Post by: Antlershed on November 14, 2008, 11:36:48 AM
Post by: Sagedawg on November 14, 2008, 11:58:21 AM
Sage
Post by: addicted on November 14, 2008, 12:05:38 PM
just like anything else thise is argueable because a 243 doesnt meet the legal requirements for a gams buck but it would probably be a great caliber for them. :dunno:
Post by: Rick on November 14, 2008, 12:11:10 PM
The first Elk I ever killed was with my 30-30 when I was 10. The 150gr load I was using has just over 1000ft-lbs of energy at 100 yds. I guess nobody told Mr. Spike Elk because he feel over dead after I shot him.
I think people read too much into energy. You put the bullet into the vitals and the animal is gonna die.
My uncle killed a ton of Elk with a 25-06 and 120gr bullets. Not many "experts" recommend a 25-06 for Elk,but the proof was in my Uncles freezer every year.
Post by: addicted on November 14, 2008, 12:14:45 PM
I think people read too much into energy. You put the bullet into the vitals and the animal is gonna die.
[/quote
:yeah:
Post by: demontang on November 14, 2008, 02:54:27 PM
http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/hits_calculator.php (http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/hits_calculator.php)
Post by: KillBilly on November 14, 2008, 03:28:53 PM
Is there a general rule of thumb as far as how many ft-lbs you want to take an animal down? Obviously you will want more for a moose than you need for a deer, and Elk would probably fall in the middle somewhere. Also, which is more important between the energy it is carrying and how fast its traveling, or how do they work together? I've been reading so many ballistic tables my head is about to explode.it is a combination of bullet weight and speed, example: 180 gr. bullet @ 3000 fps = 3597 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle.
Post by: Antlershed on November 14, 2008, 03:54:45 PM
Horandy has a program to give you an idea what is needed. I think bullet construction has a big part to do with it though.That thing said .270 shooting a 140gr bullet is suitable for Moose at 100 yards. :dunno: I realize shot placement matters, but I don't think I would be chasing Moose with a .270.
http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/hits_calculator.php (http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/hits_calculator.php)
What I'm trying to do is decide on a caliber (I thought I had it figured out, but I keep searching). It is fairly realistic that I will draw Elk and Deer permits within the next couple of years, and with a lot of luck Moose as well. I don't know that buying two rifles is in the budget over the next two years (I don't really plan on buying cheap rifles). If it was, I would buy a .25/06 or a .270 now and if I drew Moose, I would buy a BIG gun. I was starting to look at the .300win-mag as an all purpose gun, but I don't know that it packs the punch for that OIL Moose tag. I also don't want to buy a super MAG caliber for one hunt. :dunno:The only rifle I currently own is a .243 and I have been borrowing my Grandpa's .270, but he wants to start hunting with us again next year, so I gotta give it back.
Post by: Sagedawg on November 14, 2008, 04:01:52 PM
Sage
Post by: thinkingman on November 14, 2008, 04:11:52 PM
A solid bullet at moderate speed is deadlier on heavy animals than a superfast explosive bullet.
$.02
Post by: demontang on November 14, 2008, 04:37:40 PM
Post by: KillBilly on November 14, 2008, 04:40:40 PM
cartridge and ballistics will only get you to the skin, the construction of the bullet is critical once you get there.
A solid bullet at moderate speed is deadlier on heavy animals than a superfast explosive bullet.
$.02
Right on thinkingman...Stopping power is related to the physical properties of the bullet and the effects it has on its target. Stopping is usually caused not by the force of the bullet but by the damaging effects of the bullet which are typically a loss of blood, and with it, blood pressure. More immediate effects can result when a bullet damages the central nervous system such as the spine or brain.
Post by: Antlershed on November 14, 2008, 04:45:39 PM
Post by: high country on November 14, 2008, 04:46:54 PM
Post by: Huntbear on November 14, 2008, 04:47:24 PM
I am one of those that love the .338 win mag. You can hunt anything and everything, except small game, and you have a .243 for that.
The Federal loads with 210 gr. Partitions will put down any elk or moose or bear. I would even use it for deer, if I needed to. :twocents:
Post by: Huntbear on November 14, 2008, 04:49:15 PM
Which type of bullets generally hold together the best?
I am a dyed in the wool Partition fan. They are time proven and perform exceptionally even if you hit a major bone.
Post by: demontang on November 14, 2008, 06:38:31 PM
Post by: jdb on November 14, 2008, 07:08:05 PM
Post by: Rick on November 14, 2008, 07:43:34 PM
Horandy has a program to give you an idea what is needed. I think bullet construction has a big part to do with it though.That thing said .270 shooting a 140gr bullet is suitable for Moose at 100 yards. :dunno: I realize shot placement matters, but I don't think I would be chasing Moose with a .270.
http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/hits_calculator.php (http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/hits_calculator.php)
Why not the .270 for Moose? I have a .270 and with the proper bullet,I wouldn't feel handicapped using it on a Moose.
In Sweden thousands of Moose are killed with the 6.5x55 Swedish. The 6.5x55 is a step below the .270 as far as energy goes.
Post by: norsepeak on November 15, 2008, 07:24:25 PM
Post by: Intruder on November 17, 2008, 10:22:45 AM
I think people think WAY to much about ft lbs. I really think its a bs number. if you study balistic tables and compare wildly diffrent rounds you'll soon see what I mean. a 22-250 with a 55 grain bullet has about 1200 ft-lbs of energy at 100 yards, a 45-70 with a 405 grain bullet has about 1200 ft-lbs of energy at 100 yards. Thats about the same load the masses used to wipe out the american buffalo herd, if it were available do you really think they would have used a 22-250 instead? also imagine if you will that your about too face down a bear charge, you have your choice of either of these are you really goning to pick a 22-250? now I am not trying to down grade a 22-250 its a great varmit/predator rifle. I am just trying to illustrate a point that ft-lbs of energy arent what thier cracked up to be. JB
This is very true. There is a ton of misinformation out there regarding energy and a relation to killing capacity or "knock down power" etc. It is a factor that in and of itself doesn't mean much out of context. Even in context there are far more important factors to consider.... such as bullet construction as many have talked about already in this topic. If you ever get real bored there's quite a bit of "scientific" data on terminal ballistics out there. What a lot of it ends up pointing out is that the old measures that people have used for years don't hold water or are actually not objectively measureable.
One objective measure that I've found to be more accurate in relating to killing capacity is momentum. A number of balistic calculators will give you that measure. It seems to be a better indication of what a particular caliber is capable of doing. It's not the end all but it is more meaningful.
Bottom line.... "in general" the most used modern cartridges today(30-06 based cartridges as well as 7mag, 300 mag, etc) are perfectly capable of cleaning killing all N. American game out to 300 yards (except maybe the largest of the bears) when using a good quality bullet of at least 130 grains and with a good shot placement. The arguments that X cal is better than Y cal is largely based on personal bias, misunderstanding of terminal ballistics, or both. They're fun discussions to have but are usually academic when talking about taking game at the ranges where 90% of animals are killed.
Post by: 270Shooter on November 17, 2008, 03:49:03 PM
Post by: KillBilly on November 17, 2008, 04:10:31 PM
Stopping power is related to the physical properties of the bullet and the effects it has on its target. Stopping is usually caused not by the force of the bullet but by the damaging effects of the bullet which are typically a loss of blood, and with it, blood pressure. More immediate effects can result when a bullet damages the central nervous system such as the spine or brain.