Post by: REHJWA on April 27, 2014, 03:07:51 PM
WDFW to review status of western gray squirrel, seeks public comment. WDFW initiated this review after accepting a citizen petition to consider giving western gray squirrels a greater level of protection by elevating the species' status to endangered.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/mar2814b/ (http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/mar2814b/)
Other species of eastern gray squirrels, fox squirrels, California ground squirrels and Wild Turkeys are expanding and compete with the western gray.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_gray_squirrel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_gray_squirrel)
Post by: Limhangerslayer on April 27, 2014, 04:13:07 PM
Post by: Deer slayer on April 27, 2014, 04:33:32 PM
Post by: bigtex on April 27, 2014, 05:00:03 PM
The seasons they run for wild turkey already are hurting them, they don't need anything more. They already run too long of a season in the fall, a month and a half in the fall for a general hunt is overkill. But that's what this game department wants.:yeah:
They should totally eliminate the fall Teanaway permit season
Post by: Wacenturion on April 27, 2014, 05:02:55 PM
Let's see now....if I recall squirrels live in trees. What is a turkey getting food wise that a squirrel is not? Good grief. :bash:
Post by: Wacenturion on April 27, 2014, 05:06:31 PM
The seasons they run for wild turkey already are hurting them, they don't need anything more. They already run too long of a season in the fall, a month and a half in the fall for a general hunt is overkill. But that's what this game department wants.
Exactly...........as well as double birds allowed the same day in the same general areas during the spring season. It's all cumulative.
Post by: JODakota on April 27, 2014, 05:07:28 PM
Turkeys do not compete with squirrels period. WDFW turkey haters just keep throwing that out there like spaghetti to see if it sticks to the wall and make it seem to the uniformed as though something terrible is happening. That question has been answered many times years ago.
Let's see now....if I recall squirrels live in trees. What is a turkey getting food wise that a squirrel is not? Good grief. :bash:
Oh really? Are you a biologist? State your facts, sources ?
Post by: Limhangerslayer on April 27, 2014, 05:14:22 PM
I'm in the same boat as you. We used to like it when you're tag Rio, Merriam, or eastern and you had to buy them before the season. We have seen the area we hunt down in the blues decline since the heavy general fall seasons the last couple years.The seasons they run for wild turkey already are hurting them, they don't need anything more. They already run too long of a season in the fall, a month and a half in the fall for a general hunt is overkill. But that's what this game department wants.
Exactly...........as well as double birds allowed the same day in the same general areas during the spring season. It's all cumulative.
Post by: snowpack on April 27, 2014, 05:22:18 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on April 27, 2014, 05:42:35 PM
Turkeys do not compete with squirrels period. WDFW turkey haters just keep throwing that out there like spaghetti to see if it sticks to the wall and make it seem to the uniformed as though something terrible is happening. That question has been answered many times years ago.
Let's see now....if I recall squirrels live in trees. What is a turkey getting food wise that a squirrel is not? Good grief. :bash:
Oh really? Are you a biologist? State your facts, sources ?
I usually prefer to enjoy this forum just as a member, but since you have called me out so to speak, as a matter of fact, I am. As a sidenote to that, I also managed the Washington Wild Turkey Program for 20 years from 1987 till 2002, when I retired. That unfounded assertion and other equally stupid ones came up every time we wanted to expand opportunity statewide for turkeys during those years. No scientific data whatsoever to back it up, but hey, lets throw it out there and assume someone will believe it.
I'll leave it at that............
Post by: Wacenturion on April 27, 2014, 05:52:26 PM
I'm in the same boat as you. We used to like it when you're tag Rio, Merriam, or eastern and you had to buy them before the season. We have seen the area we hunt down in the blues decline since the heavy general fall seasons the last couple years.The seasons they run for wild turkey already are hurting them, they don't need anything more. They already run too long of a season in the fall, a month and a half in the fall for a general hunt is overkill. But that's what this game department wants.
Exactly...........as well as double birds allowed the same day in the same general areas during the spring season. It's all cumulative.
Completely agree. If any turkey hunter thinks that WDFW is generously giving you extra birds in the spring and liberal fall seasons because they want to somehow want to reward you and give you something special, think again. The quickest way to reduce turkey populations is to do whatever, which in this case is an attempt at trying to overharvest birds.
Just how many birds does someone have to kill to feel successful. Wasn't one nice gobbler in the spring enough as it used to be before you moved on to another area and subspecies? Two birds same day is nothing more than a prescription for wounded birds. Same in the fall.
It's your resource and hunters had better think about how to protect it, as you'll won't see WDFW releasing any more birds any time soon. :twocents:
Post by: buckfvr on April 27, 2014, 06:05:41 PM
Post by: JODakota on April 27, 2014, 06:06:35 PM
Turkeys do not compete with squirrels period. WDFW turkey haters just keep throwing that out there like spaghetti to see if it sticks to the wall and make it seem to the uniformed as though something terrible is happening. That question has been answered many times years ago.
Let's see now....if I recall squirrels live in trees. What is a turkey getting food wise that a squirrel is not? Good grief. :bash:
Oh really? Are you a biologist? State your facts, sources ?
I usually prefer to enjoy this forum just as a member, but since you have called me out so to speak, as a matter of fact, I am. As a sidenote to that, I also managed the Washington Wild Turkey Program for 20 years from 1987 till 2002, when I retired. That unfounded assertion and other equally stupid ones came up every time we wanted to expand opportunity statewide for turkeys during those years. No scientific data whatsoever to back it up, but hey, lets throw it out there and assume someone will believe it.
I'll leave it at that............
Awesome man, it was meant to be insulting. I am a man of facts. I like to hear why or see proof. Hopefully you didn't take that as an insult, I am married to a biologist so I am on your side :chuckle: . My biggest concern these days is when hunting an animal that isn't a native species becomes more important than one that is. It doesn't matter if the animal is big or little, they all deserve a fair shake when it comes to their native habitat. I am by no means a hippy, and you can ask quite a few members who know me, but I do believe in conservation.
Post by: JODakota on April 27, 2014, 06:11:03 PM
I'm in the same boat as you. We used to like it when you're tag Rio, Merriam, or eastern and you had to buy them before the season. We have seen the area we hunt down in the blues decline since the heavy general fall seasons the last couple years.The seasons they run for wild turkey already are hurting them, they don't need anything more. They already run too long of a season in the fall, a month and a half in the fall for a general hunt is overkill. But that's what this game department wants.
Exactly...........as well as double birds allowed the same day in the same general areas during the spring season. It's all cumulative.
Completely agree. If any turkey hunter thinks that WDFW is generously giving you extra birds in the spring and liberal fall seasons because they want to somehow want to reward you and give you something special, think again. The quickest way to reduce turkey populations is to do whatever, which in this case is an attempt at trying to overharvest birds.
Just how many birds does someone have to kill to feel successful. Wasn't one nice gobbler in the spring enough as it used to be before you moved on to another area and subspecies? Two birds same day is nothing more than a prescription for wounded birds. Same in the fall.
It's your resource and hunters had better think about how to protect it, as you'll won't see WDFW releasing any more birds any time soon. :twocents:
You are exactly right, this is what is happening to our elk populations with general tag spike hunting and 3 point or better. I'm currently living in North Dakota and I feel they have an excellent management program. You can even check their fish and game sight and see. They allow hunting based on how their herds and birds are doing. Some years it's closed and some years it's open. I see turkey's everyday here but because their numbers aren't what they should be due to a harsh winter, they are draw only this year.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 27, 2014, 06:16:53 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 27, 2014, 06:19:49 PM
Turkeys do not compete with squirrels period. WDFW turkey haters just keep throwing that out there like spaghetti to see if it sticks to the wall and make it seem to the uniformed as though something terrible is happening. That question has been answered many times years ago.:yeah: Some should not open there mouth until they know who they are talking too !! :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Let's see now....if I recall squirrels live in trees. What is a turkey getting food wise that a squirrel is not? Good grief. :bash:
Oh really? Are you a biologist? State your facts, sources ?
I usually prefer to enjoy this forum just as a member, but since you have called me out so to speak, as a matter of fact, I am. As a sidenote to that, I also managed the Washington Wild Turkey Program for 20 years from 1987 till 2002, when I retired. That unfounded assertion and other equally stupid ones came up every time we wanted to expand opportunity statewide for turkeys during those years. No scientific data whatsoever to back it up, but hey, lets throw it out there and assume someone will believe it.
I'll leave it at that............
Post by: bowhunterforever on April 28, 2014, 01:12:12 AM
The seasons they run for wild turkey already are hurting them, they don't need anything more. They already run too long of a season in the fall, a month and a half in the fall for a general hunt is overkill. But that's what this game department wants.:yeah: Wish they would get rid of the fall hunt
Post by: PA BEN on April 28, 2014, 05:41:17 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on April 28, 2014, 07:24:29 AM
When we had the big turkey boom, locals and farmers complained about the large numbers of turkeys destroying crops, crapping in cow feed areas, digging up gardens etc. The NWTF along w/ the WDFW did trap and transport programs in Stevens County. I know the numbers are down now, but just think what 200 turkeys do to a wheat field feeding everyday. There does have to be a balance.
There was a balance, in an active trap and relocation program. Landowners who had a problem were immediately helped out by field staff responsible for a certain landowner/access program which the agency gutted in early 2000. If there was a problem we addressed it. All staff, including myself were essentially on call through the winter to trap and move birds.
However, the problem with that was that powers now in WDFW (as of 1999) had control and essentially ended the turkey introduction and relocation program, as they didn't want any further expansion of birds, even into areas that already had them to periodically add new blood...i.e. Klickitat County.
Therefore the landowner-turkey relationship took a turn for the worst as the toilet so to speak, backed up. Complaints, no assistance and now the opportunity for those in WDFW who dislike turkeys, to propose and add liberal seasons in a smoke and mirror effort to look like they are addressing landowner issues.
It's funny back then that when a landowner had a problem and wanted them removed, when we got there to set up, they generally told us not to take them all and to leave some. :chuckle:
Everyone benefitted. Landowners could count on help. People got to assist staff on trapping which was fun and sportsmen in other counties got to be present and see birds released in their own backyard. A win win for WDFW and sportsman alike. Along came a new director, reorganization and control of turkey relocation put back into Wildlife Management whereby it all ceased. Forgot to mention that at this point WDFW used planning to excuse away the program as it had been run over 20 years. Had to be sure that turkeys weren't competing with squirrels, eating slugs, attacking grade schools....whatever red flag they could raise to avoid the continuance of turkey releases.
One final note. Volunteers from both NWTF chapters as well as local unaffiliated sportsmen and sportswomen helped on quite a few of the trapping efforts. As many were WDFW turkey program field staff only as we had to be there on a moments notice, usually within a day or two, weekends or weekdays.
The NWTF itself, the parent organization, didn't contribute much other than free transport boxes from Weyerhauser, which they simply put their logo on and acted as the middle man. The parent group also got involved as a broker, a middle man so to speak, to set prices on the different subspecies as far as the trapping cost per individual bird. That really had adverse impacts. Where I used to horsetrade and generally got birds free from other states, now we had to pay for them. That greatly restricted our ability to get birds easily as we had before, especially Easterns. Nothing more than another way to glean money from unsuspecting volunteers and pretend they were doing something wonderful. Like many conservation groups, it's all about the money.
Hope that clears it up some...........
Post by: jackelope on April 28, 2014, 07:45:17 AM
Turkeys do not compete with squirrels period. WDFW turkey haters just keep throwing that out there like spaghetti to see if it sticks to the wall and make it seem to the uniformed as though something terrible is happening. That question has been answered many times years ago.
Let's see now....if I recall squirrels live in trees. What is a turkey getting food wise that a squirrel is not? Good grief. :bash:
Oh really? Are you a biologist? State your facts, sources ?
I usually prefer to enjoy this forum just as a member, but since you have called me out so to speak, as a matter of fact, I am. As a sidenote to that, I also managed the Washington Wild Turkey Program for 20 years from 1987 till 2002, when I retired. That unfounded assertion and other equally stupid ones came up every time we wanted to expand opportunity statewide for turkeys during those years. No scientific data whatsoever to back it up, but hey, lets throw it out there and assume someone will believe it.
I'll leave it at that............
Awesome man, it was meant to be insulting. I am a man of facts. I like to hear why or see proof. Hopefully you didn't take that as an insult, I am married to a biologist so I am on your side :chuckle: . My biggest concern these days is when hunting an animal that isn't a native species becomes more important than one that is. It doesn't matter if the animal is big or little, they all deserve a fair shake when it comes to their native habitat. I am by no means a hippy, and you can ask quite a few members who know me, but I do believe in conservation.
:chuckle:
Sweet backpedal.
Post by: PA BEN on April 28, 2014, 07:54:09 AM
Post by: Tom Tamer on April 28, 2014, 09:53:43 AM
Post by: rosscrazyelk on April 28, 2014, 10:23:34 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 28, 2014, 10:34:02 AM
Turkeys do not compete with squirrels period. WDFW turkey haters just keep throwing that out there like spaghetti to see if it sticks to the wall and make it seem to the uniformed as though something terrible is happening. That question has been answered many times years ago.
Let's see now....if I recall squirrels live in trees. What is a turkey getting food wise that a squirrel is not? Good grief. :bash:
Oh really? Are you a biologist? State your facts, sources ?
I usually prefer to enjoy this forum just as a member, but since you have called me out so to speak, as a matter of fact, I am. As a sidenote to that, I also managed the Washington Wild Turkey Program for 20 years from 1987 till 2002, when I retired. That unfounded assertion and other equally stupid ones came up every time we wanted to expand opportunity statewide for turkeys during those years. No scientific data whatsoever to back it up, but hey, lets throw it out there and assume someone will believe it.
I'll leave it at that............
What about native grouse? Do turkeys compete with them?
Post by: bobcat on April 28, 2014, 10:35:59 AM
Quote
The Teanaway fall hunt should go away. Talking with town folk they are not even hearing of anyone getting one yet.
We got one out of Teanaway on April 19th. Perhaps the one and only for this year so far, it sounds like. :dunno:
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Post by: snowpack on April 28, 2014, 10:40:29 AM
Just out of curiosity how much does a turkey cost and is it illegal to plant birds on your own?They don't cost much. You can order chicks online for a few bucks each. Rios, merris and easterns are on a lot of the websites. If for private property you can have them run around like chickens/ducks/geese do.
Post by: Bob33 on April 28, 2014, 10:40:36 AM
Just out of curiosity how much does a turkey cost and is it illegal to plant birds on your own?I've seen them on sale at Safeway for $.99/pound at Thanksgiving. ;)
Post by: CP on April 28, 2014, 10:49:29 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on April 28, 2014, 11:07:54 AM
Just out of curiosity how much does a turkey cost and is it illegal to plant birds on your own?
The cost years ago (the 90's) were as follows..
Easterns....$500 a bird
Meriams and Rios....if I recall they were $100 a bird.
That doesn't include airfare.
Difference was the difficulty in trapping large numbers. Rios and Merriams generally are in large winter flocks and readily come to bait, Easterns much smaller numbers and warier.
Yes it is illegal to plant your own. Although the source may be wild game farm stock, they are nothing more than a nuisance from the get go, that is if they survive. The usual tipoff is people calling and complaining about birds crapping and roosting on decks, roofs etc.
Post by: Wacenturion on April 28, 2014, 11:14:34 AM
Just out of curiosity how much does a turkey cost and is it illegal to plant birds on your own?They don't cost much. You can order chicks online for a few bucks each. Rios, merris and easterns are on a lot of the websites. If for private property you can have them run around like chickens/ducks/geese do.
I believe he was referring to the cost of wild trapped birds we were bringing in.
If you release them on your own property you had better make sure they are confined somehow. If they wander off and pose a problem on adjacvent properties, you not only risk having an upset neighbor(s), but the possibility of a citation as well. :twocents:
Post by: rosscrazyelk on April 28, 2014, 11:59:50 AM
I got mine in the teanaway opening Day.QuoteThe Teanaway fall hunt should go away. Talking with town folk they are not even hearing of anyone getting one yet.
We got one out of Teanaway on April 19th. Perhaps the one and only for this year so far, it sounds like. :dunno:
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Post by: Wacenturion on April 28, 2014, 12:18:10 PM
Turkeys do not compete with squirrels period. WDFW turkey haters just keep throwing that out there like spaghetti to see if it sticks to the wall and make it seem to the uniformed as though something terrible is happening. That question has been answered many times years ago.
Let's see now....if I recall squirrels live in trees. What is a turkey getting food wise that a squirrel is not? Good grief. :bash:
Oh really? Are you a biologist? State your facts, sources ?
I usually prefer to enjoy this forum just as a member, but since you have called me out so to speak, as a matter of fact, I am. As a sidenote to that, I also managed the Washington Wild Turkey Program for 20 years from 1987 till 2002, when I retired. That unfounded assertion and other equally stupid ones came up every time we wanted to expand opportunity statewide for turkeys during those years. No scientific data whatsoever to back it up, but hey, lets throw it out there and assume someone will believe it.
I'll leave it at that............
What about native grouse? Do turkeys compete with them?
No, not in my opinion. Next to whitetail deer there has probably been more research done over the years on wild turkeys as many other species. Nothing in the literature suggests negative connotations in regards to competition with other wildlife. Most negatives come from nuisance or damage complaints, some of that stemming from people feeding and taming down flocks during adverse weather.
In fact one could argue that turkeys provide positive benefits in regards to other wildlife. I'll give an example. Years ago when we first released Rios in the Wenas area (early 80's), subsequent releases the following year showed some interesting observations. We had to go in by snowmobile with TV crews from various news stations, as the snow depth was fairly deep.
On south facing slopes around the base of quite a few conifers, it looked as if someone had taken a rototiller and made a huge circle around the base of those trees. There were plenty of evidence of turkeys and their scratchings which accounted for what we saw. Although we didn't see any of the birds that were already present in the area, there was an abundance of hungry small birds eagerly hopping around and feeding on anything that was exposed and qualified as food...seeds etc. Thank the turkeys for that.
In regards to western grey squirrels, I asked several biologists from different eastern states years ago in an effort to respond to objections by those opposed to turkeys at WDFW. A Pennsylvania biologist I asked summed it up best. He said....."What are you guys drinking in your water out there. Squirrels (referring to eastern grey and fox squirrels) can easily outcompete a turkey for mast. They can get the acorns and other mast items before they fall off the tree. Turkeys also create additional food sources by eating and deficatiing out seeds that eventually turn into new plants and mast producing trees. You're kidding right?" I explained that I was in complete agreement but mearly the messenger and had to ask.
Sharptailed grouse provides another interesting sidenote. Naysayers at WDFW used the possibility of turkeys competing with Sharptails to put off our early efforts in the 90's to establish Merriams in Okanogan County. Funny that both Merriams and Sharptails coexist on native ranges in Colorado without issues.
To give you an idea of the mentality at WDFW when a noted sharptailed/sage grouse expert from Colorado was at a professional Western Sage Grouse workshop many years ago, biologists in WDFW literally hung on his every word while discussing grouse issues on a field tour. Later when I had to address the yearly continuing "what if" questions leading up to releases, when I explained that this same expert basically said what I mentioned above about Merriams and Sharptails co-existing in Colorado, those same biologists basically said that he didn't know what he was talking about.
If it fits their argument, they use it or try to make people believe something that isn't true and has no scientific basis in fact. If it doesn't fit their opposition, they discount it as if the facts and data don't exist. That folks, is the existing mentality at WDFW.
Post by: MerriamMagician on April 28, 2014, 12:54:45 PM
Post by: irishevox on April 28, 2014, 12:58:10 PM
Post by: REHJWA on April 28, 2014, 01:05:14 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 28, 2014, 01:12:42 PM
Get our turkeys headed back in the right direction :tup:Interesting choice of words. :)
Post by: kevinlisa06 on April 28, 2014, 07:20:56 PM
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Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 28, 2014, 08:03:19 PM
A few years back I was hunting in Chewelah and a squirrel ran across the road in front of us carrying a turkey egg then he dropped it when he saw us. We came back up the road for lunch and yep the egg was eaten.sure it was not a mink or weasel ??
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Post by: Tom Tamer on April 29, 2014, 09:21:39 PM
Post by: kevinlisa06 on April 29, 2014, 09:40:42 PM
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Post by: REHJWA on April 30, 2014, 12:47:39 PM
This white tail buck eats a baby bird about 1 min into this video... :o
http://youtu.be/sQOQdBLHrLk (http://youtu.be/sQOQdBLHrLk)
Post by: kevinlisa06 on April 30, 2014, 01:58:19 PM
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Post by: irishevox on April 30, 2014, 03:09:27 PM
Post by: 270Shooter on May 01, 2014, 11:01:23 PM
Post by: huntnphool on May 01, 2014, 11:14:40 PM
Open mouth insert foot, lmfao!!! :chuckle:Turkeys do not compete with squirrels period. WDFW turkey haters just keep throwing that out there like spaghetti to see if it sticks to the wall and make it seem to the uniformed as though something terrible is happening. That question has been answered many times years ago.
Let's see now....if I recall squirrels live in trees. What is a turkey getting food wise that a squirrel is not? Good grief. :bash:
Oh really? Are you a biologist? State your facts, sources ?
Post by: Limhangerslayer on May 01, 2014, 11:40:23 PM
This is off topic but wacent, what kind of birds are in the wenas? Are they rios or merriams? Or a hybrid?They are all of the above, I believe the last Rios were planted in the 80's we planted Merriams in the late 90's. In all honesty the only pure birds are the eastern's in this state
Post by: Wacenturion on May 01, 2014, 11:56:08 PM
This is off topic but wacent, what kind of birds are in the wenas? Are they rios or merriams? Or a hybrid?
Originally Rio's were released in the Wenas back in the mid 80's. They didn't fair as well as expected as the habitat base was more Merriam like. Later Merriams were released in several areas from Yakima north to just south of Blewitt Pass. So to answer your question, Merriams, with perhaps a small amount of some residual Rio blood here and there in those areas.
Post by: bearpaw on May 02, 2014, 05:04:24 AM
Turkeys do not compete with squirrels period. WDFW turkey haters just keep throwing that out there like spaghetti to see if it sticks to the wall and make it seem to the uniformed as though something terrible is happening. That question has been answered many times years ago.
Let's see now....if I recall squirrels live in trees. What is a turkey getting food wise that a squirrel is not? Good grief. :bash:
:yeah: agree completely
Post by: ICEMAN on May 03, 2014, 11:05:19 AM
Safeway is a lot cheaper than shooting a wild one.
So would be stocking your freezer with steak....
Sorry, not giving up my hunts for the sake of cost effectiveness....
Post by: Jester052 on May 03, 2014, 01:10:04 PM
Post by: turkeydancer on May 09, 2014, 12:29:36 PM
:bash:
Post by: idahohuntr on May 09, 2014, 12:47:00 PM
Post by: bearpaw on May 09, 2014, 01:34:41 PM
Problems with birds on private lands should be dealt with differently, transplant, hot spot hunt, landowner tags, something, but to establish one of the most liberal turkey hunting season structures in the entire nation continues to degrade our public land turkey hunting opportunities. :twocents:
Post by: JODakota on May 09, 2014, 01:46:22 PM
Open mouth insert foot, lmfao!!! :chuckle:Turkeys do not compete with squirrels period. WDFW turkey haters just keep throwing that out there like spaghetti to see if it sticks to the wall and make it seem to the uniformed as though something terrible is happening. That question has been answered many times years ago.
Let's see now....if I recall squirrels live in trees. What is a turkey getting food wise that a squirrel is not? Good grief. :bash:
Oh really? Are you a biologist? State your facts, sources ?
Phool why would I insert my foot in my mouth? Because I asked a guy his profession I should have to watch what I say or feel embarrassed? That doesn't make any sense.
Post by: Limhangerslayer on May 09, 2014, 02:51:46 PM
Turkeys provide a significant source of recreation at a time when there isn't much other hunting. Turkeys should be managed prudently just as we should manage all other species. The NE has a lot of birds, but current management has greatly reduced flocks on public lands where most hunters can hunt.:yeah: turkeys can be hunted about 25% of the year.
Problems with birds on private lands should be dealt with differently, transplant, hot spot hunt, landowner tags, something, but to establish one of the most liberal turkey hunting season structures in the entire nation continues to degrade our public land turkey hunting opportunities. :twocents:
Post by: Tom Tamer on May 10, 2014, 04:17:03 AM
One big problem has been WDFW's Mick Cope ... he would talk to the NWTF State Board Of Directors (BOD), and even when the BOD stated that they didn't want the liberal seasons and bag limits, he would still go off by himself and have them implemented so he didn't have to deal with any landowner complaints ... plus it brought in more money to his department by doing so. He just doesn't care about the resource ... just about not having to listen to any complaints from landowners.
:bash:
Nail on the head, but then Al you and I were there to witness that horse crap. Just like I'm sure Wacent and Yelp saw that flippant attitude as well.
Post by: Tom Tamer on May 10, 2014, 04:23:09 AM
I don't see much of a problem with turkey management...and really I hope WDFW isn't putting much effort or money into managing them...its great we can hunt them, I like the liberal seasons but they need to focus on deer/elk management not turkeys. If they become a problem for a landowner give him a box of shells and call the foodbank :twocents: If turkey numbers decline substantially and sportsmen in the area want restrictions fine...no relocation or efforts by wdfw to re-establish or build numbers though...let NWTF pick up the tab if they want to do something for them.
We ARE seeing a substantial reductions in flocks and this is why Hunters are calling for restrictions. The NWTF( volunteers at least) did try and pick up the tab for re-establishment and re-location but the WDFW refused us on every angle. That is fact. The State hasn't the spine to put out a decent program for dealing with the farmers issues and did NOTHING to partner with anyone to try and work out any kind of resolution. They upped the liberal seasons especially the either sex fall hunts and will not take any advice on changing. Myself I think I will start putting in for those fall tags and then burn them. Couple bucks out of my pocket to help a hen make it to spring to breed again.
Post by: Nature Boy on May 10, 2014, 07:37:07 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on May 10, 2014, 10:15:46 AM
I don't see much of a problem with turkey management...and really I hope WDFW isn't putting much effort or money into managing them...its great we can hunt them, I like the liberal seasons but they need to focus on deer/elk management not turkeys. If they become a problem for a landowner give him a box of shells and call the foodbank :twocents: If turkey numbers decline substantially and sportsmen in the area want restrictions fine...no relocation or efforts by wdfw to re-establish or build numbers though...let NWTF pick up the tab if they want to do something for them.
NWTF doesn't have the authority nor the ability or willingness to trap and relocate birds in any state. They are simply the middle man reaping the financial benefits on the backs of volunteers. Fact.
Post by: Wacenturion on May 10, 2014, 10:26:15 AM
One big problem has been WDFW's Mick Cope ... he would talk to the NWTF State Board Of Directors (BOD), and even when the BOD stated that they didn't want the liberal seasons and bag limits, he would still go off by himself and have them implemented so he didn't have to deal with any landowner complaints ... plus it brought in more money to his department by doing so. He just doesn't care about the resource ... just about not having to listen to any complaints from landowners.
:bash:
Nail on the head, but then Al you and I were there to witness that horse crap. Just like I'm sure Wacent and Yelp saw that flippant attitude as well.
Try going higher as well..........hint, hint. Mick only takes marching orders. It wasn't too flippant when I managed the program as they couldn't stop efforts. Only when reorganization came along and they convinced the then newly appointed pinhead Director it needed to be back in Wildlife Management did the program turn south and stop.
Funny how that Director always used "best science" in his management hype. Yet when Wildlife Management took the program back they kept me as far away from the Commission and turkey issues as possible. I didn't exist. Yet I was the resident expert with 20 years of turkey experience and planned everything, and I mean everything, in that time period. When there was a turkey issue before the Commission, Mick Cope was giving the presentation and recommendations. In all fairness to Mick, he knew absolutely nothing about turkeys. :chuckle:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on May 10, 2014, 10:29:38 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on May 10, 2014, 10:48:55 AM
The whole issue comes down to this ...The landowner !! I never hunted fall turkeys in Washington ...Nothing gets me excited about turkey hunting more than hearing the birds in the spring ...They make some cool sounds in the fall but its all about gobblers for me ...Best thing to do is not support them by buying tags and do not go on a fall hunt ...just like everything else . they keep taking but there is no giving ...pretty sad I have not bought a license yet this year and for me to not get excited about hunting there is a serious problem .. I am tired of all their crap :yeah: :twocents: It was so much fun back in the 90s when a lot of chapters got started ...now it is joke ....give a little to make a lot !
Ding, Ding, we have a winner............ :tup:
Or if you do go on a fall hunt, especially with a kid, teach him the right way. Be patient and take a gobbler only. Teaches taking an individual bird rather than flock shooting. Even if the kid goes birdless, it teaches him or her what hunting is all about...being a responsible hunter and enjoying th resource. :twocents:
Post by: Tom Tamer on May 10, 2014, 12:54:19 PM
One big problem has been WDFW's Mick Cope ... he would talk to the NWTF State Board Of Directors (BOD), and even when the BOD stated that they didn't want the liberal seasons and bag limits, he would still go off by himself and have them implemented so he didn't have to deal with any landowner complaints ... plus it brought in more money to his department by doing so. He just doesn't care about the resource ... just about not having to listen to any complaints from landowners.
:bash:
Nail on the head, but then Al you and I were there to witness that horse crap. Just like I'm sure Wacent and Yelp saw that flippant attitude as well.
Try going higher as well..........hint, hint. Mick only takes marching orders. It wasn't too flippant when I managed the program as they couldn't stop efforts. Only when reorganization came along and they convinced the then newly appointed pinhead Director it needed to be back in Wildlife Management did the program turn south and stop.
Funny how that Director always used "best science" in his management hype. Yet when Wildlife Management took the program back they kept me as far away from the Commission and turkey issues as possible. I didn't exist. Yet I was the resident expert with 20 years of turkey experience and planned everything, and I mean everything, in that time period. When there was a turkey issue before the Commission, Mick Cope was giving the presentation and recommendations. In all fairness to Mick, he knew absolutely nothing about turkeys. :chuckle:
It wasn't meant toward you, I think you know that it was the era after, which is when I got involved, and correct Mick knew nothing about turkeys, Agreed the NWTF is nothing more than a middle man, but I was witness to a few times where volunteers had ideas on trap and transfers and they shot it down even when we had a viable answer, not enough money, OK we volunteer gas , rigs and man power, Nope! No one is certified to fire the rocket nets, we'll find someone, and a few of us volunteered to get qualified,NOPE! A DFW rep has to be present and we have no money, 1/3 of all turkey tag money by law goes to Turkeys ONLY, NOPE. That kind of stuff is how the WDFW played us.
Post by: Tom Tamer on May 10, 2014, 12:57:57 PM
The whole issue comes down to this ...The landowner !! I never hunted fall turkeys in Washington ...Nothing gets me excited about turkey hunting more than hearing the birds in the spring ...They make some cool sounds in the fall but its all about gobblers for me ...Best thing to do is not support them by buying tags and do not go on a fall hunt ...just like everything else . they keep taking but there is no giving ...pretty sad I have not bought a license yet this year and for me to not get excited about hunting there is a serious problem .. I am tired of all their crap :yeah: :twocents: It was so much fun back in the 90s when a lot of chapters got started ...now it is joke ....give a little to make a lot !
That is sad, I find myself in the same boat, here it is May10 and I am setting at home and not hunting, the amount of turkeys being seen in my area and well this crap weather it gets hard to go out after a sport I love so dearly. the DFW wants them gone completely so they don't have to hear about them pooping on someone's porch in the spring after they got fed corn all winter.
Post by: Wacenturion on May 10, 2014, 01:30:20 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on May 10, 2014, 01:54:16 PM
Sounds from what you are saying the state is dealing with the farmers problems...they made liberal fall seasons and flocks are declining. Problem solved. I realize there are great differences across the state, but where I'm at I see flocks of 100's in the fall and I usually take folks out so we can shoot several birds if we want and I don't really spring turkey hunt but working up on my place I hear turkeys gobbling every 5 minutes in the spring. So, I guess I'm just not seeing much of the problem you are. How do you propose keeping farmers happy AND restricting harvest/building flocks back up??I don't see much of a problem with turkey management...and really I hope WDFW isn't putting much effort or money into managing them...its great we can hunt them, I like the liberal seasons but they need to focus on deer/elk management not turkeys. If they become a problem for a landowner give him a box of shells and call the foodbank :twocents: If turkey numbers decline substantially and sportsmen in the area want restrictions fine...no relocation or efforts by wdfw to re-establish or build numbers though...let NWTF pick up the tab if they want to do something for them.
We ARE seeing a substantial reductions in flocks and this is why Hunters are calling for restrictions. The NWTF( volunteers at least) did try and pick up the tab for re-establishment and re-location but the WDFW refused us on every angle. That is fact. The State hasn't the spine to put out a decent program for dealing with the farmers issues and did NOTHING to partner with anyone to try and work out any kind of resolution. They upped the liberal seasons especially the either sex fall hunts and will not take any advice on changing. Myself I think I will start putting in for those fall tags and then burn them. Couple bucks out of my pocket to help a hen make it to spring to breed again.
Post by: drakebuster43 on May 10, 2014, 11:03:16 PM
Post by: 270Shooter on May 11, 2014, 12:08:55 AM
Post by: bearpaw on May 11, 2014, 12:18:39 AM
As turkey hunters what can we do to help? My hunting buddies and I have seen a decline for years now and would love to help change that. We should all ban together and get involved writing letters or calling whoever we need to. Might not help but atleast we can say we tried.
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Post by: Tom Tamer on May 13, 2014, 07:11:42 PM
As turkey hunters what can we do to help? My hunting buddies and I have seen a decline for years now and would love to help change that. We should all ban together and get involved writing letters or calling whoever we need to. Might not help but atleast we can say we tried.Just that make our voices heard, if you want to through the NWTF more power to you, my experience they don't care unless you help them bring in money, but once you ask them to help they blow you off, run you off or just plain ignore you. Not the volunteers mind you but the Org. And as Wacent and TD can probably agree with that is even back to the National Org. I went back a few years ago an championed, lobbied what have you to as many of the higher ups in the management I could and got no where. Our state President did as well and got no where. Partly because we don't account for enough money being put in on a national level to warrant help from them. Don't understand that thinking but that is what it is, and the WDFW will just blow them off too with all the suggestions and ways to help.
Idaho hunter, the problem is with the liberal tags and unwilling landowners, the problem birds AREN'T declining, the public land birds are and just like any species they go to safe zones, so we chase the ones on Public land down on to private no hunting areas and they stay there. And the landowner keeps complaining about bird issues but doesn't do what is required to curb the problem. Because the DFW blindly gives them depredation money because of bad regulations and some sort of guilt tri because of the non-native label. So these liberal tags are not doing what they intended to do. Also these bag limits were put into effect long before these recently established flocks had see a Harsh winter like that of 2008 and the few after that. If bag limits were left alone Mother nature would have taken care of the Over burden by itself.
Post by: bearpaw on May 13, 2014, 07:42:38 PM
Idaho hunter, the problem is with the liberal tags and unwilling landowners, the problem birds AREN'T declining, the public land birds are and just like any species they go to safe zones, so we chase the ones on Public land down on to private no hunting areas and they stay there. And the landowner keeps complaining about bird issues but doesn't do what is required to curb the problem. Because the DFW blindly gives them depredation money because of bad regulations and some sort of guilt tri because of the non-native label. So these liberal tags are not doing what they intended to do. Also these bag limits were put into effect long before these recently established flocks had see a Harsh winter like that of 2008 and the few after that. If bag limits were left alone Mother nature would have taken care of the Over burden by itself.
You hit the nail on the head. All this extra hunting is killing the birds that don't cause problems and encouraging more birds to move to the private lands. If they want to solve the problem I would suggest permits on the problem private lands only.
Post by: buckfvr on May 13, 2014, 07:54:42 PM
Some of these guys deal with it themselves. They dont want anyone on their property for any reason. ANd they dont want birds in their hay................
Post by: bearpaw on May 13, 2014, 08:15:53 PM
Does anyone know how many are killed in a hay barn when no one is looking ???????????????????????????
Some of these guys deal with it themselves. They dont want anyone on their property for any reason. ANd they dont want birds in their hay................
I don't see a problem with giving them tags to deal with it themselves so they don't have to have hunters come on their property. But it does no good to kill the birds on the Little Pend Orielle refuge because some guy has turkeys in his hay somewhere else. :dunno:
Post by: idahohuntr on May 13, 2014, 09:11:41 PM
I take hunters out and kill several birds per year in these liberal fall hunts. ALL on private land. Not all areas of the state are equal as I mentioned earlier and so I still am not seeing the problems you describe. Also, it is not difficult to find private land to hunt for turkeys in the fall in my area...any of the folks I know with private land and lots of turkeys aren't that picky about letting guys hunt fall turkey...they'd shoot you if they saw you deer hunting on their place though :chuckle:Idaho hunter, the problem is with the liberal tags and unwilling landowners, the problem birds AREN'T declining, the public land birds are and just like any species they go to safe zones, so we chase the ones on Public land down on to private no hunting areas and they stay there. And the landowner keeps complaining about bird issues but doesn't do what is required to curb the problem. Because the DFW blindly gives them depredation money because of bad regulations and some sort of guilt tri because of the non-native label. So these liberal tags are not doing what they intended to do. Also these bag limits were put into effect long before these recently established flocks had see a Harsh winter like that of 2008 and the few after that. If bag limits were left alone Mother nature would have taken care of the Over burden by itself.
You hit the nail on the head. All this extra hunting is killing the birds that don't cause problems and encouraging more birds to move to the private lands. If they want to solve the problem I would suggest permits on the problem private lands only.
Post by: huntnnw on May 13, 2014, 09:25:25 PM
Post by: PA BEN on May 16, 2014, 06:20:07 AM
Post by: turkeydancer on May 16, 2014, 08:04:21 AM
:bash:
While I don't advocate elimination of the fall seasons, I do advocate the targeting of the specific problem areas versus the current "shotgun" approach the WDFW has taken. I still hunt public lands (although I have several private farms I can and do hunt) ... this year there was very little sign in areas I have harvested several birds. This obviously does not help the farmers that do have a problem with "excess" birds. WDFW needs to target those areas of concern and not the entire populations everywhere.
Post by: Tom Tamer on May 20, 2014, 09:17:31 PM
Post by: turkeydancer on May 21, 2014, 06:58:09 AM
But wait a minute ... that would mean Mick and WDFW would have to really manage the resource ... :yike:
Post by: Dave Workman on May 21, 2014, 08:10:19 AM
]
Awesome man, it was meant to be insulting. I am a man of facts. I like to hear why or see proof. Hopefully you didn't take that as an insult, I am married to a biologist so I am on your side :chuckle: . My biggest concern these days is when hunting an animal that isn't a native species becomes more important than one that is. It doesn't matter if the animal is big or little, they all deserve a fair shake when it comes to their native habitat. I am by no means a hippy, and you can ask quite a few members who know me, but I do believe in conservation.
I believe you. And Wacenturion's response left me in stitches. (And how the hell else was he supposed to take it?)
Fact is, you can't hunt squirrels here. And trotting them out as a reason to talk curtailment of the turkey hunting opportunity is typical of the Washington Department of NO Fish and WATCHABLE Wildlife and the goobers who get all antsy in their spandex when hunting season rolls around.
Wacenturion is the guy who made the turkey hunting program here. He's the real deal.
"Conservation" is a term now too-often used by preservationists who want to limit opportunities, and would rather fly a desk and write studies than get out there and make sure we have 10,000 more elk, 50,000 more deer and maybe tens of thousands more turkeys, grouse, chukar, huns, pheasants, mountain goats, sheep and other huntable game species.
Not to mention a million steelhead and salmon and ten times ten times ten as many trout in the lakes and streams.
People who want to preserve something should buy an art museum. :chuckle:
Post by: Tom Tamer on May 22, 2014, 12:55:01 PM
]
Awesome man, it was meant to be insulting. I am a man of facts. I like to hear why or see proof. Hopefully you didn't take that as an insult, I am married to a biologist so I am on your side :chuckle: . My biggest concern these days is when hunting an animal that isn't a native species becomes more important than one that is. It doesn't matter if the animal is big or little, they all deserve a fair shake when it comes to their native habitat. I am by no means a hippy, and you can ask quite a few members who know me, but I do believe in conservation.
I believe you. And Wacenturion's response left me in stitches. (And how the hell else was he supposed to take it?)
Fact is, you can't hunt squirrels here. And trotting them out as a reason to talk curtailment of the turkey hunting opportunity is typical of the Washington Department of NO Fish and WATCHABLE Wildlife and the goobers who get all antsy in their spandex when hunting season rolls around.
Wacenturion is the guy who made the turkey hunting program here. He's the real deal.
"Conservation" is a term now too-often used by preservationists who want to limit opportunities, and would rather fly a desk and write studies than get out there and make sure we have 10,000 more elk, 50,000 more deer and maybe tens of thousands more turkeys, grouse, chukar, huns, pheasants, mountain goats, sheep and other huntable game species.
Not to mention a million steelhead and salmon and ten times ten times ten as many trout in the lakes and streams.
People who want to preserve something should buy an art museum. :chuckle:
AMEN Brother!
Post by: AspenBud on May 22, 2014, 03:06:53 PM
Turkeys do not compete with squirrels period. WDFW turkey haters just keep throwing that out there like spaghetti to see if it sticks to the wall and make it seem to the uniformed as though something terrible is happening. That question has been answered many times years ago.
Let's see now....if I recall squirrels live in trees. What is a turkey getting food wise that a squirrel is not? Good grief. :bash:
Oh really? Are you a biologist? State your facts, sources ?
I usually prefer to enjoy this forum just as a member, but since you have called me out so to speak, as a matter of fact, I am. As a sidenote to that, I also managed the Washington Wild Turkey Program for 20 years from 1987 till 2002, when I retired. That unfounded assertion and other equally stupid ones came up every time we wanted to expand opportunity statewide for turkeys during those years. No scientific data whatsoever to back it up, but hey, lets throw it out there and assume someone will believe it.
I'll leave it at that............
What about native grouse? Do turkeys compete with them?
That's one of those discussions that won't go away. However the Ruffed Grouse Society doesn't feel they have that much of an impact as their habitats don't really overlap. The problem is the RGS deals with Ruffed Grouse and not really any of the other grouse out there. They also aren't very active, compared to other parts of the country, in the Northwest so what may apply in say, Michigan, may not apply here. I don't know.... :dunno:
Post by: Tom Tamer on May 22, 2014, 09:22:46 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on May 22, 2014, 10:28:59 PM
Post by: KFhunter on May 22, 2014, 10:38:42 PM
They didn't even come in this winter and take the seeds off the trees they used to hit every winter, not sure what happened to them. None of my neighbors would kill them that I know of.
I planted oats this spring and when I make hay of it I'll leave the corners and some strips for wildlife and of course the fence lines. I would like a decent flock of turkeys...the dog keeps them out of the yard and off the deck, not too hard to abate turkey problems lol - just get a bird dog :chuckle:
I also would like to get some pheasant on the property.
Post by: returnofsid on May 23, 2014, 07:07:11 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on May 25, 2014, 09:20:02 AM
I don't know if Turkeys compete with Grouse or not. However, the last few weekends, in the NE corner, I've heard MANY grouse drumming, attempting to woo the opposite sex. All the while, in the same areas, I've seen and heard dozens upon dozens of turkeys.
To answer the question you have to frame it a certain way............
Have turkeys and grouse co-existed together historically in areas where they are native.....yes.
Any evidense of negative impacts by either species on the other.......probably not.
With all the wildlife reseach that has been done over the past 70 years, where is the evidence of negative competition with grouse or any other wildlife species for that matter? Does anyone really believe with all the turkey introductions into non-native states over the past 30 years or so that that question as well as others wasn't addressed? Common sense would then tell you that there must not have been any credibility to that question or others related to turkey competition with native species.
The only reason the question even comes up is because it is thrown out there by those who don't want turkeys for one reason or the other. Those folks will be asking the same questions over and over for years to come, as they don't like the answer.
Post by: buckfvr on May 25, 2014, 09:44:48 AM
I am sitting laughing to myself right now ...Like I said ..it is all about the landowners ..Most of the farmers and even landowners other than the farmers hate them ... ..Even if everyone decided not to participate in the fall hunt they would just come in and kill them themselves ...that's the problem ... :bdid:
That much I know for sure...................and waste them.