Hunting Washington Forum

Other Hunting => Bird Dogs => Topic started by: Atroxus on November 22, 2013, 11:14:38 PM

Title: Started vs Finished?
Post by: Atroxus on November 22, 2013, 11:14:38 PM: I have been saving my money to buy a started Labrador Retriever for hunting upland birds and waterfowl, but I saw a recent thread that got me wondering if I should be saving for a finished dog, since it will be my first hunting dog.

What is the difference between a started dog and a finished dog?

What is the age range I should expect a dog to be if is started vs finished?

How much should I expect to spend on a Started Lab vs a Finished Lab?
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on November 24, 2013, 09:22:29 AM: Different people have different definitions. I've seen trainers sell pups who barely handle for $4,500. I sold a dog who I had been training/working for a friend who was dying and now passed. He got a 4th place in the last field trial I ran with him. $2,500. I would expect that to be your range. Have you gotten in contact with some field trailers to let them know your looking? Washouts make great hunting dogs.
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: YellowDog on November 24, 2013, 01:47:31 PM: I think for a young started pup (lab) roughly 12-18 mos. old you are looking at $2500 to $4000 and for a young finished lab you are looking at between $4300 to $5500 for a well bred well trained dog :twocents: You could contact Ryan at Longhollow retrievers. I asked him a similar set of questions. He has pups available now he would sell you for $1200 and then he will keep the pup and put it in his training program at $700/ month. At 6-7 months (and about $4000 -$4700) old you would have a hell of a well trained lab pup IMO. He recently sold a finished lab that was I think 2- 3 years old that he was asking $5000 for. There are certainly other trainers out there that can do a fine job of training a pup for you that would be a little less expensive but expect to pay at least $2500 for started and over $4000 for finished. Ryan's website explains the levels of training you can expect too
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: wildweeds on November 24, 2013, 04:50:58 PM: Little secret,unless you devote the time to learn how to actually handle and drive the dog before you go hunting with it you will feel buyers remorse,if you fail to maintain and be consistant with the training/operating program,you will feel buyers remorse.I have my dogs professionally finished after I get them started.On more than one occasion I've handled other peoples dogs trained by the same trainer and had the dogs be total peaches and perfect .The owners handling their own dogs seemed to bring out the naughty behavior.It was because they never spent the time to learn how to drive the dog when they picked it up.
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on November 24, 2013, 05:05:12 PM: Got my friend set up with qualified all age "washout" for $2,500. $5k the dog better be winning field trials.
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: WRL on November 24, 2013, 07:37:57 PM: Quote from: Happy Gilmore on November 24, 2013, 05:05:12 PM
Got my friend set up with qualified all age "washout" for $2,500. $5k the dog better be winning field trials.

Completely unrealistic prices.

A started dog is gonna run (typically) $1500-$2500.....Finished $3500+.

WRL
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on November 25, 2013, 07:54:38 AM: Quote from: WRL on November 24, 2013, 07:37:57 PM
Quote from: Happy Gilmore on November 24, 2013, 05:05:12 PM
Got my friend set up with qualified all age "washout" for $2,500. $5k the dog better be winning field trials.

Completely unrealistic prices.

A started dog is gonna run (typically) $1500-$2500.....Finished $3500+.

WRL

What is unrealistic? People sell Qual level washouts for around $2,500. I sold two Q level dogs in that price range. One from Benta and Shoemakers. Larry bought Riot from Frank for under $5K and he has All Age Placements. Pat just sold his Derby dog which was handling at the Q level for $2,000. All probably had $10K of training into them. The market isn't hot for dogs right now.
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on November 25, 2013, 07:59:56 AM: For those not following what "Qual" is-

Most trainers sell a "finished" dog. This dog will do simple blinds and handle fairly reliably. A Qualified All Age level dog is running extremely long and challenging blinds, competent at advanced level field trial sets ups.

The term "wash out" is used when the owner determines the dog will not advance to the level they expect to play in the field trial games. Most/many owners expect to play at the Open level.(top in field trial) If they see traits which will not allow the dog to be a top competitor, they'll sell these dogs for pennies on the dollar to good homes. Wash out does not mean there is anything "wrong" with the dog. For a guy hunting, I "might" consider not buying a dog who had a breaking or noise problem but, that is about it.

A field trial washout will often have far more training, money and time invested in it than a dog raised to be sold as a started or finished dog.
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: AspenBud on November 25, 2013, 10:31:13 AM: Quote from: Happy Gilmore on November 24, 2013, 09:22:29 AM
Different people have different definitions. I've seen trainers sell pups who barely handle for $4,500. I sold a dog who I had been training/working for a friend who was dying and now passed. He got a 4th place in the last field trial I ran with him. $2,500. I would expect that to be your range. Have you gotten in contact with some field trailers to let them know your looking? Washouts make great hunting dogs.

:yeah:

Get a handle on what a seller means when they say they have "started" or "finished" dogs. The definition is not one size fits all.

Price is going to be all over the map. If a breeder/trainer has a full kennel and has a washout that's doing nothing more than costing them money in food and taking up space they may sell the dog very cheaply or even give it away. Those are very worthwhile dogs for hunters to look at.

Finished dogs...the term "finished" can mean a lot of things. The dog can be trained to the level that Happy is talking about with "Qual" dogs or they could be a proven trial winner that sells for 5k +. For example, I'm aware of a heavily titled Pointer that went on sale for $15,000.00 a few years ago. I think that's crazy, but people buy them.
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: AspenBud on November 25, 2013, 10:34:04 AM: Don't limit yourself in your search either. You'll expand your selection to choose from and you might well be able to find a good dog out of state for a better price. Then again you might not, but it's worth looking.
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: Blackjaw on November 25, 2013, 10:56:11 AM: This isn't necessarily directed at the OP, but as some one else said, if you get a started or finished dog, make sure you keep their training up. A dog isn't like a car that you park in the garage until you need it, you need to work with it, or it will revert to its old ways (i.e. un-train itself). It is amazing how much you can accomplish by working with your dog in the yard 5-10 minutes every day and getting out for training at least once a month.

You always here about the guys that don't work with a dog the bought trained, then when it runs amok the first time out, call the trainer they got it from and claim they got sold a dud.
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: WRL on November 25, 2013, 07:39:10 PM: Quote from: Happy Gilmore on November 25, 2013, 07:54:38 AM
Quote from: WRL on November 24, 2013, 07:37:57 PM
Quote from: Happy Gilmore on November 24, 2013, 05:05:12 PM
Got my friend set up with qualified all age "washout" for $2,500. $5k the dog better be winning field trials.

Completely unrealistic prices.

A started dog is gonna run (typically) $1500-$2500.....Finished $3500+.

WRL

What is unrealistic? People sell Qual level washouts for around $2,500. I sold two Q level dogs in that price range. One from Benta and Shoemakers. Larry bought Riot from Frank for under $5K and he has All Age Placements. Pat just sold his Derby dog which was handling at the Q level for $2,000. All probably had $10K of training into them. The market isn't hot for dogs right now.

Well then call me......I'll buy them at that price every single day and all day long. Those folks are just wanting to dump dogs. They are NOT indicative of the market for trained dogs.

For someone to think they are going to get a "Qual level dog" for $2500 is unrealistic. And if I remember correctly, one of those "qual level dogs" had zero health clearances, a weak pedigree and needed to see a vet immediately for some dental work. Eh?

WRL
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on November 26, 2013, 06:39:18 AM: One did. Yes. Dropped$500 for a bad tooth. Riot, Benta and Pats pup were not dumped or second rate. Trained by Gonia and owners wanted a good home. Frank sold Larry riot. He has a lot of ribbons for what you are describing above. Few people who know people in the dog business would pay $5k for a duck dog that doesn't handle real well or handle qual level set ups.
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: WRL on November 26, 2013, 06:54:05 AM: Quote from: Happy Gilmore on November 26, 2013, 06:39:18 AM
One did. Yes. Dropped$500 for a bad tooth. Riot, Benta and Pats pup were not dumped or second rate. Trained by Gonia and owners wanted a good home. Frank sold Larry riot. He has a lot of ribbons for what you are describing above. Few people who know people in the dog business would pay $5k for a duck dog that doesn't handle real well or handle qual level set ups.

Yeah exactly they were "dumping" dogs...washing them out because they weren't competitive and didn't want to spend a bunch of time trying to sell the dog. They wanted them gone.

The people mostly looking for "started or trained" dogs are not folks in "the dog business".

A dog with potential in the game is Not going for $5k. The going rate for dogs coming straight out of the derby is $1500 a derby point. If someone in the "game" is dumping a dog that does ANY handling for $2500, the dog has no....none...zero future in the competitive dog games and mostly has a bunch of baggage.

To SUGGEST that this guy can get a FINISHED (handling) dog for hunting for $2500 is ludicrous and you know it.

Yes, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

WRL
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: jetjockey on November 26, 2013, 07:01:09 AM: Like everyone has said,buying a finished dog is a good choice only if you plan on maintaining the training. Prices for started and finished dogs can very a lot, especially in the pointing dog world. My dad bought a 5 month old Brit that had been started on wild birds just having fun (definition of "started"often varies as well). The dog was too small and too orange though for trialing, so the trainer dumped her for cheap. Huge mistake as that dog turned out awesome. Most started dogs in the pointing world will run $1000-$2500. More if they show trial potential. Finished dogs can start at about $3500 and go WAY up from there. If you wanted to purchase a dog that has won Ames and produces, plan on dropping $50k or more. Obviously all breeds are different, but the big thug to remember is that training needs to be maintained.. Good luck..
Title: Re: Started vs Finished?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on November 26, 2013, 10:35:53 AM: "Baggage" to a FT dog might be it lines the third bird down on a 350 yard retired. This will play no course for a hunter or hunt test dog for that matter. You can make it sound however you like Lee. Fact of the matter is that if you contact all of the field trial trainers within the distance you are willing to travel you stand a high likelihood of finding a really well trained dog at a very good price. Same is true with buying cars. If you have a tight budget and want to get the most for your money, research, talk to a lot of people and be patient.

If you've got the cash and don't want to wait or look around, you can get the same thing for more money. That's how most people are when they've decided to buy something which is a luxury item in the first place. Basic marketing economics.