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Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: soccerftw123 on November 03, 2013, 10:55:34 PM


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Title: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: soccerftw123 on November 03, 2013, 10:55:34 PM
Am i a dumb teenager or are hunters being robbed in Eastern Washington for elk? The true spike rule kills the young stupid ones instead of letting them grow up. I am no Trophy hunter but i would rather take a mature animal instead of a yearling. So i am going to quit hunting Washington until there are better antler restrictions, like 5 point minimum would let a lot more elk survive. Or they change it to the colorado rules where its permit only but there are ample permits and if you can't draw one you can still hunt west side. I just feel like we are getting the short end of the stick for a 45 dollar tag and a ton of money for permit applications. Til then ill be in Oregon.  :hello:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: EDT on November 03, 2013, 11:15:50 PM
I don't know about the "young stupid ones"  talk, but I do agree and I wish eastern Washington was special permit only for all elk.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Bean Counter on November 04, 2013, 12:06:50 AM
Several states are draw only for elk, even for residents. The way it should be, IMHO.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Scottystyle on November 04, 2013, 03:23:39 AM
Washington should do it just like Oregon IMO. 
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: chukar58 on November 04, 2013, 05:31:59 AM
What are the elk restrictions in Oregon for bull elk?
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: MHWASH on November 04, 2013, 05:37:56 AM
The idea behind the spike only rule is that 90% of spikes die annually. Some from hunting, some from just being young and dumb. It's just a fact of life.

I have been hunting the BLues since '96 or '97 and can tell you the spike only rule does not hurt the bull numbers. In my opinion the largest factor on the # of mature bulls are the indians. If you don't believe me take a drive to the Blues in late September and see for your self.

I would also love to see Eastern WA go to a draw only for any antlered elk.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: buglebuster on November 04, 2013, 05:41:18 AM
I think its fine the way it is  :tup:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Ridgerunner on November 04, 2013, 05:57:50 AM
You definately won't be elk hunting here in the near future if that is what you are waiting for.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Axle on November 04, 2013, 06:34:34 AM
Quote
What are the elk restrictions in Oregon for bull elk?

For us? - the restriction is in the price of the tag.  :yike: That worked very well for me!  :(
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Buzz2401 on November 04, 2013, 06:44:50 AM
I don't mind hunting spikes but I do wish they would reduce the number of hunters in the field by going to permit only.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: brutus1 on November 04, 2013, 07:21:17 AM
"Wow" give the anti-hunters ammunition..why not just go to three-point or better and have permits for any elk..that's the direction the game department is heading is anyway. Why make it any easier for them to make easy decisions for us hunters. Think about why they went to this point system in the first place..I was told about twenty years ago this was what their plan was. We need to stick together as hunters and be better stewards of our land and resources.. To many animals are being taken out of season or by other predators...
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: gunnarnewt on November 04, 2013, 07:33:06 AM
I've always been a proponent of the permit only system..... Look what it's done for Nevada and Utah. I could live with that.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: nw_bowhunter on November 04, 2013, 08:07:37 AM
If we go permit only you will be sitting on the sideline for along time wishing you could hunt.. Wanting to hunt bulls go to CO, MT, OR, WY, ETC. Be happy that you can hunt each year.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: mdbuck5x5 on November 04, 2013, 08:56:21 AM
If we go permit only you will be sitting on the sideline for along time wishing you could hunt.. Wanting to hunt bulls go to CO, MT, OR, WY, ETC. Be happy that you can hunt each year.

 :yeah:

Thank you! Somebody with some sense!
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on November 04, 2013, 09:03:22 AM
If we go permit only you will be sitting on the sideline for along time wishing you could hunt.. Wanting to hunt bulls go to CO, MT, OR, WY, ETC. Be happy that you can hunt each year.

Not necessarily. It all depends on how they set it up. Oregon is permit only  for most of the east side of the state, for rifle season. For those who don't draw a permit, they can still hunt the archery season. Besides that, it could done in such a way that a person could hunt at least every other year. In the off years, just spend more time hunting bears, coyotes, cougars, birds, deer, etc.

I know I would much rather have a good elk hunt every other year, than a terrible elk hunt every single year. Modern rifle elk season in this state is a total joke. There needs to some kind of limitation on the number of elk tags sold.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: scoyoc5 on November 04, 2013, 09:11:24 AM
 :yeah:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: gunnarnewt on November 04, 2013, 09:22:01 AM
It all comes down to this point... Would you rather be able to hunt ANY bull every 3 or so years, OR wait 15 years and chase the 7 spikes that are available. I would rather hunt any bull than just look for the needle in the haystack..... Again, my  :twocents:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: buck man on November 04, 2013, 09:32:04 AM
Living in the far north east corner of the state is a blessing during elk season! But we don't have the numbers the Yakima area does. What. We do have is escape cover.  Animals can live long enough to grow big.

I used to hunt the observatory, cowichee, and manastash units. The hunting has gone down hill dramatically in the last 15 years. I don't think the spike only ruling is the reason for the decline. Its too many hunters and too many predators, and I am sure poaching and tribal hunting play a role too.

I think the only thing that will bring back our herds are permit hunts period!
 If we go to a system like Utah. You have the vast majority of the state is permit hunting only. However there are huge units that are general hunting. These units tend to be extremely rugged and have good escapement. If you don't draw you hunt there. Yes they get crowded but they also hold good elk numbers. I know cause I have 10 points in Utah and still bull hunt any year I want. I usually kill a bull every year I go there.

We need to rethink how we manage our herds in this state. You may not be able to hunt elk every year if we go to a lottery system, but we could greatly increase the quality of the hunt if we did. Going to a permit system does not give the "antis" more ammo. It gives the herds a chance to grow again.

Oregon also has it figured out. A few general units, but bow hunters can hunt any draw unit for rifle with no lottery. I do it every year. Their blue mts. Are no different than ours......except they have elk in theirs!! :twocents:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: kentrek on November 04, 2013, 09:49:40 AM
I think its fine the way it is  :tup:

 :yeah: no matter what the state does folks that don't kill something are gona come up with an excuse..management..wolves...indians...people kill trophy bulls in general units ever year...

In my eyes wa is one of the best sleeper states out there

Just stiring the pot
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: NoBark on November 04, 2013, 10:29:59 AM
I think a big part of the problem is that as humans move into wintering areas, the Department lowers the herd size.   Over the years, the yakima herd size goal has been lowered a few times.   I remember when they lowered it from 15,000 to 13,000.  I'm not sure what goal is today, might be lower.  As the number of hunters has diminished so have the herds..  If they kept the goals and told landowners, it part of planting crops on winter range,   the hunting would be better.     Same thing for the St Helens herd.  "Damage Control" is the reason for reducing herd sizes.  That sucks IMHO.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: vandeman17 on November 04, 2013, 10:46:05 AM
Living in the far north east corner of the state is a blessing during elk season! But we don't have the numbers the Yakima area does. What. We do have is escape cover.  Animals can live long enough to grow big.

I used to hunt the observatory, cowichee, and manastash units. The hunting has gone down hill dramatically in the last 15 years. I don't think the spike only ruling is the reason for the decline. Its too many hunters and too many predators, and I am sure poaching and tribal hunting play a role too.

I think the only thing that will bring back our herds are permit hunts period!
 If we go to a system like Utah. You have the vast majority of the state is permit hunting only. However there are huge units that are general hunting. These units tend to be extremely rugged and have good escapement. If you don't draw you hunt there. Yes they get crowded but they also hold good elk numbers. I know cause I have 10 points in Utah and still bull hunt any year I want. I usually kill a bull every year I go there.

We need to rethink how we manage our herds in this state. You may not be able to hunt elk every year if we go to a lottery system, but we could greatly increase the quality of the hunt if we did. Going to a permit system does not give the "antis" more ammo. It gives the herds a chance to grow again.

Oregon also has it figured out. A few general units, but bow hunters can hunt any draw unit for rifle with no lottery. I do it every year. Their blue mts. Are no different than ours......except they have elk in theirs!! :twocents:

I couldn't have said it better myself
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Button Nubbs on November 04, 2013, 11:15:20 AM
I think its fine the way it is  :tup:

 :yeah: no matter what the state does folks that don't kill something are gona come up with an excuse..management..wolves...indians...people kill trophy bulls in general units ever year...

In my eyes wa is one of the best sleeper states out there

Just stiring the pot
:yeah: bingo! Wanna hunt bulls come figure the Westside or ne corner out. You can kill branch bulls every year. :dunno:

I don't hunt the eastside because I won't hunt cows and spikes. I like the way it is now.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: KopperBuck on November 04, 2013, 12:24:48 PM
Unfortunately you get a lot of people stick hunting when they probably shouldn't be. While it's nice you can put in for rifle and then buy a general archery afterwards if you don't draw, it makes for irresponsible hunting. I'm not knocking archery, but you get a lot of non-archery guys down here flinging.

There's still a good portion of good elk country down here that has a general second season, spike only, which is going on right now. 
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Roperfive88 on November 04, 2013, 12:27:46 PM
From what I hear before spike only the bull to cow ratio was very low. Now with spike only more bulls survive and the bull to cow ratio has gone up. I like being able to hunt elk every year even if it is just a spikes. If I ever get the opportunity to draw a branch tag I know that there is a very good chance to get a trophy bull. If they put a 5 pt restriction that does not help kill mature bulls. There are a lot of young raghorn bulls that are five points. I see lots of elk where I hunt and even see spikes and our camp has got a few. We have seen a small decline in really big bulls but I feel that is due to giving to many special permits for the area. So why fix it if its working. :twocents:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on November 04, 2013, 12:29:21 PM
I think its fine the way it is  :tup:

 :yeah: no matter what the state does folks that don't kill something are gona come up with an excuse..management..wolves...indians...people kill trophy bulls in general units ever year...

In my eyes wa is one of the best sleeper states out there

Just stiring the pot
:yeah: bingo! Wanna hunt bulls come figure the Westside or ne corner out. You can kill branch bulls every year. :dunno:

I don't hunt the eastside because I won't hunt cows and spikes. I like the way it is now.


Oh boy our sleeper state is now awake and everybody will come hunt elk here.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: 300rum on November 04, 2013, 12:37:53 PM
I would rather have an opportunity to hunt a nice bull every 10-12 years then kill a spike every year. 
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Slenk on November 04, 2013, 12:59:08 PM
I would rather have an opportunity to hunt a nice bull every 10-12 years then kill a spike every year.

You have that now.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: 300rum on November 04, 2013, 01:39:12 PM
You have the chance to hunt a spike every year. 

What I mean by that is that I could care less about hunting spike's (or killing them) and say I am "elk hunting" or successful or having a "good hunt".  Quality v. Quantity.

Unless your measurement of good Elk hunting is measured by revenue generation, Washington just doesn't come close. 

I would rather have an opportunity to hunt a nice bull every 10-12 years then kill a spike every year.

You have that now.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Snakeriver10 on November 04, 2013, 02:41:56 PM
I have hunted the Blues for twenty years, my dad for many more than that.  We have both applied for a bull permit in units in the Blues with a combined total of over 50 years, can you guess how many times we have been drawn?  00000000000000000000.  I wouldn't want a permit system just to hunt as others have suggested as the state has a proven track record of not drawing based on points, on years put in for the draw, it's a total joke and a huge money maker to the state. 

The spike unit system has its peaks and its downs.  The main idea behind it I believe was to increase the herd size.  Where I hunt in the blues, (Really close to Oregon and pretty far east) the herd size hasn't increased inside the fence for many many years.  Record book bulls have increased.  Cow numbers haven't.  Number of people poaching has went up though.  Have you ever sat near a road from dusk till dawn and notice how many guys drive into the mountains?  It is an insane amount and there not all there just to see the moon. 

Recently the number of Elk inside and outside the fence has increased though with the elk being pushed from Idaho.  Hopefully in years to come it will become common to see different herds of elk and be able to see a spike every year and not just every 30 years. 

The solution I have would be to shut down the Blues and other spike only units for five or so years and let the herds build up.  Anybody caught in the mountains in that time with a rifle not during a deer season should be accused of poaching to help limit some of the herd lose.  I also wouldn't mind to see the season pushed back a week to give the mountains some time to calm down from deer season. 
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Jonathan_S on November 04, 2013, 03:03:50 PM
I would rather have an opportunity to hunt a nice bull every 10-12 years then kill a spike every year.

Seriously?  So you'd get to hunt elk like 4-5 times in your life?  Not me.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: vandeman17 on November 04, 2013, 03:26:06 PM
I have hunted the Blues for twenty years, my dad for many more than that.  We have both applied for a bull permit in units in the Blues with a combined total of over 50 years, can you guess how many times we have been drawn?  00000000000000000000.  I wouldn't want a permit system just to hunt as others have suggested as the state has a proven track record of not drawing based on points, on years put in for the draw, it's a total joke and a huge money maker to the state. 

The spike unit system has its peaks and its downs.  The main idea behind it I believe was to increase the herd size.  Where I hunt in the blues, (Really close to Oregon and pretty far east) the herd size hasn't increased inside the fence for many many years.  Record book bulls have increased.  Cow numbers haven't.  Number of people poaching has went up though.  Have you ever sat near a road from dusk till dawn and notice how many guys drive into the mountains?  It is an insane amount and there not all there just to see the moon. 

Recently the number of Elk inside and outside the fence has increased though with the elk being pushed from Idaho.  Hopefully in years to come it will become common to see different herds of elk and be able to see a spike every year and not just every 30 years. 

The solution I have would be to shut down the Blues and other spike only units for five or so years and let the herds build up.  Anybody caught in the mountains in that time with a rifle not during a deer season should be accused of poaching to help limit some of the herd lose.  I also wouldn't mind to see the season pushed back a week to give the mountains some time to calm down from deer season.

I don't think the spike rule was put into place to increase herd size but more to better the mature bull count and bull to cow ratio. With that being said, by closing the area down for a few years would increase the herd numbers, I don't think it would increase the overall quality and health of the herd. I agree with some of the others who have said that we should go to a permit system of some kind. Maybe a hybrid of our current system with other states. Do something like give out a certain amount of permits per area with the first "x" amount being bull tags and then the rest being spike tags based on the counts and objectives of the reason. That way there will still be lots of tags to be had and a good amount of guys will be able to hunt. I think this will help spread out the hunters as well so that certain areas don't continue to get hammered. This is a very rough concept and would need some tweaks and fine tuning but I think it COULD work if done properly. Of course this is on the assumption that people would follow the rules and that poaching wouldn't be a big issue, which is a whole different monster.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: 300rum on November 04, 2013, 03:30:18 PM
If you only hunt Washington......

I would rather have an opportunity to hunt a nice bull every 10-12 years then kill a spike every year.

Seriously?  So you'd get to hunt elk like 4-5 times in your life?  Not me.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Reidus on November 04, 2013, 04:37:48 PM
The reasoning behind the spike only hunting is to allow everyone the opportunity to hunt. The state likes to manage the herds to around 18 bulls per 100 cows. So they have a spike season  so everyone can hunt every year and moderate the number of any bull tags to keep the bull/cow ratio to about 18/100. If they let the herd sizes get too large the landowners complain about crop damage. The fish and game hires seasonal employees that all they do is chase elk off private property. Not an easy task to make everyone happy! I've hunted the west side but just moved to the eastside and plan on hunting Montana when I don't draw a quality elk tag.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Jimmy33 on November 04, 2013, 04:46:10 PM
Raise the price on the general tag (because that's what the state wants) and make it 5 point or better...those old bulls are smart. Their genes have been spread and most of them are gonna die on a brushy north facing hillside somewhere. I know that I can never enjoy hunting spikes as much again after having a big bull permit in my pocket this year. It was awesome. I may go back to hunting the NE corner...
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Jonathan_S on November 04, 2013, 05:53:54 PM
If you only hunt Washington......

I would rather have an opportunity to hunt a nice bull every 10-12 years then kill a spike every year.

Seriously?  So you'd get to hunt elk like 4-5 times in your life?  Not me.

I understand and I'm looking into getting into the out of state elk hunting myself but I don't think that's a cool solution across the board  :twocents:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobdog86 on November 04, 2013, 06:36:28 PM
I have hunted the Blues for twenty years, my dad for many more than that.  We have both applied for a bull permit in units in the Blues with a combined total of over 50 years, can you guess how many times we have been drawn?  00000000000000000000.  I wouldn't want a permit system just to hunt as others have suggested as the state has a proven track record of not drawing based on points, on years put in for the draw, it's a total joke and a huge money maker to the state. 

The spike unit system has its peaks and its downs.  The main idea behind it I believe was to increase the herd size.  Where I hunt in the blues, (Really close to Oregon and pretty far east) the herd size hasn't increased inside the fence for many many years.  Record book bulls have increased.  Cow numbers haven't.  Number of people poaching has went up though.  Have you ever sat near a road from dusk till dawn and notice how many guys drive into the mountains?  It is an insane amount and there not all there just to see the moon. 

Recently the number of Elk inside and outside the fence has increased though with the elk being pushed from Idaho.  Hopefully in years to come it will become common to see different herds of elk and be able to see a spike every year and not just every 30 years. 

The solution I have would be to shut down the Blues and other spike only units for five or so years and let the herds build up.  Anybody caught in the mountains in that time with a rifle not during a deer season should be accused of poaching to help limit some of the herd lose.  I also wouldn't mind to see the season pushed back a week to give the mountains some time to calm down from deer season.
While I agree, a break between deer season and elk is a good idea, the notion of shutting the blues down for a few years to build the herd would only accomplish one thing……..It would definitely make it easier for the native americans. They take way more than there fare share, as anyone who spends any amount of time in the mountains can attest. Imagine closing the mountains so only they have access? not logical.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Snakeriver10 on November 04, 2013, 09:01:58 PM
"It would definitely make it easier for the native americans."

Really, you don't think the whites take more than their fair share?  This argument needs to end, its a stupid, stupid point to make.  (I am white and do get upset at some of the Indians ways they have it, but this argument is absolutely insane to even bring up.........)
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobdog86 on November 04, 2013, 09:26:04 PM
"It would definitely make it easier for the native americans."

Really, you don't think the whites take more than their fair share?  This argument needs to end, its a stupid, stupid point to make.  (I am white and do get upset at some of the Indians ways they have it, but this argument is absolutely insane to even bring up.........)
….. no more insane than closing the mountains for "5 years or so", which with your logic means a tax paying, law abiding citizen wouldn't be able to either bear hunt, cougar hunt legally in the national forest (or are including the entire Blue Mountains?). Yes, I agree with you, no doubt whites take plenty, both legally and illegally. But closing the mountains for a period of time, isn't the answer. Besides, we all know the state would never give up a cash cow, like our licensing/permit system.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on November 04, 2013, 09:37:28 PM
There is a easy solution, I grew up hunting the blues, I cherish that place and know it is not being managed to its full potential. I never saw a spike during season, was thrilled with the occasional cow tag, and knew where I would go if I ever got drawn... I moved to Idaho. Sugar coat it however you want,  they don't favor hunters in WA. Maybe a spike season would work if you had more than a week to hunt and more hunters could be successful.   They hamstring you when you buy your tag.   You can see big bulls every day and hope for the day you can hunt them, but it never comes.  I am sad I will never kill a bull where my father and grandfather did, but am thrilled right across the Stateline I can truly hunt elk every year and bring home a bull every year.   Thats elk hunting, not settling for a walk with a rifle and seeing elk you can't shoot. Being successful once every 10 years isn't why most guys hunt, it's to put meat on the table. Don't even get me started on their failure managing the mulie herds up high, it's sickening when I am there and mulies are not present in the mountains.  Its mulie country to a T, but they aren't around. Good riddance is all I can say and spend the money wisely you sobs.

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Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: krism83 on November 04, 2013, 10:17:29 PM
Our camp as a group has gotten it down fairly well that our total cost for an elk season is fairly low. While I'm not a huge fan of how the season regulations are structured for the eastside and the success (or lack there of) we had this year is frustrating and disappointing. However the money it would cost to hunt Montana every year or even Oregon for that matter is outrageous. So we are kind of in a grit your teeth and bare it situation where we put in for quality permits for the eastside and wait or wade through the masses of westside hunters in every unit to get a rag horn or herd bull.


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Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: 300rum on November 05, 2013, 09:32:37 AM
If I had to only hunt Washington for Elk and was forced to hunt spikes in the General Season, you bet I would trade being able to hunt every year for a spike for 4-5 really good hunts during my lifetime.  The General Season is a joke and hunting spike only is a joke too.

But, then again, I can be out in the woods in September without a tag and that makes me happy too.     

If you only hunt Washington......

I would rather have an opportunity to hunt a nice bull every 10-12 years then kill a spike every year.

Seriously?  So you'd get to hunt elk like 4-5 times in your life?  Not me.

I understand and I'm looking into getting into the out of state elk hunting myself but I don't think that's a cool solution across the board  :twocents:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Easy-E on November 05, 2013, 09:51:53 AM
I saw 5 spikes this year (not counting the head in camp next to us), and over a dozen branched antler bulls. This is also the first year in maybe forever that I actually saw what I would consider "raghorns" in the Blues. Typically the bulls there go from spike to 5 point in one season. That made me ponder on this genetics thing. My crew has had our fair share of quality tags, and I'm probably in the top 1% all-time for meat packed out with boots on the ground out of the Blues. I admit that I love seeing the branched antler bulls. They are simply majestic. However, I didn't run into one hunter in the Dayton unit this year with a big bull tag. I think they could give out a few more quality tags, or maybe even set a limit where if you have too many consecutive years without a draw you become "garaunteed" for a tag. I will also mention that the spike hunting got a lot harder when the cow tags came back into play.

 :twocents:

Cheers!
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: TheHunt on November 05, 2013, 10:56:42 AM
Hmmmm,  There are many threads over the years about this.  I personally would like to see the entire state go draw only for bulls or skip every other year in the spike only units so the breading mature bulls are available to bread the cows.  Many of the units the breading bulls are the rag horns and this causes problems because the biggest, strongest bulls are the ones you would want to be the breading bulls. 

But this is all worthless as ALL the Native Tribes will not play and enforce the idea to get bigger bulls in this state. 

That is a dream...   In reality I would support the WDFW should just open up the entire state for over the counter bulls and manage the cows.  Then work through the courts with ALL the Native Tribes a new treaty for elk and deer.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: kentrek on November 05, 2013, 11:52:42 AM
So what about the guys that bust tail to kill nice bulls every year ? They just kinda get the shaft until they draw a tag because the road hunters can't seem to fill a tag ? If wa goes draw only on the west side il be going to oregon..don't limit my hunting oppertunities just cuz other people can't manage to find elk  :twocents:

Sorry if that seemed like a jab at road hunters but they have got to be the majority of folks who don't fill tags
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on November 05, 2013, 12:16:19 PM
As I've said before I'd like to see some sort of management scheme that limits the number of elk hunters in each GMU, each year, BUT I don't really care what they do until they can get a handle on the number of elk the Indians take. The WDFW and the tribes need to work together to limit harvest. There's no sense in us sacrificing in order to conserve our elk herds, if the Indians don't do the same.


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Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: mdbuck5x5 on November 05, 2013, 12:17:46 PM
So what about the guys that bust tail to kill nice bulls every year ? They just kinda get the shaft until they draw a tag because the road hunters can't seem to fill a tag ? If wa goes draw only on the west side il be going to oregon..don't limit my hunting oppertunities just cuz other people can't manage to find elk  :twocents:

Sorry if that seemed like a jab at road hunters but they have got to be the majority of folks who don't fill tags

 :yeah:  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on November 05, 2013, 12:22:21 PM
Quote
So what about the guys that bust tail to kill nice bulls every year ? They just kinda get the shaft until they draw a tag because the road hunters can't seem to fill a tag?

They wait their turn like everybody else. Same as in all the other states that elk hunting is by draw only.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: kentrek on November 05, 2013, 12:33:09 PM
Quote
So what about the guys that bust tail to kill nice bulls every year ? They just kinda get the shaft until they draw a tag because the road hunters can't seem to fill a tag?

They wait their turn like everybody else. Same as in all the other states that elk hunting is by draw only.

Why should I have to wait again ? Cuz "some people" are not having what they want even tho what they want is out there an all they gota do is go get it.....that's why I'm not gona be allowed to kill trophy bulls every year ??

Just ranting nothing personal... :tup:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Button Nubbs on November 05, 2013, 04:35:31 PM
Quote
So what about the guys that bust tail to kill nice bulls every year ? They just kinda get the shaft until they draw a tag because the road hunters can't seem to fill a tag?

They wait their turn like everybody else. Same as in all the other states that elk hunting is by draw only.

Why should I have to wait again ? Cuz "some people" are not having what they want even tho what they want is out there an all they gota do is go get it.....that's why I'm not gona be allowed to kill trophy bulls every year ??

Just ranting nothing personal... :tup:
logical aint it... If I cpuldnt chase branch bulls every year I'd be completely done with the state.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: pashok23 on November 05, 2013, 04:40:15 PM
If we go permit only you will be sitting on the sideline for along time wishing you could hunt.. Wanting to hunt bulls go to CO, MT, OR, WY, ETC. Be happy that you can hunt each year.
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: LarMar14 on November 08, 2013, 09:39:50 PM
If you don't like hunting spikes in eastern washington, then why not stay on the westside and hunt branched bulls? Thats why you get a choice right?  :twocents:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: pendoreilleadventures on November 08, 2013, 11:27:20 PM
How come people always say that the big bulls need to breed the rag horns and spikes have the same genes as the big boys...doesn't matter age or antler size bulls genetics are there day one.

Sent from my C6750 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: norsepeak on November 09, 2013, 08:34:00 AM
How come people always say that the big bulls need to breed the rag horns and spikes have the same genes as the big boys...doesn't matter age or antler size bulls genetics are there day one.

Sent from my C6750 using Tapatalk

You are correct, the genetic material is there from day one.  The notion of the "big bulls" doing the breeding was from a time when natural selection was the law of the land.  It isn't anymore.  It used to be the biggest, baddest, smartest bulls would be the ones to survive the predators and be the most desirable for breeding to pass on the genes and traits that allowed them to survive.  It doesn't apply anymore because the human predator is not limited by their cunning or fitness like a four legged predator would be.  We can nail a big bull from across a canyon that might have survived many years just dealing with four legged predators.  So now even though "raghorns" are doing a majority of the breeding, it doesn't effect the genetic makeup of the heard too badly.  Yeah it's not ideal, but it's what we have.


Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 09, 2013, 09:17:33 AM
So what about the guys that bust tail to kill nice bulls every year ? They just kinda get the shaft until they draw a tag because the road hunters can't seem to fill a tag ? If wa goes draw only on the west side il be going to oregon..don't limit my hunting oppertunities just cuz other people can't manage to find elk  :twocents:

Sorry if that seemed like a jab at road hunters but they have got to be the majority of folks who don't fill tags

 :yeah:  :chuckle:
It is funny to me how I hear about crowding, but never see other hunters back in behind closed gates.
I met a guy from Wisconsin who wanted to harvest a Roosevelt with his longbow (he made himself).
After looking at harvest reports, picked the unit I hunt.
Came out in 2011 and hiked in one of the gates near our camp, and got into some Elk but was unable to harvest one.
Came back this year with a mountain bike, rode into same area and shot a decent 5pt on second day of season.
Commented on how he was surprised that he did not see any other hunters.
Then I overheard another hunter comment on how "lucky" he was, but this hunter rarely got more than a mile from camp, or spend more than an hour or two in the woods.
I am always amazed at how many "Elk Hunters" I meet who spend more time riding around in their trucks than actually hunting, and complaining that there are no elk.
And the areas that they do get out of their trucks, is because one jumped the road in front of them.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 09, 2013, 09:22:55 AM
How come people always say that the big bulls need to breed the rag horns and spikes have the same genes as the big boys...doesn't matter age or antler size bulls genetics are there day one.

Sent from my C6750 using Tapatalk

You are correct, the genetic material is there from day one.  The notion of the "big bulls" doing the breeding was from a time when natural selection was the law of the land.  It isn't anymore.  It used to be the biggest, baddest, smartest bulls would be the ones to survive the predators and be the most desirable for breeding to pass on the genes and traits that allowed them to survive.  It doesn't apply anymore because the human predator is not limited by their cunning or fitness like a four legged predator would be.  We can nail a big bull from across a canyon that might have survived many years just dealing with four legged predators.  So now even though "raghorns" are doing a majority of the breeding, it doesn't effect the genetic makeup of the heard too badly.  Yeah it's not ideal, but it's what we have.
I also have witnessed spikes and raghorns doing the breeding while the herd bull is chasing off other raghorns and spikes than actually breeding himself.
High bull/cow ratios improve genetic diversity, large bulls only demonstrate what genes are available.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: soccerftw123 on November 26, 2013, 11:20:51 PM
So what about the guys that bust tail to kill nice bulls every year ? They just kinda get the shaft until they draw a tag because the road hunters can't seem to fill a tag ? If wa goes draw only on the west side il be going to oregon..don't limit my hunting oppertunities just cuz other people can't manage to find elk  :twocents:

Sorry if that seemed like a jab at road hunters but they have got to be the majority of folks who don't fill tags

 :yeah:  :chuckle:
It is funny to me how I hear about crowding, but never see other hunters back in behind closed gates.
I met a guy from Wisconsin who wanted to harvest a Roosevelt with his longbow (he made himself).
After looking at harvest reports, picked the unit I hunt.
Came out in 2011 and hiked in one of the gates near our camp, and got into some Elk but was unable to harvest one.
Came back this year with a mountain bike, rode into same area and shot a decent 5pt on second day of season.
Commented on how he was surprised that he did not see any other hunters.
Then I overheard another hunter comment on how "lucky" he was, but this hunter rarely got more than a mile from camp, or spend more than an hour or two in the woods.
I am always amazed at how many "Elk Hunters" I meet who spend more time riding around in their trucks than actually hunting, and complaining that there are no elk.
And the areas that they do get out of their trucks, is because one jumped the road in front of them.
Thats not my problem i got into many elk at bow range this year only problem is cant find a spike, had bulls and cows in bow range
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: stuckalot on November 27, 2013, 07:51:51 AM
If you want to finish off sport hunting in this state in a generation or two, go permit only. It is difficult enough to recruit new hunters into our ranks, try doing it when they may only get to hunt once every 4-5 years! While it may not be representative of the hunt wa community there are many many people whose hunt success is not based on how many or how big an animal they harvest. It is the time spent each year in the field with family and friends. Despite a low success rate growing up that one week in the fall was the most cherished of the entire year for me.  Had I only had one or two opportunities over that time I would have moved on to something else. While fewer hunters may seem like a great idea it will be the death of our sport.

As far as spike rules go there are actually many sound reasons for it. Primarily the very high natural mortality rate for calves and spikes. If sustainability is the goal for a herd harvesting spikes and calves has the least impact on the heard because many of them will die any way.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: sakoshooter on November 27, 2013, 09:34:26 PM
If we go permit only you will be sitting on the sideline for along time wishing you could hunt.. Wanting to hunt bulls go to CO, MT, OR, WY, ETC. Be happy that you can hunt each year.

 :yeah:

Thank you! Somebody with some sense!

Agreed
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: kerrdog on November 28, 2013, 08:14:29 AM
Lets do away with scopes and high power rifles. (except for the old and disabled)  :chuckle:  Actually I'd never want to impose my opinion on others.  But that would work, right? Bow and Muzzleloader only. :IBCOOL: 
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on November 28, 2013, 08:49:59 AM
Several other states (including Oregon) have permit only hunting for deer/elk, and it hasn't stopped kids from hunting in those states.

I have to ask- why is it that a system like that works in other states but some people insist it can't work here?

I've asked this question before and never have heard any reasonable answers.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobdog86 on November 28, 2013, 09:05:00 AM
Lets do away with scopes and high power rifles. (except for the old and disabled)  :chuckle:  Actually I'd never want to impose my opinion on others.  But that would work, right? Bow and Muzzleloader only. :IBCOOL:
Sure, Long bows only (nothing metallic) and only traditional, real flintlock smoke poles.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Button Nubbs on November 28, 2013, 08:30:35 PM
Several other states (including Oregon) have permit only hunting for deer/elk, and it hasn't stopped kids from hunting in those states.

I have to ask- why is it that a system like that works in other states but some people insist it can't work here?

I've asked this question before and never have heard any reasonable answers.
I think it can work but I go hard for mine year in year out and am successful year in year out. I don't consider myself any better of a hunter than the rest, but I do consider myself more hard working than the most. Why should I have to suffer?
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on November 28, 2013, 08:50:57 PM
Why should you have to suffer? Kind of a silly question to ask. Actually it's likely you could still hunt every year if you apply for areas that are difficult to access (wilderness.)

Also, if you don't draw one year don't you think a friend or family member might draw and you could go along to help? You'd still get to hunt, you just wouldn't be the one to pull the trigger.

I don't know but there are options. Just think of all the people in Oregon, Nevada, and Arizona who "suffer" more often than not.

I just seems to me that proper management of this state's elk is more important than every single hunter being allowed to kill an elk every year.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: rtspring on November 28, 2013, 08:57:02 PM
1. It will never go permit only. Reason is revenue.

2. If you don't like the hunting in Washington, you can go hunt one of your "permit only" states.

3. If it ever does go permit only, those that bote it in.  It wont improve hunting, only for those that dont use our regs will benefit..

4. It is what it is..  Too many people not enough animals..
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: deaner on November 28, 2013, 08:59:39 PM
Why should you have to suffer? Kind of a silly question to ask. Actually it's likely you could still hunt every year if you apply for areas that are difficult to access (wilderness.)

Also, if you don't draw one year don't you think a friend or family member might draw and you could go along to help? You'd still get to hunt, you just wouldn't be the one to pull the trigger.

I don't know but there are options. Just think of all the people in Oregon, Nevada, and Arizona who "suffer" more often than not.

I just seems to me that proper management of this state's elk is more important than every single hunter being allowed to kill an elk every year.

proper management of this states elk?  i think that more aggressive predator control options would do a lot more for our elk numbers than more restrictive hunt opportunities.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on November 28, 2013, 09:01:22 PM
Quote
2. If you don't like the hunting in Washington, you can go hunt one of your "permit only" states.

I will always hunt this state as long as I live here. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with the states method of so called "wildlife management."
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on November 28, 2013, 09:06:58 PM
Quote
proper management of this states elk?  i think that more aggressive predator control options would do a lot more for our elk numbers than more restrictive hunt opportunities.

Great idea but I don't see anything with predator management changing anytime soon. Do you? The fact is the only real change that can be made to increase deer and elk numbers, AND to improve the quality of our hunts, is to limit the number of hunters by GMU. Just as many other states do. States that have more hunters than surplus game, like this state. So why are we so different that we can have unlimited numbers of tags, with no way to control where all those people hunt?
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: 6x6in6 on November 28, 2013, 09:08:02 PM
Several other states (including Oregon) have permit only hunting for deer/elk, and it hasn't stopped kids from hunting in those states.

I have to ask- why is it that a system like that works in other states but some people insist it can't work here?

I've asked this question before and never have heard any reasonable answers.
I don't think there is a truly reasonable answer bobcat as to why.
The majority of elk hunters want the opportunity to hunt every year.  It may be just that simple, right there.
That same majority complains about over crowding but refuses to want to give up their annual tag opportunities.
Personally, I think that a system like if your hunter ID # ends with an odd number, you get the odd years.  Even gets even.  Should wind up being relatively close to cutting the hunters afield in half I would guess.  Youths, seniors, and possibly disabled and active in-state stationed military get an exemption on the odd/even.
The driving force in something like this would be revenue generation.  If the WDFW allowed everyone to still make permit applications, and if successful they were exempt from the odd/even, the WDFW may not suffer too much on the revenue take side.
The WDFW needs to step away from the thought of managing for opportunity (revenue) and manage for a quality hunting experience before anything will ever change.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: rtspring on November 28, 2013, 09:13:31 PM
Where is the big problem? 400 inch bulls? 200 inch bucks?

The elk are doing great in my unit, deer numbers are on the rebound and getting close to the early 90'S

I have no problem hunting spikes. By going permit only you still won't kill an animal every time you have a tag...
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Button Nubbs on November 28, 2013, 09:19:24 PM
Why should you have to suffer? Kind of a silly question to ask. Actually it's likely you could still hunt every year if you apply for areas that are difficult to access (wilderness.)

Also, if you don't draw one year don't you think a friend or family member might draw and you could go along to help? You'd still get to hunt, you just wouldn't be the one to pull the trigger.

I don't know but there are options. Just think of all the people in Oregon, Nevada, and Arizona who "suffer" more often than not.

I just seems to me that proper management of this state's elk is more important than every single hunter being allowed to kill an elk every year.
If I can't kill an elk every year I'm done here. Selfish? maybe, but I'm tired of people whining how crappy hunting is in this state. Its like people expect to drive down the roads and see herds of elk everywhere. I got news for yall hunting does not suck here! I don't agree on much with rtspring, but this I do. I don't want to be forced into wilderness areas because a lot of people think hunting should be easy. If I go with a friend, my freezer won't be full to the next season. Bottom line play the hand your dealt, get off your butts and go get them, they are here, there are areas that there aren't many people. Don't like it? Go somewhere else, don't ruin it for those of us that bust our asses to be successful every year.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Button Nubbs on November 28, 2013, 09:21:38 PM


I have no problem hunting spikes. By going permit only you still won't kill an animal every time you have a tag...
Winner winner chicken dinner! Bingo!
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on November 28, 2013, 09:32:03 PM
The reason for going to permit only would be number 1- to limit hunting pressure and decrease harvest. This would lead to higher numbers of elk, at least in areas that have the carrying capacity for more animals. It's pretty selfish in my opinion to think that you deserve to kill an elk every single year, when the average hunter in this state kills an elk once every twenty years. It's not about making it more "easy." It would be about managing each GMU by limiting the harvest, which they DO NOT do now. The distribution of hunters is 100% random, the WDFW does not control that in any way. As more and more of the private timber company land goes to access by permit only, the problem is going to get worse. If you hunt public land expect to have a lot more company in the future!
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: deaner on November 28, 2013, 09:40:11 PM
"The reason for going to permit only would be number 1- to limit hunting pressure and decrease harvest. This would lead to higher numbers of elk, at least in areas that have the carrying capacity for more animals. "

my core area has a very small elk [population well below its carrying capacity.  almost nobody hunts elk here.  even most of the people who live here have never seen an elk around and many of them dont believe we have them.  that being said, there is virtually no hunter pressure / harvest on the local elk, yet the population remains small and the recruitment is very poor.  its a predator problem.  decreasing the number of hunters here would do nothing, the only thing that would help the elk numbers in this area is better predator control options.  do i think its going to happen? not at all, but that IS the answer.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Button Nubbs on November 28, 2013, 09:41:02 PM
The reason for going to permit only would be number 1- to limit hunting pressure and decrease harvest. This would lead to higher numbers of elk, at least in areas that have the carrying capacity for more animals. It's pretty selfish in my opinion to think that you deserve to kill an elk every single year, when the average hunter in this state kills an elk once every twenty years. It's not about making it more "easy." It would be about managing each GMU by limiting the harvest, which they DO NOT do now. The distribution of hunters is 100% random, the WDFW does not control that in any way. As more and more of the private timber company land goes to access by permit only, the problem is going to get worse. If you hunt public land expect to have a lot more company in the future!
Why does the average hunter kill one only every twenty years? Do they study maps? Are they making 15-20 scouting trips per season? Are they running multiple cameras in different areas? Are they constantly looking to improve their situation? Does the thought of why elk do what they do cross their minds daily? I doubt they are. Oppertunity is at your finger tips, go get it!
I will agree this timber company thing is going to create a major problem. Something does need to be done about that.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on November 28, 2013, 09:43:15 PM
The main reason the success rate is so low is there are too many hunters! Period. Not enough elk.

Again, why do other states feel the need to manage by permit only hunting? Other states that actually have more elk and less people than we do? But we don't need to do that here? Why are we so different that we can continue on with basically the same management system that we've had since the 1950's?
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 28, 2013, 09:46:08 PM
Several other states (including Oregon) have permit only hunting for deer/elk, and it hasn't stopped kids from hunting in those states.

I have to ask- why is it that a system like that works in other states but some people insist it can't work here?

I've asked this question before and never have heard any reasonable answers.


It's called, WDFW.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Button Nubbs on November 28, 2013, 09:50:25 PM
The main reason the success rate is so low is there are too many hunters! Period. Not enough elk.

Again, why do other states feel the need to manage by permit only hunting? Other states that actually have more elk and less people than we do? But we don't need to do that here? Why are we so different that we can continue on with basically the same management system that we've had since the 1950's?
If that was is the case then why are there people (several on this site) who are successful every year? Itdosent seem to be a problem with the lack of elk, more so the lack of effort. Well just have to agree to disagree on this one I guess. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: 6x6in6 on November 28, 2013, 09:58:00 PM
The main reason the success rate is so low is there are too many hunters! Period. Not enough elk.

Again, why do other states feel the need to manage by permit only hunting? Other states that actually have more elk and less people than we do? But we don't need to do that here? Why are we so different that we can continue on with basically the same management system that we've had since the 1950's?
If that was is the case then why are there people (several on this site) who are successful every year? Itdosent seem to be a problem with the lack of elk, more so the lack of effort. Well just have to agree to disagree on this one I guess. :chuckle:
:chuckle:
And some of us are very successful here and out of state but we don't talk about it very much.  8)
 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: stuckalot on November 28, 2013, 10:00:30 PM
Several other states (including Oregon) have permit only hunting for deer/elk, and it hasn't stopped kids from hunting in those states.

I have to ask- why is it that a system like that works in other states but some people insist it can't work here?

I've asked this question before and never have heard any reasonable answers.
I don't think there is a truly reasonable answer bobcat as to why.
The majority of elk hunters want the opportunity to hunt every year.  It may be just that simple, right there.

The WDFW needs to step away from the thought of managing for opportunity (revenue) and manage for a quality hunting experience before anything will ever change.

By whose definition of "quality"?   And yes so far all of the surveys wdfw has done have shown that people would rather have the opportunity to hunt spikes every year than wait for the opportunity for a "quality" hunt every few years.  Which herds in this state are not meeting objectives currently due to hunter harvest?
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: 6x6in6 on November 28, 2013, 10:15:42 PM
Several other states (including Oregon) have permit only hunting for deer/elk, and it hasn't stopped kids from hunting in those states.

I have to ask- why is it that a system like that works in other states but some people insist it can't work here?

I've asked this question before and never have heard any reasonable answers.
I don't think there is a truly reasonable answer bobcat as to why.
The majority of elk hunters want the opportunity to hunt every year.  It may be just that simple, right there.

The WDFW needs to step away from the thought of managing for opportunity (revenue) and manage for a quality hunting experience before anything will ever change.

By whose definition of "quality"?   

Mine.
You cherry picked out the points of my post for your comments and questions like I just did.  But if you had left the whole thing there, you might have caught the "Personally" lead in that I had.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: soccerftw123 on December 05, 2013, 08:10:25 PM
I would also be more happy with hunting washington if the predators were controlled. I wish there was a way we could bring back bear baiting and hunt cougars with hounds. To bad we live in a liberal state ruled by Seattle.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: mdbuck5x5 on December 05, 2013, 10:46:46 PM
The reason for going to permit only would be number 1- to limit hunting pressure and decrease harvest. This would lead to higher numbers of elk, at least in areas that have the carrying capacity for more animals. It's pretty selfish in my opinion to think that you deserve to kill an elk every single year, when the average hunter in this state kills an elk once every twenty years. It's not about making it more "easy." It would be about managing each GMU by limiting the harvest, which they DO NOT do now. The distribution of hunters is 100% random, the WDFW does not control that in any way. As more and more of the private timber company land goes to access by permit only, the problem is going to get worse. If you hunt public land expect to have a lot more company in the future!

Sorry I don't tend to get into arguments but this statement in bold is probably one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever seen. I understand this is your opinion but for one where the heck do you get those numbers from? And two I'm willing to bet that most of those average hunters you talk about are road hunters which probably means that a high percentage of them won't shoot an elk year in and year out!
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on December 05, 2013, 11:06:02 PM
The reason for going to permit only would be number 1- to limit hunting pressure and decrease harvest. This would lead to higher numbers of elk, at least in areas that have the carrying capacity for more animals. It's pretty selfish in my opinion to think that you deserve to kill an elk every single year, when the average hunter in this state kills an elk once every twenty years. It's not about making it more "easy." It would be about managing each GMU by limiting the harvest, which they DO NOT do now. The distribution of hunters is 100% random, the WDFW does not control that in any way. As more and more of the private timber company land goes to access by permit only, the problem is going to get worse. If you hunt public land expect to have a lot more company in the future!

Sorry I don't tend to get into arguments but this statement in bold is probably one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever seen. I understand this is your opinion but for one where the heck do you get those numbers from? And two I'm willing to bet that most of those average hunters you talk about are road hunters which probably means that a high percentage of them won't shoot an elk year in and year out!

You can look at the harvest reports if you want numbers. But the point is, this state has too many hunters and not enough elk. Period. Why else do we have spike only seasons on the eastside? And here on the westside units that are so crowded that I don't see how anyone could possibly enjoy their hunt.

Again, why is it that states with more elk and less people than we have here, have had to resort to permit only elk hunting, yet we continue to have over the counter tags and general seasons that have no limitations whatsoever on the number of hunters in each GMU at a particular time.

There are people who have said they feel they deserve to hunt elk every single year. Why? That's what I'm questioning. Just because someone is able to kill an elk every year means he should be allowed to hunt every year? That makes no sense but that seems to be what a lot of people are saying. And that's what I said seemed selfish to me.

And yes, that is only my opinion. I sure don't think it's "ridiculous" and I think a lot of people feel the same way. This is why many people don't hunt elk in this state but instead go to other states. The elk management in this state is a total joke.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: splitshot on December 05, 2013, 11:19:40 PM
what elk, the so called master hunters shot all of them.  mike w
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: kentrek on December 06, 2013, 11:18:40 AM
Its interesting how a lot of you guys like the quality over quantity idea in regards to management of game animals but then prefere the quantity over quality aproach to jobs in washington...

I know its a complete different topic but its all resource allocation

Just a thought
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on December 06, 2013, 11:25:37 AM
what elk, the so called master hunters shot all of them.  mike w

And the few they missed will be eaten by wolves.  Soon you won't have to worry about hunting elk.  There won't be any...
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: PA BEN on December 07, 2013, 07:50:15 AM
If we go permit only you will be sitting on the sideline for along time wishing you could hunt.. Wanting to hunt bulls go to CO, MT, OR, WY, ETC. Be happy that you can hunt each year.

 :yeah:

Thank you! Somebody with some sense!
:yeah:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: dvolmer on December 10, 2013, 03:07:38 PM
Bobcat has mentioned something on this thread that is very important and hasn't been very well addressed.  People on this thread talk of Utah, Oregon, Montana, Wyoming, and other western states and try to compare there systems to ours and then figure how we are all messed up.  If we were comparing apples to apples they would have a great argument.  The problem is that we are comparing apples to oranges and it doesn't work that way.  I hunt here in my home state for elk for over 25 years and have in the last 6 or so years started hunting in Montana and Wyoming.  We here in Washington have a population issue that none of the other states everyone is talking about has and it is one of and probably the biggest factor in this equation and that population issue isn't animals either it is people.  We have close to 10 times as many people in this state as some of our neighbors have and I know we have double or more than Oregon who comes in second behind us and Oregon has much more habitat than Us also.  It just adds up to poor hunting opportunities and a lot less public land with a lot of pressure and lower quality animals unless you happen to get real lucky and draw some wonderfull quality tag.  If you have some special access opportunity it is helpfull and yes like some say, 10% of the people seem to shoot 90% of the animals year in and out. This is due to many factors that we could discuss for hours.  I have been blessed to shoot some real nice bulls here in this state and some of that has been due to being very lucky in our draw system and some of it has to do with doing my homework and working my butt off.  We are so fragile in this state that things like tribal hunting, predators, and a variety of other things can easily upset the hunting opportunities here that so many of us want but yet there is such limited areas and animals to fulfill those desires.  WDFW has their hands full for sure and I am not happy with a lot of the things they come up with but at the same time not sure what the best thing would be for out state in circumstances that we live these days.  Sorry no great answers from me other than if you do your homework you will find that the out of state hunting is more in your reach than you all realize and the costs are not as high as you might imagine.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: gonehuntin68 on December 10, 2013, 06:41:51 PM
The idea behind the spike only rule is that 90% of spikes die annually. Some from hunting, some from just being young and dumb. It's just a fact of life.

I have been hunting the BLues since '96 or '97 and can tell you the spike only rule does not hurt the bull numbers. In my opinion the largest factor on the # of mature bulls are the indians. If you don't believe me take a drive to the Blues in late September and see for your self.

I would also love to see Eastern WA go to a draw only for any antlered elk.


 :yeah:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: JM on December 10, 2013, 08:59:05 PM
As I don't agree with the way some tribes conduct their hunting seasons (yakimas) I do know that we aren't the only state with native hunting. So how you can factor that in as an excuse for this state?
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: jstone on December 10, 2013, 09:20:57 PM
Tell me why every year I hunt the taneum and I go deep but see less and less elk. Used to see bulls pushing cows all the time now I am lucky to see many? They say the herd is ok but why is it harder to find them during bow or muzzy season. And I am way past the gates?
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Houndhunter on December 10, 2013, 09:33:08 PM
Just put a feather in your hat, and you can shoot what ever you want!
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: GoPlayOutside on December 10, 2013, 09:50:55 PM
As stated earlier, Washington has a unique dynamic that Montana, Wyoming, etc don't have......Seattle, Tacoma, Spokane, etc....population.

We have a huge population compared to the size of our state, and the geographic locations of the elk.  The elk masses are found on the west coast and the central wa. mountain range.  Come time for the "very limited" hunting seasons, the whole hunting population head to the same general areas to hunt.

Wash. needs to limit tags per unit (maybe first come, first serve...like Idaho).  I'm not saying a very limited amount of tags...but do something.
However, WDFW seems to only work on behalf of their Revenue Dept., with less concern for their game management.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: ScottyG on December 11, 2013, 11:42:31 AM
Where is the big problem? 400 inch bulls? 200 inch bucks?

The elk are doing great in my unit, deer numbers are on the rebound and getting close to the early 90'S

I have no problem hunting spikes. By going permit only you still won't kill an animal every time you have a tag...

I'm with RT on this one.  I've been hunting the same area in WA for 30+ years.  There are more big bulls wandering our area's hills today than at any time since we started.  At the beginning, it was very rare to see a bull and rarer still to see a truly big bull.  Then things went to spike only tags and draw tags for big bulls.  I believe overall elk numbers are higher now than at any time in those 30 years.  I'm convinced the spike only seasons with limited big bull draw tags is the reason for the improvement in the number of bulls and the overall herd quality. 

I'd trade the antler restriction for a healthy heard and the opportunity to just see the big boys on an annual basis.  You don't really have to kill them to appreciate them.  Spikes and cows taste better anyway.  Most of the recent years, I don't think that anyone that hunts out of our camp comes away feeling that they experienced poor hunting.  Usually, its quite the opposite with many stories of the huge bulls.  People new to our camp always ask why there is a spike only limit when it seems like there are more branch bulls in our area than spikes.  Then we tell them what it used to be like and they understand.

I hunt both Washington and Oregon, so I see how both sytems work.  I hunt WA more than I hunt Oregon because I grew up there and my family members all hunt WA.  Oregon does give me the opportunity to hunt a big bull every 2-3 years on it's east side, but I can't really say that its better hunting than where I hunt in Washington from the standpoint of number of animals seen or lack of hunting pressure.  I'll admit that horn hunting has merit but its certainly not the only measure of a worthy hunt.  If you were to visit some of the different Oregon hunting internet chat sites, you'd see that many, many Oregonians are very disgruntled with the state of the hunting and herds in Oregon with most of the same concerns... poaching, predators, treaty hunting, too many roads, too much privatized land, too many hunters etc.  A common complaint is about point creep in the draw system down here.  The grass is somewhat different on the other side of the state line, but I'm not certain I'd say its better.

My opinion is that WA has got it very close to right in their method of allocation of elk tags... for WA's situation.  The improvement in elk herd numbers and big bull counts in the area I hunt speaks to the appropriateness of the rules.

For those that wish to hunt branched antlers every year, it does mean making a commitment to the west side brush, NE corner, or investing time and resources in an out of state trip.  That is neither the end of the world or an unsolvable problem. 

If its the hunting pressure that's got you upset, that can usually be solved with a little research and getting comfortable with hiking for about an hour in the dark.







Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: WSU on December 11, 2013, 11:53:43 AM
Several other states (including Oregon) have permit only hunting for deer/elk, and it hasn't stopped kids from hunting in those states.

I have to ask- why is it that a system like that works in other states but some people insist it can't work here?

I've asked this question before and never have heard any reasonable answers.

It works in Oregon because there are a lot more elk and a lot less people.  Many of the draw units are very easy to draw.  And, the westside is mostly general season with no draw.  Oregon just has a lot more options.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on December 11, 2013, 11:57:54 AM

Several other states (including Oregon) have permit only hunting for deer/elk, and it hasn't stopped kids from hunting in those states.

I have to ask- why is it that a system like that works in other states but some people insist it can't work here?

I've asked this question before and never have heard any reasonable answers.

It works in Oregon because there are a lot more elk and a lot less people.  Many of the draw units are very easy to draw.  And, the westside is mostly general season with no draw.  Oregon just has a lot more options.

Which is why we have even more reason to distribute and limit hunters in a more managed way, rather than the random, free for all it is now.


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Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: csaaphill on December 11, 2013, 12:07:28 PM
from what I know they did it to up the bull cow ratio and older bulls not sure how it works but have seen some awesome bulls gotten since they've reopened special permits for any bulls.
That said I'd like them to change things up, but not permit only crap Oregon sucks! for how they manage their hunting. seems like it's pretty much first come first served when it comes to who gets deer and elk permits.
I like it over the counter leave it alone! >:(
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: ScottyG on December 18, 2013, 01:10:54 PM
http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=569537 (http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=569537)

Attached is a pretty good example of the kind of dialogue that you can find among Oregonians related to the Oregon draw system.

The grass is not always greener on the other side.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: pd on December 18, 2013, 01:33:48 PM
http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=569537 (http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=569537)

Attached is a pretty good example of the kind of dialogue that you can find among Oregonians related to the Oregon draw system.

The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Thank you for posting that link!  Very informative.  The grass really isn't greener on the other side of the river.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: KopperBuck on December 18, 2013, 02:12:00 PM
Bingo. It's frustrating to say the least.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on December 18, 2013, 02:16:41 PM
http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=569537 (http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=569537)

Attached is a pretty good example of the kind of dialogue that you can find among Oregonians related to the Oregon draw system.

The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Thank you for posting that link!  Very informative.  The grass really isn't greener on the other side of the river.

Actually, it is. They have much better hunting than we do, and that's due mostly because they have draw only hunts for deer and elk on the east side of the state.

If you read the ifish thread you would have seen that many of the posts are saying they would like to do away with the general season hunts and make EVERYTHING by draw only, including archery hunts and deer and elk on the west side of the state.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: et1702 on December 18, 2013, 02:34:22 PM
http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=569537 (http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=569537)

Attached is a pretty good example of the kind of dialogue that you can find among Oregonians related to the Oregon draw system.

The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Thank you for posting that link!  Very informative.  The grass really isn't greener on the other side of the river.

Actually, it is. They have much better hunting than we do, and that's due mostly because they have draw only hunts for deer and elk on the east side of the state.

If you read the ifish thread you would have seen that many of the posts are saying they would like to do away with the general season hunts and make EVERYTHING by draw only, including archery hunts and deer and elk on the west side of the state.

Deer on east side of Oregon is draw only.  But, there are several over-the-counter eastside areas where you can hunt bull elk every year with a bow.

Bob, I agree that WDFW is doing a terrible job managing our elk and deer resources.  But, I definitely disagree with "draw only" for everybody east and west in WA.  As Dave V. mentioned, the issue really isn't necessarily number of animals, it's number of people we have in this state!  Too many!!!  If we went to draw only everywhere, the best units would be just like trying to draw a "Quality Tag" and the remaining units would still be overcrowded vs. number of available critters (i.e., large number of hunters jammed into a small range of productive habitat).

ET
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on December 18, 2013, 02:56:44 PM
I'm not sure how you can say the WDFW is doing a terrible job if you agree with the unlimited tags, and no management whatsoever system the WDFW is currently using.

Because they are doing a great job for the people who want to hunt deer and elk every single year, whether there are any animals to shoot or not.

In this state there is no need for planning ahead. Buy your deer and elk tags at anytime, even during the season, and hunt any GMU in the entire state. Well, in the case of elk you do have to pick east or west.

But that's it. That is the entire management scheme, that's how they manage the number of hunters in each GMU, and that is how the WDFW regulates the number of animals harvested by GMU. Which is to say, they DO NOT manage. All they do is sell licenses and tags. They're not concerned with excessive harvest in certain units.

You're right- we do have too many people in this state- too many people who want to hunt deer and elk every single year! And that is why we need some kind of management to limit the number of hunters by Game Management Unit.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: buckfvr on December 18, 2013, 03:24:57 PM
Open general season in the region you live in, permit only for other regions.   :yike:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: vandeman17 on December 18, 2013, 03:38:37 PM
I think if the WDFW really did some management work and research then they could come up with how many deer or elk per unit of each sex should be taken to maintain the most healthy population. Then based on the success rate data, they would issue x amount of tags per unit that anyone would be able to apply for. When we bought our license, I think we should be able to apply for something like 5-10 units per species. People might complain that they can't draw a nicer unit but it would be their choice to apply for that versus one that maybe has a higher quota and less people that apply. I would also like to see not just a buck or bull tag but things like maybe two point buck only tags in some of the units where they have started to dominate. This would take some effort by WDFW but I think with the amount of money we spend that it isn't too much to expect...
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: BOHNTR on December 18, 2013, 04:07:19 PM
 Living at the foot of the Blues I have seen the Elk population grow and shrink, I think the bull to cow ratio is pretty high.....but the number of permits seem to shrink every year. the Muzzleloaders used to have a cow hunt if you got drawn that used to be 100-125, now it's 60. There are wolves in the area but WDFW doesn't count them as a breeding pair because they breed in Ore. which is only a stones throw away, the Cougars have increased as well as the bears, so calf survival isn't the best any more. Until WDFW wants to get serious about predator control i.e. allowing hounds for cougar and expanding the spring bear season by allowing OTC tags and not making it a draw only, I don't see anything getting any better.
The point system is OK however it takes on average 10-12 years to get drawn. 
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: ScottyG on December 18, 2013, 04:47:51 PM
http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=569537 (http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=569537)

Attached is a pretty good example of the kind of dialogue that you can find among Oregonians related to the Oregon draw system.

The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Thank you for posting that link!  Very informative.  The grass really isn't greener on the other side of the river.

Actually, it is. They have much better hunting than we do, and that's due mostly because they have draw only hunts for deer and elk on the east side of the state.

If you read the ifish thread you would have seen that many of the posts are saying they would like to do away with the general season hunts and make EVERYTHING by draw only, including archery hunts and deer and elk on the west side of the state.

Well, that is certainly one interpretation of the content and value of that string, but its not the only interpretation.  Many of the posts are about the unhappiness of people with the Oregon draw system and about the hunting being a shadow of what it once was.  Oregon's system is no panacea.  Its just a different way of dolling out an ever shrinking pie to an ever growing number of people who want a piece.  The Oregon system has created a hunter base that is just as disgruntled with ODFW and the ODFW system as the people on this forum seem to be, in general, with the WDFW and the WDFW system for allocating tags and managing the resource.  My only reason for posting was to point out to all the people that think Oregon is the land of great hunting and great hunting opportunity, that many Oregonians would completely disagree. 

Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on December 18, 2013, 05:00:34 PM
Quote
My only reason for posting was to point out to all the people that think Oregon is the land of great hunting and great hunting opportunity, that many Oregonians would completely disagree. 

I understand. But see, those people that aren't happy with the hunting in Oregon probably haven't hunted here! And they're unhappy because of the perceived mis-management, but at least the ODFW attempts to manage the resource, by allocating a certain number of tags to each unit. Whereas the WDFW does no such thing.

In fact the WDFW is so hell bent on selling as many tags as possible that they allow people to purchase their deer and elk tags AFTER they kill an animal. (No, not legal but it happens since there is no deadline to buy your tags)
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: KopperBuck on December 18, 2013, 05:31:12 PM
Quote
My only reason for posting was to point out to all the people that think Oregon is the land of great hunting and great hunting opportunity, that many Oregonians would completely disagree. 

I understand. But see, those people that aren't happy with the hunting in Oregon probably haven't hunted here! And they're unhappy because of the perceived mis-management, but at least the ODFW attempts to manage the resource, by allocating a certain number of tags to each unit. Whereas the WDFW does no such thing.

In fact the WDFW is so hell bent on selling as many tags as possible that they allow people to purchase their deer and elk tags AFTER they kill an animal. (No, not legal but it happens since there is no deadline to buy your tags)

I've hunted both my whole life, there's benefits to both. Point creep in Oregon is atrocious. You don't have to declare a weapon, so folks put in for tough units, don't draw, and then pick up a bow. Or for deer, those on the WETside put in over here, don't draw, and hunt general over there. I've given up on thinking about drawing some of the harder units, and probably be 10-15 yrs before I draw a goat tag. I like the sheep and goat format.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on December 18, 2013, 05:42:07 PM
Point creep....yep and that's why people on ifish were saying they need to do away with ALL the general seasons including archery. Make it all permit only. That way people can't continue to hunt every year while building up points for some of the better hunts.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: et1702 on December 18, 2013, 05:44:17 PM
I'm not sure how you can say the WDFW is doing a terrible job if you agree with the unlimited tags, and no management whatsoever system the WDFW is currently using.

Because they are doing a great job for the people who want to hunt deer and elk every single year, whether there are any animals to shoot or not.

In this state there is no need for planning ahead. Buy your deer and elk tags at anytime, even during the season, and hunt any GMU in the entire state. Well, in the case of elk you do have to pick east or west.

But that's it. That is the entire management scheme, that's how they manage the number of hunters in each GMU, and that is how the WDFW regulates the number of animals harvested by GMU. Which is to say, they DO NOT manage. All they do is sell licenses and tags. They're not concerned with excessive harvest in certain units.

You're right- we do have too many people in this state- too many people who want to hunt deer and elk every single year! And that is why we need some kind of management to limit the number of hunters by Game Management Unit.

They do manage it by making us choose our weapon (Archery, ML or Modern).  Based on the percentage of each user group, they also allow more open units (i.e., rifle gets greater number than archery, archery = > number than ML).  As an archery guy, I really only have three or four eastside elk units that I can hunt each year, and only a couple of those open to cow or spike.  Yes, i know there are more than 3 or 4 units open on the east side, but if I'm going to drive all the way to the NE corner, I might as well pick up an Idaho tag too...LOL.  Plus, the percentage of Bull tags or Buck tags, Sheep, etc. are based on the hunter success of each group and the number of hunters.  Plus, the overall number of hunters in WA leveled out several years ago and has been dropping.  The issue w/ too many people is that there are too many other user groups that are competing w/hunters now, too much private property, too much pay for access, too many wolves, no real regulation of native american harvest numbers or practices, etc, etc, etc.

It's a very complicated issue.  But, in no way do we have unlimited tags in WA.  If it was unlimited, I'd be able to hunt all three weapon seasons and pick any unit statewide that I wanted to hunt.  Guess what, I still remember being able to do this 30 to 40+ years ago growing up in New Mex and AZ.  Not possible anymore due to population growth and other user groups in these states as well as all other western US states.  the main problem I have w/WDFW is that they really don't know how many critters of each species we actually have in this state.  When was the last time they did a real population survey, instead of just a quick fly-over?  It's been a very long time.  Also, can anyone tell me why the wolf biologist is also the Mule deer bio in the Winthrop/Okanogon area.  Seems like a BIG conflict of interest to me!

ET

Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on December 18, 2013, 05:54:05 PM
ET, that is not wildlife management in my opinion. People management, maybe. But you said it yourself- the WDFW does not know how many animals are in each unit. And they do not allocate a specific number of tags to be used in each GMU. They rely on total randomness. Hunters in general, can hunt any unit they want. How does the WDFW know the proper number of animals will be taken out of each unit? They don't. And they have no control over how many people hunt in each unit every year. What exactly are their wildlife biologists being paid to do?
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: KopperBuck on December 18, 2013, 05:57:12 PM
Point creep....yep and that's why people on ifish were saying they need to do away with ALL the general seasons including archery. Make it all permit only. That way people can't continue to hunt every year while building up points for some of the better hunts.

I don't agree with getting your 2nd - 4th choices and keeping your points. Or how about building points while taking LOP tags (I'm guilty....).
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: KopperBuck on December 18, 2013, 05:58:56 PM
Another difference between Oregon and Washington is something around 3 million people.
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: Alan K on December 18, 2013, 06:11:59 PM
Open general season in the region you live in, permit only for other regions.   :yike:

Man, wouldn't that be nice!  :drool:
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: kentrek on December 18, 2013, 06:25:47 PM
I have an idea...

Lets just raise the price of tags to 10x the current amount..the folks that view hunting as a priority will fork out the coin every year an the ones that don't ( road hunters) won't even go hunting thus reducing the hunting presure significantly..the ones who can't afford it on a yearly based will just have to save there pennies until one day being able cash in an get a tag..

While this was written in sarcasm font its resembles the same outcome as a draw only system

The funny thing about resource allocation is there's many way to achieve the same result so why chose a method that cuts oppertunity ??

Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: bobcat on December 18, 2013, 06:41:42 PM
Quote
The funny thing about resource allocation is there's many way to achieve the same result so why chose a method that cuts oppertunity ??

What method is there that would reduce the number of hunters in the field and NOT reduce opportunity?  ???
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: kentrek on December 18, 2013, 07:01:02 PM
Quote
The funny thing about resource allocation is there's many way to achieve the same result so why chose a method that cuts oppertunity ??

What method is there that would reduce the number of hunters in the field and NOT reduce opportunity?  ???

Its a density problem (or demand problem for you econ guys)

To decrease density you must increase the area...to decrease demand you must increase supply..

Open up more areas for people to hunt every year an people will spread out thus reducing the over all hunting pressure for each area...so yes I'm referring to removing permit areas..I beleive this would have the same impact to the elk herd as a permit system yet still give us oppertunity

Just look what has happened with wecco going permit only ? The amount of people forced down south to hunt must have been huge..it only makes sense that the revearse would be just the opposite trend...so why wouldn't it work with opening draw areas aswell ??
Title: Re: Eastern Washington Elk
Post by: kentrek on December 18, 2013, 07:04:09 PM
I'm not being very brilliant with words tonight so hopefully I conveyed my point well
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