Post by: Tyler_C on December 06, 2013, 12:12:58 PM
I have recently heard of the small munsterlander and i kind of like it. Do you guys know of this breed?
What's your opinion of the ultimate versatile hunting dog?
Thanks!!!
Post by: washingtonmuley on December 06, 2013, 12:15:07 PM
Post by: JLS on December 06, 2013, 12:16:20 PM
For mine (heavier on the upland, lighter on the waterfow), it's a German Wirehaired Pointer.
Post by: wildweeds on December 06, 2013, 12:16:44 PM
Post by: washingtonmuley on December 06, 2013, 12:27:27 PM
Depends on your priorities within the parameters you gave.Waaay to high strung for me. My lab has out hunted GSP's on upland birds each time we have hunted around them and there is no way they will hold up in the cold water compared to a lab. Good breed if you only want upland.
For mine (heavier on the upland, lighter on the waterfow), it's a German Wirehaired Pointer.
Post by: Curly on December 06, 2013, 12:31:17 PM
Depends on your priorities within the parameters you gave.Waaay to high strung for me. My lab has out hunted GSP's on upland birds each time we have hunted around them and there is no way they will hold up in the cold water compared to a lab. Good breed if you only want upland.
For mine (heavier on the upland, lighter on the waterfow), it's a German Wirehaired Pointer.
Are talking GWP or GSP? JLS recommended GWP.............. :dunno:
Post by: JLS on December 06, 2013, 12:33:25 PM
Depends on your priorities within the parameters you gave.Waaay to high strung for me. My lab has out hunted GSP's on upland birds each time we have hunted around them and there is no way they will hold up in the cold water compared to a lab. Good breed if you only want upland.
For mine (heavier on the upland, lighter on the waterfow), it's a German Wirehaired Pointer.
Not true at all. My GWP pup is easier to have around the house at 6 months than my lab was at two years. He has at least an equal nose, if not better, and his endurance is off the charts compared to my lab.
His mom retrieved over 100 ducks last year out of the Columbia at Hermiston, well into January. She was 2 years old at the time.
Post by: washingtonmuley on December 06, 2013, 12:33:38 PM
My bad. I meant GWP but I have owned GSPs that were just as high strung.Depends on your priorities within the parameters you gave.Waaay to high strung for me. My lab has out hunted GSP's on upland birds each time we have hunted around them and there is no way they will hold up in the cold water compared to a lab. Good breed if you only want upland.
For mine (heavier on the upland, lighter on the waterfow), it's a German Wirehaired Pointer.
Are talking GWP or GSP? JLS recommended GWP.............. :dunno:
Post by: Tyler_C on December 06, 2013, 12:35:56 PM
Post by: LndShrk on December 06, 2013, 12:37:17 PM
Hey guys, in your opinion, what is the ultimate hunting dog breed? A breed that will point naturally, retrieve naturally, both land and water, track, etc.
I have recently heard of the small munsterlander and i kind of like it. Do you guys know of this breed?
What's your opinion of the ultimate versatile hunting dog?
Thanks!!!
Chessie. Yea they don't really point naturally but everything else they do makes up for it. :tup:
Post by: Holg3107 on December 06, 2013, 12:41:29 PM
Post by: NW-GSP on December 06, 2013, 12:43:54 PM
Post by: NW-GSP on December 06, 2013, 12:45:22 PM
Post by: seth30 on December 06, 2013, 12:47:25 PM
Lab:yeah:
Post by: CoryTDF on December 06, 2013, 12:56:17 PM
For my money and my needs I use Labs. Labs chosen from working lines that tend to be on the smaller size (55-65 pounds). They can deal with the cold water and are small enough to hit the field for upland and no fizzle out like larger dogs do. when looking for a lab do your research and make sure you are getting a working dog. Short legs, big head, fat body means it's a show type lab and not ideal for working or hunting.
Post by: NW-GSP on December 06, 2013, 12:58:32 PM
Most dogs are purpose built. You can't REALLY say one dog is perfect for both as each breed tends to be just a little better at one than the other. Labs are great all around dogs and can hold up to cold weather. You can buy pointing labs but primarily they are a flushing type dog when it comes to upland. The same goes for Chesapeake. When you start getting into the pointing dogs you start drifting farther away from the waterfowling ability. Can they swim? yes? can they hold up to December temperatures and swim? Not many. Like was said earlier if you plan more upland than waterfowl than go with a pointing breed that also enjoys water. If you plan on more waterfowl or enough waterfowl hunting in the cold go with a Lab. There is a trade off either way you go. None of the short hair dogs can stand up in the cold water! Anybody who try's to make a case for that is IMHO uneducated, irresponsible, and uncaring. Short hair dogs have no place in cold water for long periods of time that is just asking for hypothermia.
For my money and my needs I use Labs. Labs chosen from working lines that tend to be on the smaller size (55-65 pounds). They can deal with the cold water and are small enough to hit the field for upland and no fizzle out like larger dogs do. when looking for a lab do your research and make sure you are getting a working dog. Short legs, big head, fat body means it's a show type lab and not ideal for working or hunting.
I guarentee that a drathaar can handle the cold temps just as well as a lab if not better. They are also tested on water fowl hunting.
Post by: Tyler_C on December 06, 2013, 01:03:08 PM
Keep it going, guys.
Post by: wildweeds on December 06, 2013, 01:11:15 PM
Most dogs are purpose built. You can't REALLY say one dog is perfect for both as each breed tends to be just a little better at one than the other. Labs are great all around dogs and can hold up to cold weather. You can buy pointing labs but primarily they are a flushing type dog when it comes to upland. The same goes for Chesapeake. When you start getting into the pointing dogs you start drifting farther away from the waterfowling ability. Can they swim? yes? can they hold up to December temperatures and swim? Not many. Like was said earlier if you plan more upland than waterfowl than go with a pointing breed that also enjoys water. If you plan on more waterfowl or enough waterfowl hunting in the cold go with a Lab. There is a trade off either way you go. None of the short hair dogs can stand up in the cold water! Anybody who try's to make a case for that is IMHO uneducated, irresponsible, and uncaring. Short hair dogs have no place in cold water for long periods of time that is just asking for hypothermia.
For my money and my needs I use Labs. Labs chosen from working lines that tend to be on the smaller size (55-65 pounds). They can deal with the cold water and are small enough to hit the field for upland and no fizzle out like larger dogs do. when looking for a lab do your research and make sure you are getting a working dog. Short legs, big head, fat body means it's a show type lab and not ideal for working or hunting.
Post by: AspenBud on December 06, 2013, 01:19:04 PM
Post by: NW-GSP on December 06, 2013, 01:22:35 PM
Post by: Tyler_C on December 06, 2013, 01:30:32 PM
Post by: NW-GSP on December 06, 2013, 01:33:48 PM
Post by: Tyler_C on December 06, 2013, 01:52:11 PM
Post by: walleye1 on December 06, 2013, 02:11:31 PM
Post by: wildweeds on December 06, 2013, 02:55:38 PM
Wirehairs do it all.they are fur and feather dogs, tracking, ect.it would take a special lab to hang with them in the upland area. But for water some wirehairs love it some don't
Post by: AWS on December 06, 2013, 03:25:24 PM
My last AWS won the upland hunting competiton at the National Specialty and a number of shoot to retrieve competition. She was a tireless upland dog that could transition from big CRP sharptails and pheasants to tight cover woodcock and grouse without missing a step. Even after she went deaf she was able to learn to take commands with the vibration mode on a collar. We spent 14 years together, her ashes are buried next to our favorite duck hunting spot on Greys Harbour.
Though a quirk of fate I ended up with a GSP/Draat(not sure of lineage as he is a rescue from a hunter that had to give him up). Again a great upland dog and waterfowl retriever. I'm sad to say that at eight his upland days are near done due to arthritic hips but the vet thinks we can keep him retrieving waterfowl for many more years. He lives to hunt and would keep at it till he couldn't move anymore, I'm the one that will be required to protect him from himself.
Post by: wolftrapper on December 06, 2013, 05:46:49 PM
Post by: Stickerbush on December 06, 2013, 06:12:08 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 06, 2013, 06:21:59 PM
Post by: Lingcod on December 06, 2013, 06:39:58 PM
Post by: wildweeds on December 06, 2013, 07:10:40 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on December 06, 2013, 07:36:18 PM
A well bred and a well trained dog of just about any hunting breed is the best versatile dog.
:yeah:, not a bird dog guy but I agree with that statement
Post by: Tman on December 06, 2013, 07:37:41 PM
Post by: Camo on December 06, 2013, 11:08:35 PM
I'm confused or not understanding... your link says "the breeds are genetically indistinguishable". Is the link suggesting that because of the testing required for eligible breeding, that this makes them different? If so, then I assume the same testing continues currently for all true Drahthaars?
This statement is what is throwing me for a loop..."In the 1920's the Drahthaar breed was first introduced to the US. There it received a new name - German Wirehaired Pointer."
Just looking for clarification because I don't know much about either of them.
Post by: CoryTDF on December 07, 2013, 07:02:35 AM
Do what you want, get what you want, just take time to train. Training is what will make your dog either a good all around dog or lack of training makes it a pice o crap. IMHO
Hypothermia is a much more common occerence in dogs than people think. Shot hair dogs like GSH, Brittney, springer, Weimaraner, ar not built for cold water. Will they go into it? Sure! I could force just about any dog into water. The question is more about is it safe to do so.
Here is a link to a story of just how easy it is to have problems with hypothermia. And this is with a lab!!!
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?20888-10-minutes-from-retrieving-to-quot-should-be-dead-quot (http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?20888-10-minutes-from-retrieving-to-quot-should-be-dead-quot)
Post by: runamuk on December 07, 2013, 07:50:39 AM
NW-GSP
I'm confused or not understanding... your link says "the breeds are genetically indistinguishable". Is the link suggesting that because of the testing required for eligible breeding, that this makes them different? If so, then I assume the same testing continues currently for all true Drahthaars?
This statement is what is throwing me for a loop..."In the 1920's the Drahthaar breed was first introduced to the US. There it received a new name - German Wirehaired Pointer."
Just looking for clarification because I don't know much about either of them.
Its the kennel club affiliation and how the breed is managed by the registering authority. There are dog breeds in AKC that have become more about conformation and appearance than about working ability, although I dont buy into the whol kennel club breed registry bias. Basically from a genetic standpoint they are the same breed, from a breeding standpoint they are different because the Drathars are bred to work and AKC gwp's are assumed to be bred to show. another breed that will have this same situation is Brittany and French Brittany same breed genetically but not the same registry. The other thing is the American Kennel Club versions often have size and color restrictions that have nothing to do with function, and the FCI breeds often have not had those restrictions imposed so the genepool may be a little broader.
this is like which is better chevy or ford, or which caliber is best, or......lol saw the title and was like yeehaw here comes another fight :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Tyler_C on December 07, 2013, 12:32:56 PM
Post by: JLS on December 07, 2013, 12:36:22 PM
is a GWP have an off switch in the house? I kind of want a dog who knows when to tone it down a bit in the house.
Aside from his puppy moments mine is very good to have in the house.
Edit: Choosing a good breeder is every bit as important as choosing the breed IMHO. Find a breeder that selects for traits that are important to you. The breeder I bought from places a lot of emphasis on good family dogs that are chukar hunting machines, but will still get the job done in the duck blind.
Post by: Tyler_C on December 07, 2013, 01:23:26 PM
Post by: Sportfury on December 07, 2013, 02:04:49 PM
is a GWP have an off switch in the house? I kind of want a dog who knows when to tone it down a bit in the house.
Yes my GWP is great in the house. My son's GSP is all over the place. My other GSP that I had was the same way. Not wild, but would walk around all the time. Sneak into the bathrooms and eat all the tissue that was in the waste baskets and no matter how hard you came down on him he would still do it. My GWP is more of a pleaser. She only gets in trouble once and never does it again. If we tell her out of the kitchen she will move out and lay at the invisible line, but will not cross into it. My son's GSP always tests that boundary.
For what you are looking for (pointing type all around dog) I would say that you need to look at GWP, GSP, Weim, Vizsla, Munsterlander, etc. My experience has only been with the first two and all the labs that my dad had when I was a kid. I would take a GWP any day. She hunts from the time we leave to the time we get back. She does great in the house and with kids and other people. She does okay with other dogs as long as they don't push her personal space which includes me (I had another dog try and grab a sandwich out of my hand when we were taking a break. Sofie knows that food is only accepted if given and that dog broke the rules and she let him have it.) She would not let him come near me after that. What I really love is that she works for me and wants to please me. My GSP was more aloof and all about himself.
When is comes to GWP/Drathaar and GSP/Kurzhaar I think that you are talking semantics. They are the same, but one is bred per the German guidelines. If you want the German traits then get the Drathaar/Kurzhaar. Only dogs that have passed the required testing can be bred. Most of that testing is geared toward fur and game, so you know that you would be getting a true hunter. In Germany they use a ton of Drathaars when they do their hunts. There was a member on this site that was stationed over there that used to post up the hunts he went on. Pretty cool to see these dogs work.
Post by: Lee Root on December 07, 2013, 03:57:58 PM
I am kind of partial to the DD.
Post by: pilebuck on December 07, 2013, 04:42:45 PM
Post by: C-Money on December 07, 2013, 05:07:14 PM
Post by: Camo on December 07, 2013, 07:39:19 PM
Thanks for the clarification. I have a 6mo GWP (my first) and really couldn't find any determination between the two. I've always been a lab guy myself so its all new to me.
Definitely not trying to start anything and tried to wordsmith as such, but its easy to come across wrong on a keyboard.
Post by: SkookumHntr on December 07, 2013, 07:44:02 PM
Post by: Shannon on December 07, 2013, 10:47:45 PM
Post by: Stickerbush on December 08, 2013, 08:40:24 AM
Post by: Sportfury on December 08, 2013, 10:30:43 PM
I've owned a few labs in the past and my current pudelpointers are just as good as my best labs in water retrieves. My pudelpointers are a little quicker getting there and back. They are one of the four breeds mixed to make the GWP originally. They look a lot like a solid liver GWP. The biggest differences are personality IMO. The pudelpointer has a labs personality and the GWP is more protective and aloof to people other than there owners. I like that protective quality and wish my dogs had that sometimes but sometimes its a pain in the butt also. The pudelpointer is on average a bigger running dog and maybe a little more stylish on average. The GWP/drathaar has better coat consistancy for sure and they are a little sharper on fur although pudelpointers are pretty hard on fur also. I really like the testing involved in the drathaar breeding programs and the NAPPA pudelpointer breeders are pretty serious about testing to set levels before they are breed eligible also. If I was serious about getting a hunting machine I would get a drathaar before I got a GWP. I would feel like it would be harder to get a dud going that way than a GWP. You can find great dogs in both though. The GWP, drathaar, and pudelpointer all have the switch where they can be relaxed in the house. I have two dogs at my feet that haven't lifted there heads since they came in. There are exceptions to every breed but most dogs of these breeds have that switch. Thats my :twocents:
:yeah: great post Shannon
Post by: runamuk on December 08, 2013, 10:49:24 PM
Post by: Tyler_C on December 09, 2013, 07:55:01 AM
and discussion on the pointing griffon? I have heard good things about them and cold water especially
what are some triats/skills of the wirehaired pointing griffon? Do they compare to a GWP?
Post by: wildweeds on December 09, 2013, 08:57:08 AM
Post by: Sportfury on December 09, 2013, 09:24:05 AM
Post by: whackemstackem on December 09, 2013, 09:45:02 AM
But seriously every dog has it's weaknesses, a lab is a great dog that excels in love, agility and ease of training. If you hate training hassles then your safe bet is a lab. Labs have been my favorite companion for the last 13 years. Now I own a hunt machine, but you gotta get him out to hunt or he waits by the tailgate when you let him out. :twocents:
Post by: Tyler_C on December 09, 2013, 09:51:37 AM
Post by: whackemstackem on December 09, 2013, 10:17:07 AM
Post by: wildweeds on December 09, 2013, 10:22:14 AM
Wow... Sounds like someone will get a good deal. There would be no way that I could talk the wife into another dog.
Post by: Tyler_C on December 09, 2013, 11:18:58 AM
Post by: KFhunter on December 09, 2013, 11:29:19 AM
how would a brittany compare to the other dogs listed?
Quote
A breed that will point naturally, retrieve naturally, both land and water, track, etc.
Versatile breeds just means a pliable and trainable dog with some natural tendencies and if you want it to do all those things you need to train it to do those things.
Pretty tough to compare all versatile traits and come up with a "most versatile" dog as training comes so strongly into play. You can lean towards one trait or the other and an somewhat narrow down a search though.
Happy Gilmore had the correct answer :twocents:
Post by: Tyler_C on December 09, 2013, 11:40:01 AM
Post by: KFhunter on December 09, 2013, 11:56:45 AM
with that being said, does a brittany have natural retrieving instincts? I have heard they do and they don't.
yes and no - some state their dogs never needed force fetched while others do, the trials guys pretty well force fetch either way because FF does more than just make the dog retrieve.
Mine retrieved naturally especially for birds - but playing in the yard she would get bored getting a bumper after half a dozen times where a lab would go until they wore out.
So ya - if they know there is a bird out there they'll get it if you train for it but your training would have to be fun
or force fetch which is what most bird dog guys will tell you to do anyways
I wouldn't though unless you want to run trials.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on December 09, 2013, 12:02:10 PM
Post by: AspenBud on December 09, 2013, 12:21:52 PM
with that being said, does a brittany have natural retrieving instincts? I have heard they do and they don't.
yes and no - some state their dogs never needed force fetched while others do, the trials guys pretty well force fetch either way because FF does more than just make the dog retrieve.
Mine retrieved naturally especially for birds - but playing in the yard she would get bored getting a bumper after half a dozen times where a lab would go until they wore out.
So ya - if they know there is a bird out there they'll get it if you train for it but your training would have to be fun
or force fetch which is what most bird dog guys will tell you to do anyways
I wouldn't though unless you want to run trials.
For the record, not all trials require a retrieve in the pointing dog world. In fact, in some that is the last thing you want to have if you want to win.
It's one of those all over the map things. I know of a guy who successfully trials in the NSTRA who teaches his dogs to fetch, but does not make them steady to shot because it's not scored in that venue and he feels it hurts a dog's chances of finding the bird. I know another who taught his dog how to fetch birds (not FF) and he trials the dog in venues that do not require it, but the dog is steady to shot.
If you guys read between the lines, there is no right or wrong in this as long as you get the result you want. Heck, if you go over to Europe they train pointing dogs to flush and sit or lay down after the flush on command. Lots of options out there.
Post by: AspenBud on December 09, 2013, 12:30:04 PM
how would a brittany compare to the other dogs listed?QuoteA breed that will point naturally, retrieve naturally, both land and water, track, etc.
Versatile breeds just means a pliable and trainable dog with some natural tendencies and if you want it to do all those things you need to train it to do those things.
Pretty tough to compare all versatile traits and come up with a "most versatile" dog as training comes so strongly into play. You can lean towards one trait or the other and an somewhat narrow down a search though.
Happy Gilmore had the correct answer :twocents:
:yeah:
I'll only add that there is some difference between the trial bred flavor of the versatile breeds and the non-trial bred.
Generally speaking...field trial dogs = pure bird dogs. You can still get a lot of utility out of those breedings, but if you intend to duck hunt, track wounded game, or hunt fur you may want to look at a breeding from someone running dogs in the NAVHDA or the VHDF. :twocents:
Post by: KFhunter on December 09, 2013, 12:41:07 PM
how would a brittany compare to the other dogs listed?QuoteA breed that will point naturally, retrieve naturally, both land and water, track, etc.
Versatile breeds just means a pliable and trainable dog with some natural tendencies and if you want it to do all those things you need to train it to do those things.
Pretty tough to compare all versatile traits and come up with a "most versatile" dog as training comes so strongly into play. You can lean towards one trait or the other and an somewhat narrow down a search though.
Happy Gilmore had the correct answer :twocents:
:yeah:
I'll only add that there is some difference between the trial bred flavor of the versatile breeds and the non-trial bred.
Generally speaking...field trial dogs = pure bird dogs. You can still get a lot of utility out of those breedings, but if you intend to duck hunt, track wounded game, or hunt fur you may want to look at a breeding from someone running dogs in the NAVHDA or the VHDF. :twocents:
http://jgv-usa.org/ (http://jgv-usa.org/)
Post by: jetjockey on December 09, 2013, 12:41:27 PM
Post by: KFhunter on December 09, 2013, 12:46:49 PM
Brittany's are one of the original versatile breeds. Most have a natural retrieve that just needs to be brought out in them. In AKC Brittany trials the dogs are not required to retrieve. But that doesn't mean they won't. My dad's Brit broke ice yesterday in E Wash to retrieve a dead rooster. After that, she continued to hunt like crazy. She's heavily field trial bred with a wonderful natural retrieve. Now, I would be a little leery if she broke ice, and then came back to sit in a blind, because that's when dogs get cold. But as long as their bloods pumping, or the can come back to a warm blind, she would be fine. With that said, GWP's are a better choice for ducks in the cold due to their coats, but I like a dog that will run, and every GWP/Draughthar that I've ever hunted over in the uplands was like watching paint dry.
That's why I didn't recommend a breed for the OP
Post by: Tman on December 09, 2013, 06:20:30 PM
GWP for instance are great dogs both at home and in the field but do have a personality quark, not liking to be left alone. They are very loyal and loving dogs, mine really wants to be next to me all the time. Other GWP owners have said the same thing about theirs needing company as well.
Mine is also really protective of my family and especially my little boy. Has not a care in the world introduced, but will not let a person or dog anywhere near without the introduction.
But then again, if you want a dog that will hunt hard, have decent house manners, be really loyal and protective of your family the GWP would be hard to beat.
Post by: pens fan on December 10, 2013, 01:17:54 AM
Chesapeake....check
American Water Spaniel....check
Flusher.....check
Retriever....check
Waterfowl....check
Upland.....check
Even turkey....check
Has anyone mentioned a Boykin Spaniel, yet?
Post by: Swannytheswan on December 10, 2013, 03:54:40 AM
http://www.cedarwoodgundogs.com/gallery.asp (http://www.cedarwoodgundogs.com/gallery.asp)
Post by: Shannon on December 10, 2013, 07:30:03 AM
I mentioned pudelpointers in previous pages. I have two Cedarwoods dogs. You can't go wrong with one of Bob's dogs.
Post by: Tyler_C on December 10, 2013, 08:03:29 AM
Post by: Curly on December 10, 2013, 09:34:14 AM
Has anyone mentioned a Boykin Spaniel, yet?
No, because he was asking about versitile pointing breeds.
Post by: AspenBud on December 10, 2013, 09:37:30 AM
Somehing else to consider is how much time you have.
GWP for instance are great dogs both at home and in the field but do have a personality quark, not liking to be left alone. They are very loyal and loving dogs, mine really wants to be next to me all the time. Other GWP owners have said the same thing about theirs needing company as well.
Mine is also really protective of my family and especially my little boy. Has not a care in the world introduced, but will not let a person or dog anywhere near without the introduction.
But then again, if you want a dog that will hunt hard, have decent house manners, be really loyal and protective of your family the GWP would be hard to beat.
GWP's are great dogs. But it's important to remember where they come from. These dogs were originally created to not just track, retrieve birds, and point game. They were created to be able to kill a fox and take on something as big as a boar. They are back ally brawlers. If they have an attitude it's there for a reason.
Post by: canyonduck on December 10, 2013, 09:48:28 AM
Hey guys, in your opinion, what is the ultimate hunting dog breed? A breed that will point naturally, retrieve naturally, both land and water, track, etc.
I have recently heard of the small munsterlander and i kind of like it. Do you guys know of this breed?
What's your opinion of the ultimate versatile hunting dog?
Thanks!!!
Tyler_C,
I just saw this post. I have 2 Small Munsterlanders (SMs). Send me a PM and we can talk. Remember that there is no such thing as the ultimate dog(s), except for mine. In all seriousness, a well bred and half trained SM can make for a truely happy home and provide hunting memories for a lifetime.
Regards
Post by: AspenBud on December 10, 2013, 09:48:55 AM
anyone heard of the Dutch Partridge Dog?
Do yourself a favor and stay away from exotic breeds. You'll have a better chance of finding a good dog, for a good price, from the big five pointing breeds (Pointer, Setter, Brittany, GSP, GWP). Beyond those I would look at Vizslas, Griffons, Spinoni Italionos, Bracco Italionos, small and large Munsterlanders, Pudelpointers, and maybe German Longhaired Pointers. I would be leery outside of that group.
Money should not be a concern for you when buying a pup, but for the money you will arguably have an easier time finding what you want from the above, particularly from the big five.
Post by: wildweeds on December 10, 2013, 09:54:38 AM
Somehing else to consider is how much time you have.
GWP for instance are great dogs both at home and in the field but do have a personality quark, not liking to be left alone. They are very loyal and loving dogs, mine really wants to be next to me all the time. Other GWP owners have said the same thing about theirs needing company as well.
Mine is also really protective of my family and especially my little boy. Has not a care in the world introduced, but will not let a person or dog anywhere near without the introduction.
But then again, if you want a dog that will hunt hard, have decent house manners, be really loyal and protective of your family the GWP would be hard to beat.
GWP's are great dogs. But it's important to remember where they come from. These dogs were originally created to not just track, retrieve birds, and point game. They were created to be able to kill a fox and take on something as big as a boar. They are back ally brawlers. If they have an attitude it's there for a reason.
Post by: Tyler_C on December 10, 2013, 09:57:33 AM
Post by: AspenBud on December 10, 2013, 10:02:20 AM
That's why the americanized breeding GWP's are less sharp than their imported draht counterparts.Make no mistake I've seen some mean wirehairs,the worst one wanted to flat out eat us alive at the pigeon racers place,he ended up having to put the dog down after several biting/attack episodes.Somehing else to consider is how much time you have.
GWP for instance are great dogs both at home and in the field but do have a personality quark, not liking to be left alone. They are very loyal and loving dogs, mine really wants to be next to me all the time. Other GWP owners have said the same thing about theirs needing company as well.
Mine is also really protective of my family and especially my little boy. Has not a care in the world introduced, but will not let a person or dog anywhere near without the introduction.
But then again, if you want a dog that will hunt hard, have decent house manners, be really loyal and protective of your family the GWP would be hard to beat.
GWP's are great dogs. But it's important to remember where they come from. These dogs were originally created to not just track, retrieve birds, and point game. They were created to be able to kill a fox and take on something as big as a boar. They are back ally brawlers. If they have an attitude it's there for a reason.
Yeah
http://drahthaar.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=photo&action=display&thread=21 (http://drahthaar.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=photo&action=display&thread=21)
Post by: jetjockey on December 10, 2013, 12:26:43 PM
ok, as far as the brittany, should i look at the american or the french?
Doesn't really matter. If you want a great duck retriever, I'd suggest force fetching either one. Don't let that discourage you either, even great Dogs with Retriever in their name get forced fetched. French Brits tend to be a little smaller and work closer in. American Brits can very from close working gun dogs to the occasional 500-1000 yard All Age dogs, and probably average 5-10lbs bigger.
Post by: wildweeds on December 10, 2013, 12:29:56 PM
Post by: Tyler_C on December 10, 2013, 12:30:18 PM
Post by: pens fan on December 10, 2013, 06:51:52 PM
Post by: Curly on December 10, 2013, 07:48:13 PM
I don't think of most pointing dogs as being able to withstand cold water retrieving, so I think I'd have to eliminate the GSP, weimaraners, Brittany and setters. That pretty much leaves GWP as the versatile pointing breed, IMO. (But I don't have the experience w/ pointing breeds, though, like a lot of these guys). Only pointing breeds I've spent much time around are Brits and GSP........and neither of them I'd consider being good on water retrieves.
I think there are more options if you throw flushing dogs into the mix............ (Lab, Chessie, Boykin, Springers, etc. I think could all be versitile hunting dogs.........maybe more so than the pointers (w/ maybe the exception of GWP).
Then there is the Pointing Lab. A pointing lab may just be the most versatile pointing breed............but I still have a hard time wrapping my head around seeing a lab as a pointing dog. I just haven't been around any.........I think if I'd ever seen a good pointing lab in action, I'd say for sure that a pointing lab would be the most versatile pointing breed under the description the OP was getting at. (Just a regular old lab, may be the most versatile under a different set of criteria). :twocents:
Post by: AspenBud on December 11, 2013, 09:10:34 AM
I don't think of most pointing dogs as being able to withstand cold water retrieving, so I think I'd have to eliminate the GSP, weimaraners, Brittany and setters. That pretty much leaves GWP as the versatile pointing breed, IMO.
German Wirehaired Pointer
Drahthaar
Wirehaired Pointing Griffon
Spinone Italiono
If cold weather duck hunting will be part of the game, those are the pointing breeds I would stick with.
Then there is the Pointing Lab. A pointing lab may just be the most versatile pointing breed............but I still have a hard time wrapping my head around seeing a lab as a pointing dog. I just haven't been around any.........I think if I'd ever seen a good pointing lab in action, I'd say for sure that a pointing lab would be the most versatile pointing breed under the description the OP was getting at.
These are a great option.
Post by: Shannon on December 11, 2013, 10:43:06 AM
Post by: AspenBud on December 11, 2013, 11:05:46 AM
You are leaving out the pudelpointer probably because most people haven't seen one. The pudelpointer is just as tuff as any GWP/Drathaar I've seen and they usually have a higher octane in the field than spinone's and griffons and at par or better than a GWP. They are not for everybody but if your serious about a great pointing dog that does well in cold water retrieves you owe it to yourself to check out the Pudelpointers. I highly recommend Bob Farris of Cedarwoods Gundogs in Boise.
Apologies, I forgot about them.
Weren't Bob's dogs featured on American Gun Dog at one point?
Post by: Shannon on December 11, 2013, 04:22:43 PM
Post by: Curly on December 11, 2013, 05:14:41 PM
breeder link: breeders (http://www.pudelpointer.org/Breeders.html)
Post by: Shannon on December 11, 2013, 06:50:19 PM
My dogs hit the water like this whether its 80 degrees or 18.
Post by: Curly on December 11, 2013, 07:00:27 PM
Post by: AspenBud on December 11, 2013, 08:16:59 PM
They are great dogs. I'm not sure why they aren't more popular other than they are a little more money than the average GSP or GWP. I just stumbled onto them when I was looking for a good water dog that was a pointer.
My dogs hit the water like this whether its 80 degrees or 18.
To be honest I keep coming back to this breed as a possible future dog. Probably because Pointers were such a heavy influence in making the breed and since I love Pointers...
As for notoriety, that's probably because people who breed them haven't pursued AKC recognition for fear of the same show/hunting split that has occurred with other pointing breeds. Never underestimate the akc marketing machine.
Post by: Shannon on December 11, 2013, 08:59:16 PM
Post by: canyonduck on December 12, 2013, 07:35:05 AM
All the breeders I know of will only sell to hunters. That limits the demand quite a bit. I'm glad they are not recognized by AKC. It just means they can't get screwed up by them like a lot of breeds.
Ditto with the Small Munsterlander. Heck... One of my breeders required a 5 page application including copies of my hunting license and a picture of myself hunting. Maybe a bit extreme, but it certainly ensures the dogs are going to the right homes.
Post by: AspenBud on December 12, 2013, 07:45:56 AM
All the breeders I know of will only sell to hunters. That limits the demand quite a bit. I'm glad they are not recognized by AKC. It just means they can't get screwed up by them like a lot of breeds.
That's why I would rather buy a dog with the letters FDSB associated with. Showing is not associated with that registry and while it guarantees nothing, it does tell me the intent of the breeding was for hunting.
Post by: Ridgerunner on December 15, 2013, 06:55:30 AM
Post by: MR5x5 on December 15, 2013, 08:50:58 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 15, 2013, 09:08:55 AM
All the breeders I know of will only sell to hunters. That limits the demand quite a bit. I'm glad they are not recognized by AKC. It just means they can't get screwed up by them like a lot of breeds.
AKC just records the litter on paper. Has no influence or anything to do with breeders. They do not police, they do not do anything what so ever.
Not sure how the AKC has anything to do with screwing up a breed.
Post by: wildweeds on December 15, 2013, 10:52:38 AM
Double edged sword though,a really big name kennell has lots of unfilled pre ordered pups,the demand to produce pups for sale can override the selection of the best and get into the breeding on paper gamble.You'll know that kennel when you see it,big fancy website and about 3 studs and 15 dams.
All boils down to a semi educated inkling crap shoot.
All the breeders I know of will only sell to hunters. That limits the demand quite a bit. I'm glad they are not recognized by AKC. It just means they can't get screwed up by them like a lot of breeds.
AKC just records the litter on paper. Has no influence or anything to do with breeders. They do not police, they do not do anything what so ever.
Not sure how the AKC has anything to do with screwing up a breed.
Post by: AspenBud on December 15, 2013, 11:46:09 AM
How they get ruined is a guy buys a pup,it's his very first dog and he thinks its the be all end all,breeds it sells the pups and so on and so forth.I've had 10 english setters,all of them fdsb/akc dual registered,4 sired by american field champs.Only two of those dogs were quality enough to consiously breed,and the breeders were NOT sired by the AF CH's.In no particular order but what rates high on my list is Health,in field performance,natural ability and smarts/trainability,birdfinding which I consider inherited,and confirmation to glide over the ground rather than pound it.I would bet that over half the litters registered are the product of my theory at the start of the post. I'm overly picky on what I would use myself.I was pretty pleased when I got a call from a guy I sold a pup to who has had setters for over 30 years and he told me that his pup was the best dog he's ever bought.He's had dogs from all the heavy hitters in setters,Robertsons,Tekoa,Havelock,Grouse Ridge and Long gone.
Double edged sword though,a really big name kennell has lots of unfilled pre ordered pups,the demand to produce pups for sale can override the selection of the best and get into the breeding on paper gamble.You'll know that kennel when you see it,big fancy website and about 3 studs and 15 dams.
All boils down to a semi educated inkling crap shoot.All the breeders I know of will only sell to hunters. That limits the demand quite a bit. I'm glad they are not recognized by AKC. It just means they can't get screwed up by them like a lot of breeds.
AKC just records the litter on paper. Has no influence or anything to do with breeders. They do not police, they do not do anything what so ever.
Not sure how the AKC has anything to do with screwing up a breed.
I think most folks only need look at Irish Setters to see what the AKC show world has done to destroy good lines.
English Setters, AF or AKC registered, are going to be more of a crap shoot and all over the map in ability since the breed has not seen the same high level of selectivity that English Pointers have over the years. That doesn't even touch on the differences between coverdog setters, horseback setters, Ryman setters, Llewellyn Setters, "dual" setters etc.
Post by: wildweeds on December 15, 2013, 12:20:55 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 15, 2013, 10:30:35 PM
Post by: canyonduck on December 16, 2013, 07:57:34 AM
Those first 16 weeks are in establishing confidence, comfort, socialization, etc…. After that then it’s genetics plus training. The better the genetics the more likely you are to have a good dog, but you are going to have a rougher road to hoe if the dog wasn’t started correctly.
There are several good non-hunting and hunting books available in getting the dog started correctly. I suggest “The Art of Raising a Puppy” by The Monks of New Skete.
Post by: AspenBud on December 16, 2013, 10:39:03 AM
Thats the point I was trying to make............. Selection process.
You're also touching on something a lot of people don't get. It's VERY hard to find a field champion. I will recommend buying from proven parents every time, but just because they won does not mean their offspring will ever do as well. Could be genetics, could be training, could be both. But I'll bet a lot that their offspring will make good consistently good hunting dogs in the right hands.
I know I'm preaching to the choir, just thinking out loud.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 16, 2013, 11:26:52 AM
Thats the point I was trying to make............. Selection process.
You're also touching on something a lot of people don't get. It's VERY hard to find a field champion. I will recommend buying from proven parents every time, but just because they won does not mean their offspring will ever do as well. Could be genetics, could be training, could be both. But I'll bet a lot that their offspring will make good consistently good hunting dogs in the right hands.
I know I'm preaching to the choir, just thinking out loud.
One of the biggest problems lies with the breeders who make claims on their webpages which are misleading and often so incorrect it's amazing they can figure out how to let two dogs get knocked up let alone publish pure rubbish about their dogs on a webpage.
I'm going to start another thread on this subject now that I think about it...
Post by: jetjockey on December 16, 2013, 09:29:27 PM
Post by: pens fan on December 17, 2013, 12:45:24 AM
Once the AKC recognized the Boykins, the first thing you here is there is one in the national dog show.
The AKC wanted to set the breed standards, and would not accept the color being one of two, chocolate or liver. I guess an agreementbwas madevwith the Boykin Spaniel Society over the breed description rights.No mention of character. No mention of ability. Now, there will be two sets of Boykins, those that hunt, and those that are so far removed from hunting that their instincts will collide with their personalities, creating confused dogs. Mean dogs.
:twocents:
Post by: Blackjaw on December 17, 2013, 07:08:53 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 08:17:48 AM
If people don't think the AKC has ruined a lot of field bred dogs, they are blind. The AKC sets breed standards based off the "look" they believe the dogs should have. Nowhere do the standards talk about field ability, or intelligence, run, style, nose, retrieve, etc. Because of that, dogs that are out of standard are not considered for breeding In the AKC circles. IT doesn't matter if the dog is the best field dog the breed has ever seen, if it's out of standard, it's automatically considered a reject. Putting form over function has ruined many field dogs.
To put this as politely as possible, you are 100% wrong. AKC does NOT set any standards. The individual breed clubs set the guidelines. The National Brittany Club of America (or whatever it's called) gives explicit direction to the AKC regarding how the Brittany Standard is read or published. If you do not like the standard, you must petition the Brittany Club for change. Your own Breed Club is the only ones to blame for not accepting your field Brits
The AKC is simply a breed registry which does NOTHING but record pedigrees. Folks really need to do their homework when it comes to non-AKC breeds and breeding. There is also a process which is strict to become an AKC breed. Pens Fan might know more about it? His Boykin breed is one of the newest adopted into the AKC Books.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 08:25:22 AM
Any who, AKC does not reject dogs. There can be dogs which are out of standard. They simply will not place in the show ring. I doubt you've considered much showing with your field dogs anyways right? :chuckle: The intent of (not the AKC) most breed clubs is to keep their dogs looking as original as possible. Of course, the Lab people and a few other breeds have done a great job of turning a blind eye to what they've created but, that again is the Breed Club itself. The AKC has nothing to do with the breed club standard.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 08:29:17 AM
Again, their job is recording pedigrees, not making breeds. They are set up simply to be a library. The AKC events keep the cash flowing and promote purebred dogs. This is of course a self serving effort overall.
Post by: jetjockey on December 17, 2013, 08:45:34 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 08:53:49 AM
The breed clubs fall under the umbrella of the AKC. They must obey the rules and guidelines set fourth by the AKC, or the AKC won't recognize them as a breed club. When a vast majority of the money coming in comes from the show rings, who do you think has the say in voting in the breed clubs? When the field people get outvoted by the show people, the field ability of the dogs suffers. Why do you think the Setter and Pointer people could care less about registering with the AKC? Why do you think the GSP folks split away from the AKC and now have a seperate AF side? Why do you think many of the field people in the Brittany world want to split from the AKC? Because the AKC is controlled by the show people, who controll the breeds. They make their decisions based on the "look" of a dog and not the field ability of a certain breed. Why? Because AKC represents all breeds, not just working breeds. AF represents field breeds only, and there is no standard anywhere in their database. That's why amongst pointing breeds, American Field is held in a much higher regard than the AKC. Most pointing dog guys will tell you the AKC is a joke.
Have you ever read the AKC "Rules" you speak of? I have. I've also written the Bylawsfor a field trial club. The newest in the US last year. The only rules they have apply to elections, meetings and frequency of meetings and elections. :)
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 08:58:41 AM
That's why amongst pointing breeds, American Field is held in a much higher regard than the AKC. Most pointing dog guys will tell you the AKC is a joke.
Field breeders have been just as to blame for many health issues over the years. Pointing dogs so far have dodged many genetic bullets. My guess is that won't stay that way for a long time.
Pointing dog people do the least amount of preventative health testing of any single set of animal breeders. I'll dare to include horsemen.
Post by: jetjockey on December 17, 2013, 09:33:07 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 09:41:08 AM
That's because pointing dog trials naturally weed out unhealthy dogs. Good luck laying down a solid hour with bad hips or a bad heart. Other trial venues do nothing to test the stamina or physical ability of a dog, and thus unhealthy dogs can actually win. That's why AF doesn't need to post a "standard" either. A largely oversized or undersized dog will never be able to compete.
from a medical standpoint, bad hips won't show until the dog is probably past his prime. How the dog moves at 10+ years old is a better indicator. How sound is the animal? Elbows, hips, eyes etc.
I'm far more impressed by a dog who wins at a heightened age than one who does it young and never has anymore success. Folks who advertise everything a young dog accomplished then, the dog does nothing. Well, either the dog had a good week/month or, it only had a brief window where it would continue to train and develop.
Post by: AspenBud on December 17, 2013, 10:00:06 AM
That's because pointing dog trials naturally weed out unhealthy dogs. Good luck laying down a solid hour with bad hips or a bad heart. Other trial venues do nothing to test the stamina or physical ability of a dog, and thus unhealthy dogs can actually win. That's why AF doesn't need to post a "standard" either. A largely oversized or undersized dog will never be able to compete.
Just to add to what you are saying. For a dog to win at Ames, just one example, it effectively has to run at the same level at the end of its four hour brace as it did at the start of it. Dogs with bad hips and bad hearts can't do that.
Now if you want to talk about cancer, that's a different story. Some field bred Pointer breedings don't fair well. Then again, you have dogs like Hard Driving Bev here...
http://americanfield.villagesoup.com/p/hard-driving-bev-1999-2013/1089062?source=WeeklyHeadlines (http://americanfield.villagesoup.com/p/hard-driving-bev-1999-2013/1089062?source=WeeklyHeadlines)
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 10:10:53 AM
A dog with a poor score can easily run for hours without showing any sign of dysplasia. It could run it's whole life. Where that comes into play, is when it is never tested, gets bred a whole bunch and it's offspring get bred and nobody is doing it because, "It ran fine for hours"....
That is where many pointer breeders are off. Lab breeders felt the same way about CNM and PRA. My dog never shown signs of it and he's an FC. Breed away. Then, you start getting a few blind puppies showing up, nervous system issues etc. GSP's are no different or, many pointing breeds for that matter.
Post by: AspenBud on December 17, 2013, 10:42:34 AM
for the sake of argument, dogs with poor hip scores can go their entire lives and not be diagnosed with dysplasia. OFFA scores do not mean the dog is going down or can't run. Furthest from the truth. The score simply is a measurement of the orientation of the socket to the joint.
A dog with a poor score can easily run for hours without showing any sign of dysplasia. It could run it's whole life. Where that comes into play, is when it is never tested, gets bred a whole bunch and it's offspring get bred and nobody is doing it because, "It ran fine for hours"....
That is where many pointer breeders are off. Lab breeders felt the same way about CNM and PRA. My dog never shown signs of it and he's an FC. Breed away. Then, you start getting a few blind puppies showing up, nervous system issues etc. GSP's are no different or, many pointing breeds for that matter.
I think the problem with that argument is history. In the last 50 years it's not hard to see who has produced more dogs with horrifically dysplastic hips. Prancing around a show ring doesn't really show a lot of the flaws in a dog's gait nor does it demonstrate just how well a dog can take the day in, day out, ground pounding that a trial dog does.
Look, I'm not disagreeing with your underlying argument here. But a pointing dog with bad hips is going to have a hard time winning at the highest levels and is going to have a hard time with the physical conditioning that goes on.
Bad hips lead to bad gait which directly affects a dog's endurance...and if pointing dog trials are about anything over and above finding and pointing birds, it is endurance.
Where the danger appears is with backyard breeders. Guys breeding winning trial dogs have an eye for what they want. They aren't just slamming two champions together randomly. On that level I think you are correct. The farther removed you get from competition the more you can run into problem breedings. Some people like to stay away from up close trial dog breedings because they think they'll avoid a dog that runs over to the next county, in some cases that's fair, but it also raises the odds of getting a genetic frankenstein if a person doesn't know who and what they are dealing with.
Post by: pens fan on December 17, 2013, 10:46:01 AM
This is one reason i try and sell my pups only to hunters. Too many people love the looks of Boykins and want one for that purpose only. I often talk people out of it, unless i have a pup that just doesnt seem to have "it".
I have relatives who show dogs, and they even say some of the breeds no longer resemble what they used to look like.
As for pointers, i know little about them. But i have seen some GSP's at dog show in Portland, and i dont think any of them would know a bird if it stood on its nose. They seemed distraught. Not what i see in the fields.
Post by: Spuddieselwwu on December 17, 2013, 11:15:48 AM
Wirehairs do it all.they are fur and feather dogs, tracking, ect.it would take a special lab to hang with them in the upland area. But for water some wirehairs love it some don't
And it'd take a special wirehair to consistently hang with a lab while chasing ducks and geese. I think it's all about preference. Do you side more towards upland or waterfowl? If you have more of an affinity towards upland, then I think Wirehair takes it. Alternatively, if you lean more towards ducks/geese, a lab is the best bet for you.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 11:25:34 AM
I was and still am against the Boykins being in the AKC registry. This opened the door for folks to put the dogs in the show ring instead of the field. People will exploit the looks of the dog for thier own benifit.
This is one reason i try and sell my pups only to hunters. Too many people love the looks of Boykins and want one for that purpose only. I often talk people out of it, unless i have a pup that just doesnt seem to have "it".
I have relatives who show dogs, and they even say some of the breeds no longer resemble what they used to look like.
As for pointers, i know little about them. But i have seen some GSP's at dog show in Portland, and i dont think any of them would know a bird if it stood on its nose. They seemed distraught. Not what i see in the fields.
However, you were quick to jump in and register with the UKC which also does watered down dog shows??? But, because they let the Boykins "play the games" nobody will ever poo-poo the UKC right?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 11:32:10 AM
for the sake of argument, dogs with poor hip scores can go their entire lives and not be diagnosed with dysplasia. OFFA scores do not mean the dog is going down or can't run. Furthest from the truth. The score simply is a measurement of the orientation of the socket to the joint.
A dog with a poor score can easily run for hours without showing any sign of dysplasia. It could run it's whole life. Where that comes into play, is when it is never tested, gets bred a whole bunch and it's offspring get bred and nobody is doing it because, "It ran fine for hours"....
That is where many pointer breeders are off. Lab breeders felt the same way about CNM and PRA. My dog never shown signs of it and he's an FC. Breed away. Then, you start getting a few blind puppies showing up, nervous system issues etc. GSP's are no different or, many pointing breeds for that matter.
I think the problem with that argument is history. In the last 50 years it's not hard to see who has produced more dogs with horrifically dysplastic hips. Prancing around a show ring doesn't really show a lot of the flaws in a dog's gait nor does it demonstrate just how well a dog can take the day in, day out, ground pounding that a trial dog does.
Look, I'm not disagreeing with your underlying argument here. But a pointing dog with bad hips is going to have a hard time winning at the highest levels and is going to have a hard time with the physical conditioning that goes on.
Bad hips lead to bad gait which directly affects a dog's endurance...and if pointing dog trials are about anything over and above finding and pointing birds, it is endurance.
Where the danger appears is with backyard breeders. Guys breeding winning trial dogs have an eye for what they want. They aren't just slamming two champions together randomly. On that level I think you are correct. The farther removed you get from competition the more you can run into problem breedings. Some people like to stay away from up close trial dog breedings because they think they'll avoid a dog that runs over to the next county, in some cases that's fair, but it also raises the odds of getting a genetic frankenstein if a person doesn't know who and what they are dealing with.
Yes, the Lab folks did the exact thing you are talking about. They went about breeding on "perception" and "appearance". Occasionally, I'll agree you can "maybe" spot a dog with a questionable gait that could be associated with hips. However, just as easily that gait can be associated with a really bad topline or tail set which has nothing to do with hips yet makes dogs run funny.
Again, "the past 50 years" type justification for not doing it is not science, it's fiction. As we become more modern, we use technology everyday. For "those" breeders who think they spot dogs with questionable gaits, when they win double headers does that remove them from the breeding program even if they have a funny gait? I don't think so and that is exactly where the show lab people started deviating from the field type lines. Meaning, they used the same mentality and didn't look at health issues which is why the lab is short, fat, has PRA issues, hip and elbow problems through a lot of the lines. Show folks blame the field breeders and field breeders blame the show folks.
With the last sentence, this is where we get into the breed club debates and the breed description on the AKC. There is ZERO anything which you can blame the AKC for when it comes to an animals description or type. This is 100% the members of the said breed clubs.
It is one reason I am active with the American Chesapeake Club. I am on the field trial committee, chairing the 2014 National Field Trial and Judging at the 2014 Chesapeake All Breed Field Trial in California.
Post by: AspenBud on December 17, 2013, 11:56:19 AM
Again, "the past 50 years" type justification for not doing it is not science, it's fiction.
It's not a justification, it's a fact. It wasn't pointing dog field trialers who brought on those problems.
Again, I hear what you're saying and as a matter of principle I agree with what you're arguing for. But the argument that these problems are going to increase...that just doesn't hold water as it relates to pointing dogs and field trials. Breedings that slide backwards in musculoskeletal health lose. Plain and simple. The first sign of that and dogs start getting cut.
Now if you're argument is that a slide in physical health could become accepted, well, who knows. I've had this argument with some friends of mine as it relates to cancer in Pointers. It's not a horribly prevalent problem, yet, but depending on who you talk to it can be seen as acceptable. Some guys would rather have a dog that croaks at 10 rather than deteriorates in old age and others find dogs 10 and older to be past their prime and just want them off their string and out of their kennel so if cancer takes them younger, so be it. I don't agree with that mentality, but it exists. At the top end field trialing is a business and that can lead to some more unpalatable practices, kind of like horse racing.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 12:11:58 PM
And from the other standpoint, the Brittany has the most Dual Champions of any breed is probably close to truth.
It's semantics when we argue if the "way" those championships are achieved breed to breed- Either way, to be a "show champion" you still have to win in the ring against other examples of your own breed.
Post by: wildweeds on December 17, 2013, 12:32:52 PM
about the size of the dog limiting it's ability to be competitive National champion Johnny Crockett was a small statured dog with a very very big heart and the toughness to win multiple hour championships(Texas Open, and a 3 hour National championship) against the best of the best during his time,he was a hair over 30 pounds.His pointer competition were all over most likely 55 pounds and up to 65-70,Hicks rising sun was a monster of a setter at 80 pounds(as described in the notes on my pedigree program).Your right though a person does not show up to the line to cut a dog loose that doesn't have the bonestructure/stamina/confirmation to get it done,so the dog weeds itself out of contention,and the guy who bred that dog ends up having it in the bone pile cull yard and that breeding never occurs again and mental note is made of what blood to what blood caused it.
Bud
As far as the cancer goes in pointers,yeah its prevalant in the fiddler/fiddling rocky boy/Joe shadow/*censored* Tonk Attitude stuff,if you bear that in mind when you get a pup from that blood you really are not getting cheated out of nothing if you know.They for #1 Mature very fast,Perform very good at a young age and near as I can tell while still derby aged have more skillset and talent that dogs a couple years older than them.Comparing it that way to have a dog that performs like a 6 year old at less than 2 that succumbs early at say 8 years old is still a better performer than his counterpart 5-6 year old.
That's because pointing dog trials naturally weed out unhealthy dogs. Good luck laying down a solid hour with bad hips or a bad heart. Other trial venues do nothing to test the stamina or physical ability of a dog, and thus unhealthy dogs can actually win. That's why AF doesn't need to post a "standard" either. A largely oversized or undersized dog will never be able to compete.
And to all........ The only difference between a wire and a Draht is one has american pedigree and the other has a German pedigree but they are the Same dog with different bred for qualities in the area of sharpness. Draht is wire in the german language and Haar is Hair.For the Short hair folks Kurz is German for Short.
Post by: jetjockey on December 17, 2013, 02:43:15 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 03:04:39 PM
THE AKC DOES NOT PUT ON EVENTS OR PROMOTE BREEDS...
You've drank too much AF milk today..
Post by: jetjockey on December 17, 2013, 03:08:06 PM
The AKC puts on TONS of events!!!
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 03:17:43 PM
The Nationals typically take proposals from host clubs to hold each national event usually two years out if I remember correctly. The events rotate time zones.
Yes, the AKC does NOT put on any events. It is a "honor" for most clubs to win the bid to host an event. The AKC provides little to nothing for the host club. In Retrievers the AKC National Retriever Field Trial event is managed by the Retriever National Club.
Same with the AKC Master National. There is a Master National Club which in turn organizes other local clubs to host the event. They are their own entity.
The AKC does NOTHING> :)
Post by: jetjockey on December 17, 2013, 03:23:41 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 03:25:40 PM
It's still an AKC event! Otherwise it would be the "host club" event! It's no different than the American Brittany Club Championships that are held by differnt host clubs. The ribbons, trophys, and checks all come from the ABC, but the events are hosted by different clubs.
You don't really know much about AKC events and its showing.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 03:30:25 PM
National Retriever Club 2013 Championship
Event Info | View Entries | Print Version Print View | PDF
Welcome Statement
2013 National Retriever Championship
Date: Sunday, November 17 – Saturday, November 23, 2013
Location: Properties in and around Cheraw, SC
Judges:
Jim Cope
8810 Greenwood Trail
Rowlett, TX 75088
Phil Heye
501 South 1st Street
Lagrange, KY 40031
Larry Smith
15670 Elkhorn Lane
Reno, NV 89506
Schedule of Meetings and Social Activities
Saturday, November 16, 2013 Theatre on the Green, 200 Market St., Cheraw, SC 29520
8:00 am - NRC Board of Directors Meeting
11:00 am – Field Trial Committee & Judges
2:00 pm – Retriever Advisory Committee
3:00 pm – National Retriever Club Annual Meeting
4:00 pm – or immediately following the annual meeting. Committee Meetings
Chairpersons & Co-Chairpersons will meet with their committee members.
Cocktail Party:
Saturday, November 16, 2013, 6:30 pm, Cheraw State Park, Club House. Cocktail attire for the ladies, jackets for the gentlemen.
Southern Hospitality Party:
Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 6:30 pm, Bill’s BBQ, 3566 Highway 9, Cheraw, SC. Everyone invited, courtesy of City of Cheraw and Chamber of Commerce.
Workers Party:
Wednesday, November 20, 2013, 6:30 pm, Wine Factory, 165 2nd St., Cheraw, SC 29520
Headquarters:
Quality Inn
885 Chesterfield Hwy.
Cheraw, SC 29520
843-537-5625
Location
Dates
Nov 17, 2013 - Nov 23, 2013
Entries
Enter online at www.entryexpress.net (http://www.entryexpress.net) or
mail entries and make checks payable to:
Entry Express Inc
P.O. Box 743
115 S. Greenwood St. (UPS & FedEx)
Charleston AR 72933
Mailed entries MUST include the $20.00 Adminstrative Fee per entry
Online entries have a fee of $20.00 per entry
Entries will close at 11:59 PM Central Time on 11/04/2013
Event Secretary Event Chairman
Mitch Patterson
Addison IL
630-688-5997
Tommy Parrish
Clinton SC
864-923-0220
Committee Members
First Name Last Name Title
Craig Stonesifer NRC President
Joe Broyles NRC Vice-President
Mitch Patterson NRC Secretary/Treasurer
Steve Karr NRC Director
Gary Zellner NRC Director
Jeff Talley Chief Marshal
Mark Menzies Game Stewards - Chairman
Alvin Hatcher Game Stewards - Co-Chair
Chris Bishop Grounds - Co-Chair
Bill Clark Grounds - Co-Chair
Swinton Anderson Traffic - Co-Chair
Dave Kress Traffic - Co-Chair
Jason Baker Bird Thrower - Chairman
Gwen & Alan Pleasant Bird Thrower - Co-Chair
Al Arthur Bird Thrower - Co-Chair
Richard Smith Gunner - Captain
Olen Bielski Gunner - Co-Captain
Sara Goldstein Hostess - Chairperson
Martha McCool Merchandise - Purchaser
Dana Stonesifer Merchandise - Chairperson
Vicki Lamb Official Announcer
Tina Styan Official Reporter
Molly Schlachter Official Photographer
Gwen Jones Corporate Sponsor Liaison
Ginger Cope Corporate Sponsor Liaison
Bill Goldstein Training Grounds
Post by: jetjockey on December 17, 2013, 03:31:08 PM
It's still an AKC event! Otherwise it would be the "host club" event! It's no different than the American Brittany Club Championships that are held by differnt host clubs. The ribbons, trophys, and checks all come from the ABC, but the events are hosted by different clubs.
You don't really know much about AKC events and its showing.
I thought you said the AKC doesn't put on events?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 03:40:31 PM
It's still an AKC event! Otherwise it would be the "host club" event! It's no different than the American Brittany Club Championships that are held by differnt host clubs. The ribbons, trophys, and checks all come from the ABC, but the events are hosted by different clubs.
You don't really know much about AKC events and its showing.
I thought you said the AKC doesn't put on events?
The National Retriever Club put on the event. Provided the Chairpersons and Co-Chairpersons. Are you confused about what an AKC "Sanctioned" event means? It means the event follows the guidelines and rules set forth by the AKC which allows participants to earn an AKC Title.
The AKC doesn't put on events.
Post by: jetjockey on December 17, 2013, 03:58:40 PM
Happy, you might know a lot about Retiever trials, but you know nothing about Pointing dog trials and the many different clubs. I suggest you keep to retrievers, because you don't know a thing about pointing dogs. Or are you going to tell me how much better the AKC is than AF again? Remember when you didn't even know what American Field was?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 05:58:11 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 17, 2013, 07:10:13 PM
Post by: AspenBud on December 17, 2013, 07:21:10 PM
Bud
As far as the cancer goes in pointers,yeah its prevalant in the fiddler/fiddling rocky boy/Joe shadow/*censored* Tonk Attitude stuff,if you bear that in mind when you get a pup from that blood you really are not getting cheated out of nothing if you know.They for #1 Mature very fast,Perform very good at a young age and near as I can tell while still derby aged have more skillset and talent that dogs a couple years older than them.Comparing it that way to have a dog that performs like a 6 year old at less than 2 that succumbs early at say 8 years old is still a better performer than his counterpart 5-6 year old.
I can add some lines/names to that list. But God help you for bringing it up in some circles. People don't want to talk about it or deny it.
I can, however, think of some lines that live a good long while and produce starting at a young age in the manner you describe. But they are not all H0nky Tonk, Fiddler, Miller, Elhew, etc. I think a lot of guys have fallen into the trap of inbreeding or tap dancing on the line too much, Bob Wehle did it after all, but you can bet Wehle also culled a lot to get what he wanted. Something that most breeders, many of whom don't have the resources (money, land, time) that Wehle had, don't or can't do.
Post by: pens fan on December 17, 2013, 09:05:42 PM
That, plus I promised a guy in Wisconsin I would get this dog his started title.
I do enjoy the events, and they are not so uptight as AKC events. Also, even though the HRC events are still a bit of what I call unrealistic hunt tests, AKC is even further from my tastes. Its just a personal thing, like why some people prefer pointer hunting over flushing.
I wont even run any of my dogs in HRC upland tests because i dont want my flusher to sit on the flush. Some people think its a great thing and shows....something. Whatever. Not my thing.
Post by: pens fan on December 17, 2013, 09:23:12 PM
I am still intetested in UKC or HRC...i dont care what it is...hunt tests because its fun. I dont feel the stress like i felt at the AKC tests. People there are argumentative and uptight. And not very helpful. That was my observation, catalyzed with testemonials from other people who switch back and forth, and if there's a stink being raised at the test.....you can guess who's making it.
Post by: jetjockey on December 18, 2013, 02:05:38 AM
Like I've said before, you might know a lot about retrievers, but you don't know squat about pointing dogs. Also read the entry. See where it says Club? What's it say? Who's the club?
As far as me running my dog, that's another thing you don't understand. Unless a person is retired, independently wealthy, or has a job they can take with them on the road, there is no way for a working class person to run a dog on the circuit without the dog being with a Pro. My dog started the fall off in Nebraska, then ran in Iowa, then Kansas, followed by Tennessee, Missouri, and finished up in Arkansas. All the trials except one, were 1 hour trials ran during the week. When I can, I get out and run her, which included the Amateur Nationals this year. I currently need one point to finish her AFC, and the biggest hurdle, the two required wins, are in the bag. Pointing dog trials work differently than retriever trials. That's just something you will eventually have to learn.
Post by: pens fan on December 18, 2013, 12:13:43 PM
As far as AKC and all that...we got way off topic of the most versatile pointers.
Happy has invested interest in the AKC, and if he is happy :) about it, no sense in going into the contraries on this thread.
Lets get back to pointers. And Boykins.... :chuckle:
As Phil Robertson says, " happy. Happy.happy."
Post by: rosscrazyelk on December 18, 2013, 01:31:28 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 18, 2013, 03:01:40 PM
The event will kick off on Saturday, March 16, 2013. There will be two Championship stakes (retrieving and non-retrieving) plus an Open Derby Classic. A portion of the event’s proceeds will support the NFTA’s effort to maintain and improve the Branched Oak Dog Trial Area leased from the Nebraska Games and Parks Commission (NGPC).
No vested interest. It's just the way it works. Clubs put on AKC events. Not the AKC. Above is from the premium on the AKC website.
Post by: jetjockey on December 18, 2013, 03:21:02 PM
Who ever you write the check too, is who puts on the event. The funny thing is Happy said AKC is ONLY a breed registry, yet by his above post, he admits the AKC has a performance department. I wonder what the Performance Department has to do with breed registry? Like Happy said, the AKC picked the NFTA to run the event. The NFTA is an AKC Club, which means the AKC picked one of their clubs to run the event. In other words, It's an AKC event, and that's why you write the check to the AKC, and not the NFTA.
The NFTA ran the event, they didn't put on the event.
Just keep thinking the AKC is the end all be all for pointing dogs Happy. That way when someone tells you their English Pointer is an AKC Pointer National Champion, you will be really impressed!
Post by: Shannon on December 18, 2013, 04:22:56 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 18, 2013, 04:34:23 PM
Apple doesn't actually make an IPhone. It's some Chineese dude who works for a seperate company in China. Yet, it's still an Apple IPhone.
Who ever you write the check too, is who puts on the event. The funny thing is Happy said AKC is ONLY a breed registry, yet by his above post, he admits the AKC has a performance department. I wonder what the Performance Department has to do with breed registry? Like Happy said, the AKC picked the NFTA to run the event. The NFTA is an AKC Club, which means the AKC picked one of their clubs to run the event. In other words, It's an AKC event, and that's why you write the check to the AKC, and not the NFTA.
The NFTA ran the event, they didn't put on the event.
Just keep thinking the AKC is the end all be all for pointing dogs Happy. That way when someone tells you their English Pointer is an AKC Pointer National Champion, you will be really impressed!
LOL, you just don't get it. The club PAYS the AKC an event fee to hold an AKC sanctioned event. The entries are written to the club. The club manages the money. I've run quite a handful of AKC hunt tests and I'm chairperson for next years trial. I have a little bit of an understanding of who gets paid, how the money flow works and how AKC is involved. 99% of retriever clubs use Entry Express for paying entry fees. I believe a Brittany club recently used them for a trial. I've also seen a few cocker etc clubs use it. Money goes to the club once the entry is closed. They cut a check to the club. That's usually when the clubs pay their bird suppliers, workers etc.
You want the Performance Dept. managers cell number? I have it if you'd like to call and ask how many trials a year he puts on... lol..
Post by: jetjockey on December 18, 2013, 05:01:05 PM
Tell me, here's the placements for a trial. Who deserves the credit for putting the trial on? What did the ribbons say?
http://www.remekvizslas.net/showTrialResults.php4?id=60181 (http://www.remekvizslas.net/showTrialResults.php4?id=60181)
Post by: wildweeds on December 18, 2013, 05:14:41 PM
I'm wondering something about cedarwoods pudels, did he take over for Bodil Winderhelt(my spelling of both first and last name is more than likely off) ?
I'll stand by my statement that I'm glad my breed of choice is not recognized by AKC and that they have ruined some breeds of dogs. I'm not going to get into the bickering but if there are any comments on the original post I'm interested in those and would like to continue that discussion. :)
Post by: Shannon on December 18, 2013, 06:36:28 PM
He didn't take over for Bodo he just got some of his first breeding stock from him 30 years ago. I'm going off of memory here so don't take it as gospel, but a doctor along with Bodo were the first to breed pudelpointers here in the US. The doctors line was called Birchwoods. Some of Bob's first breed stock was from that line also. Bodo was breeding dogs until last year. I think he died this last summer. Bodo started NAVHDA and then left that and started the PCNA for testing. Bob stayed with NAVHDA for testing because the PCNA only tested in Oregon and California mostly and he lives in Idaho.
Post by: RC3 on December 18, 2013, 09:12:08 PM
Post by: AspenBud on December 19, 2013, 07:19:23 AM
Either AKC or not, those trials in my opinion they are useless for evaluating a pointing dog's hunting abilities especially a V-dog.
Which trials? You just took a very broad brush there and lumped together many venues that are judged completely differently and apparently passed over trials that are run on wild birds.
For versatile breeds I agree however. But that's why you have groups like NAVHDA, the VHDF, and the other groups more closely focused on the German testing system(s). But they have their flaws as well.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 19, 2013, 09:18:11 AM
Yet you write the check to the AKC? Happy, your missing the point. You said the AKC is a breed registry, and that's it. It's obvious based on these posts, that the AKC is much more than a breed registry. While they don't directly run trials, indirectly they do. So you have the ABC, or NGSPA (or whatever the AKC version is) run in trials, it's still the AKC. They just pick which club is going to run the trial for them. At the end of the day though, it really doesn't matter. In the pointing dog world the AKC is considered a second rate citizen to the American Field. That's what you can't seem to comprehend. You've never Jenn able to comprehend that. Heck, I can research the post where you didn't even know what AF was if you'd like. Your a Retiever guy, who knows nothing about pointing dogs. You can argue simantics all your like, but at the end of the day, the AKC GD Nationals is put on by the AKC. I don't care who they pick to run the trial, it's an AKC trial at the end of the day. The same AKC who supposedly is only a breed registration. The same AKC you write a check to for your entry fee, and the same AKC who registers the wins.
Tell me, here's the placements for a trial. Who deserves the credit for putting the trial on? What did the ribbons say?
http://www.remekvizslas.net/showTrialResults.php4?id=60181 (http://www.remekvizslas.net/showTrialResults.php4?id=60181)
You don't write your check to the AKC and the AKC is not putting on the trial. The trial is a "sanctioned" AKC event. Basically, it's like saying the National Football League puts on every Seahawks game. They don't. The Hawks pay a licensing fee to be a team, they must be approved by the NFL to be a team. However, the team must get it's stadium, workers, coaches etc. They have to pay for all of this because the NFL doesn't pay for stadiums to hold events, they will help a little by advertising a schedule on their website for member teams like the AKC. They have operational rules like the AKC and they have representatives which make sure teams are following the rules much like the AKC.
I'm not standing up for the AKC and I agree that AF has been around longer and certainly has all of the best dogs. What I am doing is pointing out that you don't know what you are talking about regarding how AKC events are ran and who runs them. Sorry to hurt your feelings. When you've run a few events like I have, when you've been the chairperson a few times, when you've been asked to hold, put on and judge national events you might understand this and then give me a call. At that time you can again remind me that AKC is crappy and AF is awesome or whatever else you'd like to throw in there that has nothing to do with what you don't get.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 19, 2013, 09:29:32 AM
Either AKC or not, those trials in my opinion they are useless for evaluating a pointing dog's hunting abilities especially a V-dog.
I've never done a V dog trial however, I've trained with a guy a few times who's made it to some invitational level test. I trained with him to see what the tests are about going through his routine.
One was a "Dead" hunt. A duck is put into an area of heavy cover and is supposed to hunt that area for a prolonged period of time without coming out. To me, this was no different than retriever trial blind. The dog is sent back and is not to stop until told otherwise.
Another was handling. I found the interpretation of handling very different from what I'm used to with retrievers. The handling required was very minimal. The dog wouldn't pass a seasoned HRC test.
The trailing is a good skill which I think should be used on more levels. I believe the HRC upland test has a trailing series but, not in the regular tests or AKC tests is the dog ever put into a trailing game scenario.
The water tests aren't much. I think they must get all four feet off the ground. I cannot recall if he said a retrieve to hand was required but, he was working on it. Most of the dogs in the pointing world are not force fetched.FF. It's probably best to say that there are very few pointing trainers who know that FF has little to do with picking up or holding a bird. That is fine because that is the only task most pointers will ever need beyond their natural abilities.
The "theory" behind the tests is all good and like every other scenario, they're trying to paint a picture of what makes the handler feel best for their dog. No matter type of testing you do, it all comes down to the fact that the dogs all know the difference between hunting and testing.
Post by: jetjockey on December 19, 2013, 10:54:13 AM
You don't write your check to the AKC
YES YOU DO! I've written the check! I even posted the 2013 Premium which stated directly on it that you make the check out to the AKC! You obviously want to ignore that because it flys I the face of your reasoning! But here you go again, I case you couldn't read it the first time!! The AKC GD Championship is an AKC event!
Who does it say you write the check to? I asked the question once before, but you refused to answer it. It says, AKC Gun Dog Championship! That's who you write the check too! I think it's pretty funny you think you know any I have and haven't done in the line of helping out and putting on trials. You don't have any idea what I have or haven't done!
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 19, 2013, 11:09:39 AM
Post by: canyonduck on December 19, 2013, 11:19:49 AM
Here’s the scoop. According to me and to me only. Every breed regardless if it is a true pointer (English), retriever (Chessy, Lab, etc), Flusher (spaniels), Versatile (Munsterlanders, Shorthairs, Griffons, Vizala, etc.) have a place in a hunter’s home. If it happens to be your home, then you will doubtless believe you have the greatest breed available.
A Versatile dog is already defined in the hunting and breeding world. It’s a pointer that retrieves from both land and water as well as has the proven capability to track. So while Webster’s defines “versatile” in a manner that would include every dog that we may be partial to because it fits the way we like to hunt, it isn’t a Versatile Hunting breed unless it meets the definition above.
Post by: jetjockey on December 19, 2013, 11:29:55 AM
"The 20th running of the AKC Pointing Breed Gun Dog Championship will be held at the Branched Oak Field Trial Grounds near Lincoln, Nebraska. The multi-day event, beginning Saturday, March 16, 2013, will consist of two Championship stakes (retrieving and non-retrieving), plus, for the first time, a supporting Open Derby Stake. A portion of the event’s proceeds will benefit the Nebraska Field Trial Association with its ongoing maintenance and improvements to the Branched Oaks grounds."
Post by: AspenBud on December 19, 2013, 11:34:25 AM
Another was handling. I found the interpretation of handling very different from what I'm used to with retrievers. The handling required was very minimal. The dog wouldn't pass a seasoned HRC test.
Believe it or not I've seen a number of guys complain that the handling required at versatile hunting dog hunt tests is too much. If a dog stretches the range out and hits objectives rather than wasting time closer in on areas less likely to have birds, they are often called "self hunters." That's my understanding at least.
That said, if you're into the versatile game you are in it for more discipline and handling since the dogs may be expected to sit in a blind and retrieve a duck as well as dig up upland birds. A true upland pointing dog won't have that expectation and can be allowed to hunt more freely. The only thing it needs to do is be highly athletic, handle, hold a point, and possibly retrieve. I'm glossing over STWS etc but that's the crux of it.
At the end of it there is no right or wrong. Outside of tests and trials it's hunters' preferences.
Post by: jetjockey on December 19, 2013, 11:38:12 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 19, 2013, 11:42:34 AM
BTW Happy. In 2012, there was no host club for the AKC GD Nationals. It was entirely put on by the AKC and volunteers at the Ames Plantation.
You were the treasurer?
Post by: Curly on December 19, 2013, 11:51:19 AM
Talk about getting all wound up and moving off topic.
Here’s the scoop. According to me and to me only. Every breed regardless if it is a true pointer (English), retriever (Chessy, Lab, etc), Flusher (spaniels), Versatile (Munsterlanders, Shorthairs, Griffons, Vizala, etc.) have a place in a hunter’s home. If it happens to be your home, then you will doubtless believe you have the greatest breed available.
A Versatile dog is already defined in the hunting and breeding world. It’s a pointer that retrieves from both land and water as well as has the proven capability to track. So while Webster’s defines “versatile” in a manner that would include every dog that we may be partial to because it fits the way we like to hunt, it isn’t a Versatile Hunting breed unless it meets the definition above.
Thanks for trying to get this back on topic. It is an interesting topic.
Question for you - You say a versatile dog is defined in the hunting and breeding world. Does the versatile dog have to be a pointer? Where does that definition you quote come from?
:dunno:
Post by: jetjockey on December 19, 2013, 11:53:53 AM
Conclusion
As your scribe, I have felt an obligation to report the highlights of each dog. This Championship brought together many of the top dogs from all the major pointing breeds. With the historic Ames Plantation being the setting for showcasing these fine dogs, the obligation was felt even greater. I can tell you that many handlers freely expressed their profound experience of testing their dogs at this challenging location. I have not witnessed this kind of emotional experience, by so many, before. The event was a National Championship in every sense yet I believe it will have an even greater impact over time. For the hundreds that were there and the thousands more that followed it on the internet and through social media, I believe this event has challenged perceptions and provoked new thoughts. I feel sure the event will be discussed and debated at local field trials and summer camps for years to come.
This event had been in the planning stages for over a year. Doug Ljungren, AVP of Performance Events was the first to conceive of the possibility of running at Ames. Doug approached Rick Carlisle, Superintendent of the Plantation with the idea. A key step in getting Rick comfortable with hosting the event was Doug’s request of Ken Blackman to be the Chairman for the trial. Ken is a neighbor in the area and well known by the Plantation. With Ken’s enthusiastic acceptance, the deal was finalized. There is no doubt that this event would not have occurred if it were not for Doug and Ken.
When it became apparent that running at the Ames Plantation was going to become a reality, there was never a question who Doug would ask to be the event secretary. An event of this magnitude needed Trish James on board. Trish had demonstrated her organizational skills, work ethic, and charming personality when this event ran in Danville, VA. Trish was to say the least, instrumental. Her hard work led to a well-organized and smooth running trial.
With the key players in place, planning for the event started to pick up. With Doug and Ken taking the lead, the big decisions were made with the full involvement of the AKC field staff, Trish and Ken Marden, who had been recruited as Treasurer for the event. As the event grew closer, Doug handed the reins to Ken B as the issues became more local in nature. Ken’s enthusiasm and high standard of preparedness resulted in a well-coordinated and enjoyable event. We owe him a great deal of gratitude for his tireless efforts.
In putting together the potential list of judges for this event, the AKC is always on the lookout for the right type of judge to preside over this most important trial. I believe that this year’s panel was one of the best to date. Varying from the usual format of two judges, we added a third member to the panel. The addition was a positive move. David Taylor of Neola IA, Kevin Waide of Parker CO, and Tom Milam of El Mott, TX were very professional in their approach to their assignment. These gentlemen were very observant, positive and fair in their judgment. Theirs was a herculean job and they performed it well. Over and over, contestants commented on the friendly, helpful, and positive manner in which they conducted themselves. I can assure you that I would run a dog under them and expect an honest appraisal. It has been an honor and privilege to ride with these gentlemen.
The wide spread support from the local community was noted and welcomed by all. The Ames staff was there to marshal us around the course, which was much appreciated since even after two weeks I am not sure I could find my way home. Moses from the County Sherriff’s office was there to guard the road crossings even on Saturdays, one of his days off work. The Ladies of Hickory Valley were there every morning to keep the coffee fresh and serve us Big Al’s biscuits. They provided helpful information to the field trialers that needed local services. We received many comments from the local folks regarding the friendliness and good sportsmanship exhibited by the participants.
Local dog professional Nick Thompson was available to lend his knowledge of the courses and dog savvy to anyone that requested him to scout. Nick has scouted 4 of the last 6 American Field National Champions run at the plantation. To say he knows his way around the grounds is an understatement. Without the help of Nick many of the dogs would have been lost. Away from the dog game Nick lives his life in the good way. Hard working, Christian, family man, Nick and his wife have provided homes to several children that needed guidance in their life, as foster parents, adopting 2 of these young people. Without Nick and the other local dog people that helped out at this event it surely would not have been the successful trial it was. There is one charming lady that was on hand every day. Vera Courtney, owner of Cedar Oak Photography, was present at every brace taking pictures that captured the action and spirit of the event. Vera has been the field trial photographer at Ames for many years. She knows where to be to get photos that capture dogs and people in a beautiful manner. She has granted permission for me to post many of her photos that have been used online by the AKC to highlight this event. Possessing that wonderful southern charm, she is a delight to work with and we were fortunate to have her on hand. Vera has put together a DVD of her pictures from this event and is selling it at a nominal fee to anyone that would like to see inside this event. She can be contacted at Vera Courtney, PO Box 133, 840 Ames Road, Hickory Valley, TN 38042. Her home number is 731-764-2414 and her cell number is 731-433-9145. She can also be reached by email at veracourney@bellsouth.net. I encourage everyone to obtain one of these DVDs as she has hundreds of photos that I have not been able to post to the web.
Many sponsors added to the enjoyment of this trial. Their donations have run the gambit from monetary donations, product donations, hosting meals, and hosting happy hours. It would be impossible to hold an event of this quality without their generous support. Representatives from our great sponsors were on hand throughout. The Gun Dog Championship Association is pleased to receive the continued support of the organizations that have been with us for years but is also happy to welcome new sponsors to the group. These organizations come to the plate to help us in hosting our dog events and we need to support them with our business. Each sponsor offers products that are top line and are used by the long term participants in our sport. Sponsors for the 2012 AKC Gun Dog Championship, listed alphabetically, were Avery Outdoors, Bank of Fayette County, Christie Enterprises, Dogs Unlimited, Eukanuba, Fayette County Chamber of Commerce, Firefly Farms, Garmin, Gun Dog Supply, Hardeman County Chamber of Commerce, Hobart Ames Foundation, Purina, SportsDOG, and Tritronics. I am sure you recognize many of these sponsors as they represent the leading edge of the field dog industry. We all thank them for their support!
I would be remiss if I did not thank my co-workers and good friends on the AKC Staff. Gary Sadler and Bonnie Hidalgo assisted me each day in compiling the information that went into the daily reports. Mel Stewart and Jim Odle, Beagle field reps assisted in moving horses and people during the first week, while Tom Meyer, Spaniel field rep stepped into this role during the second week. Doug Ljungren was on hand the entire second week and it was good to spend this much time with him. They are all professional in their approach, hardworking, and just good people. I am very fortunate to be associated with these fine individuals.
On to next year! I hope to see you in March at Branched Oak in Nebraska.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 19, 2013, 11:55:51 AM
As long as your dog breed was not developed in North America you have a ok dog according to NAVHDA.. :) They say so right on their webpage.
Post by: canyonduck on December 19, 2013, 12:07:57 PM
Talk about getting all wound up and moving off topic.
Here’s the scoop. According to me and to me only. Every breed regardless if it is a true pointer (English), retriever (Chessy, Lab, etc), Flusher (spaniels), Versatile (Munsterlanders, Shorthairs, Griffons, Vizala, etc.) have a place in a hunter’s home. If it happens to be your home, then you will doubtless believe you have the greatest breed available.
A Versatile dog is already defined in the hunting and breeding world. It’s a pointer that retrieves from both land and water as well as has the proven capability to track. So while Webster’s defines “versatile” in a manner that would include every dog that we may be partial to because it fits the way we like to hunt, it isn’t a Versatile Hunting breed unless it meets the definition above.
Thanks for trying to get this back on topic. It is an interesting topic.
Question for you - You say a versatile dog is defined in the hunting and breeding world. Does the versatile dog have to be a pointer? Where does that definition you quote come from?
:dunno:
While anyone could argue what the definition of is is. NAVHDA - North America Versatile Hunt Dog Association - does a decent job for Versatile as follows:
"In the field, a versatile dog should exhibit a fine nose, staunch pointing and the desire to search for, track and retrieve game in a cooperative manner. A versatile dog needs to further prove his independence, stamina and quality of nose by transferring his search for, and retrieving of game, to the water."
Post by: Curly on December 19, 2013, 12:18:18 PM
Post by: AspenBud on December 19, 2013, 12:32:44 PM
Cool. 8) Thanks. I was just curious. Now I'll just have to wonder why they think to be versatile the dog has to be a pointer???
Tradition
Post by: AspenBud on December 19, 2013, 12:46:58 PM
Another was handling. I found the interpretation of handling very different from what I'm used to with retrievers. The handling required was very minimal. The dog wouldn't pass a seasoned HRC test.
Believe it or not I've seen a number of guys complain that the handling required at versatile hunting dog hunt tests is too much. If a dog stretches the range out and hits objectives rather than wasting time closer in on areas less likely to have birds, they are often called "self hunters." That's my understanding at least.
That said, if you're into the versatile game you are in it for more discipline and handling since the dogs may be expected to sit in a blind and retrieve a duck as well as dig up upland birds. A true upland pointing dog won't have that expectation and can be allowed to hunt more freely. The only thing it needs to do is be highly athletic, handle, hold a point, and possibly retrieve. I'm glossing over STWS etc but that's the crux of it.
At the end of it there is no right or wrong. Outside of tests and trials it's hunters' preferences.
I have to come back to my own quote here. I'm pretty sure handling like this would not win points at a NAVHDA hunt test. But these aren't "versatile" dogs either...
Ruffed Grouse "Coverdog" Trial
Pointing Dog Field Trail Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqPaDHe9k5A#ws)
National Championship
National Championship Videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9FukGHrhm0#ws)
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 19, 2013, 01:05:18 PM
:) of the 20,000 AKC events per year this shouldn't be so hard for you to come up with one?
From AKC list of licensed performance clubs;
AKC Pointing Breed Gun Dog Championship
4508 SANDFORT RD
SEALE, AL 36875
Club Type: FT
Web Site: None Provided
Territory: For Territory Information contact Club Relations ClubRelations@akc.org
Breed Competition Type
Affiliation Level
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FT Pointing Breed Field Trial Licensed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Club Contacts
Future Events
Past Events
President
Doug Ljungren 8051 ARCO CORPORATE DR
RALEIGH, NC 27617
Secretary Corresponding
Trish James 4508 SANDFORT RD
SEALE, AL 36875
homeboarding@netzero.net
Treasurer
Tim Carwile 72 Providence Ln
Waynesboro, VA 22980
To update your club's officer information via email click here
Add a Quick Link to this Club Page:
Copy and paste any of the following links to add a link of this club page to your flyers, posters, emails or other promotional material.
Link of Club Number - http://www.akc.org/akc_clubs/index.cfm?5525 (http://www.akc.org/akc_clubs/index.cfm?5525)
Link of Abbreviated Club Name - http://www.akc.org/akc_clubs/index.cfm?AKCPntgBreedGunDogCh (http://www.akc.org/akc_clubs/index.cfm?AKCPntgBreedGunDogCh)
Link of Club Name - http://www.akc.org/akc_clubs/index.cfm?AKCPointingBreedGunDogChampionship (http://www.akc.org/akc_clubs/index.cfm?AKCPointingBreedGunDogChampionship)
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 19, 2013, 01:28:59 PM
American Chesapeake Club, Inc.
PO BOX 92
WILLIAMSTOWN, KY 41097
Club Type: PS/O/RLY/TR/TX/VST/TDU/FT/HT/AG
Web Site: http://www.amchessieclub.org (http://www.amchessieclub.org)
Territory: For Territory Information contact Club Relations ClubRelations@akc.org
Breed Competition Type
Affiliation Level
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chesapeake Bay Retriever Agility Member
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Chesapeake Bay Retriever Field Trial Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HT Retriever Hunting Test Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chesapeake Bay Retriever Obedience Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chesapeake Bay Retriever Parent Specialty Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chesapeake Bay Retriever AKC Rally® Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chesapeake Bay Retriever Tracking Dog Urban Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chesapeake Bay Retriever Tracking Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chesapeake Bay Retriever Tracking Excellent Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chesapeake Bay Retriever Variable Surface Tracking Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Club Contacts
Future Events
Past Events
President
JoAnne Silver 412 Woodbury Dr
Wyckoff, NJ 07481
chessiecrazy@yahoo.com
Secretary Corresponding
Eleanore Domek PO BOX 92
WILLIAMSTOWN, KY 41097
rockpoint@mindspring.com
Treasurer
George Marthinuss PO BOX 219
CLEMMONS, NC 27012
gmarthinus@aol.com
Delegate
Timothy Carrion 3101 WALNUT AVE
OWINGS MILLS, MD 21117
have2train@aol.com
Breeder Referral Contact
Dana Gary 2167 WESTMINSTER AVE
SALT LAKE CITY, UT 84108
Breed Rescue Contact
Linda Harger 4435 N BLACK CAT RD
MERIDIAN, ID 83646
Legislative Liaison
Susan Cone 28 CHESTNUT ST
LIVINGSTON, NJ 07039
suecone@mindspring.com
Judges Education Coordinator
Betsy Horn Humer PO BOX 226
PUNGOTEAGUE, VA 23422
Tiderunr2@verizon.net
Post by: jetjockey on December 19, 2013, 01:32:37 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 19, 2013, 01:33:47 PM
Oh God you are an idiot. The PM's were right!
yup, they were right alright! I get them about folks too however, from folks who actually train dogs, not write checks to trainers for a living. lol
Post by: jetjockey on December 19, 2013, 01:40:28 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 19, 2013, 01:44:42 PM
http://clubs.akc.org/brit/NationalGunDogChampionships.htm (http://clubs.akc.org/brit/NationalGunDogChampionships.htm)
Post by: jetjockey on December 19, 2013, 01:52:43 PM
Btw. Here's a link to the NC.
http://clubs.akc.org/brit/NationalAllAgeChampionships.htm (http://clubs.akc.org/brit/NationalAllAgeChampionships.htm)
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 19, 2013, 02:01:33 PM
And your point? The ABC is a club under the umbrella of the AKC. You write the check for Nationals to the ABC, not the AKC. BTW. The GD Nationals isn't considered the real Nationals. That's why the AKC title says AKC GDNC, and not NFC! Nationals occurs in Booneville. Anything else you'd like to discuss which you know nothing about? BTW.. Check the date!
Btw. Here's a link to the NC.
http://clubs.akc.org/brit/NationalAllAgeChampionships.htm (http://clubs.akc.org/brit/NationalAllAgeChampionships.htm)
When you've done the events applications for a field trial, hunt test or event period, chaired events, sat on the board for events and get some judging assignments give me a holler to talk about that which I don't know-
Post by: jetjockey on December 19, 2013, 02:07:33 PM
Post by: Shannon on December 19, 2013, 04:54:17 PM
Quote
As long as your dog breed was not developed in North America you have a ok dog according to NAVHDA.. :) They say so right on their webpage.Can you name a pointing dog that was developed here in the US? What about any hunting dog in general? The Chesapeake is the only one I can think of and they don't point.
I like all dogs and enjoy any dog "games" but the NAVHDA UT test is the one that most closely resembles the kind of hunting I do. It's mostly a breeding test but I do it because I enjoy it. Some of the other trials and test don't resemble hunting anymore IMO in a lot of ways. That's not to say they aren't fun to watch and participate in.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 19, 2013, 05:03:55 PM
And by means of FF and pointers- few pointers if any are FF'd by modern standard of FF which typically is full collar conditioning etc- There is no need for it much more than a good hold which is easy to teach without the force by most.
As far as domestic breeds, once your two generations out from the grand dam, most people feel there is so little left that it doesn't matter. Just primarily the dam. So, that will narrow down most choices of foreign bred dogs to about 0.005% based upon how difficult it is to import dogs with waiting periods and quarantines.
Post by: Shannon on December 19, 2013, 05:20:04 PM
Quote
As far as domestic breeds, once your two generations out from the grand dam, most people feel there is so little left that it doesn't matter. Just primarily the dam. So, that will narrow down most choices of foreign bred dogs to about 0.005% based upon how difficult it is to import dogs with waiting periods and quarantines.I'm not quite sure what you mean by this but if I understand it, the majority of the dogs tested in NAVHDA are domestic.
Post by: RC3 on December 19, 2013, 06:20:26 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 20, 2013, 08:20:27 AM
In the circle of people I test with in NAVHDA, the majority use Evan Graham's Smart Fetch series to train there dogs. This originated in the retriever world so I'm not sure how different we train. Most drop off when it comes to major retriever handling on blinds but the basics are the same.QuoteAs far as domestic breeds, once your two generations out from the grand dam, most people feel there is so little left that it doesn't matter. Just primarily the dam. So, that will narrow down most choices of foreign bred dogs to about 0.005% based upon how difficult it is to import dogs with waiting periods and quarantines.I'm not quite sure what you mean by this but if I understand it, the majority of the dogs tested in NAVHDA are domestic.
That's my point exactly. The FF to a retriever has little to do with picking up the bird for a retrieve. That is just a tiny part of it in the big picture. FF teaches dogs to cope with pressure. It is really their first experience with it. It's a fine line and should be a fine line of what isn't enough pressure and applying too much. This prepares the dog to cope with the stresses which come with training. Force to pile, force to water, de cheating drills, handling etc- All processes which have little to no value to "most" pointing dogs. While many pointers can be fairly tough dogs, when put on a table most turn to jello.
Post by: Shannon on December 20, 2013, 08:53:16 AM
Post by: jetjockey on December 20, 2013, 09:03:09 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 20, 2013, 01:43:22 PM
Post by: JLS on December 20, 2013, 04:34:20 PM
It's two completely different worlds between pointers and retrievers. One is all about how much control we can have at any distance (retrievers) and the other is how much can you get out of a dog with as little handling as possible while in the field but yet still have the dog under control. I cringe when I run with a guy that blows his whistle more than a few times in a day while upland bird hunting. I've literally hunted all day without a single command except to fetch. That's my idea of a great day with a great dog. Its a night and day difference and the transition from retriever to pointer worlds isn't easy for most. Some lab guys wake up in a cold sweat with the thought of there dog flying around at full speed 300+ yards out sometimes out of sight for a while. :) That free spirit is what I enjoy the most about pointing dogs.
Very well stated. That perfectly sums up my conversion from a lab to a GWP. I constantly remind myself to just shut up and let him work. :)
Post by: rosscrazyelk on December 20, 2013, 09:38:46 PM
I have friends who have literally bought Boykins because of my dog. Oh yeah and two of them were bought from Pens fan...
Yes Pointers and all the other breeds have History so you can all go on with your arguments But I will tell you unless you been around a hunting Boykin you have not seen the most versitale dog..
Post by: JLS on December 20, 2013, 09:40:44 PM
Post by: rosscrazyelk on December 20, 2013, 10:38:54 PM
Post by: Spikorbust on December 21, 2013, 08:34:42 AM
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Post by: AspenBud on December 21, 2013, 09:08:16 AM
Not sure how pointing makes a dog more versatile.
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It doesn't. It's just a term used to differentiate between true pointers like Pointers and setters versus dogs that have more than pointing/retrieving in their job description.
Post by: jetjockey on December 21, 2013, 09:14:28 AM