Post by: kerrdog on December 27, 2013, 10:05:55 AM
Post by: erk444 on December 27, 2013, 11:11:04 AM
Post by: Chukarhead on December 27, 2013, 01:24:22 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 27, 2013, 01:45:46 PM
The bull dropped where he stood.
You poor thing :chuckle:
Doesn't sound terribly urgent, congrats on the bull. Good luck figuring it out.
Post by: kerrdog on December 28, 2013, 02:08:49 PM
Post by: sagewalker on December 29, 2013, 06:06:52 PM
Post by: MountainDevil54 on December 29, 2013, 07:00:53 PM
Post by: slaymaker3 on December 29, 2013, 07:06:57 PM
135 pyro select 110 yards on a cow double lung. Performed perfectly
Post by: kerrdog on December 30, 2013, 07:40:50 AM
Post by: BOOM!! on December 30, 2013, 10:39:58 AM
This is the bullet I recovered from my first bull early season. It was a 150 yard downhill shot (I ranged it afterward). The bull dropped where he stood, but there was no expansion of the bullet. Just a dent near the tip. The polymer tip was still there, just smashed in a bit.
I was using 120 grains of Triple 7 3f. I'm glad to hear that Barnes usually do expand, because I stocked up on them during the ammo scare. I was starting to question whether the solid copper/brass bullets expand reliably in the real world. Last year we pulled some unexpanded bloodlines out of a cow.
I'm thinking that maybe I hit a rib at an angle on the way in. It probably made the bullet tumble a little so it wasn't able to open up. I'm glad to hear that they will expand on something besides ballistic gelatin and lab conditions.
Hi kerrdog, this is confusing for me too. You hit a bull at 150 yards probably hitting a rib on entry, the bullet didn't expand and the bull dropped right where he stood. That tells me one of two things happened, the bullet hit the spine or the bullet hit a vital and the bull not being spooked bleed out right where he stood? Since you had the same problem with the bloodlines not expanding my guess would be that the triple7 is losing its potency because of all that wetside moisture in the air. I have read posts on other muzzleload forums that some people will not use triple7 because it loses its pop. If you think about it, those bloodlines should have penciled through since they didn't open up yet you found them inside.
Post by: kerrdog on December 30, 2013, 01:14:22 PM
Anyway, when we were gutting him I made a half attempt to see what had been hit. One of his lungs was collapsed, but his heart looked great. I'm guessing I nailed a major artery right next to the heart. He was very relaxed and did not know what happened.
Post by: h20hunter on December 30, 2013, 01:23:40 PM
Post by: Chukarhead on January 04, 2014, 09:08:51 PM
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dVhUCjGPYik/Usjmp7x1HUI/AAAAAAAAFFE/WZxulcxJ7_8/w945-h630-no/IMG_4106.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6Z-6fv_-fjHyiVtMI4B8EH_Sa951aPzaDIp6cytrQaM=w380-h253-p-no)
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 04, 2014, 09:14:30 PM
Post by: erk444 on January 04, 2014, 09:41:25 PM
Here are three data points... more critters have died in the past few years, but we haven't recovered the bullets (none from deer). These three were from my elk. The one that looks a little crumpled and lopsided was from a hard-away angle shot on a bull. The bullet glanced off a rib. All three bullets did an amazing amount of damage. 130 gr. of T7 FFFPP. Hard-away bull at 70 yd, and broadside cows at 75 and 100 yards. Knight Bighorn.Hey Chukarhead, where did you hit the broadside cows? I ask because I have shot 2 cows broadside. One at 70 and one at 100 and both shots passed through. Both were lung hits. I only use 90gr of ff through my bighorn. Was curious why yours stayed in and mine didn't, even with less powder?
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dVhUCjGPYik/Usjmp7x1HUI/AAAAAAAAFFE/WZxulcxJ7_8/w945-h630-no/IMG_4106.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6Z-6fv_-fjHyiVtMI4B8EH_Sa951aPzaDIp6cytrQaM=w380-h253-p-no)
Post by: Chukarhead on January 04, 2014, 10:46:39 PM
Hey Chukarhead, where did you hit the broadside cows? I ask because I have shot 2 cows broadside. One at 70 and one at 100 and both shots passed through. Both were lung hits. I only use 90gr of ff through my bighorn. Was curious why yours stayed in and mine didn't, even with less powder?
The 2011 cow was pretty far back... a little embarrassing, really. Behind the ribs, but she only went about 50 yards and piled up. The '13 cow was hit about 2" above the heart, double-lung. Both bullets were caught in the far side hide. The bullet from the bull actually passed through, but my buddies found it on the spur two weeks later while hunting. From their description, it went about 25-50 yards past the bull before coming to rest. Two other broadside shots inside of 50 yards from other members of our group have been pass-throughs. One thing we've noticed over the years is that the bullets don't tend to travel very straight once inside of an animal. They veer or bounce around quite a bit, which makes sense when you look at the final shape of the bullets. We've had 90 degree broadside, behind-the-shoulder shots perforate the diaphragm. On the upside, animals don't go far. On the downside, you're never sure where that bullet is going to stop.
Edit: now that I think some more about it, yours might have passed through because they didn't expand, maintained more energy, and zipped through. If I recall correctly (this is a stretch), Barnes says that the bullets require about 1300 fps to expand reliably, and you may not be getting that with 90gr of FFP at those ranges. We pack 120-130 gr. for deer and elk just to make sure that we reliably hit the higher velocities recommended. Knight's recommended loads with the Barnes bullets (Red Hots) tend to be 150 grains in pellet form, which are pretty zippy.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on January 04, 2014, 10:57:45 PM
Post by: erk444 on January 05, 2014, 08:49:43 AM
Dang, I never thought about that. I have recovered 2 from other elk that were perfect though. One was 72 yards quartering to me, and the other was about 90 yards quartering away. I might try to bump up my powder though cause its a good point. I have noticed the bullet exiting in a strange place too. My deer was almost perfect broadside this year. I hit him a little far back, and the bullet came out near his back leg :yike: I just shrugged it off as him being more quartered than I thought, but now you got me thinking.Hey Chukarhead, where did you hit the broadside cows? I ask because I have shot 2 cows broadside. One at 70 and one at 100 and both shots passed through. Both were lung hits. I only use 90gr of ff through my bighorn. Was curious why yours stayed in and mine didn't, even with less powder?
The 2011 cow was pretty far back... a little embarrassing, really. Behind the ribs, but she only went about 50 yards and piled up. The '13 cow was hit about 2" above the heart, double-lung. Both bullets were caught in the far side hide. The bullet from the bull actually passed through, but my buddies found it on the spur two weeks later while hunting. From their description, it went about 25-50 yards past the bull before coming to rest. Two other broadside shots inside of 50 yards from other members of our group have been pass-throughs. One thing we've noticed over the years is that the bullets don't tend to travel very straight once inside of an animal. They veer or bounce around quite a bit, which makes sense when you look at the final shape of the bullets. We've had 90 degree broadside, behind-the-shoulder shots perforate the diaphragm. On the upside, animals don't go far. On the downside, you're never sure where that bullet is going to stop.
Edit: now that I think some more about it, yours might have passed through because they didn't expand, maintained more energy, and zipped through. If I recall correctly (this is a stretch), Barnes says that the bullets require about 1300 fps to expand reliably, and you may not be getting that with 90gr of FFP at those ranges. We pack 120-130 gr. for deer and elk just to make sure that we reliably hit the higher velocities recommended. Knight's recommended loads with the Barnes bullets (Red Hots) tend to be 150 grains in pellet form, which are pretty zippy.
Post by: buckreaper on February 03, 2014, 09:13:16 PM
Post by: kerrdog on February 03, 2014, 09:59:47 PM
Post by: ML_Hunter on February 03, 2014, 10:10:51 PM
Maybe your powder was wet?
The Polymer tip is there to assist in the expansion. Which is the reason that Barns, Nosler, and almost every bullet manufacture offers bullets with polymer tips. You can try switching over to a hollow point, but I don't know if you will see that much of a difference. :twocents: