Post by: bbarnes on April 23, 2014, 02:25:39 PM
Weyerhaeuser is expanding a fee system it started in Lewis County last year to its 420,000 acres in the Longview area and its holdings east of Aberdeen.
An advantage for hunters is that they’ll be able to get onto Weyerhaeuser land every day the permit is valid. In the past, much of the land was open for motorized access only on weekends during major deer and elk seasons. But the cost of such access will range from $150 per family and up.
The fee access program is the latest development in gradual restrictions on public access to private timberlands in the region.
Weyerhaeuser spokesman Anthony Chavez said the pilot project in the Pe Ell and Vail tree farms in Lewis County last year was a success from Weyerhaeuser’s perspective. “Not only did the permits sell out the first day, we’ve heard from folks they’ve enjoyed the experience,” he said, because fewer people were in the field.
According to Chavez, the company also witnessed a decline in vandalism and garbage dumping that have led to most private timber companies in the Northwest restricting access in the past decade.
“This is new to the Northwest,” Chavez said. “We’ve been doing this in the Southeast for years.”
Cowlitz County Commissioner Jim Misner said the new Weyerhaeuser policy “appears to be really poor timing,” considering the spread of elk hoof disease.
Misner is a member of a group of officials meeting regularly to discuss the condition that is causing many elk in the region to limp painfully. Some local elk are undernourished because of hoof rot, making them less attractive to hunters, he said. In recent meetings, hunters have said last year’s elk season was one of the worst they’ve experienced, Misner said, so they may not be inclined to pay an access fee.
“I’m not totally opposed to it,” he said. “When I go out, I can’t stand how much garbage is left in the woods.”
The company will continue its policy of allowing the public to drive without a permit over Weyerhaeuser roads that provide the only access to public lands.
Chavez said the permits should be available in June via an online system at WY.com/accessWA.
Tom Paulu is a features writer for The Daily News. He covers Outdoors and Entertainment, among other things. Reach him at 360-577-2540 or tpaulu@tdn.com.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 23, 2014, 06:30:24 PM
Post by: bbarnes on April 24, 2014, 07:17:27 AM
Post by: Landowner on April 24, 2014, 09:51:43 PM
I suspect with required matching payroll taxes, B&O taxes, industrial insurance taxes, unemployment benefits taxes, fuel taxes, sales taxes, personal property (use) taxes, and real property taxes (open space), the timber companies are paying their fair share in this state. (and undoubtedly have paid significant tax dollars to use the roads). Not to mention the payrolls they fund for employees who pay taxes and spend lots of money every day to keep the economy going.
Open space taxation is primarily intended to encourage people and business to keep properties in farm and timber use. Absent open space taxation, a lot of farms and timber grounds would be subdivisions or a lot of cabin parcels. That would cause a negative effect on consumers and "open space".
Post by: bbarnes on April 24, 2014, 10:51:37 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on April 24, 2014, 11:07:39 PM
Post by: haus on April 25, 2014, 01:18:46 AM
I'm talking the corporations not the small timber farms.Ive spent a lot of years trying to volunteer to clean up there lands,to keep them open.After there cleaned up at no cost to the owners,gates get shut and no access.In Idaho and Montana they leave dumpsters at the main line,so the community dirt bags will dump there,instead of the woods.Like I said don't buy there permits,elk eat there trees because they've NUKED everything else,and they will beg us to come in and hunt.People don't get the big greedy pitcher here,there only concerned with getting to kill stuff.We have power in numbers go out and camp for a couple years,don't buy a hunting license and the WDFW will get the message.They would loose about 60 million in revenue then you would have there attention.
Lets be realistic here Barnes, at the corporate level how disappointed is it for Weyerhaeuser to be faced with this hoof rot issue on their land?
Stacking opposition against buying the passes isn't feasible, the passes will be bought out in a matter of days. I assume Green Diamond sold out in a matter of days too. Only Hancock is lagging behind right now since they've hit the threshold of cost surpassing opportunity and their new found 'competition' is offering a better deal on most counts.
Rallying support to abruptly stop buying licenses from our fuehrer WDFW isn't going to work either. This is far from an united interest group. So lets exclude the torch burning and look at this like a bunch of capitalists, because lets face it, united or not, its the factor of how much hunters are really willing to spend that matters here.
Since this is the internet, I'll focus on a possible negative outcome first, we'll call this the lost cause scenario.....The new widespread sale of land access for hunting would result in an accelerated decline in participation over the next 5-10 years. For hunters the costs greatly outweigh demand/desire and the suppliers reaction is to find alternative markets for their product instead of meeting the equilibrium for general hunters. Alternative markets, such as packaging their product in large scale leases for hunting guides and clubs, which would also open the door to anti-hunting groups interested in purchasing the leases(YES THIS HAS HAPPENED). Another alternative market is simply the loss prevention route. Private landowners using hired guns to control the populations and just writing it all off as a loss. Sound familiar? It should. WDFW, DNR, and NFS continue down the road they're already on by placing greater emphasis towards other interest groups that use their lands. Depressing sad, don your tinfoil horrible stuff here.
Lets look at a possible positive. A net increase in competition for the hunters willing to buy access passes forces the market price on passes to lower while concurrently causing suppliers to sweeten the deal; such as increased camping opportunity, increasing the available access days, guaranteed access during periods of increased wildfire risk(bear and early archery elk/deer), improved hunting opportunity via better habitat management. etc. Competition amongst the private landowners forces the public land managers to keep up with the Jeffersons, and improve their own management policies. Hunters recognize how much influence their buying power has and realize they can collectively control the market and force public policy in their favor.
Alright alright, I swear I'm sober, this could happen :chuckle:
Access passes don't concern me so much, its the large scale leases serving the 1%, those freak me out. If we could kill that whole possibility with fire, I'd love to see it. Doing so would require a heavy dose of socialism, which freaks me out more...
Post by: bowbuild on April 25, 2014, 12:07:52 PM
I'm talking the corporations not the small timber farms.Ive spent a lot of years trying to volunteer to clean up there lands,to keep them open.After there cleaned up at no cost to the owners,gates get shut and no access.In Idaho and Montana they leave dumpsters at the main line,so the community dirt bags will dump there,instead of the woods.Like I said don't buy there permits,elk eat there trees because they've NUKED everything else,and they will beg us to come in and hunt.People don't get the big greedy pitcher here,there only concerned with getting to kill stuff.We have power in numbers go out and camp for a couple years,don't buy a hunting license and the WDFW will get the message.They would loose about 60 million in revenue then you would have there attention.
Lets be realistic here Barnes, at the corporate level how disappointed is it for Weyerhaeuser to be faced with this hoof rot issue on their land?
Stacking opposition against buying the passes isn't feasible, the passes will be bought out in a matter of days. I assume Green Diamond sold out in a matter of days too. Only Hancock is lagging behind right now since they've hit the threshold of cost surpassing opportunity and their new found 'competition' is offering a better deal on most counts.
Rallying support to abruptly stop buying licenses from our fuehrer WDFW isn't going to work either. This is far from an united interest group. So lets exclude the torch burning and look at this like a bunch of capitalists, because lets face it, united or not, its the factor of how much hunters are really willing to spend that matters here.
Since this is the internet, I'll focus on a possible negative outcome first, we'll call this the lost cause scenario.....The new widespread sale of land access for hunting would result in an accelerated decline in participation over the next 5-10 years. For hunters the costs greatly outweigh demand/desire and the suppliers reaction is to find alternative markets for their product instead of meeting the equilibrium for general hunters. Alternative markets, such as packaging their product in large scale leases for hunting guides and clubs, which would also open the door to anti-hunting groups interested in purchasing the leases(YES THIS HAS HAPPENED). Another alternative market is simply the loss prevention route. Private landowners using hired guns to control the populations and just writing it all off as a loss. Sound familiar? It should. WDFW, DNR, and NFS continue down the road they're already on by placing greater emphasis towards other interest groups that use their lands. Depressing sad, don your tinfoil horrible stuff here.
Lets look at a possible positive. A net increase in competition for the hunters willing to buy access passes forces the market price on passes to lower while concurrently causing suppliers to sweeten the deal; such as increased camping opportunity, increasing the available access days, guaranteed access during periods of increased wildfire risk(bear and early archery elk/deer), improved hunting opportunity via better habitat management. etc. Competition amongst the private landowners forces the public land managers to keep up with the Jeffersons, and improve their own management policies. Hunters recognize how much influence their buying power has and realize they can collectively control the market and force public policy in their favor.
Alright alright, I swear I'm sober, this could happen :chuckle:
Access passes don't concern me so much, its the large scale leases serving the 1%, those freak me out. If we could kill that whole possibility with fire, I'd love to see it. Doing so would require a heavy dose of socialism, which freaks me out more...
That 1% your concerned about, will soon be the 99% your not concerned about. There are lots of things we pay for in life, and accessing land that traditionally was open for hunters is now just another nail in the coffin that will eventually reduce hunter numbers to the point of voters being able to outlaw hunting all together. England is a good example of this....where the rich had overwhelming power over land, and the poor were subservient.....until they got to the voting polls, and inner-government.
One of the major difference between southern states, and the northwest is the ability to harvest more than one animal...how many states have multiple tags for deer?? Here one tag for the most part, and that is regulated by sex, as is most states. Comparing blacktail deer to the prolific ability of whitetail is not even close!
On top of the above...the game department is NOT in line with property leases, and game units do not align. Example.... If I want to hunt the satsop unit archery....it is only open during the early season......$200 Then closed, no late season hunt. I would then have to purchase another permit to hunt the wynoochee another $200 plus tags ect, ect. that is a lot of money for a damn doe..... I am a meat hunter!
It may not make a difference, but I refuse to support greed, and these timber companies could do ONE simple thing....close the damn gates in the off season......or only keep a limited number of gates open with cameras at the gates....it is doable!
Bowbuild
Post by: snowpack on April 25, 2014, 12:24:06 PM
Post by: bowbuild on April 25, 2014, 01:59:22 PM
I would disagree with your assertion that blacktails can't be as prolific as whitetails. If there is enough nutrition and a low number of predators, the blacktail populations will explode. Pretty sure that blacktails and whitetails almost always start with twins right after the rut. Then if nutrition is good enough, will carry the twins until born. There are places around Washington that are having deer problems because of how many blacktails there are. There are also places in E Washington that have whitetails and lots of predators and herds that only allow for the harvest of one buck. Those other states knocked back the predators a long time ago and generally have a lot of 'edible' agriculture (not giant stands of doug fir).
You see Weyerhauser planting crops for deer?? Think there's another thread going about herbicides, and the ability of the average hunter to successfully hunt cats, and bear through effective means of hound hunting/baiting has been taken away....for the most part. I think your arguement may be better placed in Ocean shores, but we can't hunt there either. Could blacktail be more prolific....sure...but we need to talk about how things are handled now, not in a perfect enviroment...or at least a better enviroment.
Bowbuild
Post by: steeleywhopper on April 25, 2014, 02:13:57 PM
Post by: fireweed on April 25, 2014, 02:15:33 PM
Sounds pretty radical.
I suspect with required matching payroll taxes, B&O taxes, industrial insurance taxes, unemployment benefits taxes, fuel taxes, sales taxes, personal property (use) taxes, and real property taxes (open space), the timber companies are paying their fair share in this state. (and undoubtedly have paid significant tax dollars to use the roads). Not to mention the payrolls they fund for employees who pay taxes and spend lots of money every day to keep the economy going.
Open space taxation is primarily intended to encourage people and business to keep properties in farm and timber use. Absent open space taxation, a lot of farms and timber grounds would be subdivisions or a lot of cabin parcels. That would cause a negative effect on consumers and "open space".
Here are the reasons for tax breaks on timberland, directly from the law...
.RCW 84.33.010
the legislature hereby finds that:
(1) The public welfare requires that this state's system for taxation of timber and forest lands be modernized to assure the citizens of this state and its future generations the advantages to be derived from the continuous production of timber and forest products from the significant area of privately owned forests in this state. It is this state's policy to encourage forestry and restocking and reforesting of such forests so that present and future generations will enjoy the benefits which forest areas provide in enhancing water supply, in minimizing soil erosion, storm and flood damage to persons or property, in providing a habitat for wild game, in providing scenic and recreational spaces, in maintaining land areas whose forests contribute to the natural ecological equilibrium, and in providing employment and profits to its citizens and raw materials for products needed by everyone.
Sounds like a trade off of tax breaks for public benefits---including recreation. And its a really a tax shift--homeowners and businesses pay more so timberland can pay less. Which was fair, until they started charging for public benefits. That's called double-dipping. Choose one or the other--tax subsidy or charge for entry NOT BOTH.
(And big timber gets a low B&O tax rate too compared with mom and pop businesses).
Post by: Bob33 on April 25, 2014, 02:27:29 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 25, 2014, 02:55:06 PM
Sounds pretty radical.
I suspect with required matching payroll taxes, B&O taxes, industrial insurance taxes, unemployment benefits taxes, fuel taxes, sales taxes, personal property (use) taxes, and real property taxes (open space), the timber companies are paying their fair share in this state. (and undoubtedly have paid significant tax dollars to use the roads). Not to mention the payrolls they fund for employees who pay taxes and spend lots of money every day to keep the economy going.
Open space taxation is primarily intended to encourage people and business to keep properties in farm and timber use. Absent open space taxation, a lot of farms and timber grounds would be subdivisions or a lot of cabin parcels. That would cause a negative effect on consumers and "open space".
All companies pay high taxes. Most mom and pops pay a far higher share of their revenues than do large corporations which are able to negotiate tax deals with the states, counties, and principalities where they operate. There's no question that big timber pays a lot of taxes and there's no question that they make piles of money. But are they doing their fair share with regards to the breaks they're receiving for recreational use of their land? They aren't. They're looking at a windfall of $2.25M from selling permits to hunt land where they already receive tax breaks in the St. Helens Tree Farm for recreational use. Are they increasing the taxes they pay because they've decided not to participate in open public recreational use? No. In addition, are they benefiting the wildlife that belong to the people of WA? It appears not. If big timber has decided not only to stop providing public open recreational access but continues harming our wildlife to boot, they need to pay. They need to pay a higher rate and they need to fix the problem with the spraying. I'm all for working with big companies and for landowner rights. But when they think they're so big that they don't need to add value in return, it's time to wake them up.
Post by: bbarnes on April 25, 2014, 03:38:45 PM
Post by: cryfowl on May 08, 2014, 08:50:09 PM
Post by: PolarBear on May 08, 2014, 08:59:26 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on May 08, 2014, 09:27:41 PM
Post by: RB on May 08, 2014, 10:01:09 PM
A dozen of us should come together and bid on that 5k acre chunk thats going to come up for lease. Ill bet its going to abut the st helens monument and the toutle unit. :tup:
Yeah but what would that cost??
Post by: washelkhunter on May 08, 2014, 10:11:34 PM
A dozen of us should come together and bid on that 5k acre chunk thats going to come up for lease. Ill bet its going to abut the st helens monument and the toutle unit. :tup:
Yeah but what would that cost??
I dont know, its going for bids. But you know what they say.
Post by: PolarBear on May 08, 2014, 10:26:48 PM
Post by: bbarnes on May 08, 2014, 11:24:41 PM
Post by: bobcat on May 09, 2014, 12:17:38 AM
The other problem is you can lease a area,but if you don't draw a tag you can't hunt the Toutle,Margaret.There drawing is after the WDFW DRAWS OUR TAGS.
I assume for those who are drawn for Toutle or Margaret elk permits, that they would simply buy a St Helens access permit for $150 when they go on sale June 23rd.
Of course we don't even know yet that a person who draws Margaret or Toutle will have to buy an access permit. They have not provided us with all the details yet. Supposedly some areas will still be free. Here is what we know so far:
Quote
Beginning August 1st, 2014, the St. Helens Tree Farm will start a new recreational access program.
You can go to www.WYRecreationNW.com (http://www.WYRecreationNW.com) for full details on the program starting May 19th. These
are the basics:
We will sell up to 15,000 permits online for $150. Each permit will be good for the permittee,
legally married spouse, and children and grand children 18 years old and younger. A permit is
required for motorized and non-motorized access. These permits will be valid from August
1st, 2014 through January 31st, 2015 and are required to access the majority of the tree farm
during that time frame.
Permits will be sold online starting Monday, June 23rd at 6:00 PM through September 30th.
We will offer through an online bidding process, up to twelve areas for lease. The lease will
provide the lessee and lessee’s designated friends and family exclusive recreational use of the
area.
Lease bidding will start Monday, May 19th and end Thursday, June 5th at 6:00 PM.
We will not require a permit to access most corridors to state land and fisheries.
Some areas will still have free access as in the past.
Post by: t6 on May 09, 2014, 01:38:12 AM
Post by: bobcat on May 09, 2014, 07:40:28 AM
Jonker said the number of $150 permits the company plans to offer -- 15,000 -- is about the same as the total number of deer and elk hunters in the area last season. “If you want to hunt, you can. You just need to get a permit,” she said.
However, she said the agency may have to reconsider the way it allocates special hunting permits based on where Weyerhaeuser establishes areas that can only be accessed by lease-holders. “There’s a lot of questions I don’t know the answer to,” Jonker said.
I would bet money that Toutle and Margaret will be a general season next year for elk. Weyerhaeuser now controls the number of hunters in certain game management units, there's no need for the state to do so anymore.
Post by: Bob33 on May 09, 2014, 08:30:15 AM
I would bet money that Toutle and Margaret will be a general season next year for elk. Weyerhaeuser now controls the number of hunters in certain game management units, there's no need for the state to do so anymore.I don't know the exact number but my guess is that combined permit applications in the Margaret and Toutle units are in the 15,000+ range. That's $90K of permit applications revenue. I don't expect them to give that up.
Post by: bearpaw on May 09, 2014, 08:37:47 AM
I would bet money that Toutle and Margaret will be a general season next year for elk. Weyerhaeuser now controls the number of hunters in certain game management units, there's no need for the state to do so anymore.I don't know the exact number but my guess is that combined permit applications in the Margaret and Toutle units are in the 15,000+ range. That's $90K of permit applications revenue. I don't expect them to give that up.
Bingo....
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 09, 2014, 08:40:29 AM
Prime hunting land for elk that have trouble walking. Safe to eat, too, if you believe what we're told. Even though the DFW continues to tell us they don't know what causes elk hoof disease, they're somehow confident in telling us to go ahead and chow down.
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 09, 2014, 08:42:24 AM
I would bet money that Toutle and Margaret will be a general season next year for elk. Weyerhaeuser now controls the number of hunters in certain game management units, there's no need for the state to do so anymore.I don't know the exact number but my guess is that combined permit applications in the Margaret and Toutle units are in the 15,000+ range. That's $90K of permit applications revenue. I don't expect them to give that up.
You need a new calculator, Bob. The figure is $2.25M, and that's only if all of the permits sell for the minimum $150.
Post by: snowpack on May 09, 2014, 08:55:34 AM
Post by: bobcat on May 09, 2014, 09:21:30 AM
I did wonder if the WDFW would want to lose out on the application money. But maybe there wouldn't be much of a decrease in applications sold anyway.
Wouldn't people still buy the applications and just find other permits to apply for? I would. I'm not going to quit applying for special hunts just because Toutle and Margaret are no longer options.
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 09, 2014, 09:53:51 AM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on May 09, 2014, 10:48:45 AM
Well, I know the rumor was that Margaret and Toutle were going to a general season, and this was before any of the access permits for Weyerhaeuser lands became required.
I did wonder if the WDFW would want to lose out on the application money. But maybe there wouldn't be much of a decrease in applications sold anyway.
Wouldn't people still buy the applications and just find other permits to apply for? I would. I'm not going to quit applying for special hunts just because Toutle and Margaret are no longer options.
I dont think it will happen :twocents: Both units have additional public land to hunt, and the preliminary indications are that weyco will still allow free access through certain areas to access it. Also, if its true that 15,000 applications will be available, I dont think they will sell out before the draws have been run regardless of sale dates.
If it did go general I for one would stop applying. At least in Bull category.
Post by: NWHydroprint on May 09, 2014, 06:17:39 PM
Post by: t6 on May 14, 2014, 11:17:23 AM