Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: JPhelps on November 15, 2013, 01:53:30 PM

Title: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: JPhelps on November 15, 2013, 01:53:30 PM: So I have a few questions but I didn't want to de-rail the other post.

How is Mossback allowed to guide in the Tucannon and Wenaha?
Wilderness Expeditions is guiding in the Blues is he permitted in the same areas as Western Life?

I have been toying around with the idea of potentially offering a guided/calling services for a trip or two but want to understand how all this works.
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: fair-chase on November 15, 2013, 02:01:09 PM: The other thread is already a train wreck, derailment might be the best alternative. :chuckle:

Tagging, I would like to know the answer to this as well.
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: JPhelps on November 15, 2013, 02:13:52 PM: Quote from: 2MANY on November 15, 2013, 02:02:50 PM

"So I have a few questions but I didn't want to de-rail the other post."

Dats kinda funny.

Let me re-word it "I didn't want to get in the way of the train wreck"
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: jackelope on November 15, 2013, 03:43:28 PM: They're not guiding in the wilderness or the national forest. I think that's it.
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 15, 2013, 04:07:38 PM: Lets see if I understand it, I am sure to be in trouble if I am wrong... :peep:
Washington State does NOT require a guide license for hunting.
However, the USFS requires a permit to operate on their (our) lands,
Quote
A special use permit is required for any outfitting or guiding use taking place on National Forest land. Outfitting is
the providing of any saddle or pack animal, vehicle or boat, tents or camp gear, or similar supplies or equipment for
monetary remuneration or other gain. Guiding is defined as providing, for monetary remuneration or other gain,
services or assistance such as supervision, protection, education, training, packing, transportation, subsistence,
interpretation, or otherwise assisting individuals or groups in their pursuit of a natural resource based outdoor activity.
Hiking, ski touring, and backpacking trips are examples. Guiding includes commercial guiding, and organizational
camps, private camps, and school or institutional activities, wherein the operator or guide furnishes personal services or
serves as a leader, teacher, or counselor, and receives compensation for such services (including not-for-profit
organizations). Permits are required regardless of the duration of the trip. No outfitter-guide use may occur on the
National Forest without a valid permit.
Washington state DOES require a business license and Liability insurance, required in possession, in order to operate as a guide/outfitter.
Some private timber companies require notifications if you are operating for a profit, does not hurt to check.
Then you have taxes, I wont get into that...
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: rosscrazyelk on November 15, 2013, 04:47:57 PM: I asked this myself a couples years back when the whole mossback thing happened and as I always do started my homework.
Washington state does not require any special license to be a guide. Any jo smo can do it as long as you are on private property. BUT If you want to get into the national forest you need a permit from the usfs. they have requirements for you to have a permit.. They only issue one permit per area .
I called to see how mossback did it since Dayton is a no commercial zone in the national forrest and I seen them there but never got a straight answer. I was basically told he was granted his permit but it was only good for one animal. when that animal was harvested this permit was void. How did he get it? I can only guess money talks but only he and the usfs know the answer to that one.
My suggestion would be secure some private land or offer your services to mt cook or the other outfitter. Maybe you can reach a deal finacially due on your expertise and you would be a draw for clients. I mean who would not want to hunt with the next big thing in elk calls... I would..
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: boneaddict on November 15, 2013, 04:51:48 PM: Mossyback was mostly on private land wasn't it :dunno:
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: jackelope on November 15, 2013, 05:36:12 PM: MtnCook and Bearpaw will probably be the most accurate source of answers to this question.
I have heard the Mossback/1 animal story before.
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: bearpaw on November 15, 2013, 09:03:00 PM: Each forest seems to operate a little differently. I do know that many forests will allow a one time permit for one hunter. That said, I don't know what situation Mossback had, but he has too much riding on the line, I doubt he would violate USFS rules and risk having that on his record. He likes to specialize in governor tags and limited entry hunts since he can accommodate those type of hunters with his application service.
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: mtncook on November 15, 2013, 09:35:16 PM: Doyle has been issued a 1 bull elk temporary permit for Non Wilderness portions of the Tucannon USFS land (not State Owned)outside of my permit and USFS land in the Dayton Unit. In the past they listed many (Guides/Scouts) on the permit. Those numbers have been greatly reduced. They are in the area this year for the raffle winner, the Gov. tag was purchased by someone else. The same permit was issued to the Gov. tag party. They have reportadly hunted some private land in the Dayton but do not need a permit for private land.

The permit Mossback has received came through the Walla Walla District office.

Wilderness Expeditions is operating under a permit reissued to Grande Ronde Steelheaders. It is a permit that has seen little use in the past and is by the book. He operates to the east of my units. Sharing East Wenaha and a portion of the Tucannon.

I'm sure more discussion to follow.

mtncook
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: SemperFidelis97 on November 15, 2013, 09:46:28 PM: Quote from: mtncook on November 15, 2013, 09:35:16 PM
Doyle has been issued a 1 bull elk temporary permit for Non Wilderness portions of the Tucannon USFS land (not State Owned)outside of my permit and USFS land in the Dayton Unit. In the past they listed many (Guides/Scouts) on the permit. Those numbers have been greatly reduced. They are in the area this year for the raffle winner, the Gov. tag was purchased by someone else. The same permit was issued to the Gov. tag party. They have reportadly hunted some private land in the Dayton but do not need a permit for private land.

The permit Mossback has received came through the Walla Walla District office.

Wilderness Expeditions is operating under a permit reissued to Grande Ronde Steelheaders. It is a permit that has seen little use in the past and is by the book. He operates to the east of my units. Sharing East Wenaha and a portion of the Tucannon.

I'm sure more discussion to follow.

mtncook

Are you sure that the tag holder is using mossback Dave? I was told by him that he was using his own guys to look around for him. I guess things could have changed since I was in town last if he didn't find what he wanted. I have heard some bad pr on mossback mainly on here I hope they are doing things a little different than I have heard in the past. Sorry about the derail question Jason.
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: mtncook on November 15, 2013, 09:51:50 PM: I was told the permit was issued to Mossback, not sure if it is not being used by Mossback's crew. You are more likely in the know of how it is going. I might have seen some guys today that were involved in the bull search, just did not put 2+2 together until now.

mtncook
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: trophyhunt on November 15, 2013, 10:04:44 PM: So how much does mossback have to pay for the permit? It's been said on this site before that his crew has blocked open public roads before w their trucks, mnt cook, do you know anything about this? If true, I'd push or pull his rig off the mountain.
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: mtncook on November 15, 2013, 10:22:04 PM: The permit is issued not purchased. Insurance is a requirment plus a few hoops.
I heard the same about ethics but purely here say. I've seen Utah license plates but not for a while.

mtncook
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: trophyhunt on November 15, 2013, 10:40:57 PM: So if it doesn't take money, Luke should just get a permit for one elk and then he would have a real client? :dunno:
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: bearpaw on November 16, 2013, 06:15:24 AM: Quote from: trophyhunt on November 15, 2013, 10:40:57 PM
So if it doesn't take money, Luke should just get a permit for one elk and then he would have a real client? :dunno:

Yes, if he illegally guides without a permit he risks getting a ticket for a federal violation if caught. He will need to contact the ranger district office to get the specific details on USFS requirements and permit fees, he will need to do the paperwork to show that he is capable of executing a professional hunt, insurance will be the single biggest cost.
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: trophyhunt on November 16, 2013, 10:02:32 AM: They won't issue 2 outfitters in one unit will they? That would be too much in my opinion? Unless it was just for one animal.
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: 2MANY on November 16, 2013, 04:08:25 PM: For the record, Mr. Moss has a bad reputation in Utah and Nevada also.
I have a couple guide buddies from down there that would love to dance with him. :)
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 16, 2013, 04:49:05 PM: Quote from: SemperFidelis97 on November 15, 2013, 09:46:28 PM
Are you sure that the tag holder is using mossback Dave? I was told by him that he was using his own guys to look around for him. I guess things could have changed since I was in town last if he didn't find what he wanted. I have heard some bad pr on mossback mainly on here I hope they are doing things a little different than I have heard in the past. Sorry about the derail question Jason.
Wouldn't be the first time a raffle tag holder changed his tune about using a guide(s)...
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: Easy-E on November 16, 2013, 05:46:52 PM: Quote from: bearpaw on November 16, 2013, 06:15:24 AM

Yes, if he illegally guides without a permit he risks getting a ticket for a federal violation if caught.

Who's responsible for enforcing this?
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: rosscrazyelk on November 16, 2013, 06:02:16 PM: Quote from: Jägermeister on November 16, 2013, 05:46:52 PM

Quote from: bearpaw on November 16, 2013, 06:15:24 AM

Yes, if he illegally guides without a permit he risks getting a ticket for a federal violation if caught.

Who's responsible for enforcing this?
Usfs
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: rosscrazyelk on November 16, 2013, 06:06:25 PM: This year's mossback tag
I was under the assumption that the gov tag and raffle tag were held by the same guy
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: JPhelps on November 16, 2013, 06:17:29 PM: Nope. Klemper bought the raffle tag (that verbiage was intentional) and The owner of Carpinito Bros. farms bought the governors tag.
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: jackelope on November 16, 2013, 09:49:17 PM: Quote from: JPhelps on November 16, 2013, 06:17:29 PM
Nope. Klemper bought the raffle tag (that verbiage was intentional) and The owner of Carpinito Bros. farms bought the governors tag.
What he said.
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: SemperFidelis97 on November 16, 2013, 10:27:13 PM: Mike Carpinito bought the eastside tag for himself, and he bought the westside for his son Mikey. I don't believe he is using Mossback like I said before he had some of the guys that work for him scouting around as well as some local friends of his.
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: Maverick on November 17, 2013, 07:46:11 AM: If a guy with the raffle tag was to use mossback what would it cost? I personally would prefer to do the hunt with the help of family and friends.
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 17, 2013, 07:54:04 AM: Quote from: Maverick on November 17, 2013, 07:46:11 AM
If a guy with the raffle tag was to use mossback what would it cost? I personally would prefer to do the hunt with the help of family and friends.
RaffleMule might know although I'm not sure he used them but I coulda sworn he's in one of their newer DVDs :dunno:
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: rosscrazyelk on November 17, 2013, 10:50:38 AM: Brad says not to his knowledge. If so he wants to see it
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 17, 2013, 11:21:51 AM: Must've been some other guy hugging JT... :chuckle:
Title: Re: GUIDING IN THE BLUES
Post by: jackelope on November 18, 2013, 05:29:38 PM: Quote from: Mr Mykiss on November 17, 2013, 11:21:51 AM
Must've been some other guy hugging JT... :chuckle:

:chuckle: