Post by: bearpaw on May 04, 2014, 09:02:59 AM
TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. April 30, 2014 (AP)
Isle Royale National Park's inbred gray wolf population remains dangerously low for a third consecutive year, while the moose on which they feed have doubled during the same period — trends that could lead to long-term problems for the Lake Superior archipelago's ecosystems, scientists said Wednesday.
Only nine wolves roamed the park this winter — one more than the eight recorded last year, which was the lowest total since wildlife biologists began observing the relationship between Isle Royale wolves and moose in the late 1950s. The study is the world's longest of a predator-prey relationship in a closed ecosystem.
"The wolves are struggling," said Rolf Peterson, a research professor with Michigan Technological University and co-director of the study. "There's definitely a chance they might not last much longer."
Meanwhile, the moose population rose to about 1,050, according to a report by Peterson and co-director John Vucetich obtained by The Associated Press ahead of its scheduled release. That is a sharp jump from the 515 counted in 2011.
more: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/apnewsbreak-isle-royale-wolf-decline-boosts-moose-23536484 (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/apnewsbreak-isle-royale-wolf-decline-boosts-moose-23536484)
Post by: AspenBud on May 04, 2014, 10:23:03 AM
Post by: bearpaw on May 04, 2014, 10:31:28 AM
Post by: snowpack on May 04, 2014, 10:49:04 AM
That area has been a case study for years. The moose and wolf populations have fluctuated and neither has disappeared. So much for the predator pit.Yup. And I don't think I've ever seen where they even got close to any kind of steady-state 'balance'. It has been up-down-up-down. A few years ago they were really worried about the moose--wolves killed too many calves and the herd was aging--approaching a collapse.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on May 04, 2014, 10:52:10 AM
And I don't think I've ever seen where they even got close to any kind of steady-state 'balance'. It has been up-down-up-down. A few years ago they were really worried about the moose--wolves killed too many calves and the herd was aging--approaching a collapse.
I think Malthusian behavior is typical of both populations
Post by: pd on May 04, 2014, 10:54:22 AM
On the other hand, maybe the wolves in the park took this opportunity to get out of the isolated island?
Post by: snowpack on May 04, 2014, 11:18:10 AM
Post by: wolfbait on May 04, 2014, 04:56:38 PM
Post by: AspenBud on May 05, 2014, 08:29:15 AM
I heard that pd. They had record (near record ?) ice formation on the Great Lakes this year. Half was still frozen in late April allowing wolves to move around. They had at least one leave the island and it died on the mainland.
The bigger concern will be how many potentially crossed the ice into the lower peninsula. The out of control white tail population there would feed a big wolf population.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on May 05, 2014, 08:58:34 AM
I heard that pd. They had record (near record ?) ice formation on the Great Lakes this year. Half was still frozen in late April allowing wolves to move around. They had at least one leave the island and it died on the mainland.
The bigger concern will be how many potentially crossed the ice into the lower peninsula. The out of control white tail population there would feed a big wolf population.
Do those people believe the WT populations are out of control Aspen, or is this your opinion?
Post by: Bean Counter on May 05, 2014, 09:07:38 AM
And I don't think I've ever seen where they even got close to any kind of steady-state 'balance'. It has been up-down-up-down. A few years ago they were really worried about the moose--wolves killed too many calves and the herd was aging--approaching a collapse.
I think Malthusian behavior is typical of both populations
More interdependent... like yin and yang.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstevenmilstein.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F06%2Fyin-yang-150x150.png&hash=d9c8d642b0a97312bc14c735e408ff5238465b51)
Post by: AspenBud on May 05, 2014, 02:29:00 PM
I heard that pd. They had record (near record ?) ice formation on the Great Lakes this year. Half was still frozen in late April allowing wolves to move around. They had at least one leave the island and it died on the mainland.
The bigger concern will be how many potentially crossed the ice into the lower peninsula. The out of control white tail population there would feed a big wolf population.
Do those people believe the WT populations are out of control Aspen, or is this your opinion?
If you go deer hunting in the lower peninsula of Michigan and don't put at least one into the freezer (play the seasons and tags right and you can take home at least five) you either are a compete newb, don't know what you're doing, or aren't trying very hard. They were even allowing deer with spots to get shot back in 2011 during the early season. Washington is a deer desert by comparison.
The state has one of the largest deer populations in the country. Seriously, the DNR has had virtually unlimited doe tags available there for years and they still have plenty.
The UP is an entirely different story, though even that is relative. Different habitat, different agriculture, lots more wolves.
Post by: wolfbait on May 06, 2014, 07:57:10 AM
I heard that pd. They had record (near record ?) ice formation on the Great Lakes this year. Half was still frozen in late April allowing wolves to move around. They had at least one leave the island and it died on the mainland.
The bigger concern will be how many potentially crossed the ice into the lower peninsula. The out of control white tail population there would feed a big wolf population.
Do those people believe the WT populations are out of control Aspen, or is this your opinion?
If you go deer hunting in the lower peninsula of Michigan and don't put at least one into the freezer (play the seasons and tags right and you can take home at least five) you either are a compete newb, don't know what you're doing, or aren't trying very hard. They were even allowing deer with spots to get shot back in 2011 during the early season. Washington is a deer desert by comparison.
The state has one of the largest deer populations in the country. Seriously, the DNR has had virtually unlimited doe tags available there for years and they still have plenty.
The UP is an entirely different story, though even that is relative. Different habitat, different agriculture, lots more wolves.
Maybe Michigan DNR needs WDFW to manage their deer etc. for a few years. You know protect predators and dump wolves all over the state.
Post by: AspenBud on May 06, 2014, 08:40:07 AM
I heard that pd. They had record (near record ?) ice formation on the Great Lakes this year. Half was still frozen in late April allowing wolves to move around. They had at least one leave the island and it died on the mainland.
The bigger concern will be how many potentially crossed the ice into the lower peninsula. The out of control white tail population there would feed a big wolf population.
Do those people believe the WT populations are out of control Aspen, or is this your opinion?
If you go deer hunting in the lower peninsula of Michigan and don't put at least one into the freezer (play the seasons and tags right and you can take home at least five) you either are a compete newb, don't know what you're doing, or aren't trying very hard. They were even allowing deer with spots to get shot back in 2011 during the early season. Washington is a deer desert by comparison.
The state has one of the largest deer populations in the country. Seriously, the DNR has had virtually unlimited doe tags available there for years and they still have plenty.
The UP is an entirely different story, though even that is relative. Different habitat, different agriculture, lots more wolves.
Maybe Michigan DNR needs WDFW to manage their deer etc. for a few years. You know protect predators and dump wolves all over the state.
Last I read they were close to reaching their target population. I'm sure this last winter helped out.
Michigan arguably manages their resources better than Washington. Though with the most public forest land in the lower 48 there is hot debate on whether they do enough tree cutting. The line for good grouse hunting out there keeps moving north which indicates degrading habitat.
I think if you talk with the bio's there they would argue for the wolf hunt and right to defend animals and people from wolves. By keeping them under the ESA the government was undermining wolf recovery by creating a lot of resentment and unnecessary fear. People don't want them gone there, they want them managed. The bright side is they don't waste a lot of time thinking wolves were some government conspiracy or worrying about land grabs, they get things done. The bad side is there is a lot of out of state money from California coming in trying to prevent wolf management there.
But Michigan has a culture built on hunting. You can throw a rock and hit a hunter there. Not so in Washington.
Post by: villageidiot on May 08, 2014, 10:17:24 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on May 09, 2014, 12:44:42 AM
In spite of a harsh winter the moose population has doubled in the last three years since the wolf population declined.
It's likely that without a recovery of the wolf population, the moose herd will continue growing until it reaches a point where it damages it's food supply to the point that the herd crashes for many years. Sort of like the Lolo elk herd.
The scientists studying the Isle Royale wolves and moose agree and believe that within 5 years, if there isn't a recovery of the wolves or a series of bad winters to knock the moose herd down, the moose herd will cause severe and lasting damage to the forest and crash as a result.
Page 15 of 20
http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/sites/default/files/annual-report-pdf/wolf%20moose%20annual%20report%202014%20-%20color%20for%20web.pdf (http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/sites/default/files/annual-report-pdf/wolf%20moose%20annual%20report%202014%20-%20color%20for%20web.pdf)
Post by: timberfaller on May 09, 2014, 09:08:44 AM
:tup: to the villageidiot :tup:
Post by: wolfbait on May 09, 2014, 07:32:35 PM
In spite of a harsh winter the moose population has doubled in the last three years since the wolf population declined.
It's likely that without a recovery of the wolf population, the moose herd will continue growing until it reaches a point where it damages it's food supply to the point that the herd crashes for many years. Sort of like the Lolo elk herd.
The scientists studying the Isle Royale wolves and moose agree and believe that within 5 years, if there isn't a recovery of the wolves or a series of bad winters to knock the moose herd down, the moose herd will cause severe and lasting damage to the forest and crash as a result.
Page 15 of 20
http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/sites/default/files/annual-report-pdf/wolf%20moose%20annual%20report%202014%20-%20color%20for%20web.pdf (http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/sites/default/files/annual-report-pdf/wolf%20moose%20annual%20report%202014%20-%20color%20for%20web.pdf)
A few moose tags and problem solved! Or they can continue to do the up and down, wolves kill moose off, and then starve, moose recover, wolves recover and kill moose off again. And this was what the fraud Mech based his, the wolf balancing the ecosystem theory on. Wolves don't balance anything they just slaughter on. But as we know the environmentalist, USFW, and WDFW fail to recognize the fraud, instead they continue to spew the same lies.
Post by: bearpaw on May 09, 2014, 08:54:47 PM
In spite of a harsh winter the moose population has doubled in the last three years since the wolf population declined.
It's likely that without a recovery of the wolf population, the moose herd will continue growing until it reaches a point where it damages it's food supply to the point that the herd crashes for many years. Sort of like the Lolo elk herd.
The scientists studying the Isle Royale wolves and moose agree and believe that within 5 years, if there isn't a recovery of the wolves or a series of bad winters to knock the moose herd down, the moose herd will cause severe and lasting damage to the forest and crash as a result.
Page 15 of 20
http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/sites/default/files/annual-report-pdf/wolf%20moose%20annual%20report%202014%20-%20color%20for%20web.pdf (http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/sites/default/files/annual-report-pdf/wolf%20moose%20annual%20report%202014%20-%20color%20for%20web.pdf)
Not sure where you missed it, but that's what hunting is for, removing excess animals from a herd and keeping herd numbers stable over the long term. Problem Solved! :tup:
Post by: jackelope on June 08, 2017, 08:07:20 AM
http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/sites/default/files/annual-report-pdf/Annual%20Report%202016-2017_0.pdf
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on June 08, 2017, 08:17:18 AM
In spite of a harsh winter the moose population has doubled in the last three years since the wolf population declined.
It's likely that without a recovery of the wolf population, the moose herd will continue growing until it reaches a point where it damages it's food supply to the point that the herd crashes for many years. Sort of like the Lolo elk herd.
The scientists studying the Isle Royale wolves and moose agree and believe that within 5 years, if there isn't a recovery of the wolves or a series of bad winters to knock the moose herd down, the moose herd will cause severe and lasting damage to the forest and crash as a result.
Page 15 of 20
http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/sites/default/files/annual-report-pdf/wolf%20moose%20annual%20report%202014%20-%20color%20for%20web.pdf (http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/sites/default/files/annual-report-pdf/wolf%20moose%20annual%20report%202014%20-%20color%20for%20web.pdf)
I've never unstood your thought process. Maybe back in the day would this be valid, we now have sound management practices to manage populations, I'm betting folks wouldn't mind having a few more moose tags to keep the overbrousing under control.... carry on
Post by: Bob33 on June 08, 2017, 08:19:09 AM
Post by: jackelope on June 08, 2017, 08:21:00 AM
It's like one affects the other almost directly.
Post by: CP on June 08, 2017, 08:29:36 AM
In spite of a harsh winter the moose population has doubled in the last three years since the wolf population declined.
It's likely that without a recovery of the wolf population, the moose herd will continue growing until it reaches a point where it damages it's food supply to the point that the herd crashes for many years. Sort of like the Lolo elk herd.
The scientists studying the Isle Royale wolves and moose agree and believe that within 5 years, if there isn't a recovery of the wolves or a series of bad winters to knock the moose herd down, the moose herd will cause severe and lasting damage to the forest and crash as a result.
Page 15 of 20
http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/sites/default/files/annual-report-pdf/wolf%20moose%20annual%20report%202014%20-%20color%20for%20web.pdf (http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/sites/default/files/annual-report-pdf/wolf%20moose%20annual%20report%202014%20-%20color%20for%20web.pdf)
I've never unstood your thought process. Maybe back in the day would this be valid, we now have sound management practices to manage populations, I'm betting folks wouldn't mind having a few more moose tags to keep the overbrousing under control.... carry on
Isle Royale is an national park, no hunting allowed. I’m curious as to how they plan to control over population of the moose with the wolves gone.
Post by: boneaddict on June 08, 2017, 08:31:42 AM
Post by: jackelope on June 08, 2017, 08:46:55 AM
In spite of a harsh winter the moose population has doubled in the last three years since the wolf population declined.
It's likely that without a recovery of the wolf population, the moose herd will continue growing until it reaches a point where it damages it's food supply to the point that the herd crashes for many years. Sort of like the Lolo elk herd.
The scientists studying the Isle Royale wolves and moose agree and believe that within 5 years, if there isn't a recovery of the wolves or a series of bad winters to knock the moose herd down, the moose herd will cause severe and lasting damage to the forest and crash as a result.
Page 15 of 20
http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/sites/default/files/annual-report-pdf/wolf%20moose%20annual%20report%202014%20-%20color%20for%20web.pdf (http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/sites/default/files/annual-report-pdf/wolf%20moose%20annual%20report%202014%20-%20color%20for%20web.pdf)
I've never unstood your thought process. Maybe back in the day would this be valid, we now have sound management practices to manage populations, I'm betting folks wouldn't mind having a few more moose tags to keep the overbrousing under control.... carry on
Isle Royale is an national park, no hunting allowed. I’m curious as to how they plan to control over population of the moose with the wolves gone.
The whole island is treated as an ongoing study. The moose were there before the wolves. Wolves have only been there since the 1950's when they crossed on the frozen lake.
http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/overview/overview/at_a_glance.html
Post by: Bob33 on June 08, 2017, 08:51:35 AM
https://www.nrahlf.org/articles/2016/4/27/dispelling-the-myth-about-no-hunting-on-national-parks/
Post by: CP on June 08, 2017, 08:57:56 AM
Post by: boneaddict on June 08, 2017, 09:00:04 AM
Controlled hunting is the best solution, and not entirely unprecedented.
https://www.nrahlf.org/articles/2016/4/27/dispelling-the-myth-about-no-hunting-on-national-parks/
I think it would be similiar to Antelope island