective..lower velocity, obviously, cup bullets work best.
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 05, 2013, 08:31:01 PM
Post by: mountainman on August 05, 2013, 08:48:08 PM
But as always the debate will migrate to the skills of the guy pulling the trigger.
:yeah:
Ok suck me in....The targets I still have and can measure, 338 WM .541" 210 gr TSX , 280 AI .433" 140 gr TTSX (but the 280 AI has shot Bergers at .311) I've watched alot of
animals drop from Bergers in the videos but have never used one myself and not sure if I ever will. The Bergers sure do fly nice though.
[/quote]
That's killing size groups there,! They aren't a match bullet and not meant to be, but meant to kill, and kill they do! Save The competion side of it to the match kings
and the Bergers!
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 05, 2013, 08:54:24 PM
Post by: Rob on August 05, 2013, 09:05:54 PM
Here is the data I collected. No clover leafs, dime sized groups or even bug holes, but the barnes shot just as well or better than most of the other bullets I shot. The data represents ~270 bullets fired.
That gun really hated the CEB bullets! That is unusual for me as usually moving to CEB's improved the group size by 10-25%.
Post by: mountainman on August 05, 2013, 09:14:02 PM
I have a rifle that has never shot well. Rem 700 in 300 WM. (Finally had enough and just got it back last week from Benchmark with a new barrel and rechambered for 7mm RM and it is now shooting 6/10's inch groups! but that is a different story...)
Here is the data I collected. No clover leafs, dime sized groups or even bug holes, but the barnes shot just as well or better than most of the other bullets I shot. The data represents ~270 bullets fired.
That gun really hated the CEB bullets! That is unusual for me as usually moving to CEB's improved the group size by 10-25%.
Real world stuff there Rob! Yes, curios also as to why the CEB's didn't shoot better? Each gun can be a story to itself I guess...yes, they can be pretty accurate! Thanks for posting!
Post by: jay.sharkbait on August 05, 2013, 09:20:13 PM
I have a rifle that has never shot well. Rem 700 in 300 WM. (Finally had enough and just got it back last week from Benchmark with a new barrel and rechambered for 7mm RM and it is now shooting 6/10's inch groups! but that is a different story...)
Here is the data I collected. No clover leafs, dime sized groups or even bug holes, but the barnes shot just as well or better than most of the other bullets I shot. The data represents ~270 bullets fired.
That gun really hated the CEB bullets! That is unusual for me as usually moving to CEB's improved the group size by 10-25%.
Real world stuff there Rob! Yes, curios also as to why the CEB's didn't shoot better? Each gun can be a story to itself I guess...yes, they can be pretty accurate! Thanks for posting!
The rifle liked the heavier bullets.......
Post by: Rob on August 05, 2013, 09:32:39 PM
I am not a match shooter - I would not even go so far to say I am a good shot – I might go as far as to say I am average. But I do have 5 years of data collected from my personal shooting. This has load/shot/group size data from 4,352 shots that I have taken in 973 sets - average shots per group is 4.6.
My assessment is:
-Every gun has a bullet type and shape that it likes.
-Every bullet has a powder and OAL that it likes better than others.
-Finding the right bullet/powder/OAL combo that works best is a journey.
To say that brand A bullet sucks, or brand B bullet is fantastic is somewhat myopic in my opinion (no offense to the zealots on the board! - Zealots are good, they prompt great conversations!)
Accuracy for match purposes is different than accuracy for hunting purposes. When hunting I am less interested in accuracy (within reason of course) than I am terminal performance. Now don't jump to the assumption that I don't understand that you have to hit your target for terminal performance to count... I am aware of this! My point is, If bullet A is giving me a .75 inch group, and bullet B gives me a 1.1 inch group, but bullet B has better terminal performance, I am going to pick bullet B every single time! I am far more interested in Sectional Density, momentum, energy and terminal performance than I am a quarter inch of accuracy at 100 yards from a bench.
Bergers are fantastic for some guns. Barnes are fantastic for others. CEB’s ROCK on terminals and in most guns I shoot they are excellent (but relatively poor BC’s).
Post by: Rob on August 05, 2013, 09:35:32 PM
Post by: mountainman on August 05, 2013, 09:50:18 PM
sheesh. I never totaled it up before... 4.3K shots at a range in 5 years... I need to get out in the field more!if only you could get paid for shooting so much! Thanks for an informative write up Rob!
Post by: TVHunts on August 05, 2013, 09:53:17 PM
my two cents (which is probably worthless....)
I am not a match shooter - I would not even go so far to say I am a good shot – I might go as far as to say I am average. But I do have 5 years of data collected from my personal shooting. This has load/shot/group size data from 4,352 shots that I have taken in 973 sets - average shots per group is 4.6.
4352 in 5 yrs, I am SO jealous! Great comments
Post by: jay.sharkbait on August 05, 2013, 09:54:45 PM
Post by: Jim the Plumber on August 05, 2013, 10:12:56 PM
338 Lapua sitting next to a 50BMG in a box of .510 Barnes bullets.
Post by: mountainman on August 06, 2013, 06:33:17 PM
Post by: mountainman on August 06, 2013, 08:41:43 PM
Post by: Jim the Plumber on August 06, 2013, 10:53:02 PM
Still have a pile of .50 bullets from you. Guess it may be time to build another? Can't have all those bullets and casings laying around that need loaded and shot, huh?Well, that or if they need a good home, I'm always looking for more 50BMG components.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on August 06, 2013, 10:55:35 PM
Post by: Jim the Plumber on August 07, 2013, 06:53:04 AM
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/694907/barnes-triple-shock-x-bullets-50-bmg-510-diameter-647-grain-hollow-point-boat-tail-lead-free-box-of-20 (http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/694907/barnes-triple-shock-x-bullets-50-bmg-510-diameter-647-grain-hollow-point-boat-tail-lead-free-box-of-20)
Post by: Curly on August 07, 2013, 08:06:11 AM
Post by: Curly on August 07, 2013, 08:53:34 AM
I did find where they used to make 180 gr .277 bullets, so I was remembering correctly.
Quote
Mac-
Barnes isn't making them anymore. They don't offer any original style bullets between the 115 grain .243" and the .348" size. You might have to cruise the gun shows and keep an eye on ebay for these, or have someone with a bullet swager make some similar bullets for you.
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/medium-bore-rifles/where-to-find-180-grain-barnes-original-277/ (http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/medium-bore-rifles/where-to-find-180-grain-barnes-original-277/)
(If anybody cares)........just some history............. :twocents: