Hunting Washington Forum

Equipment & Gear => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: Pete112288 on October 15, 2013, 07:57:42 PM

Title: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: Pete112288 on October 15, 2013, 07:57:42 PM: I have heard a few debates back and fourth lately and am curious about what everyone on here has to say.
One point of view I have heard is that the larger diameter bullets preform better on game because when they expand they get that much bigger and they arent so thin as to zip right through so they slow down and expand better.
Another is that the longer more slender bullets are better because they stabilize better and are less likely to tumble so they become more accurate.
Most the time what brings about these conversations are when someone prefers a larger diameter round than someone else but roughly the same grain bullet. One guy said he really didnt like the 7mms and smaller diameters for elk because they zip through too fast so 30 caliber was the smallest he would use.
I do not have that much technical knowlege of bullets and such. Just the trajectories and preformances of the ones I have used.
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: RadSav on October 15, 2013, 08:04:56 PM: In regards to hunting it all comes down to - Different strokes for different folks! As long as the bullet stays together most all do well with proper placement. Though it is good to have a reasonable expectation of a calibers limitations on the quarry you are after.

In long range target shooting it is a different story as high BC almost always wins the day.
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: lokidog on October 15, 2013, 08:06:53 PM: Funny argument between 7mm and .30 cal or 7.62mm.... How much faster is a 0.62 mm difference going to make? This, I would think, would have more of a difference depending on velocity of the round given a similar bullet construction.

Now, if you are comparing a .35 cal to a 7mm, maybe a significant difference.

:dunno:
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: norsepeak on October 15, 2013, 08:07:52 PM: you are talking about two different things. The shape of the bullet is only relevant during flight. The construction of the bullet has to do with terminal performance (mushrooming) The long slender bullets are going to have a higher ballistic coeffecient and buck the winds better. The will also retain velocity over distance better which is good for longer distances. The bullet construction will determine terminal performance. A good bonded bullet will stay together, retain weight and mushroom better than a thin jacketed VLD type bullet which will tend to explode with less penetration. Will they both kill effectively, absolutely. I shoot a 7mm, and when I'm hunting in open country and smaller animals like deer, sheep or goats I like the VLD type bullets, especially the Bergers. But when I hunt something big like moose, I prefer the big bonded bullets.
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: KenPCPilot on October 15, 2013, 08:19:53 PM: Generally longer bullets need a higher twist ratio to stay stable. But can give better long range performance. At most hunting ranges good factory ammo will perform well. I have dropped down to 125 gr .308 Win ammo for deer. Scary accurate so I am much more confident on my shot placement. 2 years ago I shot and killed a large bear with .30-06 ammo that my father purchased in 1972. I personally perfer ballistic tip ammo. The plastic ballistic tip tend to push the bullet open and I imagine more energy spent on impact. I have read for bear you want a slower big bullet with retains weight better. Good luck. I hope others share their thoughts so you can compare. So over the years I have came down on bullet weight on deer finding lighter with good shot placement more reliable on ensuring a short tracking job after a shot.
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: Bofire on October 16, 2013, 11:39:20 AM: :) Mr. Bell, when shooting elephants with a 7X57, claimed that a long slender projectile penetrated meat in a more dependably straight line. This allowed a more certain heart shot, he thought. He killed hundreds of elephants.
Carl
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on October 16, 2013, 11:43:32 AM: A longer, more slender bullet has higher sectional density and, depending on material/construction, can offer more penetration.

for deer sized animals it's not that important with most deer sized calibers. In bigger, or more dangerous game it does make a big difference.
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: buckfvr on October 16, 2013, 11:54:06 AM: I have seen deer drop stone dead, like a switch was tripped, from 6mm Rem all the way to .338 Win Mag. More overall from the 6mm Rem.....Modern ammunition in any deer suitable caliber is deadly......... :twocents:
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: 7mmstalker on October 17, 2013, 06:03:20 PM: Bullet selection for deer hunting seems to get :beatdeadhorse:

That being what it is, deer is likely the most often shot animal in the US. The OP doesn't say anything about "bullet for deer" so I won't assume that.
Looking at the bigger picture, the ammo choices, and variables of the hunting situation make it pretty hard to say one or the other. If I were going to hunt antelope, the light and long for caliber slug would be my first choice by far. Big bears or moose - the fat slugs are your best bet.
Then you decide to go for a sheep hunt, they aren't very tough, but much of the ground they live on is also brown bear territory. There a good chance that a long shot may be necessary, and you don't often get a second chance, at least not the same day or drainage! AK fish and game recommends a "bear gun" for mountain goat hunting - they are hard to kill and brownies are often found in the area.
Pretty difficult to choose one over the other, both styles of bullet have their benefits and drawbacks, premium bullets that feature bonded core, partition, or solid construction bridge the gap very well, so the hunter is not forced to choose one or the other.

The time honored position to take in these debates is that the best recipe for a quick clean kill is shot placement above all else!
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: coachcw on October 17, 2013, 06:13:25 PM: I have found that big magnums often blow right threw animals at close ranges especially with bonded bullets . I rather see a bullet come apart and do terminal damage . the longer bullets are more stabile and buck the wind well but if pushing them at 3000 plus fps I'd be careful using bonded bullets at close range innless you shoulder shoot.
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: RadSav on October 17, 2013, 06:40:07 PM: I had a friend who guided Montana elk most of his life. When we would get together the topic of weapon choice would always seem to come up. Usually it was a joint bit ching session as we complained about some no experience guy at the sporting goods stores messing up clients after we had them bringing the right stuff. The topic of SD & BC came up one year and he got all hot and bothered. "It's all minutia", he said! "Something for writers to get a pay check creating hysteria where there is no need." To the very end of his life he remained convinced that the 130 grain .270 was the absolute King of elk hunting rounds. In his experience, and mine for that matter, he felt that the vast majority of hunters put the 130 .270 round in the right spot. Rarely, did either of us see consistency in shot placement once the hunter went above the moderately small .270. "I would rather have a guy in my camp shoot a 100 grain 6mm that hits where he is aiming, than a guy with a 250 grain .338 who never really knows where it's going to go after the flinching jerk of the trigger." I could not agree with Ray more!
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: yorketransport on October 17, 2013, 08:16:18 PM: Why not both? :chuckle:

I'm a big fan of the .375" 350gr Sierra Matchking. It's long and slender (relative to bore diameter), and nice and fat. It makes any 7mm bullet look pretty sad. ;)

Here's an interesting comparison. It's a 6mm 105gr A-max, .308 185gr Berger VLD, 338 250gr SMK, 375 350gr SMK, and a 375 350gr Woodleigh solid. You can have big, heavy, slender bullets! :tup:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi162.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft260%2Fcollegekidandy%2F100_1477.jpg&hash=5bed88b09b4fb7851752f47bff8e6e8f102ac270) (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/collegekidandy/media/100_1477.jpg.html)

Andrew
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: nwwanderer on October 17, 2013, 09:09:16 PM: Read Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor. Full meal deal on both subjects.
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: RadSav on October 17, 2013, 09:26:44 PM: Quote from: nwwanderer on October 17, 2013, 09:09:16 PM
Read Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor. Full meal deal on both subjects.

Wow, I just did a little reading on Keith. I knew a little about his work on pistols. Never knew he was so instrumental in the development of .338 rifle cartridges. I might need to get his book. Thank you for the name reference and tip :tup:
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: Bofire on October 18, 2013, 11:34:13 AM: Elmer had no use for Jack OConner or the 270. Both great men.
Carl
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: hillbilli on October 18, 2013, 02:49:04 PM: if i shoot a ballistic gelatin block with a .270, a .30-06, and an 8mm mauser.. you will find that the wider, fatter bullet will expand to a greter diameter, and cut a slightly wider hole. the bullet designs are the same, often the velocities are the same. a longer narrower bullet will often have a higher ballistic coeficient- which means it is more efficient going through the air- and keeps its velocity better. A 150gr .27 or .28 caliber bullet of similar design will have a higher BC than 150gr .30 or .32 (like the 8mm).. and thus will keep its velocity longer. In spite of these differences- as long as you are shooting something in the .30-06 class of cartridges- there is not a deer of elk that can live on the difference between a .270, a .280, a .30-06, etc.. once you are in this class of power- and are using decent bullets- and can place them- the differences are pretty small.
Someone mentioned Bell shoting elephants with the 7x57, but that is a little different- as he was shooting about a 173gr roundnose full metal jacket.. and the one of the first things he did when he got to africa was pay someone to cut an elephant skull in half- so he knew exactly where that volleyball sized brain was. He knew that a smallbore heavy for caliber hardnosed bullets penetrated enough to kill about anything- with less recoil, etc than the big calibers- as long as they were placed properly. (but thats a bot of an aside from out discussion of deer and elk bullets-unless you are going to start head shooting them with FMJ)
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: RadSav on October 18, 2013, 02:57:33 PM: Quote from: Bofire on October 18, 2013, 11:34:13 AM
Elmer had no use for Jack OConner or the 270. Both great men.
Carl

Big men and big bore guys usually did not have much use for the small framed O'Conner. Especially when his success with the .270 went against everything they preached. I'm looking forward to reading up more on Elmer.
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: Alchase on October 21, 2013, 11:15:34 AM: Quote from: hillbilli on October 18, 2013, 02:49:04 PM
if i shoot a ballistic gelatin block with a .270, a .30-06, and an 8mm mauser.. you will find that the wider, fatter bullet will expand to a greter diameter, and cut a slightly wider hole. the bullet designs are the same, often the velocities are the same. a longer narrower bullet will often have a higher ballistic coeficient- which means it is more efficient going through the air- and keeps its velocity better. A 150gr .27 or .28 caliber bullet of similar design will have a higher BC than 150gr .30 or .32 (like the 8mm).. and thus will keep its velocity longer. In spite of these differences- as long as you are shooting something in the .30-06 class of cartridges- there is not a deer of elk that can live on the difference between a .270, a .280, a .30-06, etc.. once you are in this class of power- and are using decent bullets- and can place them- the differences are pretty small.
Someone mentioned Bell shoting elephants with the 7x57, but that is a little different- as he was shooting about a 173gr roundnose full metal jacket.. and the one of the first things he did when he got to africa was pay someone to cut an elephant skull in half- so he knew exactly where that volleyball sized brain was. He knew that a smallbore heavy for caliber hardnosed bullets penetrated enough to kill about anything- with less recoil, etc than the big calibers- as long as they were placed properly. (but thats a bot of an aside from out discussion of deer and elk bullets-unless you are going to start head shooting them with FMJ)

Accurate explanation!

I love caliber threads, they are almost as entertaining as "brush gun" threads, LOL
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: Bofire on October 21, 2013, 04:12:54 PM: :) Most of the Bell stories I read talk about shooting thru the lungs or heart at10- 20 feet , then sitting down and wait to hear them fall. :chuckle:
Carl
Title: Re: Longer slender bullets vs Fatter bullets
Post by: Alchase on October 22, 2013, 12:49:47 PM: Quote from: Bofire on October 21, 2013, 04:12:54 PM
:) Most of the Bell stories I read talk about shooting thru the lungs or heart at10- 20 feet , then sitting down and wait to hear them fall. :chuckle:
Carl

Then follow the yacked up clots!
LOL