Post by: Revwrangler on December 04, 2013, 03:05:39 PM
My wife wants one, but if we get another dog I want a duck dog. So I am kinda hoping we can get the best of both worlds.
I appreciate any input guys.
Post by: Curly on December 04, 2013, 03:13:10 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on December 04, 2013, 03:15:38 PM
I don't see how color would matter. :dunno:
I agree. Color of the lab is more of a preference then anything. I know some guys that only hunt black, some swear by yellow, some male, some female. Just find a good breeder with good lines and go from there. :tup:
Post by: hunterrcc on December 04, 2013, 03:15:53 PM
Anyone know if silver labs are decent waterfowl hunters?
My wife wants one, but if we get another dog I want a duck dog. So I am kinda hoping we can get the best of both worlds.
I appreciate any input guys.
Silvers are just a brown that has silver color however some breeders will tell you that silver is a defective gene so you tend to have more hip elbow and gentic problems when they get a little older. Just something to think about and the dogs are expensive. my :twocents:
Post by: Curly on December 04, 2013, 03:26:42 PM
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html (http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html)
I would say if the pup comes from hunting lines and a reputable breeder than the dog should be able to be made into a good hunter. If talking the wife into getting a dog means getting a silver lab, then I take a chance on it (assuming a good breeder can be found).
Post by: Feanix on December 04, 2013, 03:57:17 PM
Post by: Revwrangler on December 04, 2013, 04:16:38 PM
Post by: wildweeds on December 04, 2013, 04:32:40 PM
Post by: scottcrb on December 04, 2013, 04:38:18 PM
Post by: Wa hunter on December 04, 2013, 05:26:27 PM
Post by: fowl smacker on December 04, 2013, 05:44:40 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 04, 2013, 07:39:03 PM
Post by: rtspring on December 04, 2013, 07:44:50 PM
"That dog can hunt". Labs are awesome!
Train it from the time it can walk and give it daily training and you got yourself a hunting dog.
All depends on the person training the dog..
Post by: Blackjaw on December 05, 2013, 06:53:42 AM
Post by: Dhoey07 on December 05, 2013, 07:02:36 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 05, 2013, 10:43:15 AM
The thing that would worry me about a silver lab, is how they got the silver color. Not that it isn't purebread, but that it was bred for color not bred for health or hunting.
The silver is a dilute of Chocolate gene. There are also Chesapeakes which can be a similar color called "ash".
Problem is the dogs are bred for color. Nobody can argue a silver lab breeder intentionally choses the dog based on coat color. A responsible breeder choses to breed animals which improve upon the stock which they currently breed. They research the pedigree and try to chose a pair which will improve the weaknesses of the other. When Silver lab breeders breed a pair of dogs, they just want them to come out silver. This results in poor structure, genetic issues and a lesser dog contributing to the gene pool.
Bottom line, all they care about is charging more money for the circus side show animal of the breed.
Post by: AspenBud on December 05, 2013, 11:26:39 AM
Seriously, that's the thing you look at when you've found a good litter and can't decide on which pup to choose. It should in no way play a role in your choice of breeder or breeding.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 05, 2013, 11:42:15 AM
Post by: AspenBud on December 05, 2013, 12:03:43 PM
Don't totally agree. A person might be selecting a color for centimental value. I.E. thay had that color when they were young. It's the owners choce as to what he prefers. Of coarse other factors come into play along with the color but you can't and shouldn't throw out color. :twocents:
I hear what you're saying but choosing based on color only throws out potentially superior litters within a breed.
If performance in the field is what you want, you'll be happier if you shove color to the bottom of the deck.
But you are right, it is an owner's choice.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 05, 2013, 12:13:17 PM
Just being matter of fact- If you find a Silver Lab breeding that has the standard lab health clearances let me know. Also, something to prove the dogs have been bred for more than a color. Field titles and/or high level obedience titles through the pedigree which "proof" the pedigree. Unfortunately, you won't find any because silver lab is a novelty item to make a breeder more money where money isn't due.
I'm just being very matter of fact. This doesn't mean a dog you own or your friends dog isn't a good dog. I love all dogs. I really do. I do NOT love all breeders and the lies they tell to sell. Folks who do the most marketing with web pages and false claims usually have the worst dogs. The more someone writes on their webpage about how great their breeding program is usually means it's not that good.
If you see a website that says something like, "We breed the best dogs in Washington" I'd run like hell because they don't.
Post by: WRL on December 05, 2013, 03:38:18 PM
Few have ANY health clearances.
If you HAVE to go silver, try these guys. At least they are attempting to do it right.
http://silverdollarlabs.com/index.htm (http://silverdollarlabs.com/index.htm)
WRL
Post by: et1702 on December 05, 2013, 04:07:18 PM
Silver is a chocolate. You will be highly unlikely to find one with what I would consider an acceptable pedigree. Not to say it can't or won't be a decent dog but, would you buy a 1991 Geo Metro for the same price as a 2014 Camry because of the color?
I agree. Way too expensive. Plus, the few of them I've encountered are dumb as a stump too. My wife runs a boarding facility. Granted, not many of her clients are hunting dogs. But, she has a couple that come to our place and they aren't very bright (but, that might be the owner's fault too).
ET
Post by: PointNLab on December 11, 2013, 10:00:58 PM
Post by: hunterrcc on December 11, 2013, 10:52:26 PM
Good Breeder know them personally. They have all colors of Silvers. They are in Yelm. If you google search: Silver Labs WA they are the first that comes up. Hope this helps.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 12, 2013, 08:18:43 AM
http://www.circleblabs.com/ (http://www.circleblabs.com/)
Good Breeder know them personally. They have all colors of Silvers. They are in Yelm. If you google search: Silver Labs WA they are the first that comes up. Hope this helps.
Its funny they advertise a stud as coming from "Amazing Show Lines" yet, there isn't a show champion on his three generation pedigree? I looked at the website of some of the kennel names in three generations back and they had something like two "International Champions" in the entire pedigree. International Champion is a huge joke in the dog world. Basically, the dog stands in front of a judge, the judge looks at the dog and decides if it meets the breed standard. It does not win or have to accumulate points. Just one judges (interpretation is vague) of the standard.
These are the kinds of statements on dog breeder websites that would make me run.
Post by: hunterrcc on December 19, 2013, 10:50:15 AM
http://www.circleblabs.com/ (http://www.circleblabs.com/)
Good Breeder know them personally. They have all colors of Silvers. They are in Yelm. If you google search: Silver Labs WA they are the first that comes up. Hope this helps.
Its funny they advertise a stud as coming from "Amazing Show Lines" yet, there isn't a show champion on his three generation pedigree? I looked at the website of some of the kennel names in three generations back and they had something like two "International Champions" in the entire pedigree. International Champion is a huge joke in the dog world. Basically, the dog stands in front of a judge, the judge looks at the dog and decides if it meets the breed standard. It does not win or have to accumulate points. Just one judges (interpretation is vague) of the standard.
These are the kinds of statements on dog breeder websites that would make me run.
Well I had a dog from them and my parents dog that hunted better then any dog I have owned but she go hit by a car a few years back so now I have a pointing lab from Tri Labs. Just thought that I would let you know about them. I know that they have a ton of happy customers and that they really have a lot of Silvers. As for generation pedigrees I don't care for Silvers. And I know that they do have a few dogs that they were getting titles for this last summer so I am not sure about what you looked up. Just saying that they have a good rep with me and a lot of folks on her facebook page. She sells out litters fast and for top dollar so they must be doing something right. As for pedigrees all the hunt tests are a joke if you ask me because I know a lot of dogs that could not hunt real wild birds worth a shiit that were grand masters champions. My two cents on it.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 19, 2013, 11:08:34 AM
I did see it mentioned that one dog has some "grand master" passes. I'd "hope" a lab breeder knows that there is no such thing as a grand master pass and one probably really shouldn't advertise something which isn't correct. Some people will hear the term and think it is a very valuable asset to have a dog which is from another that has grand master passes. I'm not trying to put down any one breeder from another. I simply try to unravel information for people who don't understand what it all means. Unfortunately, many breeders don't even know what they are saying and talking about. They make it sound good to impress folks buying dogs who don't know any better or haven't done any research.
There was a person that linked a website here a while back which had a written guarantee. In reading it, there was no possible way an owner could be have a health guarantee because the testing couldn't be done on the hips that early, they wanted to guarantee another genetic issue wouldn't occur by using the incorrect test method which would never show the issue being guaranteed etc. I think I pointed out those issues two or three times over the course of two years as the website popped up asking about it. The website must have seen my comments because they corrected the issues. Main problem still stands, I looked at their pedigree names on the OFFA website and the dogs and their grandsires haven't even been tested for what the website guarantees won't HAPPEN!!!!!
People don't need to be fooled into anything. I'm just trying to educated folks on the stuff you see which is not accurate on webpages and give a potential buyer the tools needed to weed through advertising. If your going to pay good money for a pup, I don't want anyone burned. It makes every responsible dog breeder look bad.
Post by: WRL on December 19, 2013, 12:14:31 PM
I have yet to hear anyone who has titled a dog at the Master level that HTs are a "joke".
Most GOOD Master dogs could do well in the Q at a minimum. I have run HTs one weekend and run a FT the next.
I know of several people who after titling their dogs at the Master level in HTs jumping up to FTs and doing very very well in them. Several of them achieving their FC and AFC titles. And as far as "hunt test titled dogs that couldn't hunt" well hunting is a different GAME them competition. The reverse could also be said about a lot of hunting dogs not making good competitors. But I can tell you, that if you hunt AND compete you are going to end up with the best possible HUNTING dog EVER.
Now, as to the Grand Master title....yep there sure IS a title for that. It is an APLA title though. It is NOT a UKC or AKC title.
So to see what is required for those titles you'd have to go their website (APLA's).
WRL
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 19, 2013, 01:33:05 PM
Post by: jackson7 on December 22, 2013, 07:58:06 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 22, 2013, 11:59:37 PM
Breeding for color without regards for health is stupid
Post by: actionshooter on December 23, 2013, 09:00:53 AM
I can make just about any retriever the best dog many people have ever seen in a blind. I can't however fix neurological issues, blindness, hip dyspepsia, broken elbows and other genetic issues.
Breeding for color without regards for health is stupid
Funny I saw this thread, my daughter and I were talking about the yesterday. She works at a vet clinic (3 years) and is starting vet school in the fall. She told me the silvers they have seen tend to have the problems listed above.
Post by: hunterrcc on December 23, 2013, 06:57:17 PM
I can make just about any retriever the best dog many people have ever seen in a blind. I can't however fix neurological issues, blindness, hip dyspepsia, broken elbows and other genetic issues.
Breeding for color without regards for health is stupid
Funny I saw this thread, my daughter and I were talking about the yesterday. She works at a vet clinic (3 years) and is starting vet school in the fall. She told me the silvers they have seen tend to have the problems listed above.
My vet as well as my current dogs breeder told me that about 4 years ago and that was why I originally posted about watching out for hips, elbows and other genetic problems with the silvers. Anyhow I agree the most important thing is getting the dog out a lot young and on birds young. Go take your dog for a week to the Dakotas when they are young and they will be set for life for bird hunting ducks & pheasants will forever hate your dog!
Post by: ttown on December 30, 2013, 12:54:28 AM
Not that they can't be great hunters in any case but show labs don't seem to have the same drive (my opinion) :dunno:. I am not a dog expert but I went through all of this research when I got my brit lab. As for Circle B they are great and we just bred with their stud Roy! They are nice people out there.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 30, 2013, 09:05:05 AM
Therein lies the issue with the big "British Lab" kennels. They may have a few dogs from England a couple generations back however, they are a lab, they all came from across the sea originally. If you're great grandpa was born in Ireland do you call yourself an Irish National or an American?
Also, as Lee tried to mention in the prior thread which I'm assuming was deleted, testing for PRA on British lines is VERY important. PRA causes early age blindness. It is a cheap genetic test. I see nothing about British labs which is unique or worthy of spending a top dollar. Labrador retrievers come in different sizes just like people do. I've seen the British labs come in that were so poorly behaved and did not have any more desire to learn or change than the worst pound mutt.
The British lab folks will talk smack about all the field dogs and how they are out of control monsters that you can never have in a home. None of this is true. I train for field trials, train with lots of people and have lots of friends who field trial. I'd be willing to be just as many Amateur owned field trial dogs live in the house daily as the average hunters.
My advice to anyone wanting to buy a dog; Check to be sure the pup has the health clearances which are "standard" for the breed. Meet both the sire and dam, make sure they are "good" animals in health, appearance and temperament. Don't just find the first pup advertised and buy it. Call around, talk to a lot of breeders and people involved in dog sports. Form an opinion after doing some research. You're going to have the dog for a long time hopefully, do your part to make sure you enjoy that time. Ignore these issues and you can have a dog which will cost you a fortune at the vet, go blind by the time they are two, have bad hips, blow out elbows etc. It happens to people much more often than you'd think.
Also, beware of the "one year" health guarantee. You can't check a dogs hips until they are 24 months of age. This is a time when the bones have finished growing and about the time other nasty problems like PRA start popping up. So, folks even when you see a "two year" guarantee that isn't enough time to have the hips checked via OFA. :) Check that out on a lot of these websites folks post up all the time.
Either the breeders KNOW that you can't get a OFA before 2 years so they intentionally put that in their contract or, they don't know enough about health standards themselves yet, they are breeding dogs like rabbits.
Post by: JJD on January 01, 2014, 09:03:00 AM
Sentimental value is fine for shopping. Not fine for breeding animals.
Just being matter of fact- If you find a Silver Lab breeding that has the standard lab health clearances let me know. Also, something to prove the dogs have been bred for more than a color. Field titles and/or high level obedience titles through the pedigree which "proof" the pedigree. Unfortunately, you won't find any because silver lab is a novelty item to make a breeder more money where money isn't due.
I'm just being very matter of fact. This doesn't mean a dog you own or your friends dog isn't a good dog. I love all dogs. I really do. I do NOT love all breeders and the lies they tell to sell. Folks who do the most marketing with web pages and false claims usually have the worst dogs. The more someone writes on their webpage about how great their breeding program is usually means it's not that good.
If you see a website that says something like, "We breed the best dogs in Washington" I'd run like hell because they don't.
We breed the best dogs in WA is almost always an opinion rather than provable fact. Another that makes me head for the hills says "great hunters" because either the sire or dam retrieved a duck once.
Post by: pens fan on January 01, 2014, 08:40:52 PM
As for silvers...whatever meets your fancy. I wanted a chocolate lab for years and got one. Why? I thought they looked more natural in a field or boat. I never worried about ability, that was my job to make happen.
Circle B had red labs for a while. Some people wanted that color. If there was a purple lab, I'm sure that would become popular. And Circle B would find quality purples.
Seems like some people like to complain about "backyard breeders", and then have problems with larger kennels. Can't be satisfied unless they are b$@ching.
Post by: Revwrangler on January 01, 2014, 09:12:11 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 01, 2014, 11:52:52 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 01, 2014, 11:55:54 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 02, 2014, 12:03:42 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 02, 2014, 04:54:20 PM
Here is a thread on a national retriever forum about silver labs. Good read. :)
Post by: ttown on January 03, 2014, 12:14:45 AM
I think deep down he wants one. Circle B has a litter coming up you can get on the list!! :tup:
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 03, 2014, 12:45:02 AM
Post by: AspenBud on January 03, 2014, 02:46:24 PM
I've also heard that this has been addressed through better breeding???
Regardless, I would be very careful about intentionally picking a breeding with such a rare paint job. If silvers are out of chocolates you are really starting to focus on a very small gene pool, one that can potentially have all sorts of problems...
Buy what you want. You're the one who has to feed the dog, pay for any potential medical issues, and if silver is pleasant to look at for you go for it. But you would be well advised to look for all of the standard health certs (OFA Hips, Elbows, EIC, CNM) and some proven ancestors that were able to be titled in either hunt tests or field trials. You will greatly increase your odds of having a healthy dog as well as one that can do the job if you follow that advice.
You have a lot of choices out there with labs. That's a good thing in that there is something out there for everyone, but it also means you need to be very diligent in your research and be picky about what you buy and who from.
Post by: coastie on January 11, 2014, 06:31:17 PM
Goose came from Platinum Lab Kennels in WI. I went with Bobby at Platinum because of timing of when I wanted the dog and not much choice in this area. Bobby was great to work with and we still talk of hunting together one of the days when either of us travels.