Post by: Coreym8565 on November 08, 2013, 02:08:03 AM
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Post by: Expedition Scout on November 08, 2013, 05:50:09 AM
I guess the big question is will you be camping nearby your truck or are you planning to hike in to camp. Too totally different answers for that.
Post by: ICEMAN on November 08, 2013, 07:14:45 AM
Have multiple changes of clothing ready for use.
Only use poly type clothing, no cotton. Wool OK too.
Change into dry thermals before bedtime...
Bring some extra blankets for over and under your sleeping bag.
Sleep with a stocking cap on, light gloves on too if needed.
Increase your water intake. Winter is actually a great time to get dehydrated. Your normal skin relative humidity (Rh) level is high; at about 85%. Winter weather is way way lower, sometimes down in the 10-15% Rh, and this offset causes your skin to pump tons of moisture to the surface to keep things moist. The low winter humidity evaporates off your moisture, your skin gets dry, cracks, your eyes feel dry or irritated, your lips crack, all because of the low humidity of winter weather. Even in a snow storm. You really need to crank up the water intake. Your pee should be only slightly yellow to clear, not dark yellow (sign of dehydration).
Avoid caffeine, (a vasoconstrictor) it shrinks your veins and reduces blood flow to your hands/feet making you feel cold.
Avoid alcohol, (a vasodilator) it opens your veins and allows your body to cool at the surface (skin), more so than it normally would as your body attempts to regulate heat.
Warm drinks are a good option too, non-caff cocoa, non-caff teas, coffees, etc. The kids really like warm jello drinks, warm tang, warm lemonade, warm apple cider, etc...
Extra calories in your diet are in order for a winter camp trip, extra calories = extra body heat.
Good luck.
Post by: tonymiller7 on November 08, 2013, 07:36:03 AM
Post by: Coreym8565 on November 08, 2013, 12:58:09 PM
Mummy sleeping bag, extra tarps to make a slant to to drain snow and water.... I guess a good question to ask is how difficult is starting a fire? I plan on bringing a little, but we usually cut the real small trees down for more when we go camping. I really appreciate everybody taking the time to help me out.
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Post by: Coreym8565 on November 08, 2013, 01:03:58 PM
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Post by: LndShrk on November 08, 2013, 01:09:10 PM
Fill it with boiling hot water and throw it in your sleeping bag just before bed. It will keep you warm all night long..
Post by: swanny on November 08, 2013, 01:32:45 PM
Post by: Mxracer532 on November 08, 2013, 01:38:24 PM
Post by: Wild Bill on November 08, 2013, 03:25:10 PM
Ive done a TON of arctic camping.
From -45 out on the North slopes, to Rainier, Whitney, to late muley hunts. Ive done several weeks in the snow with very little....
- ALWAYS bring a sleeping pad. 2 if you can afford it (weight/ space wise). If you dont, make a bow bed, grass bed, stick bed... Whatever bed, just GET OF THE GROUND. The best bag in the world wont keep you warm if you dont.
- I prefer to avoid a bivy if its real cold. They condensate. ALL OF THEM (to some degree).
- If its not real cold (I use below freezing as a measure), i use a bivy as the rain becomes a factor.
- Putting a warm liquid container in bed with you is not a bad idea (do it myself), but a risk. Kinda a big one. If it leaks/ opens...... You may not wake up.
- Synthetic bag.... No down. People will chime in, your call who to listen to. I have lived off my back for 28 straight days, in sub zero temps. with a quality synthetic bag. No drama.
- Spent 7 days on a 72 mile voyage with a Mt Hardwear phantom 0. Great bag. I burn hot, and condensation was present as I slept. Down loses all insulation value when wet. I slept the last 3 days on a fire bed in all my cold gear. Not worth the risk!!!! Dont trade compression/weight for safety/comfort.
-Hit up a surplus store, and get a old Army camo blanket. Throw it in the bottom of your bag. It will help keep your feet warm. If the bottom falls out of the temp, pull it up to your vitals. It will raise the temp rating on your bag 10-15 degrees.
- If you bag is improperly fit (yes, there is a bag design for each body), fold the excess under your feet at night. Your body will try to warm up all the excess, and your warmth will be reduced as a result.
- Place your shoes OUTSIDE but under your sleeping bag at night. Learned the hard way that boot laces are capable of freezing to the point they are like a coat hanger or a phone pole (had some i could place on the ground and laces were paralell the ground :o). This also helps (though very, very little) with drying your boots.
- Socks, Socks, Socks. If your socks (or any clothing item) is the slightest bit damp. Change it out. It will pull the heat straight out of you. A bag will not slow it down much either.
- Put your battery powered items in your bag at night. I wrap them in a dry jacket, and use them as a pillow. Batteries are fine in cold weather UNTIL they have been activated. Then a little satanic *censored* known as cold soaking WILL creep up on you while your not looking. Dead batts...
- Kinda a debatable topic. Some say sleep as close to naked as possible. Some say wear all base and thermal layers. I would start the coldest and find out what works for you. If you wake up cold, put a thermal top on. Then bottoms etc... Dont go hot all at once or your bag will start to condensate.
- If you choose to rock a bivy, put all your outer garments between your bivy and your bag (if they're dry). It will keep them from freezing, and its much nicer to put on a kinda warm top then a freezing top.
- Water freezes from the top down. Think rivers lakes etc... So if you use a nalgene, or canteen (suggested) turn it upside down before bed. The top (really the bottom as you drink) will be frozen but the threads will not be. During the day do the same thing, unless you have a insulator. If you use a camelback..... Brave! Ive done it, but it sucks. Typically your hose freezes. If you route it under your armpit, and stow the mouth valve in a pocket you stand a chance of not freezing your line.
- Always bring spare socks.
- A way to intake HOT liquids is almost a must. Unless your harder than woodpecker lips, you'll appreciate it. Even if its water.
- Chapstick. A MUST!!!!!!!!!
- If your using a tent instead of a bivy, make an effort to keep the snow outside. It will warm up, melt, and make life hell. (this is mainly if your cooking in the tent as well. Not preferred, but at times necessary).
- If the bottom washes out of the temp, and your face is cold, place a t shirt around your head. Or bring a scarf. Your body will burn a ton of energy, water, and heat trying to warm your breath as you take in air. This will help a ton. It is very noticeable. A neck gator by smart wool is one of my favorites.
- If its real cold and your a restless sleeper (most new winter campers are), dont use the hoody in your bag for anything more than a pillow case. Instead, wear a nice thick beanie, and a face wrap/ neck gator. You will breath all over your sleeping bag making the face hole an ice box. It doesn't seem to freeze folks up as much as its uncomfortable and keeps them awake. Kinda funny.
- As already mentioned, dehydration in winter is way more common than most other seasons as you do not "feel" the need to drink. Just know that. Your fuel consumption will skyrocket. Carbs are not a bad thing for a winter camper.
- Eat just before bed. As your core digests food, it creates heat. :twocents:
- If you can help it, pitch a bivy under a large STURDY tree. If snow hits, it will help keep you from being buried. The down fall, if the wind hits you may get buried in a even less desirable way!
- Then all the normal stuff applies. Fire starter, knife, yadda yadda yadda......
Remember this. Condensation kills. Its better to be slightly cool (not cold) while sleeping/ hunting at than toasty. If you have a wall tent or a camper... Different story....
A cold camp is a mans camp!
Eitherway, you will likely learn something about yourself which is always a good thing. I have seen the toughest SOB's reduced to nothing from being cold and wet for days on end, so dont feel bad if your motivation starts to waiver a little. I'd bet it will, but just drive on man. If you leave because it's "kinda sucking", you'll wish you never had, and you most definitely will wish you were "back in the suck"....
:twocents: :twocents:
WB
Post by: Wild Bill on November 08, 2013, 03:31:50 PM
All your doing is keeping the fire from burning to through the snow before it can get a coal bed. Dont build a fire on more than a few feet or your waisting time/ resources. Dig out a fire pit to the ground then start her up. It will be a mud bath though. And a platform may still be necessary as the water from the melt will dick up your coal bed.
Try using cotton balls and Vaseline. Great stuff. Can almost catch a puddle on fire (DBHAWTHORNE might be able to anyhow).
If its more wet than anything, break the low lying bows off the standing trees. If its real wet, break them open with a sturdy knife. Ive seen times when thats the only dry stuff in the forest. Dont pick stuff up off the wet ground and expect it to burn right away. It will after it smokes you aout and drys off.
WB
Post by: buck man on November 08, 2013, 03:32:55 PM
all kidding aside. I have winter camped multiple times in sub zero temps. It was fun and gratifying. Just remember more clothes on your body at night usually means a cold night of sleep! Get a good quality bag. Remember the cold ground will sap your heat faster than anything. A good insulating pad is a must( even evergreen boughs work well. One night -10 and slept well on 5" of boughs).take off your hunting clothes. You may think you will stay warmer with them on but you have lots of trapped moisture in them from your own body, and this will chill you. If you have a good tent great, but don't let that discourage you. I have slept very well with a cheap tarp cover configured into a diamond fly at 9000' in Oregon and it snowed on us every day for 4 days. Don't let the weather scare you just know your options. Good boots, bag and shelter, and of course clothing and you will have a ball and build your. Hunting and camping self esteem!! Good luck and stick a goodun!
Post by: Coreym8565 on November 08, 2013, 03:42:09 PM
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Post by: huntnnw on November 08, 2013, 03:48:01 PM
Post by: wafisherman on November 08, 2013, 03:56:14 PM
You can buy a box of pocket warmers at Costco. I throw one or 2 down by my feet and one or 2 as need up above by my hands and main body area. They last from 4-10 hours and really make things nice. I camp with my kids and these things really have saved the trip for them.
Definately get insulation from the ground. And you'd be surprised at how uncomfortable snow can be to camp on. Every foot print and spot your rest your knee makes a lump. I try to pack down the area I'm setting my tent on as tight as possible first thing.
Watch the condensation. A good winter tent will be able to handle it, but just be aware. Too much and you start getting your clothes, boots, sleeping bag damp. Damp is dangerous.
Instead of cotton, I have taken typical toilet paper and smeared vasolline on it, then rolled it up. Easier to work with as you can touch it, store it, etc cleanly - all the messy stuff is rolled up inside.
Melting snow for water is much harder than it sounds. Fill a big pot with snow and melt it - and you get a cup of water if you are lucky... You can use those pocket warmers or the tape on toe warmers to keep your water bottles warm during the night as well.
And I always pop a few tylenol PM or advil PM before bed or else I won't sleep now days...
Post by: Toptwo on November 08, 2013, 05:37:17 PM
Post by: 12Gauge on November 08, 2013, 05:48:10 PM
Post by: BKMFR on November 08, 2013, 06:10:12 PM
Hats off to you guys!
Very Refreshing- Thank You!
Post by: bigmacc on November 08, 2013, 06:22:21 PM
Just so happens most of my camping seems to involve a negative in the temperature talk.
Ive done a TON of arctic camping.
From -45 out on the North slopes, to Rainier, Whitney, to late muley hunts. Ive done several weeks in the snow with very little....
- ALWAYS bring a sleeping pad. 2 if you can afford it (weight/ space wise). If you dont, make a bow bed, grass bed, stick bed... Whatever bed, just GET OF THE GROUND. The best bag in the world wont keep you warm if you dont.
- I prefer to avoid a bivy if its real cold. They condensate. ALL OF THEM (to some degree).
- If its not real cold (I use below freezing as a measure), i use a bivy as the rain becomes a factor.
- Putting a warm liquid container in bed with you is not a bad idea (do it myself), but a risk. Kinda a big one. If it leaks/ opens...... You may not wake up.
- Synthetic bag.... No down. People will chime in, your call who to listen to. I have lived off my back for 28 straight days, in sub zero temps. with a quality synthetic bag. No drama.
- Spent 7 days on a 72 mile voyage with a Mt Hardwear phantom 0. Great bag. I burn hot, and condensation was present as I slept. Down loses all insulation value when wet. I slept the last 3 days on a fire bed in all my cold gear. Not worth the risk!!!! Dont trade compression/weight for safety/comfort.
-Hit up a surplus store, and get a old Army camo blanket. Throw it in the bottom of your bag. It will help keep your feet warm. If the bottom falls out of the temp, pull it up to your vitals. It will raise the temp rating on your bag 10-15 degrees.
- If you bag is improperly fit (yes, there is a bag design for each body), fold the excess under your feet at night. Your body will try to warm up all the excess, and your warmth will be reduced as a result.
- Place your shoes OUTSIDE but under your sleeping bag at night. Learned the hard way that boot laces are capable of freezing to the point they are like a coat hanger or a phone pole (had some i could place on the ground and laces were paralell the ground :o). This also helps (though very, very little) with drying your boots.
- Socks, Socks, Socks. If your socks (or any clothing item) is the slightest bit damp. Change it out. It will pull the heat straight out of you. A bag will not slow it down much either.
- Put your battery powered items in your bag at night. I wrap them in a dry jacket, and use them as a pillow. Batteries are fine in cold weather UNTIL they have been activated. Then a little satanic *censored* known as cold soaking WILL creep up on you while your not looking. Dead batts...
- Kinda a debatable topic. Some say sleep as close to naked as possible. Some say wear all base and thermal layers. I would start the coldest and find out what works for you. If you wake up cold, put a thermal top on. Then bottoms etc... Dont go hot all at once or your bag will start to condensate.
- If you choose to rock a bivy, put all your outer garments between your bivy and your bag (if they're dry). It will keep them from freezing, and its much nicer to put on a kinda warm top then a freezing top.
- Water freezes from the top down. Think rivers lakes etc... So if you use a nalgene, or canteen (suggested) turn it upside down before bed. The top (really the bottom as you drink) will be frozen but the threads will not be. During the day do the same thing, unless you have a insulator. If you use a camelback..... Brave! Ive done it, but it sucks. Typically your hose freezes. If you route it under your armpit, and stow the mouth valve in a pocket you stand a chance of not freezing your line.
- Always bring spare socks.
- A way to intake HOT liquids is almost a must. Unless your harder than woodpecker lips, you'll appreciate it. Even if its water.
- Chapstick. A MUST!!!!!!!!!
- If your using a tent instead of a bivy, make an effort to keep the snow outside. It will warm up, melt, and make life hell. (this is mainly if your cooking in the tent as well. Not preferred, but at times necessary).
- If the bottom washes out of the temp, and your face is cold, place a t shirt around your head. Or bring a scarf. Your body will burn a ton of energy, water, and heat trying to warm your breath as you take in air. This will help a ton. It is very noticeable. A neck gator by smart wool is one of my favorites.
- If its real cold and your a restless sleeper (most new winter campers are), dont use the hoody in your bag for anything more than a pillow case. Instead, wear a nice thick beanie, and a face wrap/ neck gator. You will breath all over your sleeping bag making the face hole an ice box. It doesn't seem to freeze folks up as much as its uncomfortable and keeps them awake. Kinda funny.
- As already mentioned, dehydration in winter is way more common than most other seasons as you do not "feel" the need to drink. Just know that. Your fuel consumption will skyrocket. Carbs are not a bad thing for a winter camper.
- Eat just before bed. As your core digests food, it creates heat. :twocents:
- If you can help it, pitch a bivy under a large STURDY tree. If snow hits, it will help keep you from being buried. The down fall, if the wind hits you may get buried in a even less desirable way!
- Then all the normal stuff applies. Fire starter, knife, yadda yadda yadda......
Remember this. Condensation kills. Its better to be slightly cool (not cold) while sleeping/ hunting at than toasty. If you have a wall tent or a camper... Different story....
A cold camp is a mans camp!
Eitherway, you will likely learn something about yourself which is always a good thing. I have seen the toughest SOB's reduced to nothing from being cold and wet for days on end, so dont feel bad if your motivation starts to waiver a little. I'd bet it will, but just drive on man. If you leave because it's "kinda sucking", you'll wish you never had, and you most definitely will wish you were "back in the suck"....
:twocents: :twocents:
WB
Sounds familiar..are you SF. My brother was an instructor down at Bragg...If not,its still spot on advice!
Post by: TheHunt on November 08, 2013, 06:52:49 PM
Have you any experience with the Kifaru Tipis? They have a floor and a stove.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 08, 2013, 06:58:19 PM
Post by: Wild Bill on November 08, 2013, 07:03:43 PM
10:1. Thats the ration of snow=water. 10 parts snow, 1 part water.
Ice is 1:1.
You do NEED to start with water in the pan if you use a jet boil or hot burning camp stove, or it will evaporate it faster than it will melt it. If you use a slow burning stove, or the fire it should be fine with no water to start.
Love this topic... Lots and lots of hard lessons learned here. Keep up the tips, questions....
WB
Post by: Wild Bill on November 08, 2013, 07:04:40 PM
Wild Bill,
Have you any experience with the Kifaru Tipis? They have a floor and a stove.
Sure dont.
Mainly bivy/ pack tent and wall tent experiences.
WB
Post by: Toptwo on November 08, 2013, 07:16:15 PM
Thanks!
Post by: Easy-E on November 08, 2013, 08:12:00 PM
Cheers!
Post by: PA BEN on November 08, 2013, 08:26:45 PM
Post by: MLHSN on November 08, 2013, 08:51:25 PM
I differ with others on down bags. The new ones have a pretty good water resistant layer so it takes quite a good soaking for it to affect the down. That being said, you need to make sure whatever you are wearing is dry when you get in the bag.
Post by: Wild Bill on November 08, 2013, 08:59:49 PM
Make sure you have chapstick with an SPF value. Snow reflects the sun, so you get it twice. I forgot sunblock and my chapstick once on a dawn untill dusk snowshoe trip. My lips turned into my solid set of blisters they were so fried. It took two weeks for them to heal. Not to mention the raccoon sunburn.
I differ with others on down bags. The new ones have a pretty good water resistant layer so it takes quite a good soaking for it to affect the down. That being said, you need to make sure whatever you are wearing is dry when you get in the bag.
I have heard this about the newer bags. I have scars for life now though!!! Especially since a lot of the new synthetic stuff is so light.
What down bag you run?
WB
Post by: Wild Bill on November 08, 2013, 09:03:14 PM
WB, out of all the bags you have tried, what brand/model did you like best? I had a down bag all picked out for myself, The Feathered Friends: Swift UL20. However, since you said what you did about down bags, and since I live on the wet side of the state, I am rethinking that pick.
Thanks!
I run an Mountain hardwear bag thats about 6. I cannot for the life of me recall the name or model. That being said, find a bag that fits your size, temp range, and weight desires. If its a quality name, you wont be disappointed.
I really hate to steer folks to my liking in gear. I am pretty picky. I do stand by the synthetic comment though.
WB
Post by: MLHSN on November 08, 2013, 09:53:39 PM
I will say this though, there are more bags then not that are 650-fill down bags. 650-fill is the cutoff where synthetic insulation saves as much weight as down. I managed to buy my bag for $150 when they were clearing them out for next year's model. But if you want an 800 or 850-fill down bag then you might be paying $250-400 and up. If the down bag you can afford is only 650 then I suggest getting a good synthetic bag because they aren't really saving any weight.
I ended up having some rain blowing in sideways under my tarp one night and got my bag pretty good while I was sleeping. The water just beeded on the outside of the bag and didn't affect the down loft at all when I woke up in the morning, the ground was soaked around me. That being said, I sure wouldn't want it in standing water. The fabric on the inside is different then the outside though so what you want to protect is getting water or sweat on the inside.
Post by: MLHSN on November 08, 2013, 10:01:38 PM
http://www.golite.com/Mens-Z10-Three-Season-Regular-P46945.aspx (http://www.golite.com/Mens-Z10-Three-Season-Regular-P46945.aspx)
The pertex shell really helps repel water. There are a lot of good bags out there with synthetic insulation also. The difference is only going to be 1/2-1 pound from a synthetic bag. If you are going to be camping near a truck and not 10 mi. back in I would say go with a cheap and heavy bag that will be comfy and warm. I have my car camping sleeping bags and I have my backpacking bags. It's really important to check user reviews. I've used high-end bags that were supposedly 20 deg. bags and I froze my arse off at 30 deg. User reviews are usually a pretty good indicator of whether the bag is true to it's advertised temp rating.
edit: One other trick I do: I have a 40 deg.ultralight bag and a 20 deg. ultralight bag. The 20 deg. bag is my usual go to. During the winter time I just take both and flop the the 40 deg bag over the top of my 20 deg bag. It's a lot cheaper combo them having a summer and winter bag. It's also not that much of a weight difference in the end.
Post by: Wild Bill on November 09, 2013, 07:50:08 AM
edit: One other trick I do: I have a 40 deg.ultralight bag and a 20 deg. ultralight bag. The 20 deg. bag is my usual go to. During the winter time I just take both and flop the the 40 deg bag over the top of my 20 deg bag. It's a lot cheaper combo them having a summer and winter bag. It's also not that much of a weight difference in the end.
See, We agree on things!
Lol... Great tip. I do the same. If it ends up not being cold enough for the combo, its now a real comfy add on to the mattresses.
A big thing, when you are cold camping your most likely running heavy anyhow. Whats another pound. Especially the one time on your trip when you could be comfortable! Sleeping.
MLHSN,
Do you not run into bad condensation with your down bags? I am beginning to wonder if its more of person using the bag issue. I always have a wet down bag buy the end of a 3 nighter. Even if its not in a bivy, i usually end up with a very noticeable amount of condensation.
Truth be told I only use down in mid summer months or in a camper/wall ten situation now!
Keep the tips coming.
This is a good one.
WB
Post by: kisfish on November 09, 2013, 08:20:20 AM
Post by: Expedition Scout on November 09, 2013, 09:06:14 AM
Post by: MLHSN on November 09, 2013, 11:25:04 AM
Post by: Wild Bill on November 09, 2013, 01:07:18 PM
Never have a problem with synthetic. Just down.
WB
Post by: ICEMAN on November 10, 2013, 08:45:28 AM
Moisture condensating and staying in a sleeping bag is a big problem for those camping over snow. The insulative value of a sleeping bag degrades each night that it is used unless it gets the chance to dry out some how. (This is why manmade fiber bags are a favorite for really cold weather, since they dry out better daily, and goose down bags take more time to dry.) Iditarod racers commonly end the race with sleeping bags that weighs much more than when they started. Trapped frozen water vapor... Mountain climbers fight this phenomena by sleeping inside a vapor proof liner inside their sleeping bag. This reduces the amount of water they need to consume since the skin gets moist and stops pumping water to the skins surface, plus it keeps their bag insulative value high, as no moisture becomes trapped in the fibers.
My family and I have winter camped in temperatures as low as 5 degrees with some relatively cheap sleeping bags, synthetic, rated -20 etc...
I prefer to sleep on elcheapo foam sleeping pads. We sleep on two layers of these. In our tent, we criss cross the pads so no cold spots show up in the middle of the night...
We also incorporate an unusual addition to our sleeping gear. I add something commercially sold as a beach blanket type "thingy". The item is called a "Neat Sheet". It is basically a water proof, but moisture venting type sheet to picnic on at the beach. Lightweight and soft, each sleeper has one of these thrown over their sleeping bags. The extra layer seems to trap heat loss through your sleeping bag, and creates an extra layer of warmth IMHO.... We use these alot during snow camp, as you can toss one over your shoulders if you begin to chill, sit on one to keep your rear dry, etc....
Can't wait to return to snow camping!
Post by: wafisherman on November 11, 2013, 03:02:13 PM
I have an RIE down bag I got on clearance years ago and love it for cold weather camping. Thouht I rarely camp more than 2-3 nights in a row with it, so don't know know if it would lose efficiency with more days. I just keep it off the ground, keep it away from the tent walls as much as I can, and often find myself venting it to cool down a bit - even if it is 20 degrees out.
As for what to wear, I believe it would be best to use a fleece liner, and sleep in as little clothing as possible, but in practice, I find that hard to do. First of all, I often have to get up and pee at least once. I figure i climb in around 6-7pm, and wake around 12 hours later. Even if you stay up to play cards or something, you still want to be in your bag. So when you need to get up and pee, I like to just slip on my boots or camp shoes and take care of business. Maybe throw on a jacket layer, but often not. Fleece pants, long sleeve fleece or other non cotton shirt - dry wool blend socks, and a stocking cap. This is also good because I find I stay warm enough I don't feel the need to zip up to full mummy mode and breath inside the bag resulting in condensation issues. That linter or tap cover blanket can be pulled up around my head\face if needed.
Post by: Coreym8565 on November 12, 2013, 02:17:34 PM
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