Post by: Nice Racks on April 11, 2014, 09:16:59 PM
Post by: Greg Mullins on April 11, 2014, 09:41:16 PM
Post by: Nice Racks on April 11, 2014, 09:44:19 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 11, 2014, 11:37:40 PM
If I run the numbers as a generic configuration you should be about 10% FOC. Not bad! Especially if you are not shooting a lot in bad weather conditions or at extended distances. But if you were to go to the 125 grain head you will probably be between 12 and 13%. In my mind that's perfection squared :tup:
Post by: Nice Racks on April 12, 2014, 08:30:01 AM
Post by: xXLojackXx on April 12, 2014, 10:27:37 AM
Post by: nw_bowhunter on April 12, 2014, 11:11:26 AM
Post by: bullfisher on April 12, 2014, 11:40:09 AM
Stay away from lighted nocks. All it's going to do is add weight in the back, and a significant amount at that. Know where your arrow will shoot and forget the illumination.Agreed,
Illuminated knocks make me peekaboo my shots.
Post by: Nice Racks on April 12, 2014, 01:11:06 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2014, 01:29:45 PM
With a 100 grain head my arrow ways in at 424 grains.
The calculation I used put your arrow at 408. Are you sure that those are cut to 29.5. These calculations are rarely off by 16 grains. Usually 2 or 3 grains for glue variance. Depending on where that 16 grains is it could make a big difference. If it's on the back you could have troubles. If on the front you should be great.
That weight would be closer to the Maxima KV shafts or the Mayhem. Also, Phat heads aren't known for being super consistent in weight. Might want to check that too.
Post by: Smossy on April 12, 2014, 02:26:36 PM
Stay away from lighted nocks. All it's going to do is add weight in the back, and a significant amount at that. Know where your arrow will shoot and forget the illumination.Compensated easily by heavier head inserts. Problem solved. I have 23 grain brass inserts. Literally makes the 10-11g increase from the lighted nocks non existant.
Post by: Nice Racks on April 12, 2014, 03:39:02 PM
With a 100 grain head my arrow ways in at 424 grains.
The calculation I used put your arrow at 408. Are you sure that those are cut to 29.5. These calculations are rarely off by 16 grains. Usually 2 or 3 grains for glue variance. Depending on where that 16 grains is it could make a big difference. If it's on the back you could have troubles. If on the front you should be great.
That weight would be closer to the Maxima KV shafts or the Mayhem. Also, Phat heads aren't known for being super consistent in weight. Might want to check that too.
Strange. I had my arrow weighed last year at Sportsman's Warehouse. So, if the new ones I purchase end up around 408 grains, will a 125 weight broadhead still put me at an optimal FOC, or will I have to add a little more to the front? Life was much easier in the late 70's when all I did was have Game Getter 2117 cut and throw on a good ole Bear Razorhead :chuckle:
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2014, 04:30:04 PM
It's the 424 grains I worry about. Mainly because I can't figure out where that 16 grains is coming from. If it's spread throughout the arrow you will still be fine. If it is the Phat Head being over weight that should be fine too. If it is on the nock end of the arrow it could be trouble.
Post by: nw_bowhunter on April 12, 2014, 07:20:32 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2014, 08:18:21 PM
So at 408 he wouldn't make legal hunting weight? He needs 420 based on his draw weight. Maybe I missed something.
So maybe that's how it got to be 424 :chuckle: I didn't even look at that column. That's an easy fix though. Just drop two pound of draw weight and Shazaam - Washington Legal! Or, if the inserts can be taken out just replace them with 23 grain Beman Vi-Brake inserts. Goes to show how ridiculous that law really is.
I was more worried about the spine. If it's a modern bow 330 IBO or more that arrow at 29.5" is pretty dang light in spine. At 340 IBO/29.5" it gets a little dangerous.
Post by: sakoshooter on April 12, 2014, 09:22:58 PM
Post by: Nice Racks on April 12, 2014, 10:41:08 PM
So at 408 he wouldn't make legal hunting weight? He needs 420 based on his draw weight. Maybe I missed something.
So maybe that's how it got to be 424 :chuckle: I didn't even look at that column. That's an easy fix though. Just drop two pound of draw weight and Shazaam - Washington Legal! Or, if the inserts can be taken out just replace them with 23 grain Beman Vi-Brake inserts. Goes to show how ridiculous that law really is.
I was more worried about the spine. If it's a modern bow 330 IBO or more that arrow at 29.5" is pretty dang light in spine. At 340 IBO/29.5" it gets a little dangerous.
Yea I'm shooting a G5 Primal rated at 332. So since I'm going to purchase some more arrows are the 350 spines ok, or is there a better choice?
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2014, 11:43:30 PM
Post by: Nice Racks on April 13, 2014, 08:19:51 AM
Post by: Nice Racks on April 13, 2014, 06:41:51 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 13, 2014, 08:34:03 PM
Just curious guys. Is the spine and draw weight chart on the C E boxes not accurate? Reason for asking is according to it a 70lb draw and a 29 inch arrow should have a 350 spine and a 450 isn't even listed. Please educate me.
Arrow manufacturers often are working on some old numbers as bow technology has been changing faster than they can keep up. Even if they were able to keep up you might have a box that has been in circulation for a couple of years. Manufacturers are generally averaging out bow speeds to make those graphs too. Modern trajectory programs such as Archers-Advantage will match dynamic spine to you and your bow, draw length, arrow length, point weight, insert weight, nock weight, nock adapter, plus type, quantity and brand of fletching.
Manufacturer's spine/arrow charts can get you started in the right area, within reason. But most don't include enough detail to cover the differences between a 20 year old compound with a 295IBO rating, last years model Hoyt at 325 IBO and a new PSE at 360-370IBO.
I highly recommend anyone who is getting serious about archery to download one of the programs such as Archers Advantage. Why buy a bow for $1,000, and not spend the $39.95 for such a program before you go out and stock up on $300 with of arrows. It's a sound investment and for a seamhead like me...A whole heck of a lot of fun!!
Post by: Nice Racks on April 13, 2014, 09:39:04 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 13, 2014, 10:18:03 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 13, 2014, 10:21:30 PM
Life was much easier in the late 70's when all I did was have Game Getter 2117 cut and throw on a good ole Bear Razorhead :chuckle:
It sure was! Sometimes I thing high brace height and slow speeds are worth revisiting. And we still killed a whole crud load of animals back then. Those were my Glory Days ;)
Post by: RadSav on April 13, 2014, 11:05:46 PM
I also changed your insert from an 11 grain Carbon Express insert to a 21 grain CB Beman/Easton insert. I think we have it nailed on that one as now your calculated arrow weight in the AA program is 423 grains. With the Maxima Hunter 350's that gives you just shy of what I consider optimal FOC at 11%. That's good enough for me that if you were to keep the 350 spine I'd say you are just fine right where you are.
However, with that longer draw length combined with the Harsh 332 IBO cam I'm thinking you are definitely light on spine. Over the past 10 or so years of using this program I've learned to trust what it says for arrow spine. I've had a number of bows where I thought arrow flight was as good as could be expect, but I blamed the bow for not shooting them overly well. Then by simply following Archers-Advantages recommendation on arrow spine and point weight those same bows suddenly shot the way I always thought they should. My thought is once you have reached that optimal point in FOC and spine you the shooter can make larger mistakes in form and follow through without seeing it as pronounced on the target. :dunno:
So anyway, back to your Archers Advantage profile... Assuming your draw length is also 29.5" I show your maximum draw weight to remain "Marginal" with the .337 spined Maxima 350 to be 65#. And to reach "Optimal" spine with that arrow your maximum draw weight would be 62#. Dead center perfect draw weight with your set up would then be 60# of draw weight. (exactly where I am with a 335IBO bow shooting Maxima 350's and a 1/2" shorter draw length)
To hit optimal FOC using the .298 spined Maxima Hunter 450 you really should use the 125 grain point bringing your FOC to 11.7%. However, in doing so you still don't hit optimal spine with a full 70# of draw weight. To find yourself in the optimal range you then drop draw weight to 68#. But, you are only slightly weak at 70# draw weight, which is completely acceptable if you don't want to lose that 4.25 fps.
Now here is the big kicker when using these programs...not all 332 IBO bows shoot the same speed. So while AA's test bow may have been 333IBO yours may only be 330IBO. That means it's not uncommon for these unverified numbers to be +/- 3 pounds. That could mean you are center of optimal with your bow at 70#. Though it is doubtful the Maxima Hunter 350 will ever put you close to Optimal if you are shooting that 29.5/70 setup.
Post by: demontang on April 14, 2014, 07:26:22 AM
Post by: RadSav on April 14, 2014, 08:00:40 AM
Dang I need the program :tup:
$39.95 for the down load is a steal! Every serious archer should have it.
Post by: demontang on April 14, 2014, 10:56:12 AM
Post by: Nice Racks on April 15, 2014, 01:07:11 PM
I updated all the information I had for you in Archers-Advantage. Amazing how good this program is when you start putting detailed information in place! Currently I have your Quest Primal at 70# draw weight and 29.5" of draw length.
I also changed your insert from an 11 grain Carbon Express insert to a 21 grain CB Beman/Easton insert. I think we have it nailed on that one as now your calculated arrow weight in the AA program is 423 grains. With the Maxima Hunter 350's that gives you just shy of what I consider optimal FOC at 11%. That's good enough for me that if you were to keep the 350 spine I'd say you are just fine right where you are.
However, with that longer draw length combined with the Harsh 332 IBO cam I'm thinking you are definitely light on spine. Over the past 10 or so years of using this program I've learned to trust what it says for arrow spine. I've had a number of bows where I thought arrow flight was as good as could be expect, but I blamed the bow for not shooting them overly well. Then by simply following Archers-Advantages recommendation on arrow spine and point weight those same bows suddenly shot the way I always thought they should. My thought is once you have reached that optimal point in FOC and spine you the shooter can make larger mistakes in form and follow through without seeing it as pronounced on the target. :dunno:
So anyway, back to your Archers Advantage profile... Assuming your draw length is also 29.5" I show your maximum draw weight to remain "Marginal" with the .337 spined Maxima 350 to be 65#. And to reach "Optimal" spine with that arrow your maximum draw weight would be 62#. Dead center perfect draw weight with your set up would then be 60# of draw weight. (exactly where I am with a 335IBO bow shooting Maxima 350's and a 1/2" shorter draw length)
To hit optimal FOC using the .298 spined Maxima Hunter 450 you really should use the 125 grain point bringing your FOC to 11.7%. However, in doing so you still don't hit optimal spine with a full 70# of draw weight. To find yourself in the optimal range you then drop draw weight to 68#. But, you are only slightly weak at 70# draw weight, which is completely acceptable if you don't want to lose that 4.25 fps.
Now here is the big kicker when using these programs...not all 332 IBO bows shoot the same speed. So while AA's test bow may have been 333IBO yours may only be 330IBO. That means it's not uncommon for these unverified numbers to be +/- 3 pounds. That could mean you are center of optimal with your bow at 70#. Though it is doubtful the Maxima Hunter 350 will ever put you close to Optimal if you are shooting that 29.5/70 setup.
Thanks RadSav. I think. :)