Post by: Johnb317 on May 03, 2014, 09:02:25 AM
Since Beman doesn't make my arrows anymore I'm re-evaluating arrows and fletching.
I shoot a hoyt carbon element at 68lbs, 28" draw, w 100gr broadhead.
So, do four fletches really make an appreciable difference as far as stabilizing etc?
Post by: buckfvr on May 03, 2014, 09:13:28 AM
Post by: Band on May 04, 2014, 09:47:22 PM
Post by: MLBowhunting on May 04, 2014, 10:32:37 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on May 05, 2014, 06:10:08 AM
Post by: coachcw on May 05, 2014, 06:23:38 AM
Post by: RadSav on May 05, 2014, 06:41:58 AM
So, do four fletches really make an appreciable difference as far as stabilizing etc?
Not at normal bowhunting distances. They do stabilize better (assuming proper FOC is used) during the transition period at the apex of the parabolic curve. But, that's way beyond the average bowhunting range. Heavy broadheads and extremely wide broadheads do see some advantages to 4 fletch at average ranges when shooting 2" vanes. You do have to be careful about FOC if running four fletch and wraps with a 100 grain broadhead.
I shot four fletch a lot during the 80's and then again for about ten years after the Blazer came out. I liked it! But, I went through a stretch of shooting poorly and changed back to my lucky colors when I made a conscious "Back To Basics" effort. Ended up shooting better than ever so I figured why mess with lucky colors :chuckle:
Back when I was in the Seattle area the Nock Point was passionate about lining broadheads up with the fletching. And now that they are Cuckoo for Slick Trick CocoPuffs it makes sense they would start going 4 fletch. Unless you are trying to shoot the GrizTrick it doesn't really make any difference at all. In fact for most peoples FOC with 100 grain broadheads 3 fletch would have the advantage.
Post by: coachcw on May 05, 2014, 06:54:08 AM
Post by: RadSav on May 05, 2014, 06:58:11 AM
Post by: Rider on May 05, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
Quote
Back when I was in the Seattle area the Nock Point was passionate about lining broadheads up with the fletching.
Hey RedSav,
The Master Hunter that taught my bow hunters ed field day made the same assertion. No one at Nock Point even mentioned that. Is there anything to it?
Post by: RadSav on May 05, 2014, 02:24:46 PM
Post by: Johnb317 on May 05, 2014, 10:45:48 PM
Also looking at the ce mayhem arrows, way pricey but they seem to be the closest to the 10gpi beemans.
Thanks. Next is to get your broadheads
Post by: RadSav on May 06, 2014, 12:05:47 AM
Been shooting full helical through the wb, would you suggest straight, 2 degree offset per Buckfvr?
Also looking at the ce mayhem arrows, way pricey but they seem to be the closest to the 10gpi beemans.
I never ever ever suggest straight fletch!!!
I do not see anything wrong with 2 degree, just not our cup of tea. The wife shoots four fletch Blazers full helical through the hairy hole. Never a problem! I'm not sure what degree it is as I've never put it on a comparator. It's as far as the Bitzenberger will allow with a helical clamp. If she were going to shoot a 4" vane maybe I would change that. But, I'd probably have her shoot a different rest before having her shoot a minor offset. I mark the top of the nock so she has the spine aligned on every first shot. She likes four fletch so she never has to look after the first shot or can't see in a dark blind on a sunny WY day.
I've spine tested and fletched hundreds upon hundreds of Carbon Express arrows. I can only think of four shafts that I have weeded out as seconds. For comparison, I usually kick out four in every dozen Easton or Beman all carbon shafts. For years after everyone else had switched to all carbon I refused to shoot them. It wasn't until I found Carbon Tech and Carbon Express that changed. You won't regret getting the Mayhem :tup:
I assume you are talking about the Beman MFX Realtree shafts being discontinued? They still make the Axis Realtree which is basically the same arrow. One supposedly used nano tube technology and the other didn't :dunno: From what I saw shooting them side by side I think that's 99% marketing pooh poop. Rip that stupid HUGE Easton crap wrap off the new Axis and shoot that shaft if you don't want to change. .1 grain difference is 3 grains in a 30" shaft. That's less than 1% and probably less than the variance you get arrow to arrow between fletching glue and insert glue.
Not sure if this is true (I can find out from my Easton Insider for sure if you wish)- but I heard at one point in time the Beman was made in France and the Easton was made in the USA. Same process just different fibers. And that now they are made in the same place. Sounds about right to me, but it is just hearsay at this moment.
Post by: Hornseeker on May 07, 2014, 03:06:15 PM
Also, you are using a helical clamp on little blazers? Does it do anything really that a straight clamp doesn't do on that short a vane? Just curious. I have always used straight clamp for my vanes, but use helical for feathers...
???
Thanks
Post by: RadSav on May 07, 2014, 05:44:00 PM
So the CE shafts are good and straight eh Rad? Hmmm. You dont shoot Easton for that reason?
Also, you are using a helical clamp on little blazers? Does it do anything really that a straight clamp doesn't do on that short a vane? Just curious. I have always used straight clamp for my vanes, but use helical for feathers...???
Biggest reason I do not shoot the Easton All-Carbon is consistency. 360 degree spine consistency, straightness consistency, and often times circumference consistency. Easton does have without question the best components like nocks, inserts and bushings. And I really like the A/C/C when I desire a little bit heavier arrow. Just think that in all carbon arrows there are better options out there. Like Carbon Express!
Of course you can not get a whole lot of helical on a short vane and profile like a Blazer. But what you can do with a helical clamp that you can not with a straight clamp is more offset. Straight clamps can't accommodate the curvature of the arrow shaft like a helical clamp can. So not only do you get better vane to shaft contact you also get a bit more offset with the helical clamp. Of course if three fletch is your desire neither clamp will give you as much as does the Bohning Helix jig or the Helix tower.
I use a helical clamp for everything. The only reason I have straight clamps around here is the make cleaning vane bases easier. They have not touched an arrow shaft or the Bitz jig since I tested the very first Blazers. Gosh I think that's probably been 15 - 20 years ago.
Post by: Greg Mullins on May 07, 2014, 06:12:44 PM
Post by: Jellymon on May 07, 2014, 06:21:48 PM
Post by: scottcrb on May 07, 2014, 06:27:12 PM
Post by: RadSav on May 07, 2014, 10:38:51 PM
Hey RAD. When are you teaching that archery seminar? :chuckle: so many questions that need answers :dunno:
No one wants to listen to me talk. And even fewer want to watch me on video. Born with a face for radio and a voice for silent film. That's why I have embraced this site. Ask a way - If I don't know the answer :dunno: Maybe I'll make something up :chuckle:
Post by: Hornseeker on May 08, 2014, 06:08:17 AM
:bash:
Post by: JLS on May 08, 2014, 06:12:05 AM
Hey Rad, you should put a pic of one of your arrows fletched as above, just so I can see how much you are putting on there... I have been fletching my own for 11 yrs and have never put helical or offset on my vanes!! ugh... always on my feathers... I always felt like compounds were so much easier to get the tune just right, plus the release is so clean, that there was no need to use the offset or heli...
:bash:
It's pretty easy with a Bitz.
The offset will make the arrows spin faster, and thus stabilize faster and better when you attach a broadhead to them.
Post by: Hornseeker on May 08, 2014, 09:27:31 AM
All i've used for fletching is a Bitz... probably never switch...
Post by: et1702 on May 08, 2014, 09:41:34 AM
Been shooting compounds going on 36 years this year. As Rad indicated, I too use a helical clamp, plus offset to do my fletching. Always used 3-fletch until last year. Tried 4 fletch and I like it. But, I also shoot a 150gr two-blade BH and about 18% FOC. I'm also one of those long-armed guys shooting 31.5" draw length and 68 to 70lbs draw weight.
ET
Post by: Hornseeker on May 08, 2014, 09:47:27 AM
Thanks for the response.
I wouldn't mind setting up a good heavy and high FOC rig... thats how I shoot my trad bows...which 150 you shooting?
Post by: et1702 on May 08, 2014, 10:36:14 AM
How long ya been in Duvall et? Lived there from 74-89.
Thanks for the response.
I wouldn't mind setting up a good heavy and high FOC rig... thats how I shoot my trad bows...which 150 you shooting?
Been in WA since December 1992 and Duvall since Sept. 2003. I am shooting the AK BH's Masai & Samurai models in 150gr weight. I also shoot Strickland Archery's Helix 150gr BHs. All of them are quality BHs and all the deer and elk I've shot w/them drop fast. FYI, the entry holes are much bigger than anticipated for a typical two-blade, as all three of the models I mentioned have right-wing beveled edges. They really do seem to continue to rotate as they penetrate. I've also broke elk rib bones on both sides of the animal with complete pass thru's every time. Most of the animals I've shot w/them ahve dropped within 40 to 60 yards, max. and all of them have dropped within hearing distance (i.e., big crash when elk drops FOR THE LAST TIME). I've also used the Magnus two blades, G5 stryker and Slick trick's in 125 gr models w/brass inserts in my arrows and/or extra brass weights behind the inserts. Out of the last three BH's mentioned, the only one I don't like is the Slick Trick. I know lots of people do, but I've never had good performance from them. Another good two-blade w/bleeders is S&S Archery's 125gr BH. The New Mex. bull in my avatar dropped to this BH in Sept 2012.
BTW, if you lived in Duvall between 74 and 89, you probably know a couple of my good hunting buddies. Do you know or remember the Maxwell's? Tom and Sandy, or their son Scott. Scott is one of my best friends and hunting partners. How about Paul Watkins? Another good friend and hunting partner. Or, depending on how old you are, maybe you know Gary Sheldon?
If you want any help w/your setup, just let me know.
ET
Post by: Hornseeker on May 08, 2014, 12:05:34 PM
Thanks for the broadhead info. I've shot Grizzlies and ABowyers for a while now out of my longbows... love them. And yeah, they do keep rotating as they pass through animal, paper, foam...whatever.
Take Care!
Post by: RadSav on May 08, 2014, 02:09:08 PM
I always felt like compounds were so much easier to get the tune just right, plus the release is so clean, that there was no need to use the offset or heli...
The physics of arrow flight are the same regardless of what bow they come out of ;) Sort of like NFL quarterbacks. Doesn't matter who is throwing the ball, if it's not rotating on it's axis it probably looks like a lame duck.
If I find the time I will try to get a picture or two. But, Jelly's looks about as good as you will ever need!
Post by: Hornseeker on May 08, 2014, 02:13:37 PM
You do understand what im saying... an arrow coming off a center shot adjustable rest... released from a mechanical set of jaws... is easier to get to fly nicely than an arrow released with fingers off a shelf that is 3/16 out of center... i always strive to get the perfect arrow/head combo for my longbow to get great flight... but when that far outta center and even a "clean" finger release introducing a huge amount of lateral torque... its nice to have 4 inch feathers... 4 of them... with a good helical and offset!
When I am shooting good... I can group bare shafts at any yardage with my fletched shafts... but insurance is still nice!
Thanks all!
Post by: RadSav on May 08, 2014, 02:46:41 PM
Another visual that might help;
Ever try and stay upright on a bicycle that is stationary? It takes incredible balance and constant adjustment if the wheels are not turning. Forward momentum has little to do with how easy it is to remain upright once the bicycle is in motion. It's the gyro stabilizing effect of the wheels and tires well balanced and rotating on their axis that creates the stability. Same basic principle applies to an arrow (or football) in flight.
Post by: 4fletch on May 08, 2014, 07:43:58 PM