Post by: AWS on May 23, 2014, 04:02:42 PM
What constitutes a brush gun? In my opinion a rifle for hunting heavy cover either still hunting or tracking game, sitting on a stand is something different. In order of importance to me.
1. A bullet that will reach the vitals from any direction and exit. A lot of the shots are taken at angle or partially hidden game and even at a well placed shot game can travel some distance and with an exit wound a good blood trail will be easy to follow.
2. Reasonably light weight, something that can be carried at the ready for long periods of time. It isn’t written in stone that a brush gun should be under 7 lbs.. If your 20 6”6” and weigh 250 lb your idea for light weight rifle is, something under seven might be too light and you can over power it. For me at 5’7” and closing in on 70 the lighter the better.
3. Fast handling, in the brush you don’t have time to be searching for sights or lifting your head to see through the scope. I like a rifle fitted to me that when I throw it to my shoulder my cheek is solid on the stock and my eye is lined up. It is good when I can throw the gun to my shoulder with my eyes close and open them and have the sights or scope perfectly line up. I have to shorten stocks, build up combs and mount scopes very low, sometimes even going to straight tube scopes to get them low enough. I’ve never had a problem with 20mm scope not transmitting enough light, if I can see the game in the brush with my bare eyes I have enough light to use a straight tube scope.
So what are some of my favorite cartridges for a brush gun, I like medium bore cartridges from 7mm to 375. I want heavy for the cal. bullets and am partial to RN’s. I also want a cartridge that will reach out a couple of hundred yards. It has been my experience to have deer that I’m tracking cross big openings and stand on the far side and wait to see what is following them. Rounds that have worked for me 7x57mm and 7mm Rem Mag 175gr RN’s, the thirties 300 Sav., 30-40 Krag, 308 Win with 180gr RN and the 30-06 with 220gr RN’s, 358 Win and 35 Whelen and 375 Win.
Rifles, a neat little 1917 Enfield 30-07 that was chopped , cut ground and drilled to turn it into a lightweight carbine, Savage 99’s in 300 Sav.-308 Win-375 Win, a Win Model 70 lightweight in 7mm Mag and a Rem 721 in 35 Whelen.
If I were going to build a new brush gun it would be a Rem Model 7, 20” light contour 358 Win barrel with a Mannlicher stock and a Leupold VX-2 1x4x20mm scope with German #4 ret. That said I have a Rem 760 in 35 Rem sitting in a safe in WI waiting to go to Ahlman’s to be turned into a 358 Win Carbine with the same Leupold scope.
Post by: RG on May 23, 2014, 04:31:38 PM
You are absolutely right about light short and handy. Snap shots at game crossing openings are the norm in the brush.
Post by: Bigshooter on May 23, 2014, 04:41:19 PM
Post by: slaymaker3 on May 23, 2014, 05:19:45 PM
Post by: AWS on May 23, 2014, 08:03:44 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on May 23, 2014, 08:13:06 PM
set a vortex viper HS 2.5-10 on top and im ready!
I don't mind the weight and want something that has some serious power to take advantage of less than perfect shots. I am very comfortable with bolt guns so that is what I want to use all the time. with practice they are very fast for follow up shots and rechambering without lowering the gun.
I want the biggest bullet I can get in the brush!
Post by: RadSav on May 23, 2014, 08:59:15 PM
Next gun would probably the 358 Win in a model 88 Winchester. I have an 88 action here just waiting for retirement so I can make a build. Haven't decided if it's getting a 358 barrel or a 338 Federal barrel.
Post by: Biggerhammer on May 23, 2014, 08:59:16 PM
If I were to build one it would be on a Rem700 action, 20" barrel and of course a Sako extractor. :tup: lightest barrel I could get away with in a Mtn rifle stock.
Post by: HawkCreek on May 23, 2014, 10:06:53 PM
My idea of brush guns, and open range guns. It's a well rounded package for me.
Post by: brush hunter on May 24, 2014, 05:53:28 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on May 24, 2014, 06:36:08 PM
my choice is the BFR 45/70 10"bbl
Mine in 460 when I get it.............
Post by: RG on May 24, 2014, 08:09:17 PM
Post by: RadSav on May 24, 2014, 09:38:31 PM
I'm very comfortable and fast with a bolt rifle. My idea of the perfect factory brush rifle would be the Sako 85 "Black Bear" chambered in 9.3x62, shooting the CEB tipped 210gr ESP raptors. It would jam up anything on the planet in that combo. Especially in close! :tup:
Good friend of mine has the CZ550 carbine in that round. Tack driving SOB! 20.5" barrel, quick handling and comfortable to shoot. I was unfamiliar with the round, but he swears it's been much better than the 35 Whelen he had before. He's been waiting for a spring bear tag so he can prove it on an animal since he is an archery elk hunter. I was surprised at how much nicer it was to shoot than my 325WSM. And I expect bullets are probably easier to find!
Post by: yorketransport on May 24, 2014, 09:46:26 PM
Andrew
Post by: Jim the Plumber on May 25, 2014, 12:58:46 AM
Compact, semi auto for very fast follow ups. Sufficient chambering to handle anything in the PNW brush.
Topped with my NF 2.5-10X32 takes care of the sighting method.
http://www.ruger.com/products/sr762/models.html (http://www.ruger.com/products/sr762/models.html)
Post by: rasbo on May 25, 2014, 04:20:08 AM
Post by: Bigshooter on May 25, 2014, 01:14:48 PM
Most on this forum are too young to remember Elmer Keith but he was the master of brush guns. He hunted in Idaho with a friend of mine, outfitter Erv Malnarich. Ervin told me Elmer didnt hunt with a rifle smaller than .40 cal.
Everyone that hunts or shoots should know who Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor are.
Post by: RG on May 25, 2014, 04:23:55 PM
I think you have to be an old guy to remember them. I read every story O'Connor wrote.Most on this forum are too young to remember Elmer Keith but he was the master of brush guns. He hunted in Idaho with a friend of mine, outfitter Erv Malnarich. Ervin told me Elmer didnt hunt with a rifle smaller than .40 cal.
Everyone that hunts or shoots should know who Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor are.
Post by: yorketransport on May 25, 2014, 09:14:58 PM
:yeah:Most on this forum are too young to remember Elmer Keith but he was the master of brush guns. He hunted in Idaho with a friend of mine, outfitter Erv Malnarich. Ervin told me Elmer didnt hunt with a rifle smaller than .40 cal.
Everyone that hunts or shoots should know who Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor are.
Every time I look at a 44 mag I think of Elmer Keith. Every time I make fun of the 270 I think of Jack O'Connor. :chuckle:
Andrew
Post by: MarkyMark on May 25, 2014, 10:08:34 PM
One more vote for the BLR in .358 Winchester
Post by: 6.8mmARHunter on June 05, 2014, 01:01:50 AM
It's currently an AR-15, 16" barrel, 6.8mm SPC, Aimpoint M4s 1X RedDot optic.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi632.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu48%2Fsamckernan%2FIMAG3248_zpsa30d40d5.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=838fbceb02dc56b7620397d5f7577822f95f2b07) (http://s632.photobucket.com/user/samckernan/media/IMAG3248_zpsa30d40d5.jpg.html)
I'm going to change it up a bit over the next week or so. I've just received a new barrel today. A 16", .458 SOCOM barrel from Black Hole Weaponry. Going to swap out the 6.8mm SPC for the .458 SOCOM.
It's light, quick to point, and follow up shots are right there... For scale, the top cartridge is the .458 SOCOM, the center cartridge is the 6.8mm SPC, and the lower cartridge is the 5.56 NATO. The bullets are (l - r) Remington .277 (6.8mm) - 115 gr, Speer .458 - 400 grain JSP, and Barnes .458 - 350 grain TSX.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi632.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu48%2Fsamckernan%2FIMAG3290_zps4a5bf9fb.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=e437400b607ecc5df9e14d6047060b065f736607) (http://s632.photobucket.com/user/samckernan/media/IMAG3290_zps4a5bf9fb.jpg.html)
sam
Post by: RadSav on June 05, 2014, 01:28:07 AM
My brush gun:
I'm going to change it up a bit over the next week or so. I've just received a new barrel today. A 16", .458 SOCOM barrel from Black Hole Weaponry. Going to swap out the 6.8mm SPC for the .458 SOCOM.
OP mentioned wanting a gun that would reach out a couple hundred yards. What do the 200 yard ballistics look like on that SOCOM? Any reports of feed issues with that rebated rim? Sure looks like a lot of fun!
Post by: Fl0und3rz on June 05, 2014, 02:08:23 AM
My brush gun:
I'm going to change it up a bit over the next week or so. I've just received a new barrel today. A 16", .458 SOCOM barrel from Black Hole Weaponry. Going to swap out the 6.8mm SPC for the .458 SOCOM.
What do the 200 yard ballistics look like on that SOCOM?
Kind of like a 45-70.
Post by: 6.8mmARHunter on June 05, 2014, 08:18:38 AM
I hadn't heard of anyone having issues because of the rebates rim. It seems to be a non-issue.
sam
Post by: mountainman on June 05, 2014, 09:12:12 AM
Post by: b23 on June 05, 2014, 12:42:33 PM
Isn't the definition of a "brush gun" basically close range use??? :dunno:
To me, a brush gun would be something with open sights, lever action, 44 or 45 caliber (45-70, 444, 450), shortish barrel 16-20in max. with its shooting purpose being 100yds or less. We all know any of these would shoot much further than 100yds but with open sights and using a zero of no more than a 100yds I'm not sure how well I could guess the elevation, with open sights, to accommodate for that much drop in bullet trajectory out to 200yds.
Post by: MountainWalk on June 05, 2014, 12:51:56 PM
Post by: snowpack on June 05, 2014, 01:03:12 PM
Post by: MountainWalk on June 05, 2014, 01:09:52 PM
Post by: Alchase on June 05, 2014, 01:19:44 PM
I personally believe the term "brush gun" should go away along with the term "stopping power".
They are both myths.
Their have been tons of tests that shot a larger slow moving bullet deflects just as easy as a fast moving bullet.
If "brush gun" is referring to a rifle with a shorter shorter barrel, with open sights to be shot at close ranges possibly in dense cover (but not through it) then my choice would be any of the following, LOL
Winchester 30-30 lever action
Any shorter barrelled 45-70 lever action
Ruger mini-14 in .308
Seeing a pattern here?
I grew up hunting the dense forest Olympic Peninsula black tail and elk.
I have always use the same bolt action type rifles that I use hunting the East side.
Similar to what I shoot now:
Ruger M77 MkII, 7mm mag with VxIII
Sako Finlight, 300 Win Mag with VxIII
I could never find an ounce of reason
(except to justify increasing the size of my rifle family, and that would be reason enough to buy one)
that would put one of the "brush guns" mentioned in a better position for me to succeed then the bolt action rifles I use currently.
Post by: BLR 243 on June 05, 2014, 01:49:23 PM
Post by: BLR 243 on June 05, 2014, 02:04:07 PM
Post by: BLR 243 on June 05, 2014, 02:07:40 PM
Post by: BLR 243 on June 05, 2014, 02:08:46 PM
Post by: 700xcr on June 06, 2014, 02:53:36 AM
Post by: RG on June 06, 2014, 08:11:13 AM
Post by: timberghost72 on June 06, 2014, 09:26:55 PM
Post by: metlhead on June 07, 2014, 10:05:00 PM
Post by: RG on June 08, 2014, 07:18:11 AM
I agree about the feel of a '94 in the hands. Feels like a multi-use tool. Got two, classic 30-30 for those heavy reprod drives forblacktails and the .375 for the elk. I just shoot factory ammo in the .30 but managed to score dies and a few boxes of 220gr. Hornadys for the .375 and reload it hot. Quick death laser beam under 50yds, and I wouldn't hesitate to reach out to 150 with it.Perfect. I've shot deer with a lot of calibers and have seen them shot with a lot more. The quickest I've seen one fall was when I hit one at 75 yards in mid jump with a 170 grain Remington corelokt 30-30 on the point of the shoulder. He slid to a stop on his chin. Ha. I reload my .356 Winchester too. I've been using the Hornady 200 grain bullet they put in the lever revolution loads. I get about 2400-2500 fps. It's just the thing for a saddle gun or handy big game rifle.
Post by: AWS on June 08, 2014, 10:03:34 AM
Post by: jasnt on June 08, 2014, 10:41:06 AM
Post by: Jingles on June 08, 2014, 10:52:33 AM
Post by: AWS on June 08, 2014, 12:48:02 PM
Now if your trail/bait sitting in heavy cover that's a whole different game.
Post by: b23 on June 08, 2014, 01:46:51 PM
Brush country isn't all thick brush, there are clearings, drainages and marshes all intermixed. Working your way down a creek and bump a buck , he jumps the creek and runs up the other side and stops to look back to see what spooked him. I like my choice.
Now if your trail/bait sitting in heavy cover that's a whole different game.
Everyone's interpretation of a "brush gun" is a little different. This wouldn't really fall into MY interpretation of a brush gun but that's only my opinion and it certainly doesn't make it right, that's for sure, but using your scenario as something that could likely happen in the area or terrain I was hunting, I would likely use a short barreled, 20in, bolt gun probably chambered in 308 with something like a 2.5x10 scope.
Post by: AWS on June 08, 2014, 02:17:01 PM
Gave the little Savage to my nephew and he's still killing deer back there with it.
Post by: Bob33 on June 08, 2014, 02:30:31 PM
I'm sure glad I had more than a "brush gun" at the time. :twocents:
Post by: Biggerhammer on June 08, 2014, 03:19:45 PM
I'm sure glad I had more than a "brush gun" at the time. :twocents:
:tup:
Post by: Firetwin3 on June 08, 2014, 05:55:25 PM
But you just need a gun that your comfortable with at all ranges. :twocents:
Post by: HawkCreek on June 10, 2014, 04:16:08 PM
If the "brush gun" is implying a slower larger bullet does any better then a smaller faster bullet busting through brush then,
I personally believe the term "brush gun" should go away along with the term "stopping power".
They are both myths.
Their have been tons of tests that shot a larger slow moving bullet deflects just as easy as a fast moving bullet.
If "brush gun" is referring to a rifle with a shorter shorter barrel, with open sights to be shot at close ranges possibly in dense cover (but not through it) then my choice would be any of the following, LOL
Winchester 30-30 lever action
Any shorter barrelled 45-70 lever action
Ruger mini-14 in .308 Do you mean a Mini-30 in 7.62x39? Otherwise a Mini-14 is Rugers idea of a scaled down M-14 which is 7.62x51 (.308) Mine is an 18" barreled version and weights close to 9 pounds unloaded.
Seeing a pattern here?
I grew up hunting the dense forest Olympic Peninsula black tail and elk.
I have always use the same bolt action type rifles that I use hunting the East side.
Similar to what I shoot now:
Ruger M77 MkII, 7mm mag with VxIII
Sako Finlight, 300 Win Mag with VxIII
I could never find an ounce of reason
(except to justify increasing the size of my rifle family, and that would be reason enough to buy one)
that would put one of the "brush guns" mentioned in a better position for me to succeed then the bolt action rifles I use currently.
I've seen the same tests you have and I agree the evidence shows that there is no such things as a brush busting caliber.
I also find it amusing that you hunt in the thick stuff with heavier rifles (larger caliber at least) than I hunt on the open areas of the dry side. I think this is a great example of "dance with the one that brung ya" (or that you brought as it were). Obviously the 7mm and .300 have worked in the brush just like a .308 and .30-06 have worked for me in the open.
Post by: Alchase on June 11, 2014, 09:06:46 AM
Do you mean a Mini-30 in 7.62x39? Otherwise a Mini-14 is Rugers idea of a scaled down M-14 which is 7.62x51 (.308) Mine is an 18" barreled version and weights close to 9 pounds unloaded. [/b]
:tup:
Yes, I meant the Mini-30, sorry I tend to group all the variants into "Mini-14" name.
I use a "sporterized" version of the M14 on occasion in the service. Have found memories of a dependable, efficient weapon.
Post by: Alchase on June 11, 2014, 09:30:08 AM
A few years back hunting near Summit Creak. I noticed movement barely 20 yards away through the dense trees and undergrowth. I threw my rifle up and all I saw was grey hair!
I could not even tell what part of the bucks body I was looking at.
The previous hunt, I had been in Winthrop, and I forgot dial my VXIII down at the start of this hunt. By the time I realized what was wrong, he was in to thick for a shot.
A correctly adjusted scope or even an open sight rifle would have been back straps for dinner.