Post by: justaguy on February 09, 2014, 09:52:31 AM
I'd like to get some advise from folks with more experience hunting bears. I'm looking at picking up a new rifle for bear and am stuck between a 308 and a 300 wm. I know a 06 would be the perfect compromise, but it's not offered in the rifle that I'm lusting over (Tikka T3). I'm on the wetside hunting clearcuts, and a 400 yd is probabaly on the longest shot I'd be taking and hopefully the shot would be much shorter than that. Considering the cost of ammo, wear and tear on the shoulder, and pleasure of shooting, I'm leaning toward the 308 with the right bullet. On the flipside, I don't want to show up undergunned.
Any thoughts?
Post by: washelkhntr on February 09, 2014, 09:54:47 AM
:dunno:
Post by: Bob33 on February 09, 2014, 09:55:37 AM
Post by: Eli346 on February 09, 2014, 10:00:43 AM
Post by: kramer on February 09, 2014, 10:11:49 AM
Post by: troyspinetar on February 09, 2014, 11:29:18 AM
Since when can't you get a T3 chambered in 30-06???
:dunno:
Yeah...I know a guy who got a Tikka in 30-06.
Post by: jasnt on February 09, 2014, 12:04:34 PM
Post by: snowpack on February 09, 2014, 12:15:36 PM
Post by: Bmcox86 on February 09, 2014, 12:27:23 PM
Post by: The scout on February 09, 2014, 12:28:26 PM
Post by: justaguy on February 09, 2014, 12:54:03 PM
When I don't take the time to shoot as much as I should, I can get into the habit of flinching before the shot if teh rifle's got much kick. I've never had that problem with a 308 and would rather put the shot on target than miss with more velocity/energy. The main thing that I was concerned with is putting the critter down quickly.
Post by: Bullkllr on February 09, 2014, 01:21:15 PM
I guess I should have been more specific that the Tikka models that I'm looking at don't come in a 30.06. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers there.
When I don't take the time to shoot as much as I should, I can get into the habit of flinching before the shot if teh rifle's got much kick. I've never had that problem with a 308 and would rather put the shot on target than miss with more velocity/energy. The main thing that I was concerned with is putting the critter down quickly.
You may have answered your own question regarding cartridge right there.
Just out of curiosity, which model is offered in 308 and 300wm but not '06? With the 308's a short and 300's a long,seems a bit odd.
Post by: justaguy on February 09, 2014, 01:36:01 PM
Post by: jackelope on February 09, 2014, 01:54:41 PM
Post by: arrowflinger on February 09, 2014, 02:12:07 PM
Post by: mountainman on February 09, 2014, 07:21:44 PM
Post by: Wea300mag on February 09, 2014, 07:27:38 PM
Post by: Bob33 on February 09, 2014, 07:34:24 PM
What he said.
Post by: bobcat on February 09, 2014, 07:56:58 PM
Post by: Killmore on February 10, 2014, 11:40:19 AM
Post by: huntnphool on February 10, 2014, 12:04:46 PM
Post by: Curly on February 10, 2014, 12:19:29 PM
So, those issues should come into play in the decision making too. I think it just depends on what you want. The .300WM probably won't have too much felt recoil in the fairly heavy Tactical rifle compared to T3 lite, but the .308 will definitely have even less kick than the magnum.
I guess I'd lean toward the .308 in your situation, especially if you get a good rangefinder and get a scope that allows you to dial in the holdover. A bear won't know the difference between being hit with the magnum or .308 win.
Post by: bearpaw on February 10, 2014, 12:48:57 PM
Hi all,
I'd like to get some advise from folks with more experience hunting bears. I'm looking at picking up a new rifle for bear and am stuck between a 308 and a 300 wm. I know a 06 would be the perfect compromise, but it's not offered in the rifle that I'm lusting over (Tikka T3). I'm on the wetside hunting clearcuts, and a 400 yd is probabaly on the longest shot I'd be taking and hopefully the shot would be much shorter than that. Considering the cost of ammo, wear and tear on the shoulder, and pleasure of shooting, I'm leaning toward the 308 with the right bullet. On the flipside, I don't want to show up undergunned.
Any thoughts?
I have seen hundreds of bear shot with every conceivable caliber at all types of yardages. I would avoid the 308 if you plan on shooting farther than 200 yards. I would recommend the 300 WM as one of the best bear calibers available for making distant shots and being able to purchase affordable ammo. Additionally, unless a person is an excellent marksman I discourage shooting at bear more than 300 yards as most hunters are not excellent marksman and bear require a very solid hit or you won't be recovering your bear. Good luck, I hope you find what you are looking for and it works well for you. :tup:
Post by: boneaddict on February 10, 2014, 12:52:49 PM
I have to disagree with Bob33 on this one. I have seen some bear take some serious punishment and they kept on ticking. Compared to a "prey animal", I think they are way harder to anchor unless a solid perfect hit has been delivered. (my two nickels)
Post by: coachcw on February 10, 2014, 01:02:24 PM
Post by: Curly on February 10, 2014, 01:05:33 PM
When I don't take the time to shoot as much as I should, I can get into the habit of flinching before the shot if teh rifle's got much kick. I've never had that problem with a 308 and would rather put the shot on target than miss with more velocity/energy. The main thing that I was concerned with is putting the critter down quickly.
You guys that are telling justaguy to go with the 300WM (my favorite cartridge BTW), did you read what he wrote above (in bold)?
If a guy flinches with a 300WM, then he is likely to miss or make a bad hit. If a low recoiling rifle (.308) is used and he doesn't flinch, wouldn't that be better? :dunno:
Post by: Mike450r on February 10, 2014, 01:08:10 PM
I don't really consider them tougher but I do say the margin for a bad shot or non fatal shot is higher and I definitely put emphasis on their desire to survive and get as far away from danger as fast as possible.
Post by: Bob33 on February 10, 2014, 01:22:44 PM
Hey Curly - why are you recommending a 300WM? Didn't you read what he said about being recoil sensitive? ;)When I don't take the time to shoot as much as I should, I can get into the habit of flinching before the shot if teh rifle's got much kick. I've never had that problem with a 308 and would rather put the shot on target than miss with more velocity/energy. The main thing that I was concerned with is putting the critter down quickly.
You guys that are telling justaguy to go with the 300WM (my favorite cartridge BTW), did you read what he wrote above (in bold)?
If a guy flinches with a 300WM, then he is likely to miss or make a bad hit. If a low recoiling rifle (.308) is used and he doesn't flinch, wouldn't that be better? :dunno:
Post by: jackelope on February 10, 2014, 01:42:41 PM
How does a .308 shoot 180 grain bullets? Is that a consideration? Seems I've seen lots of threads on here in the past about how bears don't bleed or are hard to track. I want to sling as much lead into one as possible. I'd work through the flinch and shoot the .300 win mag and some 180 accubonds.
Post by: D-Rock425 on February 10, 2014, 01:55:12 PM
A fatal shot is a fatal shot but bears have a little something in them that keeps them going and going there faster than a deer or even an elk. If fatally hit they will die but the way they will often jump, spin, bite at the impact point and then get the hell out of there is something to see. And where they go after that can be a mystery if all that fat keeps them from making a good blood trail.I will agree to this. I've killed a number of bears with a 7mm-08 shooting 140 grain bullets. I've also lost one a few years back with what I thought was a chip shot and done deal. Shot placement is everything. If you can shoot the 308 better that's the one to get.
I don't really consider them tougher but I do say the margin for a bad shot or non fatal shot is higher and I definitely put emphasis on their desire to survive and get as far away from danger as fast as possible.
Post by: Curly on February 10, 2014, 02:09:02 PM
Hey Curly - why are you recommending a 300WM? Didn't you read what he said about being recoil sensitive? ;)When I don't take the time to shoot as much as I should, I can get into the habit of flinching before the shot if teh rifle's got much kick. I've never had that problem with a 308 and would rather put the shot on target than miss with more velocity/energy. The main thing that I was concerned with is putting the critter down quickly.
You guys that are telling justaguy to go with the 300WM (my favorite cartridge BTW), did you read what he wrote above (in bold)?
If a guy flinches with a 300WM, then he is likely to miss or make a bad hit. If a low recoiling rifle (.308) is used and he doesn't flinch, wouldn't that be better? :dunno:
Yeah, I recommended a .308. If a guy thinks he may flinch with a magnum, it seems that a .308 would be a better option. Although, like I did try to point out, that T3 tactical rifle is fairly heavy which could help with felt recoil, so maybe he'd be okay with the magnum? :dunno:
Bearpaw has obviously seen lots of bears killed, so it seems like his opinion should have a lot of weight to it. But I just question the difference between a .308 win and a .300 win mag being so great that there is no question but to go with the .300? (And if like Bearpaw says to limit shots to 300 yards, that seems to then help the argument toward using a .308 win).
Ralph Flowers (professional bear hunter in Grays Harbor area) killed thousands of black bears and the majority were killed with a .270 Win. So, I just don't see the need for the magnum.............. :dunno:
More discussion would sure be great. I'm no expert by any means.
Post by: Biggerhammer on February 10, 2014, 04:41:13 PM
Post by: C-Money on February 10, 2014, 05:18:41 PM
Post by: h20hunter on February 10, 2014, 05:40:01 PM
Post by: hillbilli on February 10, 2014, 06:02:21 PM
Post by: Skillet on February 10, 2014, 06:24:47 PM
.300 Winnie and 165gr Accubonds for me, I like a little more bullet speed to weight ratio with the magnums. It's all in the bullet. :tup:FPS for your pet load?
Post by: lewy on February 10, 2014, 06:49:31 PM
Post by: jackmaster on February 10, 2014, 07:02:22 PM
Post by: Bofire on February 10, 2014, 07:19:13 PM
I would not hesitate to use my 243.
The situation has to be perfect, good rest, lots of time, before I will shoot further than 300 yards at any game animal or even coyotes.
Ralph Flowers first bear was taken with a 22lr single shot.
Carl
Post by: Bullkllr on February 10, 2014, 07:23:18 PM
Hi all,
I'd like to get some advise from folks with more experience hunting bears. I'm looking at picking up a new rifle for bear and am stuck between a 308 and a 300 wm. I know a 06 would be the perfect compromise, but it's not offered in the rifle that I'm lusting over (Tikka T3). I'm on the wetside hunting clearcuts, and a 400 yd is probabaly on the longest shot I'd be taking and hopefully the shot would be much shorter than that. Considering the cost of ammo, wear and tear on the shoulder, and pleasure of shooting, I'm leaning toward the 308 with the right bullet. On the flipside, I don't want to show up undergunned.
Any thoughts?
I think you have an awful lot of varying opinions to sift through. Problem is most of them make sense.
Only part I'm sticking on is the flinch you described. The 300 is obviously more well-rounded for bear in more situations, but has a lot more recoil. That model of gun you're considering may moderate it some (other could speak to this better). Choice boils down to whether you can (or can learn to) shoot the 300 accurately. If not, the 308 is the only choice. Then you may have a lower limit on range and situations to take an ethical shot, but it may not matter if you have a lot of discipline before squeezing the shot anyway,
Any way you could get some range time with a 300 before your purchase? Could tell you a lot.
Post by: bankwalker on February 10, 2014, 07:24:48 PM
I prefer the 7mm Mag fired from my Tikka T-3 Superlite , but the 30-06 will work great too.
That's what I'm hunting with. It sure is a wonderful shooting rifle! Even with the extra lightness the recoil is very mild. I will admit though after the last 2 seasons shooting/hunting with a heavy weatherby vanguard. I'm not a very good shot with the super light tikka yet. Missed a few longer range shots at bear this season :bash:
My vote would be a tikka lite, in 300wm or 7mm. Looking at your location. You have an opportunity to hunt some very good bear areas with the chance at some longer range shots over 400 yards. I would not limit myself.
I hunted with a short barrel 308 the last couple season bear hunting. And had many chances at bear but never felt comfortable with the ranges. So Last october I bought my tikka super light 7mm topped it with a scope capable of long range shots. Now I have the option when the shot presents itself.
Now I'm practicing all year for those long shots to be ready. (I had no trigger time with this setup last season and it showed!!)
Post by: Houndhunter on February 10, 2014, 07:25:49 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on February 10, 2014, 07:26:39 PM
.300 Winnie and 165gr Accubonds for me, I like a little more bullet speed to weight ratio with the magnums. It's all in the bullet. :tup:FPS for your pet load?
3340 Fast and flat! :tup: RL-22 and a Federal 215M.
Post by: hunter399 on February 10, 2014, 07:45:10 PM
Post by: 700xcr on February 10, 2014, 07:49:14 PM
Post by: Skillet on February 10, 2014, 08:34:14 PM
.300 Winnie and 165gr Accubonds for me, I like a little more bullet speed to weight ratio with the magnums. It's all in the bullet. :tup:FPS for your pet load?
3340 Fast and flat! :tup: RL-22 and a Federal 215M.
That's more laser than bullet. Good black bear medicine.
And.. "Un-hijack"
Post by: skagitsteel on February 10, 2014, 10:38:17 PM
Post by: bearpaw on February 10, 2014, 10:53:32 PM
I always get a chuckle out of these threads, if you haven't killed a bear then your in for quite a trip. Bears are very tough critters and dont bleed for squat, if you dont break a bear down and you gotta track one through brush the recovery is gonna be difficult, unless your a Damn fine shot and and good at feild judging a bear then you need to be a hell o alot closer than 400 yards, bear need to be hit hard on the first shot, and bear are great actors to, you will find that out... many people wound bear and never have the sack to own up to it, find a good heavy round with good bone crushing knock down power
:yeah: I agree and I rate a mature bear tougher to kill than deer or elk. We have gotten many bear that have been hit pretty hard in the past and they healed up and were doing fine.
Post by: 700xcr on February 11, 2014, 05:54:53 AM
Post by: jackmaster on February 11, 2014, 06:47:30 AM
What bullet do you recommend? A bonded (Accubond or Partition) or standard cup and core bullet (standard)? Or even a bullet like the Cutting Edge bullet that the front pedestals break off and create a star type wound channel?a good 180 gr with good expantion is a good round, its the shot placement, a high shoulder shot is a good shot but a bear shoulders is real deceiving, a quarting away about 3 ribs back right through to the opposite shoulder where it hits him in the shoulder socket from the inside is your best bet, the important thing is, especially in late fall when a bear is fattened up, the bullet hole closes off alot quicker and blood is tougher to find, i havent killed a spring bear, thats when they are their leanest, but are still a tough critter to put on the deck unless hit right, i would bet there are more wounded bear every year than deer or elk, there just arent as many people huntn bear so you dont hear about it as much, if you shoot a bear and he goes right down get ready with a follow up shot, bear are sneaky buggers
Post by: brushhunter on February 11, 2014, 07:38:10 AM
Post by: JohnVH on February 11, 2014, 08:09:19 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on February 11, 2014, 12:51:52 PM
whichever you can shoot accurately.that would be the short answer if he owned both guns. I would say since he is recoil sensitive the 308 would be a better choice for him.
Post by: troyspinetar on February 11, 2014, 04:45:18 PM
I always get a chuckle out of these threads, if you haven't killed a bear then your in for quite a trip. Bears are very tough critters and dont bleed for squat, if you dont break a bear down and you gotta track one through brush the recovery is gonna be difficult, unless your a Damn fine shot and and good at feild judging a bear then you need to be a hell o alot closer than 400 yards, bear need to be hit hard on the first shot, and bear are great actors to, you will find that out... many people wound bear and never have the sack to own up to it, find a good heavy round with good bone crushing knock down powerI don't have much experience myself, but I agree with shot placement.
I have taken two bears the last two years. Both with 300 WinMag 180 grn Speer HC. The first bear I shot at 180 yds, made a mess through the kill zone.
The second bear I shot at 95 yds, the bear took off like a bat out of heck through some 12-15' reprod. I went and found no blood. After 20 mins I got enough courage to go in after it. Found the bear no more than 30 ft away. Still no sign of entry/exit hole or blood. I figured maybe I had scared it to death. After close inspection I found the entry but no exit.
Two different situations with the same rifle and same cartridge. :dunno:
Post by: MountainWalk on February 11, 2014, 05:21:46 PM
Post by: jasnt on February 11, 2014, 06:07:32 PM
My bear round is 300wm
185 gr. Berger @3050.
dropped my only bear from 60 yards right in its tracks. Was not a big bear and it was right in the boiler room on a relaxed unaware bear.
Post by: jackmaster on February 11, 2014, 06:44:43 PM
Post by: RadSav on February 11, 2014, 06:53:51 PM
I can only remember tracking one bear shot with the 308. That bear was shot twice in the spine at 20 yards. Once above the diaphragm and once just in from of the hip. Not sure a faster 30 cal would have made much of a difference there. Bear was recovered after I put a 45 slug in his boiler room at 20' while the dog held him down.
I've probably tracked more bear shot with the 338wm than any other gun cartridge. Though I don't remember ever tracking a bear shot through the heart/lungs. Most just don't handle the big magnums well. Especially under stress.
One of the biggest problems I had with guys shooting magnum cartridges is that they always wanted to take that 400 yard shot. Bear heart/lung is a dang small target. And it's not where most think it is. Guys with a bit smaller cartridge seemed more apt to take shot within their effective range (99% that's under 200 yards). No cartridge is a bear stopper with improper bullet placement. And they all are good bear medicine when bullets end up where they are suppose to. Bear are easier to kill than deer when bullets strike the right spot. And they are as tough as any elk when those bullets don't hit the right spot.
I'd happily shoot any black bear on earth with either of those cartridge choices. They are both good medicine as long as you shoot them both well.
Post by: trophyhunt on February 11, 2014, 07:19:00 PM
Post by: BKMFR on February 11, 2014, 07:34:39 PM
I believe Ralph Flowers shot a .270 more than anything else- great read.
Guide in Canada, one of my best friends uses a .338 and is happy, again what can you shoot the most accurate is what I would say you should focus on....
My cousin has literally killed countless boars in CA. with 243 with 85 grain bullets (shame on him for not using enough gun) yeah, right... trying telling him that.....
Anyways, its always fun debating....
Post by: tonymiller7 on February 12, 2014, 07:05:57 AM
Post by: justaguy on February 12, 2014, 09:54:28 AM
I really appreciate everyone's advise on this one. There are good points from everybody.
Right now, I'm strongly leaning toward the 308 with some type of 175-180 grn bullet and keeping the shots within a couple of hundred yards when/ if the time comes to let one fly. I can practice longer shots, so a 200yd will be a walk in the park. The ammo's cheaper and i can find it everywhere. Between work and other obligations, I think spending the time getting every shot on the money would be more efficient than overcoming a bad habit. That'll give me more time for boots on the ground, too.
From everyone's comments, it sounds like I'm at the start of a pretty cool adventure no matter what round I choose.
Post by: jackmaster on February 12, 2014, 09:59:41 AM
Post by: bobcat on February 12, 2014, 10:04:34 AM
A 150 will also hurt your shoulder a lot less than a 180.
Post by: mountainman on February 12, 2014, 11:40:46 AM
There was a reason I chose the 308 for my guide gun while in the business - just about anyone shoots it well and it flat out hammers bear! And elk and deer and coyotes and bobcats... :chuckle: It's performance throughout the available bullet choices is very consistant. So just about every bullet choice works well out of that velocity...except perhaps Barnes which really perform better at a bit higher velocity. Anything from 150 grain on up has busted shoulders and broken them down well. Though I rarely ever approved a hunter shooting more than 250 yards on a bear.Well said Rad! I too have seen and heard of not so accurate bullet placement by some with the bigger "hammering" to the shoulder guns!
I can only remember tracking one bear shot with the 308. That bear was shot twice in the spine at 20 yards. Once above the diaphragm and once just in from of the hip. Not sure a faster 30 cal would have made much of a difference there. Bear was recovered after I put a 45 slug in his boiler room at 20' while the dog held him down.
I've probably tracked more bear shot with the 338wm than any other gun cartridge. Though I don't remember ever tracking a bear shot through the heart/lungs. Most just don't handle the big magnums well. Especially under stress.
One of the biggest problems I had with guys shooting magnum cartridges is that they always wanted to take that 400 yard shot. Bear heart/lung is a dang small target. And it's not where most think it is. Guys with a bit smaller cartridge seemed more apt to take shot within their effective range (99% that's under 200 yards). No cartridge is a bear stopper with improper bullet placement. And they all are good bear medicine when bullets end up where they are suppose to. Bear are easier to kill than deer when bullets strike the right spot. And they are as tough as any elk when those bullets don't hit the right spot.
I'd happily shoot any black bear on earth with either of those cartridge choices. They are both good medicine as long as you shoot them both well.
Post by: Mxracer532 on February 12, 2014, 08:18:42 PM
Been on over 450 bear kills... shoot the gun that you can handle. 30 Cal is great, I used a 350 mag as a back up gun and never needed more, but then the only "touchy" issue I was ever in I used a 44 mag revolver to stop the bear, 1st shot in jaw, second in top of head- full out charge on one of the bigger bears we ever got, just a tad over 300 lbs... stopped him at 4 yds from me.... Fun!!!!
I believe Ralph Flowers shot a .270 more than anything else- great read.
Guide in Canada, one of my best friends uses a .338 and is happy, again what can you shoot the most accurate is what I would say you should focus on....
My cousin has literally killed countless boars in CA. with 243 with 85 grain bullets (shame on him for not using enough gun) yeah, right... trying telling him that.....
Anyways, its always fun debating....
If I draw my caliber of choice will be my SR-71 shooting Slick Trick 100gn. If thats just not panning out my Gordy Gritters Custom .243 will come out shooting 95gn Berger VLDs at 3136fps. Shame on me for being under gunned. haha
Post by: ghostshell on February 18, 2014, 11:20:53 PM
What bullets do you want to shoot?
How does a .308 shoot 180 grain bullets? Is that a consideration? Seems I've seen lots of threads on here in the past about how bears don't bleed or are hard to track. I want to sling as much lead into one as possible. I'd work through the flinch and shoot the .300 win mag and some 180 accubonds.
.308 shoots 180's..... 1/10 barrel will send them.
Post by: Damnimissed on February 19, 2014, 12:42:08 PM
Post by: deaner on February 19, 2014, 04:59:32 PM
What bullets do you want to shoot?
How does a .308 shoot 180 grain bullets? Is that a consideration? Seems I've seen lots of threads on here in the past about how bears don't bleed or are hard to track. I want to sling as much lead into one as possible. I'd work through the flinch and shoot the .300 win mag and some 180 accubonds.
my .308 likes 180 grain bullets :dunno:
never shot it outside of 100 yards tho, may not perform right beyond that, but for 100 yards or less, which is what i have it for, the 180s are the ticket.
1 : 12 twist, older gun
and its what i will be using for bear this year. hopefully in april rather than september
Post by: xXLojackXx on February 19, 2014, 06:43:55 PM
What bullets do you want to shoot?
How does a .308 shoot 180 grain bullets? Is that a consideration? Seems I've seen lots of threads on here in the past about how bears don't bleed or are hard to track. I want to sling as much lead into one as possible. I'd work through the flinch and shoot the .300 win mag and some 180 accubonds.
my .308 likes 180 grain bullets :dunno:
never shot it outside of 100 yards tho, may not perform right beyond that, but for 100 yards or less, which is what i have it for, the 180s are the ticket.
1 : 12 twist, older gun
and its what i will be using for bear this year. hopefully in april rather than september
1:12" barrel will like 155's and 168's all day. If you reload, about 44-45gr of Varget does well in almost every rifle I've shot.
Post by: deaner on February 19, 2014, 06:55:41 PM
What bullets do you want to shoot?
How does a .308 shoot 180 grain bullets? Is that a consideration? Seems I've seen lots of threads on here in the past about how bears don't bleed or are hard to track. I want to sling as much lead into one as possible. I'd work through the flinch and shoot the .300 win mag and some 180 accubonds.
my .308 likes 180 grain bullets :dunno:
never shot it outside of 100 yards tho, may not perform right beyond that, but for 100 yards or less, which is what i have it for, the 180s are the ticket.
1 : 12 twist, older gun
and its what i will be using for bear this year. hopefully in april rather than september
1:12" barrel will like 155's and 168's all day. If you reload, about 44-45gr of Varget does well in almost every rifle I've shot.
i dont reload, and really dont know jack about guns besides how to use them, but what i do know is that i tried multiple factory rounds, including the lower weights, but when i put the el cheapo 180 grain federals in my rifle my first group of 4 had 3 bullet holes overlapping to almost look like 1, and the fourth was less than 1/4inch away from other 3. this is from 50 yards with iron sights, no scope. and following groups, shot both off bench and off my knee leaning against a tree also yielded excellent results. regardless of what the gun SHOULD like, ill go with results and shoot the 180s. do appreciate the input though
Post by: hardrichard on March 04, 2014, 02:41:22 PM