Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Muzzleloader Hunting => Topic started by: Bowtech7 on December 16, 2013, 12:07:08 PM

Title: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Bowtech7 on December 16, 2013, 12:07:08 PM: Im going to muzzle load hunt next year for elk I shot a cow a year ago with my traditions tracker #11 nipple premeasured american Pioneer powder cartridges and a 348 grain powerbelt lead hollow point bullet at 100 yards then shot her again at 50 yards wasnt to impressed with the performance. So my question is is what is a good elk bullet, powder charge etc. for lung shot and bone hard shoulder shot from close range to 150 yards thats does alot of damage? And also will shoot a decent group. Thanks for reading
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: oneshot12 on December 16, 2013, 12:19:28 PM: try a patched round ball and 90 gr of 3 f powder
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Bowtech7 on December 16, 2013, 12:21:56 PM: Ok I will keep that in mind thank you
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: bobcat on December 16, 2013, 12:26:27 PM: Quote from: oneshot12 on December 16, 2013, 12:19:28 PM
try a patched round ball and 90 gr of 3 f powder

:yike: For elk? Deer maybe but I wouldn't use a round ball for elk when there are so many other, better options.

I would try the Bloodline bullets that "Sabotloader" is always recommending.

http://www.knightrifles.com/bloodline-bullets (http://www.knightrifles.com/bloodline-bullets)

Or if you want a much more inexpensive bullet, try a 400 grain Harvester hard cast bullet.
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Bowtech7 on December 16, 2013, 12:29:47 PM: Not to worried about cost just want good performance I will check those bullets out thanks
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: oneshot12 on December 16, 2013, 12:32:55 PM: yep been shooting round ball for a fair amount of time . killed many a critter with it as well . you just really need to go out and play around with the gun get real familiar with how it shoots and what works best in for a load or bullet for that matter . a friend on her was saying you can over charge the power belt bullet and the cup will not do as it suppose to and you will get blow by . so for what its worth you might want to try a sabot ed bullet in 50 cal i assume this is what your shooting then get out to the range and try different powder charges from say 80 and up to maybe 110 3 f burns fast and gives the better results good luck with your project and have fun
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Bowtech7 on December 16, 2013, 12:38:26 PM: Thanks oneshot I will have fun with it I like playing around with new things.
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Bowtech7 on December 16, 2013, 12:39:41 PM: Yes I am shooting a .50 cal
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: oneshot12 on December 16, 2013, 12:39:55 PM: I would try the Bloodline bullets that "Sabotloader" is always recommending. :tup:
your are correct Bob cat, Sabotloader has the right idea hes been shooting me a few of his great pointers as well. he was the one that gave me the info on the power belts .hes a big help for sure but i still like the patched round ball when your shooting a 1/66 twist GM barrel
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Bowtech7 on December 16, 2013, 12:46:43 PM: My tracker is a 24" barrel with a 1-28 twist
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: bobcat on December 16, 2013, 12:48:17 PM: With a slow twist- okay. But does a Traditions Tracker have a slow twist? I assumed it was a fast twist but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: oneshot12 on December 16, 2013, 12:49:20 PM: Bowtech7
sabotloader has all kind of great information ans is more then willing to share .hes been helping me work on loads and bullets for my remington 700 inline along with sights and so forth so don't hesitate to chat with him about any question you might have heck i been shooting black powder for years and its just fun to jaw with some of the others here that been shootin or are just starting out .most folks her shoot 50 cals but i shoot 54 cals so its nice to have a person like sabotloader to bounce ideas off and get some feedback on so its ok to ask away
any time
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: oneshot12 on December 16, 2013, 12:53:51 PM: no Bob cat i believe your correct, at a minimum it would be a 1/48 twist or even the 1/28 like my Remington if it is the faster twist 1/28 the round ball will fly all over the place and not settle down so the blood line sabots would be the best in my book
like i said before sabot loader has been helping me work out some of my bugs on the Remington and hes the hot ticket let me tell ya lots of help for sure
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: MountainDevil54 on December 16, 2013, 12:58:02 PM: Buy some Pyrodex RS.

American Pioneer has a learning curve to it and if you dont know it, most times it wont group for snot. Your bullets are fine for elk, just keep with lung shots like most hunters do. No need to waste meat by shooting it in the shoulder.
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Bowtech7 on December 16, 2013, 01:09:32 PM: Okay oneshot I might chat it up with sabotloader about some stuff. Mountaindevil everyone shoots different I have always been taught to take out the drivers(the shoulder) and have always had good success with I rifle on deer and elk I would rather waste a small amout of meat to know I made a good shot. obviously a bow is a behind the shoulder weapon.
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Sabotloader on December 16, 2013, 01:21:53 PM: Bowtech7

Just some thoughts.... stay away from the Pryo's if you can... T7 and I would suggest T7-3f for a cap gun would bethe powder that I would suggest... in fact either a 100 grains or 110 grains which ever you feel more comfortable with.. I would also suggest that you use a #11 MAG cap or even better a RWS 1075+ Dynamit Noble cap.

If I were to suggest a bullet to you and it would be the one I am using it would be the Lehigh .458-305 in either a MMP HPH .45x50 sabot or a HPH24 45x50 sabot which ever one fit more snug but still gives you the ability to load easy enough. This bullet is a real 45-70 rifle bullet and is held to tighter specifications than other ML bullets.

This is what the bullet looks like...

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2F458-305.jpg&hash=ed23af00ee24ea555cd266b7bac7ff6ebbfd8e22) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/458-305.jpg.html)

It is a long bullet and a 1-28 twist is right at the max you can shoot it with. The sabot has to be tighter so that the bullet gets every bit of rotation the 1-28 will give it.

A really good runnier up is the Knight Bloodline (built by Lehigh) .458-300. It is a shorter bullet and stabilizes very well in a 1-28 twist.

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FLehigh300DOA.jpg&hash=745411efe692901bdf43e61ca24d9c314dafcd5b) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Lehigh300DOA.jpg.html)

Then probably one of the best production bullets is the Speer .452-300 grain Deep Curl - but they are really hard to find - Speer can not make enough of them. They are a bonded copper/lead with controlled expansion.

But for elk and were it me... I am using the brass bullets...
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Bowtech7 on December 16, 2013, 01:53:50 PM: Thanks sabot loader I will give those a try thanks alot for the advise.
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Bowtech7 on December 16, 2013, 01:58:36 PM: Sabotloader as far as effective range for those bullets what am I looking at?
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Sabotloader on December 16, 2013, 02:29:53 PM: Quote from: Bowtech7 on December 16, 2013, 01:58:36 PM
Sabotloader as far as effective range for those bullets what am I looking at?

I shoot them to 200 yards that is my self imposed range - they will go farther...

I will include a couple of ballistic sheets - I use a 3" Point Blank Range when sighting in so you can see at a 100 yards I am about 3" high and at about 180 yards I am about 3" low. For me it takes a lot of the guess work out of aiming...

This is the ballistics for the 305 Lehigh

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FBallistic%2520Sheets%2F458-305Ballistics_zps95b3448d.jpg&hash=7196429ed499f47ac2d95da8c199e26c44b6d829) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Ballistic%20Sheets/458-305Ballistics_zps95b3448d.jpg.html)

This is the ballistics for the 300 Bloodline

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FBallistic%2520Sheets%2FKnightRMEF300grLehigh.jpg&hash=cbaf01da88317e8c29787b8de6f0cdce14768e33) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Ballistic%20Sheets/KnightRMEF300grLehigh.jpg.html)

And the 300 grain Deep Curl

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FBallistic%2520Sheets%2F300GD110T7-2f.jpg&hash=555ea271f9356a6471bb890f4a6c685e649dc844) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Ballistic%20Sheets/300GD110T7-2f.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Bowtech7 on December 16, 2013, 03:18:49 PM: Thanks for all the information if I have anymore question I will be sure and let you know
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Sabotloader on December 16, 2013, 04:15:24 PM: Quote from: Bowtech7 on December 16, 2013, 03:18:49 PM
Thanks for all the information if I have anymore question I will be sure and let you know

Good enough...
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: BOOM!! on December 16, 2013, 04:20:45 PM: Bowtech7

I will second the Lehigh .458-305's. I was looking for a muzzy bullet that would give good expansion and an exit wound for a good blood trail. I talked to Sabotloader and he gave me the same advice. We used them this year and had excellent results. My son took a 12 yard brisket shot at a 5 point elk and took the heart out. I have heard that some loads give poor results on elk brisket shots including deflection and non penetration. His buck went only 5 yards on a behind the shoulder double lung and out the lower neck exit wound. I took a 180 yard shot at my white tail buck and the shot devastated the liver. I'm sold! By the way we were using the Deep Curls the last 2 seasons, great mushrooming but no exit wound, hence no blood trail. While it is true that any bullet that double lungs, hits the heart or liver will give you a kill shot, very few will after full expansion give you the exit wound which is essential for blood tracking.
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: oneshot12 on December 16, 2013, 05:28:24 PM: :tup: and so will I they work pretty good for sure Boom :twocents: sabot loader sent me so .500x350 grain. for my 54 cal boy did they do the trick took the elk down right now. no tracking needed . got to hand it to him sure knows his stuff he was also informing me about some other bullets to give a try as well great guy to chat with
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: BOHNTR on December 16, 2013, 09:21:15 PM: Thanks for posting the charts Sabot, I have been looking for just that ! :tup:
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: BowBender87 on December 16, 2013, 09:26:02 PM: Jake!! Giving up the bow for elk?!?! :yike: you have to stick with it man!!!
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Bowtech7 on December 17, 2013, 08:38:36 AM: Not really giving it up might go back and forth every other year type thing but I do like to be able to reach out and touch something if need be. As for everyone else thanks for all the great information
Title: Re: Muzzy Questions
Post by: Chukarhead on December 18, 2013, 08:55:35 AM: I haven't tried the Lehigh bullets (yet), but can vouch for the Barnes TMZ and T-EZ bullets. Our little group killed three more elk this fall with those bullets. I recovered my third bullet in a row, petaled out and tangled in the far hid. The only minor issue that I see with them is that they really seem to tumble and veer once inside the animal. We've had bullets bounce around in the cavity to the point where a perfect broadside heart/lung shot exited high and almost back to the ham. Of course, that has the advantage of killing things really dead really fast, but the downside is that we've gone through the diaphram on a couple of otherwise perfectly clean shots.