Hunting Washington Forum
Other Hunting => Waterfowl => Topic started by: shoot4Boone on November 01, 2008, 11:46:09 PM
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any thoughts on what the best breed of retriever here is for northwest hunting. I'm planning on getting a retriever within the next two years (gotta finish school first so I have time to train it properly) I mostly hunt ducks out of a boat and also have allergies to some animal dander so i'm contemplating a labradoodle, as funny as the name is I read they are great hunting dogs. apparently don't shed much at all and have great retrieving insticts in water like a lab. those that are wondering it's a lab poodle mix. really sounds silly but I've seen some work very well. any thoughts appreciated.
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Hard to beat a lab, in my mind. They're faithful, want to make you happy, hard working dogs, will retrieve all day and are good pets on non-hunting days, especially with kids. They can also stand up to the cold weather and water during the late season
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A labradoodle is not a breed. It is a cross breed.
In the old days, it meant Rex got out. Today, they seem to want 8 bills for 'em. I'm not badmouthing them, I'm just sayin...times change.
I own goldens, I've had chessies, a chessie/setter cross, and hunted over several fine labradors. You will find that breed is interesting, and breeding for hunting instinct is important. You will find that the time you spend with the dog training and going hunting is way more important in what the mature, journeyman dog becomes than anything else. If you spend the most money, send the dog to the finest training, and don't go training it your self or take it hunting ever, it will be lousy. If you get a cross breed dog for free, and spend the time and energy to train and take the dog, it will be everything you could ever wish in a dog.
Spend less time worrying about breed, and more time hunting and being with the dog.
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i have a lab mix that i found(free), and my buddy has had 3 free lab mixes. In my experience they aren't any different than the expensive dogs that were sent away to expensive trainers. Its all how you train them.
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i have a lab mix that i found(free), and my buddy has had 3 free lab mixes. In my experience they aren't any different than the expensive dogs that were sent away to expensive trainers. Its all how you train them.
Have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. There is no.....I repeat no substitute for a lab or any other hunting breed for that matter from a solid line of well bred parents and grandparents. That's not to say someone with no common sense or dog savy with the best breeding offers ends up with a dud, or conversely a person who understands dogs and has a mix breed can do some amazing things. Utimately though, your odds of ending up with a top notch animal begins with genetics....no doubt about it. Good genetics and proven parents, etc. comes with a price. If one realizes the cost is minimal over the dog's lifetime it makes the purchase easier to accept.
This is more important if you train a dog to do what it was bred for. What I mean is the total package.....steady until sent, marking birds as they fall. Training on blind retrieves and everything else. With bird dogs...i.e. pointers....steady to wing and shot...honoring etc. If you don't expect to put that effort into it, then bloodlines may not be all that important to you. The majority of dogs are never trained to do all they were bred for.
If you want a comparison just go to a licensed AKC retriever trial and compare the open (group) dogs and what they do to those you see out hunting with the average guy. Lots of effort goes into a finished dog, but everyone should experience that joy once in their life....just my two cents.
Oh....I would rate a BLACK lab right at the top of the retrieving world....if you want the toughest and can adapt your style of training to not always being the boss....get a Chessy.
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Have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. There is no.....I repeat no substitute for a lab or any other hunting breed for that matter from a solid line of well bred parents and grandparents. That's not to say someone with no common sense or dog savy with the best breeding offers ends up with a dud, or conversely a person who understands dogs and has a mix breed can do some amazing things. Utimately though, your odds of ending up with a top notch animal begins with genetics....no doubt about it. Good genetics and proven parents, etc. comes with a price.
+1 100% AGREE....
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I have to agree Labs are the best retrievers hands down!
I think that buying a labradoodle with the belief it will be a great hunter, is a mistake. Yes, both the lab and the poodle are hunting dogs. However, there a few poodles that are still bred and used for hunting and how can you take a dog that allery free..lol and breed it to one that isn't and figure it will be????
I don't know when you have high quality field bred labs, it's annoying to see people taking a breed you work so hard at bettering and have it bred with a poodle and get a mut!
I am not sure how familiar you are with a lab but, they have basically is two differently bred labs.
There is the "show" and "field" bred labs. I have found our field bred labs coats aren't as dense as the show and shedding is less. That's our experience.
I know it's a touchy subject but, if you do decide to get a lab, let me know and I will point you to a great trainer and breeder.
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If the poodle personality and coat is what you are after just get a working bred poodle. ;)
The huge disadvantage to the mixed breed is you run the risk of getting all the faults from both breeds. Which means you can increase your odds of bad genetics, bad health, and temperment problems. Most purebred breeders work hard to produce high quality, healthy dogs that can perform, so no matter the breed I also always prefer working with a good breeder.
If you want info on poodles give me a holler my husbands bird dog is a poodle ;)
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There is an old dog breeding saying......
"Like begets like".......what that means is you get as was mentioned above....both the good and bad traits of the parents. That is why proven genetics with a minimum of risk or lack of bad traits, is what one should try to obtain in selection of a life long hunting companion.
Once you have decided on a pup of good linage there are some additional things you can do to help make the selection. Those include watching littermates play and romp judging dominance, agressiveness, alertess etc.
One of my favorites is to take something along like a piece of cooked hamburger, chicken etc. and keep it in the rig until the pups are outside and have initially gotten over you being there. In other words, ignoring you somewhat and playing amonst themselves. Get the burger, chicken, or whatever from the rig and get upwind from them at a distance(hopefully there is a slight breeze). Move in say 5 feet at a time until all of a sudden one or two heads pop up out of the play pile, smell the food and head your way. PICK ONE OF THESE IF IT FITS YOUR OTHER REQUIREMENTS SUCH AS SEX ETC.
You can't train an "EXCEPTIONAL" nose....they either have it or they don't. Although all the pups will probably have good noses, these little buggers will wind birds quicker and farther than the average dog. Pays immense dividends over their lifetime....believe me on this one...you won't regret it.
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If the poodle personality and coat is what you are after just get a working bred poodle. ;)
The huge disadvantage to the mixed breed is you run the risk of getting all the faults from both breeds. Which means you can increase your odds of bad genetics, bad health, and temperament problems. Most purebred breeders work hard to produce high quality, healthy dogs that can perform, so no matter the breed I also always prefer working with a good breeder.
If you want info on poodles give me a holler my husbands bird dog is a poodle ;)
AMEN!!! :bash: And also AMEN to the "labradoodle" is nothing more than a mongrel that some near-crooks have invented a catchy name for to snag people ignorant of the actual, recognized and registered dog breeds.
If you want a nonallergic dog; yes, check out the Standard Poodle, but also, look at the American Water Spaniel and the Irish water Spaniel, too.
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Labradoodles were originally bred by an Aussie service dog group attempting to get the qualities/trainability of a lab with the non-allergenic qualities of a poodle. The group abandoned the project after finding elevated health issues, genetic problems and lack of consistency of desired traits.
A labradoodle will have a lessened hunting ability over a purebred lab.(if the lab was worth anything to begin with) Poodles have not been a viable hunting companion since the 1950's. Their ability has long been lost/bred out of them. Additionally, most breeders are using labs from show and service lines which are often refered to as "British Labs" which typically look like a 50gallon barrel with tooth picks for legs.
You would be better off and much happier in the long run if, you buy a pure bred dog from a reputable breeder who has been breeding dogs longer than "labradoodles have been trendy".
By researching breeders with people who are in the know, you can select the size of dog, temperament, birdyness, love of water, love for upland or ducks....many traits are well established in long standing breeding lines. (predominantly field trial dogs, or FC's) When buying a dog, remember CH is a show title. Someone tells you you are buying from "champion lines" it means the dog won a few dog shows, it won't help you hunt. Titles at the end of the dogs name if accompanied by a CH. in front are typically agility and obedience titles which again, won't help the dog hunt. example; CH. IwishIwasahuntindog UD CD NA....all of those titles indicate the dog is good looking and is trainable.
When you go buy a retriever, be sure the breeder has been in business for some time, ask for references and call the references, ask how much they train the dog, how much they hunt. Be sure the parents (sire and dam) or one of the parents are a field tested dog. Look for something that looks like this; FC Iamaprovenhuntingmachine MH WDX.
Just my thoughts.....I have hunted under a short legged black pound mutt, was one of the finest pheasant dogs I ever hunted over but, I prefer to pay a bit more for a four legged friend I will have with me for over 10years. Happy.
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Here are a few titles and meanings for your reference.
CH. = Show Champion ----- won't help you hunt
Intrnl CH. International champion-----won some shows in Canada
UD = Utility dog---will pick up objects and is obedient --won't help you hunt
AJ = Agility --- runs around sticks and through tunnels fast---won't help you hunt
CD = Companion dog= basic obedience title, sit/stay/down ---won't help you hunt
Meat and Potatoes: Here is what you look for from the parents(Dam and Sire)
NFC= the pinnacle of retriever titles, you won't be able to afford a dog with this title in the bloodlines if, you are anything like me= National Field Trial Champion.
AFC=Field Champion handled by an amateur---another top dog
FC= Field Champion handled by a professional field trial trainer
JH= junior hunter= a very basic skill level in hunt tests. Dog must pick up a single shot bird and return bird to handlers' hand
SH= Senior hunter= dog must mark a double on shot birds, return to hand, then complete a blind(hidden bird requiring the dog to take whistle and hand signals from the owner)
MH= top level of hunt tested dogs. Tests are complicated and with triple shot birds and blinds which are tempting dog to return to old area of fall.
Other titles you might see are HRC titles which are not as common here in the northwest but, gaining popularity.
a really good hunting dog would have parents which looked like this....
FC Chopper's birdy MH X Little ducky sally SH ** (the stars indicate field trial qualifications)
Hope that is helpful and not too confusing....Happy...
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Poodles have not been a viable hunting companion since the 1950's. Their ability has long been lost/bred out of them.
Well I beg to differ. Their ability is there it just isn't being cultivated by more than a handful of breeders in the US and Canada.
Poodles are extremely driven dogs, although the field bred labs I saw were worse.....they require alot of attention and exercise but are highly trainable. Poodles are definately not an easy choice for a hunting dog. First you have to live down all the snide comments :chuckle: :chuckle: then when your poodle kicks the butts of field bred labs at a trial you get even more grief. Too bad I didn't want titles hubby and the dog could have had a few......he just wanted opportunities to work the dog in the field with lots of other dogs and people.
And just another item to note......poodles are NOT hypo allergenic no dogs are. They also do shed contrary to popular belief. They shed far less than many other breeds, and allergies to dogs can be caused by hair or dander if it's dander that you are allergic to there is NO dog free from this, some just seem to produce less and the diet can be a big factor.
For less allergic dogs as T bone mentioned american and irish water spaniels are options, and if you can find one a curly coated retriever may be another option.
you might scan these two websites
http://www.gamebirdhunts.com/ (http://www.gamebirdhunts.com/)
http://www.navhda.org/ (http://www.navhda.org/)
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Here's another site to do some research:
http://www.gundogbreeders.com/
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Poodles have not been a viable hunting companion since the 1950's. Their ability has long been lost/bred out of them.
Well I beg to differ. Their ability is there it just isn't being cultivated by more than a handful of breeders in the US and Canada.
Poodles are extremely driven dogs, although the field bred labs I saw were worse.....they require alot of attention and exercise but are highly trainable. Poodles are definately not an easy choice for a hunting dog. First you have to live down all the snide comments :chuckle: :chuckle: then when your poodle kicks the butts of field bred labs at a trial you get even more grief. Too bad I didn't want titles hubby and the dog could have had a few......he just wanted opportunities to work the dog in the field with lots of other dogs and people.
And just another item to note......poodles are NOT hypo allergenic no dogs are. They also do shed contrary to popular belief. They shed far less than many other breeds, and allergies to dogs can be caused by hair or dander if it's dander that you are allergic to there is NO dog free from this, some just seem to produce less and the diet can be a big factor.
For less allergic dogs as T bone mentioned american and irish water spaniels are options, and if you can find one a curly coated retriever may be another option.
you might scan these two websites
http://www.gamebirdhunts.com/ (http://www.gamebirdhunts.com/)
http://www.navhda.org/ (http://www.navhda.org/)
I'll need to see the last time a poodle Completed a Field Trial. I will check in on another board and ask. The biggest news of an off breed dog(non-lab) even getting into a a upper level competition is a lady from Mercer Island who runs Irish Water Spaniels. She qualified to run in the Master Nationals. I think she made it to the 3rd series.(it got tough and they dropped a lot of dogs) I am pretty sure it was the first time an Irish Water Spaniel ever has qualified for Master National.
I spend my spring and summer weekends at Hunt Tests and Trials. I saw one Poodle entered in a Junior Hunter stake one time. It didn't pass. Not because there was lack of drive but, it wasn't trained properly.
Not to be rude, I always root for the underdogs and off-breeds to perform well but, the numbers are the facts and there just are not any poodles competing at a high level. I am certain some folks own some fine Poodles who are great family and recreational hunting buddies, they just can't do what labs can do otherwise, all the field trialers would be buying and running Poodles.
It all just depends on what you plan on doing with your dog, what time you put into training and what you expect. All hunting dogs(by my definition) require a lot of attention and training. You won't get any breed you pick off the shelf, take hunting then, put back in the kennel for the rest of the year and expect to have a happy hunt. It is completely false that field bred labs are hyper and crazy. They are bred to have higher drive and better noses but, the bottom line is a famous line from one of the greatest field trial trainers of all time, "You own what you condone."
If, you want the contact info for the lady who has the Irish Water Spaniels send me a PM. Happy
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"You own what you condone."
So true.....says it all. Also could not agree more with your statement of seeing what's winning at field trials. Want to get a sense of what a retriever or pointing dog can do.....attend a high end trial, then draw a comparison.
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great opinions guys, yes, when looking for a good breed, prob is a good idea to check out the dogs at the top of the trials, wow, so much to take in good thing I have another 18mos left in nursing school to decide.
thanks for all the great tips, i like the one about when picking from the litter let them get used to you then bring out a dead bird or meat and see which nose pops up first. i will have plenty of research material here, thanks guys and gals.
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I have had Chessy's all my life. On my third one now. They are fine dogs. Very protective of the family and will usually listen to only its owner. Great with kids of all sizes. Be prepared to be stared at for long periods of time. Once a Chessy bonds with you, it is YOUR dog, no one Else's. My wife gets mad cause she can call that dog in for dinner till she is blue in the face and it wont come, so I give the dog a holler and it is in in seconds. In short, Great dogs are those Chessy's. Spend a little extra at a reputable breeder.
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Chessy's are extremely tough hunting dogs I have found they can handle the cold weather even better than labs, but they can be stubborn. Actually I know this goes against all you purebred or bust guys but some of the finest waterfowl and pheasant dogs I have ever hunted over were Lab/Chessy crosses. I think it all depends on the amount of time you spend with the dog. I know people that won't own anything but a cross and others that wouldn't think of owning a "mut". By the way here is a pic of our newest edition a purbred chocolate lab.
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I had a lab/Chesapeake cross when I was younger, two bird dogs got together behind a blind :bash: worked out for me though :) that dog was a fighter smart as hell (ches), really attentive (lab), inquisitive (ches) and instinct (ches).
But I tell you what she was the most stuburn thing on the face of the earth. 80 was her close.
My next dog is either going to be a lab or chessie, and i'm starting toward the Chesapeake lately.
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Hands down, Labs are the best all purpose dog around. Also check out pointing labs for a great mix of upland bird hunting and waterfowling. You will not find a better dog for all around use. :beatdeadhorse:
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I feel that if you get a Chessy, get a pup as soon as it can be without its mother. Over time as the dog grows, it MUST see YOU as the pack leader! It will not respect you or listen to you if this connection is not made. Maybe I have been lucky, but my chessy's have been great what ever they do. Waterfowl, upland, or just a good fishing buddy, they are great! I don't worry about people calling the dog over to pet it or it running of with a stranger, mine ignore most people. I have hunted with many great Labs, but they will listen to most anyone in my experience. My Chessy's will only do what I tell them, and I think that is cool!
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Have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. There is no.....I repeat no substitute for a lab or any other hunting breed for that matter from a solid line of well bred parents and grandparents. That's not to say someone with no common sense or dog savy with the best breeding offers ends up with a dud, or conversely a person who understands dogs and has a mix breed can do some amazing things. Utimately though, your odds of ending up with a top notch animal begins with genetics....no doubt about it. Good genetics and proven parents, etc. comes with a price.
+1 100% AGREE....
me too.
lab, goldens, chessies are all good. lab and goldens are generally gonna be better for upland. chessies are generally gonna be a little tougher to train. in the end much will come down to your personal tastes regarding temprament, looks, etc. chicks dig goldens though :chuckle:
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i have a lab mix that i found(free), and my buddy has had 3 free lab mixes. In my experience they aren't any different than the expensive dogs that were sent away to expensive trainers. Its all how you train them.
Have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. There is no.....I repeat no substitute for a lab or any other hunting breed for that matter from a solid line of well bred parents and grandparents. That's not to say someone with no common sense or dog savy with the best breeding offers ends up with a dud, or conversely a person who understands dogs and has a mix breed can do some amazing things. Utimately though, your odds of ending up with a top notch animal begins with genetics....no doubt about it. Good genetics and proven parents, etc. comes with a price. If one realizes the cost is minimal over the dog's lifetime it makes the purchase easier to accept.
This is more important if you train a dog to do what it was bred for. What I mean is the total package.....steady until sent, marking birds as they fall. Training on blind retrieves and everything else. With bird dogs...i.e. pointers....steady to wing and shot...honoring etc. If you don't expect to put that effort into it, then bloodlines may not be all that important to you. The majority of dogs are never trained to do all they were bred for.
If you want a comparison just go to a licensed AKC retriever trial and compare the open (group) dogs and what they do to those you see out hunting with the average guy. Lots of effort goes into a finished dog, but everyone should experience that joy once in their life....just my two cents.
Oh....I would rate a BLACK lab right at the top of the retrieving world....if you want the toughest and can adapt your style of training to not always being the boss....get a Chessy.
Very well put. I agree training is very important, but you will never get the drive out of a mix that you get out of a papered lab with strong hunting lines.