Post by: kerrdog on August 25, 2013, 08:56:36 AM
Even different brands of rifles must be closer tolerances than other variables. They are mostly 50 caliber bores with a 1/28 or 1/48 twist. Barrel length (and therefore, muzzle velocity) seems like it would be the main difference, which has less to do with accuracy on a 100 yard range.
Are we really talking about working up a load that the shooter "believes in ?".....rather than what the rifle likes? I'm sure many of you will disagree, based on your individual experiences (also called anecdotal evidence) which is completely unscientific, and based on individual human perception at a single point in time, rather than actual repeatable numbers and statistical analysis.
So tell me I'm full of crap, or shut up about "working up a load." Just put in 100 or 120 grains of powder, your favorite bullet.......and shoot more.
Post by: jay.sharkbait on August 25, 2013, 09:21:16 AM
It's fairly common to read that "each rifle is different and prefers a specific load" to function best. In the days of handmade rifles which were individually built, this would seem to be obvious. It's harder for me to imagine that two modern inline rifles are different enough to actually fire differently given identical loads. The tolerances in manufacturing are very precise.....at least more precise than other variables, i.e, the variation in power charge measured by volume, the air temperature, the barrel temperature, the moisture level of the powder, bore fouling, the shooter....etc....etc....
Even different brands of rifles must be closer tolerances than other variables. They are mostly 50 caliber bores with a 1/28 or 1/48 twist. Barrel length (and therefore, muzzle velocity) seems like it would be the main difference, which has less to do with accuracy on a 100 yard range.
Are we really talking about working up a load that the shooter "believes in ?".....rather than what the rifle likes? I'm sure many of you will disagree, based on your individual experiences (also called anecdotal evidence) which is completely unscientific, and based on individual human perception at a single point in time, rather than actual repeatable numbers and statistical analysis.
So tell me I'm full of crap, or shut up about "working up a load." Just put in 100 or 120 grains of powder, your favorite bullet.......and shoot more.
You are full of crap
Post by: barracuda163 on August 25, 2013, 09:59:46 AM
Post by: kerrdog on August 25, 2013, 12:44:32 PM
You don't think there are any less variables than building an accurate hand load for a rifle or tuning a bow/ arrow combination? You are full of crap.
HuH? I think I see the point you are trying to make, but your mis-worded statement falls under the "straw man" fallacy.
from wikipedia:
A straw man or straw person is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[3][4] This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged, emotional issues.
I'm curious, what is your 'unique' load for your 'unique' rifle. And would you bet that 10 grains of powder (measured by volume, not weight)....more or less... would change your Point of Impact more than all the other confounding variables combined?
My logic is based on the notions of:
Confounding Variables
Anecdotal Evidence
Significant Figures
And since you brought it up, Logical Fallacy. (google them if you don't know what they mean.)
By the way, I'm not sure that I'm right about any of this. :chuckle: "Don't believe everything you think."
Post by: jay.sharkbait on August 25, 2013, 12:57:18 PM
Post by: barracuda163 on August 25, 2013, 02:46:37 PM
Post by: kerrdog on August 25, 2013, 03:12:15 PM
Post by: barracuda163 on August 25, 2013, 05:07:38 PM
Post by: kerrdog on August 25, 2013, 06:58:43 PM
trade secrets man. Go shoot your own rifle a hundred times and figure out a load for it. Two identical rifles will not have same POI or group at the same target using the same load on the same day, its just a known fact. My two identical knight bighorn .50 rifles differ slightly at 100 yds using the same load. I'm not saying I have to have two seperate setups for the rifles but even at 100yds, the difference is minimal as far as a smokepole goes with open sights. and I'm confident in either rifle. 150g pyrodex pellets, 240g hornady xtp
You figure it will take me 99 times to try 3 pellets instead of 2? Or should I just start and finish with the max recommended load and skip the 100 trips. :chuckle:
Post by: Sabotloader on August 25, 2013, 07:41:44 PM
trade secrets man. Go shoot your own rifle a hundred times and figure out a load for it. Two identical rifles will not have same POI or group at the same target using the same load on the same day, its just a known fact. My two identical knight bighorn .50 rifles differ slightly at 100 yds using the same load. I'm not saying I have to have two seperate setups for the rifles but even at 100yds, the difference is minimal as far as a smokepole goes with open sights. and I'm confident in either rifle. 150g pyrodex pellets, 240g hornady xtp
You figure it will take me 99 times to try 3 pellets instead of 2? Or should I just start and finish with the max recommended load and skip the 100 trips. :chuckle:
In my case... there really is not much to work up... I shoot either 110 grains of T7-3f or 120 grains of T7-3f depending on the bullet I choose to use and the animal I am hunting. The bullet really doesn't matter that much for shooting paper or clay pigeons. At the range I shoot a simple plain Sierra .458-300 grain HP. It prints about the same pattern as the bullets I shoot for hunting. Either a .458-275 grain Bloodline or .458-300 grain Bloodline and or a .458-305gr Lehigh.
This a 300 grain Bloodline DOA and the 275 looks just like only a bit shorter...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FLehigh300DOA.jpg&hash=745411efe692901bdf43e61ca24d9c314dafcd5b) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Lehigh300DOA.jpg.html)
This is the 305 - which I call the buffalo bullet because of it's success harvesting buffalo with a 45-70 rifle
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2F458-305.jpg&hash=ed23af00ee24ea555cd266b7bac7ff6ebbfd8e22) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/458-305.jpg.html)
So for me not much really to work up... I can stay at 2 1/2" all day @ 100 yards with a scope. With open sights it does expand a little but I can shoot clay pigeons expecting 1 shot 1 bird.
Post by: Rooster1981 on August 25, 2013, 08:23:32 PM
My rifle is can be very temperamental. I shoot a 54 cal hawkens and i just doesn't like shooting Hornady great plains no matter what the powder charge is. I'm all over the paper. But I drives tacks with 430 grn maxi balls. So that's what I shoot, even though I have to buy the slugs online. Since T/C stopped making the 54. cal line of maxi balls I had to find a differant supplier.
Post by: Sabotloader on August 25, 2013, 08:34:28 PM
My rifle is can be very temperamental. I shoot a 54 cal hawkens and i just doesn't like shooting Hornady great plains no matter what the powder charge is. I'm all over the paper. But I drives tacks with 430 grn maxi balls. So that's what I shoot, even though I have to buy the slugs online. Since T/C stopped making the 54. cal line of maxi balls I had to find a differant supplier.
I am wondering, how much longer is the is the great plains bullet you are shooting vs. the 430 Maxi. With a 1/48 twist in your Hawkins you might be able to stabilize a bullet much longer than the 430... Just throwing that thought out...
Post by: Duffer on August 25, 2013, 10:34:25 PM
It's fairly common to read that "each rifle is different and prefers a specific load" to function best. In the days of handmade rifles which were individually built, this would seem to be obvious. It's harder for me to imagine that two modern inline rifles are different enough to actually fire differently given identical loads. The tolerances in manufacturing are very precise.....at least more precise than other variables, i.e, the variation in power charge measured by volume, the air temperature, the barrel temperature, the moisture level of the powder, bore fouling, the shooter....etc....etc....
Even different brands of rifles must be closer tolerances than other variables. They are mostly 50 caliber bores with a 1/28 or 1/48 twist. Barrel length (and therefore, muzzle velocity) seems like it would be the main difference, which has less to do with accuracy on a 100 yard range........
I'm not giving you any crap, but I think this is part of what needs to get sorted out. From what I understand, there is no 'standard' for a 50cal bore diameter. Those who are way more experienced than me on muzzleloaders know like it's chiseled in stone somewhere that certain brands are 'tight' while other brands are 'loose'. Muzzleloader manufacturing just does not seem to get the tight tolerance machining that modern rifles do.
What I do know from personal experience is this: I poured my own 440gr 500S&W conicals, lubed and sized them all to .501 and pushed them with 80gr of RS FFg thru both my new Extreme and my used Bighorn. Same everything except for the actual rifles. The Bighorn threw them wonderfully. The Extreme....well...... I gave up for now even getting them on paper reliably at 50yds. These monsters can do a lot of damage going thru an animal SIDEWAYS, but the accuracy is less than desired! :yike:
Post by: kerrdog on August 26, 2013, 07:20:48 AM
It's fairly common to read that "each rifle is different and prefers a specific load" to function best. In the days of handmade rifles which were individually built, this would seem to be obvious. It's harder for me to imagine that two modern inline rifles are different enough to actually fire differently given identical loads. The tolerances in manufacturing are very precise.....at least more precise than other variables, i.e, the variation in power charge measured by volume, the air temperature, the barrel temperature, the moisture level of the powder, bore fouling, the shooter....etc....etc....
Even different brands of rifles must be closer tolerances than other variables. They are mostly 50 caliber bores with a 1/28 or 1/48 twist. Barrel length (and therefore, muzzle velocity) seems like it would be the main difference, which has less to do with accuracy on a 100 yard range........
I'm not giving you any crap, but I think this is part of what needs to get sorted out. From what I understand, there is no 'standard' for a 50cal bore diameter. Those who are way more experienced than me on muzzleloaders know like it's chiseled in stone somewhere that certain brands are 'tight' while other brands are 'loose'. Muzzleloader manufacturing just does not seem to get the tight tolerance machining that modern rifles do.
What I do know from personal experience is this: I poured my own 440gr 500S&W conicals, lubed and sized them all to .501 and pushed them with 80gr of RS FFg thru both my new Extreme and my used Bighorn. Same everything except for the actual rifles. The Bighorn threw them wonderfully. The Extreme....well...... I gave up for now even getting them on paper reliably at 50yds. These monsters can do a lot of damage going thru an animal SIDEWAYS, but the accuracy is less than desired! :yike:
Yes, that's a good point. By "Extreme" do you mean "Disk Extreme?" If so, I would really think that the two green mountain barrels would be really close in bore diameter and rifling. But yes, I've ready many times that the bore diameter does vary. Thanks.
Post by: grundy53 on August 26, 2013, 08:06:23 AM
A lot if people shoot loose powder. Not pellets.trade secrets man. Go shoot your own rifle a hundred times and figure out a load for it. Two identical rifles will not have same POI or group at the same target using the same load on the same day, its just a known fact. My two identical knight bighorn .50 rifles differ slightly at 100 yds using the same load. I'm not saying I have to have two seperate setups for the rifles but even at 100yds, the difference is minimal as far as a smokepole goes with open sights. and I'm confident in either rifle. 150g pyrodex pellets, 240g hornady xtp
You figure it will take me 99 times to try 3 pellets instead of 2? Or should I just start and finish with the max recommended load and skip the 100 trips. :chuckle:
By the way you are full of carp.:)):))
sent from my typewriter
Post by: Duffer on August 26, 2013, 11:54:02 PM
It's fairly common to read that "each rifle is different and prefers a specific load" to function best. In the days of handmade rifles which were individually built, this would seem to be obvious. It's harder for me to imagine that two modern inline rifles are different enough to actually fire differently given identical loads. The tolerances in manufacturing are very precise.....at least more precise than other variables, i.e, the variation in power charge measured by volume, the air temperature, the barrel temperature, the moisture level of the powder, bore fouling, the shooter....etc....etc....
Even different brands of rifles must be closer tolerances than other variables. They are mostly 50 caliber bores with a 1/28 or 1/48 twist. Barrel length (and therefore, muzzle velocity) seems like it would be the main difference, which has less to do with accuracy on a 100 yard range........
I'm not giving you any crap, but I think this is part of what needs to get sorted out. From what I understand, there is no 'standard' for a 50cal bore diameter. Those who are way more experienced than me on muzzleloaders know like it's chiseled in stone somewhere that certain brands are 'tight' while other brands are 'loose'. Muzzleloader manufacturing just does not seem to get the tight tolerance machining that modern rifles do.
What I do know from personal experience is this: I poured my own 440gr 500S&W conicals, lubed and sized them all to .501 and pushed them with 80gr of RS FFg thru both my new Extreme and my used Bighorn. Same everything except for the actual rifles. The Bighorn threw them wonderfully. The Extreme....well...... I gave up for now even getting them on paper reliably at 50yds. These monsters can do a lot of damage going thru an animal SIDEWAYS, but the accuracy is less than desired! :yike:
Yes, that's a good point. By "Extreme" do you mean "Disk Extreme?" If so, I would really think that the two green mountain barrels would be really close in bore diameter and rifling. But yes, I've ready many times that the bore diameter does vary. Thanks.
Yes. One would think that both Knights, with the same high quality barrel mfg, would shoot the same.... but they dont. :dunno: It's the only personal experience I have so it's not worth much but it is true. Maybe its not manufacturer variance. Maybe something about being used? The barrel on the Bighorn is more 'broke in'?
Your mileage may vary :chuckle:
Post by: Rooster1981 on August 27, 2013, 06:35:36 AM
My rifle is can be very temperamental. I shoot a 54 cal hawkens and i just doesn't like shooting Hornady great plains no matter what the powder charge is. I'm all over the paper. But I drives tacks with 430 grn maxi balls. So that's what I shoot, even though I have to buy the slugs online. Since T/C stopped making the 54. cal line of maxi balls I had to find a differant supplier.
I am wondering, how much longer is the is the great plains bullet you are shooting vs. the 430 Maxi. With a 1/48 twist in your Hawkins you might be able to stabilize a bullet much longer than the 430... Just throwing that thought out...
I'll look into that :tup:
Post by: Exechobo on August 27, 2013, 07:34:21 PM
In learned in my Model 700 7mm Mag that changing tension on the receiver screws, with different inch pounds on the two screws made a lot of difference. Just an example of the variables other than ammo that count.
Post by: Soady on September 14, 2013, 12:12:33 AM
It's fairly common to read that "each rifle is different and prefers a specific load" to function best. In the days of handmade rifles which were individually built, this would seem to be obvious. It's harder for me to imagine that two modern inline rifles are different enough to actually fire differently given identical loads. The tolerances in manufacturing are very precise.....at least more precise than other variables, i.e, the variation in power charge measured by volume, the air temperature, the barrel temperature, the moisture level of the powder, bore fouling, the shooter....etc....etc....
Even different brands of rifles must be closer tolerances than other variables. They are mostly 50 caliber bores with a 1/28 or 1/48 twist. Barrel length (and therefore, muzzle velocity) seems like it would be the main difference, which has less to do with accuracy on a 100 yard range.
Are we really talking about working up a load that the shooter "believes in ?".....rather than what the rifle likes? I'm sure many of you will disagree, based on your individual experiences (also called anecdotal evidence) which is completely unscientific, and based on individual human perception at a single point in time, rather than actual repeatable numbers and statistical analysis.
So tell me I'm full of crap, or shut up about "working up a load." Just put in 100 or 120 grains of powder, your favorite bullet.......and shoot more.
You ever follow NASCAR"
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-racing/nascar/nascar-basics/nascar-engines1.htm] [url]http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-racing/nascar/nascar-basics/nascar-engines1.htm (http://[url) [/url]
Equate the art of Muzzloading to NASCAR: each muzzle loader will tweak his or her choice own of weapon and contributing components to achieve the best possible combinations to give the best possible performance available and then build from there until satisfied that the said combination is the best in the field, although always striving to go one better than the last result, always attempting to lead the field with even better results than the last. Always under the scrutiny of the ever watchful eye of the so called official/ who is wiling to tear down the vehicle.
As you quote your term 'anecdotal evidence" as stated seems lacking in definition according to Wiki:
Anecdotal evidence is often unscientific or pseudoscientific because various forms of cognitive bias may affect the collection or presentation of evidence. For instance, someone who claims to have had an encounter with a supernatural being or alien may present a very vivid story, but this is not falsifiable. This phenomenon can also happen to large groups of people through subjective validation.
Anecdotal evidence is also frequently misinterpreted via the availability heuristic, which leads to an overestimation of prevalence. Where a cause can be easily linked to an effect, people overestimate the likelihood of the cause having that effect (availability). In particular, vivid, emotionally-charged anecdotes seem more plausible, and are given greater weight. A related issue is that it is usually impossible to assess for every piece of anecdotal evidence, the rate of people not reporting that anecdotal evidence in the population.
A common way anecdotal evidence becomes unscientific is through fallacious reasoning such as the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, the human tendency to assume that if one event happens after another, then the first must be the cause of the second. Another fallacy involves inductive reasoning. For instance, if an anecdote illustrates a desired conclusion rather than a logical conclusion, it is considered a faulty or hasty generalization.
I assure you sir that is not the case among muzzle loader shooters and as well as all aspects of weaponry users, there is a great deal of science going on if it were not so, many of those here would not be asking so many questions in hope of receiving good solid varied information for a starting point on a very diverse subject to achieve perfection.
Anything less would fall into the mediocre realm and this forum and your post would not exist.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on September 14, 2013, 04:04:50 AM
Post by: kerrdog on September 14, 2013, 06:28:20 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on September 14, 2013, 12:13:38 PM
You are really making muzzleloading sound a whole lot more difficult that it really is. It really is not all that scientific.... I can shoot most any bullet I want to shoot with a variety of powder loads. Most often if you are not shooting accurately you should look at the rifle - the problem more than likely exists there than anywhere else....
Post by: Soady on September 15, 2013, 01:07:42 AM
Soady
You are really making muzzleloading sound a whole lot more difficult that it really is. It really is not all that scientific.... I can shoot most any bullet I want to shoot with a variety of powder loads. Most often if you are not shooting accurately you should look at the rifle - the problem more than likely exists there than anywhere else....
Soady
Most often if you are not shooting accurately you should look at the rifle - the problem more than likely exists there than anywhere else....
Sabotloader,
I respect your contributions and I know you have devoted much information to this board however:
Let me ask you this question, of all your posts that you have offered up through your evolution of muzzle loading from a new shooter to a highly regarded Sage that you have become, you don't see the scientific and difficult aspects in respect to a new beginner just dipping his feet into the art of muzzle loading.
Are you dismissing the learning curve and just jumping to the end results that work best for you? I am sure you can and will shoot any bullet you chose to shoot with a variety of powder loads accurately, however don't forget your roots. Call it what you want, science or trial and error, B.S., or a good laugh, there are valid questions being asked here by new beginners, who are willing to do the science, trial and error, sort out the B.S. using the equipment they have at hand.
All they ask for is a starting point of where they are standing, provide them with that information and we will go a long ways in building a stronger foundation for muzzle loading as a way of hunting and a way of recreational shooting. Anything less and we just turn the switch to the off position.
Those new to the art are asking for information to achieve the "Nirvana" you have, starting from the beginning. Not all can jump to the best equipment possibly made, shooting the best bullets possibly made, some are just beginners and want to know how to use what they have at hand in the best possible way to hopefully evolve to the status you have achieved.
Thus my mention of the NASCAR analogy: not all muzzle loader rifles are created equal, not all shooters are created equal, not all powders are created equal, not all bullets are created equal, each one must be tweaked, tuned, and driven to get the best possible performance provided by each shooter behind the rifle. Every edge gained comes with a learning curve/scientific/trial and error process, toss out the B.S. and learn from those who have gone before the beginners.
Noted in your post on the Barnes bullet I say "Thank You" for posting that information it will go a long ways in helping those that asked for information.
Respectfully,
Soady
hahahaha ....this was a good laugh for me this morning :chuckle:Check your compass Bowhunter you seem to be lost in the wrong forum. :sry:
The B.S. here got even deeper than I'd hoped for. :chuckle:Put your Big Boy Boots on then, it's bound to get deeper! :twocents:
Post by: OnHoPr on September 15, 2013, 09:59:26 PM
What I do know from personal experience is this: I poured my own 440gr 500S&W conicals, lubed and sized them all to .501 and pushed them with 80gr of RS FFg thru both my new Extreme and my used Bighorn. Same everything except for the actual rifles. The Bighorn threw them wonderfully. The Extreme....well...... I gave up for now even getting them on paper reliably at 50yds. These monsters can do a lot of damage going thru an animal SIDEWAYS, but the accuracy is less than desired! :yike:
Have you tried paper patching those 501's at about 8 or 9 BHN. I know one on another forum that shoots to a couple hundred yards with them and working on further. They do a pretty good job on critters. I've only periodically tested with them.
Hope I didn't get of the subject to much.