Post by: MIKEXRAY on November 18, 2008, 08:03:49 AM
Post by: Intruder on November 18, 2008, 08:06:35 AM
Post by: Sagedawg on November 18, 2008, 08:41:07 AM
Sage
Post by: CP on November 18, 2008, 08:52:18 AM
That being said I think both bows and muzzleloaders have advanced too far to be called “primitive” weapons. A “primitive” weapon does not have modern optics, electronic devices of any kind, synthetic materials, or modern propellants.
Post by: HawkenBob on November 18, 2008, 10:51:30 AM
I chose ML for the up close and personal and the less hunters. Its the whole challenge.
For a guy in the midwest its about having another method besides a shot gun. I just think if a ML does have a scope and is capable and reliable enough it should have to be hunted in a general season.
I suspect many of these 209'rs with 2600 FPS+ easily out perform any slug gun. I know if I lived in Ill were my relatives live Id choose an Encore 50 over the slug barrel.
In washington, when hunting during rut, traditional methods should only apply. Not that you cant use an inline. But I like our laws regarding the ML configs. If it changed, ML season would be even more of a zoo and not much of a reason would exsist to even warrent it IMO.
Post by: .54 THUNDERHAWK on November 18, 2008, 12:26:42 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on November 18, 2008, 12:32:29 PM
Post by: M_ray on November 18, 2008, 01:08:09 PM
Post by: HawkenBob on November 18, 2008, 02:56:27 PM
I suspect as these guns get more and more lethal at longer distances, as well more reliable, they will start banning certain ones or put weight restrictions on the projectiles. a 160 grn 30-06 bullet can fly 2500 yards at a 5 degree angle...
Post by: Little Fish on November 19, 2008, 09:24:06 AM
Post by: CP on November 24, 2008, 08:52:10 AM
I ran across this while looking for a single shot .444 Marlin, seems they are in such demand that they are out of stock nation wide. (wasn’t the .444 Marlin developed in the mid 1960s?)
So, it’s all relative.
Post by: rasbo on November 24, 2008, 05:27:07 PM
Post by: MeatDown on November 25, 2008, 10:36:32 AM
Gotta love a 32 yard shot... once the smoke clears..
Shawn
Post by: Curly on November 25, 2008, 10:50:42 AM
Post by: Longbowz on November 25, 2008, 11:55:55 AM
Whether your gun is a traditional or an inline the ballistics are same. You can't shoot further based on the guns design.
209 primers and enclosed ignitions don't change anything other then allowing us here in Washington have access to the 95 % of the muzzleloaders made that we presently can't use here because of the goofy regulations. Besides whats wrong with a more reliable ignition? It doesn't change the hunt.
For heavens sake why can't we use a scope on a muzzleloader in this state? It doesn't make for a longer shot, It just helps the guys over 50 who have trouble with iron sights make a more sure ethical kill within the range of a muzzleloader. It doesn't make it shoot farther. Those guys on TV making 200 yard plus shots few in number. Besides they only show you the successful shots. TV is business so what you see isn't always as it was during the hunt. If a guy is going to make a 200 yard shot the design of the gun has little to do with it - I've seen it.
This is simply my opinion and if someone disagrees that's OK. But too often we hear how some change in the equipment will ruin the season, but no one ever backs it up with proven facts. It usually just 3rd person stories from their neighbors, brothers, cousin or some myth with no basis in fact. Usually it's just an attempt to keep people out of "my" hunt. Problem is if few people support an activity it very tends to never get better. Ever wonder why muzzleloader hunting never has seasons as good as modern rifles or archers? It's all a numbers game when the seasons are set. More participation means more clout with the game department plain and simple.
Have fun
Post by: Curly on November 25, 2008, 12:43:54 PM
1) Re: electronic ignition: This state will never allow electronic ignition.........and you are likely right that it won't last.
2) I agree about the ballistics between trad and inline being the same.
3) The 209 primer and enclosed ignitions make for more reliable ignition. In this state (especially the western part) it rains so hard at times while hunting that the powder will not ignite. I believe that is one arguement we can use to gain better seasons and more GMU's available to us because the success rates are lower with less reliable equipment.
4) Scopes on muzzleloaders would allow for better accuracy and longer shots to be taken, thus increasing the harvest during ML season. If the success rates go up for ML hunters, then the seasons will get even shorter. If a guy had a ballistic plex type reticle in a scoped ML, he could kill pretty effectively out to 200yds.
As far as guys over 50 w/ fading eyesight, they need to look into using peep sights and/or taking shorter shots.
5) I agree w/ you about the numbers game when seasons are set. There are way more archery hunters than ML and the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Basically, my fear is that the WDFW would likely reduce the amount of time for ML season or the number of units during ML season if they start allowing scopes, 209 primers, etc. I'd rather have more time and more units than change the equipment rules. :twocents:
Post by: HawkenBob on November 25, 2008, 12:58:47 PM
2) I agree about the ballistics between trad and inline being the same.
So you 2 dont believe there is a difference between my Hawken thats rated to 110 grns opposed to an inline that shoots 150? Weird. And the rifling is half of what a tradional is? There longer shooting and more accurate than a ball twist like a Hawken.
3) The 209 primer and enclosed ignitions make for more reliable ignition. In this state (especially the western part) it rains so hard at times while hunting that the powder will not ignite. I believe that is one arguement we can use to gain better seasons and more GMU's available to us because the success rates are lower with less reliable equipment.
Agreed, but I want to hunt during the rut. Thats one of the main reasons I choose ML. Right now Western ML gen season is early Oct. I like that. Rains havent hit hard yet and the Elk are responsive for the most part. Id hunt archery if I could but my wrist is bad and the bows really tear it up fast.
4) Scopes on muzzleloaders would allow for better accuracy and longer shots to be taken, thus increasing the harvest during ML season. If the success rates go up for ML hunters, then the seasons will get even shorter. If a guy had a ballistic plex type reticle in a scoped ML, he could kill pretty effectively out to 200yds.
As far as guys over 50 w/ fading eyesight, they need to look into using peep sights and/or taking shorter shots.
Totaly agree Curly. Im not sure why anyone would think a scope dosent increase accuracy and effective distance. Or bring out said rifle to its fullest potential.
"Basically, my fear is that the WDFW would likely reduce the amount of time for ML season or the number of units during ML season if they start allowing scopes, 209 primers, etc. I'd rather have more time and more units than change the equipment rules. :twocents:"
My fear would be that they would move it further from the rut. The game dept. would be laughing and saying "Sure shoot em farther cause you'll never get em to come to you. You'll need a scope."
Post by: Curly on November 25, 2008, 01:16:13 PM
My fear would be that they would move it further from the rut. The game dept. would be laughing and saying "Sure shoot em farther cause you'll never get em to come to you. You'll need a scope."
Exactly. And the elk season already starts right after the rut most years. This year elk season started on Oct. 4th which seemed to be at least a few days after the rut. Some years the opener will fall on the 1st and we can maybe find a few elk still rutting.
Post by: HawkenBob on November 25, 2008, 01:17:48 PM
1. If its raining that Oly Penn rain at 3 inches an hr its not worth going out with our Wa configured ml's.
2. Were already a small group fighting for more, or less depending on how ya look at it. We need to stay together so inline or not. The config laws keep us equal and have a quality time of season when we can hunt!
Post by: HawkenBob on November 25, 2008, 01:27:01 PM
Has anyone ever thought about Rut timing, opposed to season? What I mean is with our calender we have leap years. And every 5 we are actaully 5 off of what we were previously to were we were the years before that.
Elk dont have calenders but start rut with light fading earlier in the season. There set in rut by there eyes picking up light. I wounder, since some yrs there talking and some not if it has to do with our calender being off from theres? I mean our season is only 6 days. The same amount almost our calender is off every cycle.
I have really been watching this and even last year Bow hunters were complaining the Rut was gone quicker.
Two things I deducted from this is we are at another end and should be right back on track next year and the Elk are set like clocks. Its our leap year that screws with timing a bit.
Call me crazy, its just what I notice. If Im right Im on to something and may make me buy a bow for the off years. Lol
Anybody else ever thought about this? I actually think I learned of this from The man himself, Terible Tred Barta!!!
Post by: Curly on November 25, 2008, 01:30:22 PM
2) I agree about the ballistics between trad and inline being the same.
So you 2 dont believe there is a difference between my Hawken thats rated to 110 grns opposed to an inline that shoots 150? Weird. And the rifling is half of what a tradional is? There longer shooting and more accurate than a ball twist like a Hawken.
I concede that point. I forgot about the lower rated barrels. I have an inline and a trad ML but still use about 110 gr max in both because accuracy was decreasing when I increased the powder charge in my Austin & Halleck. I was just thinking about the rifling......if they have the same twist then they should both shoot about the same ballistically.
3) The 209 primer and enclosed ignitions make for more reliable ignition. In this state (especially the western part) it rains so hard at times while hunting that the powder will not ignite. I believe that is one arguement we can use to gain better seasons and more GMU's available to us because the success rates are lower with less reliable equipment.I hear you. I'd like to hunt archery too, but I have a shoulder problem that prevents me from shooting archery. The season really needs to start a week earlier.
Agreed, but I want to hunt during the rut. Thats one of the main reasons I choose ML. Right now Western ML gen season is early Oct. I like that. Rains havent hit hard yet and the Elk are responsive for the most part. Id hunt archery if I could but my wrist is bad and the bows really tear it up fast.
Totaly agree Curly. Im not sure why anyone would think a scope dosent increase accuracy and effective distance. Or bring out said rifle to its fullest potential.Yeah, it would make it a lot easier w/ a scope.
Well, Hawkenbob.......I think we agree on every point, now. I just hope some of these guys don't get their wish of ML regs changing in regards to equipment. ;)
Post by: Curly on November 25, 2008, 01:40:34 PM
Hey guys, speaking of "right after", changing it up a bit.
Has anyone ever thought about Rut timing, opposed to season? What I mean is with our calender we have leap years. And every 5 we are actaully 5 off of what we were previously to were we were the years before that.
Elk dont have calenders but start rut with light fading earlier in the season. There set in rut by there eyes picking up light. I wounder, since some yrs there talking and some not if it has to do with our calender being off from theres? I mean our season is only 6 days. The same amount almost our calender is off every cycle.
I have really been watching this and even last year Bow hunters were complaining the Rut was gone quicker.
Two things I deducted from this is we are at another end and should be right back on track next year and the Elk are set like clocks. Its our leap year that screws with timing a bit.
Call me crazy, its just what I notice. If Im right Im on to something and may make me buy a bow for the off years. Lol
Anybody else ever thought about this? I actually think I learned of this from The man himself, Terible Tred Barta!!!
I think you are right. Also, the WDFW starts the seasons on Saturdays. For ML season it starts the 1st Saturday in October. So it depends on the year as to how far into Oct. the first Saturday is. Next year the opening will likely be on the 3rd of Oct; 2010 will be the 2nd and we have to wait until 2011 for Oct. 1st to be the opener.
Post by: HawkenBob on November 25, 2008, 01:43:18 PM
Post by: Longbowz on November 25, 2008, 01:45:00 PM
If scope increases the shot distance, what is it based on? Where has the introduction of scopes had a negative effect on seasons in any other state? Just give me a few examples. That's the problem nobody has facts to back up assumptions. Recently a guy in Utah who was against the introduction of scopes stated in front of their game department that people would start shooting 400 yards if they had a scope.. Come on, obviously he had little grasp of the drop of a muzzleloader bullet at that distance. If he had he would have known that a projectile at that distance would drop something like 5 feet!
Actually if you look into the statistics from states that allow scopes the shot distance is the same as those without. The gun not the sight dictates shot distance. The ballistics don't change. Muzzleloading no matter what the type of gun or sight is still a close range sport. As it should be.
Muzzleloader hunters are far from having their seasons shortened. In fact the in next 3 year package the WDFW is likely to increase them quite a bit. Check out meetings and follow the WDFW web site for details.
Post by: bobcat on November 25, 2008, 01:49:23 PM
Quote
24. ISSUE 35C: Providing More Muzzleloader Elk Hunting Time BACKGROUND: One way to improve the muzzleloader elk season
is to lengthen the current season. For the 2009-2011 hunting seasons, this could be accomplished by always opening the
season on October 1 and closing before the modern firearm deer season opener (which opens on the Saturday after October
10). The 2009 season would close on October 11, the 2010 season would close on October 10, and the 2011 season would
close on October 9. Which of the following alternatives do you prefer? ALTERNATIVES:
Open muzzleloader elk on October
1 and close before modern firearm
deer season opens.
44.0% 1715
No change; retain muzzleloader
deer and elk overlap with 7 day
season that includes one weekend.
36.9% 1439
No preference. 19.1% 745
Comments: 137
answered question 3899
skipped question 1081
Post by: HawkenBob on November 25, 2008, 01:54:20 PM
You mentioned, etical in your previous post.
I will shoot an Elk at 100 yrds if the shot is right with my Hawken. I would not shoot beyond as I can only get a 4 inch group at 100. If I had a scope 100 would be a no brainer. Id take a 150 to 200 and or would buy an inline to increase that or make it more lethal/ethicle to take advantage of the scope.
No arguments here but it will increase my effective range personally. That I know and could prove at the range any day.
Post by: bobcat on November 25, 2008, 01:55:28 PM
Post by: Curly on November 25, 2008, 02:24:20 PM
Not trying to agitate anyone, just trying make a few points for discussion sake and get some of your thoughts.....
Longbowz, I don't think anyone here is agitated. Thanks for your comments. These discussions are great and IMO exactly what these forums are for.
A scope increases the shot distance by a person being able to shoot accurately enough to take the shot at longer distances than with open sights. With open sights, it gets hard to tell where you're aiming when your sight covers up your target and the farther the distance, the worse it gets.
Bobcat, thanks for posting that survey question. I voted in that survey to make the season Oct 1, but I also commented that it should open even earlier than Oct 1. It should really open the last week in Sept.......this year it should have opened at least by Monday Sept 29.
Again, I don't have statistics, but I'm sure the success rate would go up if scopes are allowed. (I know of a few more shots over the last 20 years I would have taken if I had a scope). If the WDFW allows scopes and 209 primers, and the success rates go up, then wouldn't they have to reduce the opportunity to get the number of animals killed back down to their objective? Or do you think they would just reduce the modern or archery season to account for the numbers?
Even though they want to have more ML hunters, I would be surprised if they continue to have a longer season if the success rates go up; how can they provide longer seasons and lessen the equipment requirements and the success rates not go up?
If a TC Encore or the like were legal, it wouldn't be much of a handicap over a modern firearm. The only real difference would be the time required to get a follow-up shot.