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Equipment & Gear => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: lablover on June 03, 2014, 06:07:58 PM


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Title: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on June 03, 2014, 06:07:58 PM
I'm starting this thread for those who also have an issue with trying to find a load for their .270 WSM. I'm shooting a Model 70 with stainless steel, and a Bell & Carlson Metalist stock.

The best shooting load I found in my gun WAS the following; Federal case, 62gr RL22, 150gr SST, with an OAL of 2.860". I was able to consistently shoot 1/2 MOA with this set up and had a 2915fps muzzle speed. I later began to experience cracked necks, and stuck cases in the chamber due to over pressure. I later learned that I was using Magnum Rifle Primers, and not Large Rifle Primers. When I later chrono'd some rounds that I loaded, I learned I was nowhere near the 2915fps, I was over 3100fps. Everything was the same, so what changed?

I'm guessing that I made mistake in my original load, and I didn't put in 62gr of powder. I'm now trying to replicate the speed which my rifle liked, but have yet to do that. Hornady has quit making the 150gr SST. Now that I have all the reloading equipment and have begun to learn more about the process, I'm going to experiment with 130's and 140's. As soon as my new scope, rings, and 20 MOA base get here, I'm going to begin load testing.

As I do so, I will post the details of each load, and will try to take photos of the outcome. I plan on bedding the rifle between then and now as well. Does anyone know where I can buy load testing bullet packs online? I hope this helps someone in the future as I share this experience with you all.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: 700xcr on June 04, 2014, 04:12:08 AM
Was there a temperature change when you first started shooting this load from now? I have found testing loads in the colder weather is different then hotter weather. Higher pressures with warmer weather. Found this even with factory loads. I use Accurate Arms MagPro with a Nosler 140gr. Accubond using a Winchester large rifle magnum primer. Get less then 1/2" group with 67.5grs. but not hot rodding it either. Getting 3050fps. average.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: elkaholic123 on June 04, 2014, 04:55:34 AM
I was using r/l 22 65gr. on 140 gr Accubond and got 3200 fps
Switched to r/l 17 61gr. same bullets and 3150 fps but better accuracy   :twocents:
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: RG on June 04, 2014, 06:46:52 AM
I'm going to follow this thread. I picked up a .270 wsm but haven't started loading yet.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: WoodlandShooter on June 04, 2014, 09:16:09 AM
Well, I have absolutely NO experience with the 270 WSM.

But I do have a 243WSSM, and it is a finicky cartrige, and signs of pressure come on FAST.

I have a load for my 270 WIN, 61.5 grains of H1000 over a 150 grain NABLR and a CCI BR2 primer. MV is 3000FPS

I like H1000
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: bobcat on June 04, 2014, 09:18:23 AM
Don't you have trouble fitting that much H1000 in a 270 case, especially when using that extra long bullet?
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: AWS on June 04, 2014, 09:26:21 AM
If your getting cracked necks it is probably time to anneal your brass. 
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: bobcat on June 04, 2014, 01:04:33 PM
"Well that is all I can add to this..... Sure would be nice if there was a perfect load for each caliber that all guns would respond to!"

There is. Read this: 

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ocw-overview/4529824091
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: huntnphool on June 04, 2014, 01:09:42 PM
You might check with elkaholic123, he had a pretty good load worked up for his.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: WoodlandShooter on June 04, 2014, 02:16:08 PM
Don't you have trouble fitting that much H1000 in a 270 case, especially when using that extra long bullet?

it's a bit compressed
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: MuleDeerCrazy on June 04, 2014, 02:42:31 PM
My best groups were with 69.5 grains of MagPro pushing 140 grain Accubonds, w/ WLRM primers, but holy smokes was it hot!  Since I was setting it up for my youngest daughter, that wasn't going to work, but impressive groups and velocities w/ the MagPro.  Settled on a dumbed down version w/ RL22, not near as accurate... but the daughter's not afraid of it.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on June 04, 2014, 05:35:13 PM
700xcr - Regarding the temperature change, there was some temperature change, but not a significant amount. I have been told by a couple of people now that RL22 and the IMR powders are the top two that temperature has a very negative impact on. I get that temperature and pressure have a lot to do with ballistics, but I have a feeling that it was my error during the initial load.

I see some of you folks have put down that you are using Large Rifle Magnum primers. The loads that I have seen, including the instructions that come with the die set, shows that this cartridge should be using Large Rifle primers only. When I loaded some more rounds with the correct primers, I have yet to find a cracked case or a jammed case in the chamber due to over pressure. Has anyone found a load calling for Magnum Primers for this caliber?

Also, I just purchased a 1000 of the CCI BR2 primers because Cabelas told me they couldn't get the 200's anymore. Not sure what the validity to that is, but what can I do? The research I have done says there is very minimal performance difference, if any, between the two. Does anyone have thought on this?

I just found out that my rings won't be here for two weeks, so my testing has been put on hold until then.  :bash:
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: elkaholic123 on June 04, 2014, 06:02:50 PM
700xcr - Regarding the temperature change, there was some temperature change, but not a significant amount. I have been told by a couple of people now that RL22 and the IMR powders are the top two that temperature has a very negative impact on. I get that temperature and pressure have a lot to do with ballistics, but I have a feeling that it was my error during the initial load.

I see some of you folks have put down that you are using Large Rifle Magnum primers. The loads that I have seen, including the instructions that come with the die set, shows that this cartridge should be using Large Rifle primers only. When I loaded some more rounds with the correct primers, I have yet to find a cracked case or a jammed case in the chamber due to over pressure. Has anyone found a load calling for Magnum Primers for this caliber?

Also, I just purchased a 1000 of the CCI BR2 primers because Cabelas told me they couldn't get the 200's anymore. Not sure what the validity to that is, but what can I do? The research I have done says there is very minimal performance difference, if any, between the two. Does anyone have thought on this?

I just found out that my rings won't be here for two weeks, so my testing has been put on hold until then.  :bash:
this is WSM Magnum, yes it calls for magnum primers
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on June 04, 2014, 06:19:01 PM
Why does Lee & RCBS say it uses Large Rifle Primers only then? So confusing with so much info out there.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: Curly on June 04, 2014, 06:36:32 PM
Why does Lee & RCBS say it uses Large Rifle Primers only then? So confusing with so much info out there.

 :dunno:

All my books show magnum primers for the 270 WSM........  :dunno:

But, I have a great load worked up with my .300 WM using Winchester Large Rifle primers (not magnum) and H1000.  So, I know you can get away without using magnum primers in some instances.  ???
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: RadSav on June 04, 2014, 06:41:50 PM
Maybe some dill weed inserted .270 Win instructions into a WSM box :dunno:  All my manuals (that I can find)call for magnum primers.  Still trying to find my Speer manual.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: Forks on June 04, 2014, 06:58:25 PM
58gr RL17 - 140 Accubond - CCI250 - Norma brass for mine.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on June 04, 2014, 11:27:22 PM
So I was reading a post started by Jingles about long range guns, and someone poste a link about Dan Newberry and his OCW way of gathering an accurate load for the bullet you want. Fantastic read and I'm going to try and use his methodology for my exploration. Its worth a try and what he talks about makes perfect sense. Great read. Here's the link.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/# (http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#)
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: RadSav on June 04, 2014, 11:59:53 PM
So I was reading a post started by Jingles about long range guns, and someone poste a link about Dan Newberry and his OCW way of gathering an accurate load for the bullet you want. Fantastic read and I'm going to try and use his methodology for my exploration. Its worth a try and what he talks about makes perfect sense. Great read. Here's the link.

That is very interesting! 
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: bobcat on June 05, 2014, 12:18:28 AM
So I was reading a post started by Jingles about long range guns, and someone poste a link about Dan Newberry and his OCW way of gathering an accurate load for the bullet you want. Fantastic read and I'm going to try and use his methodology for my exploration. Its worth a try and what he talks about makes perfect sense. Great read. Here's the link.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/# (http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#)

Yes that was me and I really like Newberry's ideas on working up an accurate load. I'll be using his methods in the next couple months. Hopefully I don't have to burn up too much powder doing so, cause that stuff is NOT cheap anymore!

I've got some 140 grain Bergers and some 140 grain Accubonds to try in my 270 Win. Neither of which I have ever used, so it will be interesting to see how they do. I also have never used 140 grain, 150's are all I've ever used. The Nosler Ballistic Tips always shot best.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on June 05, 2014, 12:22:59 AM
I shot a 3/4 MOA with the Nosler BTs a couple weeks ago. I haven't heard the best things about them on animals though. My friend has a wsm that shoots 62gr RL22 with a 140 accubond that shot 1/2 MOA. Accubonds are amazing animal killers, but expensive to "plink". I'm gonna try and work up some loads with 140s of various kinds.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: bobcat on June 05, 2014, 12:27:14 AM
Ballistic Tips have always worked great on deer for me, and one antelope, and I've been using them since about 1997. Never was brave enough to use them on elk. For that I have Barnes or Grand Slams. But I almost always use a bow or muzzleloader for elk hunting in this state, so never really needed anything other than the BT's.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: 700xcr on June 05, 2014, 05:27:30 AM
My best groups were with 69.5 grains of MagPro pushing 140 grain Accubonds, w/ WLRM primers, but holy smokes was it hot!  Since I was setting it up for my youngest daughter, that wasn't going to work, but impressive groups and velocities w/ the MagPro.  Settled on a dumbed down version w/ RL22, not near as accurate... but the daughter's not afraid of it.
I ended up 67.5grs. Of MagPro. Tried going up to 70.0grs. and had sticky extraction.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: Caretaker on June 09, 2014, 05:20:11 PM
This is a load that I worked up a few years ago for my Browning X-Bolt Stainless Stalker:
270 WSM
62.3 grains RL17
CCI250
130 gr TTSX
Seated .020 off the lands, COAL 2.81
Chronographed 3360
2.50 " group @ 400

Now with that said.... I sold this rifle and bought another one, the exact same cal/make but this load didn't shoot out of it as well as this one...
129 GR LRX
73 grains MagPro
Winchester Mag Primers
COAL 2.887
3/4" @ 100 yds
I haven't chronographed them yet but by doing some reverse math I am using 3250 FPS as a base.  I'll update this number when I get my chrony to the range.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on June 16, 2014, 09:25:54 PM
So I now have the new scope, rings, and rail mounted on the rifle. After speaking with a few gunsmiths, I have chosen not to bed the rifle at this time. I have had this gun shooting 1/2 MOA at 100 yards, so in was basically told "why mess with a good shooting gun?" I have to agree.

As soon as the wind stops blowing I'm going to start with the first round of 140 gr SST OCW testing.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration: UPDATED
Post by: lablover on June 29, 2014, 11:58:09 PM
Well, I finally had time to go out and shoot. The conditions were ideal, with the exception of lack of sleep. This was the first time I have used Dan Newberry's "Optimal Charge Weight" load development system. I really enjoyed this process, and it makes perfect sense. So I will try to get some photos in here as we go along. Here's the product I was using.

Weather:
60 degree
2000ft
0-5mph wind

Winchester Model 70 .270 WSM in stainless steel.
Bell & Carlson Metalist stock.
EGW 20 MOA rail
Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44MM Scope
Vortex tactical 30mm rings.

Winchester brass cases
CCI BR-2 Large Rifle Primers
RL22 Powder
Hornady 140gr SST bullets
2.800 OAL

First 3 rounds are considered "sighters" to see where they will hit on the paper in case adjustment is needed. These are the lowest charges tested.
1@54.9gr
1@56.0gr
1@57.1gr


#1
3@58.2gr
2892fps
2886fps
2957fps
1.10" MOA

#2
3@58.8gr
2963fps
2949fps
3028fps
.75" MOA

#3
3@59.4gr
2972fps
3027fps
3080fps
1.01" MOA

#4
3@60.0gr
1570fps *media foul in case
3073fps
error
1.6" MOA (only two rounds on target due to foul.)

#5
3@60.6gr
3077fps
3073fps
3215fps
.92" MOA

#6
3@61.2gr
3100fps
error
error
1.22" MOA

As you can see I was having a difficult time with the chronograph reading on some of the rounds. This was the first time I have shot 140's with any intention to check for accuracy, and they did not perform as well as I liked. The best group I had was on the #2 target with a .75" MOA. Targets #1 & #3 shot right at 1MOA. I then looked at the point of impact on each of the three targets. (NOTE: #2 target had metal behind it causing the blow back on paper. I was able to measure the holes in the metal.) The two targets with the closest points of impact (POI) were #1 & #2. Therefore, I would chose a powder grain of 58.6 GR, allowing an error higher or lower with the same POI.

That being said, I'm not happy with the consistency of the RL22 power, or the accuracy of the 140 gr SST out of my rifle. I know some people would say I'm crazy for disregarding the .75" MOA group, but I have had this rifle shooting .50" MOA repeatedly with the 150gr SSTs which are no longer being made. So, I have now loaded another go round of the OCW system using IMR4350 powder (popular in WSM's of all calibers I've read,) accompanied by Sierra Game King 150gr Spitzers. I will post the results when I get the weather and time to shoot them.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: RadSav on June 30, 2014, 01:08:49 AM
Where did you hear the 150 grain SST is not being made any more?  I know they are just about impossible to find, as are most every other popular bullet these days, but I was under the impression it was still on Hornady's active list. :dunno:
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: elkaholic123 on June 30, 2014, 04:52:37 AM
You are still using large rifle primers  :dunno: This load calls for WLRM primers
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on June 30, 2014, 05:58:24 AM
Radsav, I contacted hornady directly about 2 months ago when I saw that their website said "suspended" on the bullet status. I was told they are not making them anymore (in .270,) in that grain. Now I see their website no longer says suspended, but they are still not available for purchase.

Elk, Most loads call for magnum primers, you are correct. My dilemma is that some say large and some say magnum. My Lyman book and Nosler say Magnum (for most loads,) but Lee says large rifle. In federal cases the magnums were causing necks to split, but didn't with large. I am going to shoot my current loaded rounds and then try magnums as well. Also, different resources say that faster burning powders should use large, and slower powders to use magnum.

Ultimately, I don't care what primer I use if I get an accurate and consistent load. If the 150s come back, I'll be stock piling those things. 
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: RadSav on June 30, 2014, 06:05:46 AM
Radsav, I contacted hornady directly about 2 months ago when I saw that their website said "suspended" on the bullet status. I was told they are not making them anymore (in .270,) in that grain. Now I see their website no longer says suspended, but they are still not available for purchase.

Elk, Most loads call for magnum primers, you are correct. My dilemma is that some say large and some say magnum. My Lyman book and Nosler say Magnum (for most loads,) but Lee says large rifle. In federal cases the magnums were causing necks to split, but didn't with large. I am going to shoot my current loaded rounds and then try magnums as well. Also, different resources say that faster burning powders should use large, and slower powders to use magnum.

Good to know about the SST.  I know some standard 270WIN guys that are going to be upset about that!

I would consider RL22 as a slow powder  :dunno:  If I were trying to use Winchester cases, RL22 and LR primers I'd make sure I really chamfered the flash hole good.  I've experienced inconsistent results with slow powder and Winchester cases if I didn't first chamfer the holes good.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on June 30, 2014, 06:08:11 AM
That's good to know. I haven't experienced that yet, but I would rather not. I can't find anymore of the Winchester cases. Very irritating. I have 100 or so Federals which my rifle doesn't like.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: RadSav on June 30, 2014, 06:17:22 AM
In both the .325WSM and the 257 Roberts my groups reduced greatly with a common load by chamfering the flash holes.  I started very light on the chamfers until I got some new Nosler brass and started shooting great.  In the new cases I could see that Nosler was very aggressive with it so I've tried to duplicate that.  Seems to work great!

I was running some Norma MRP (similar to RL22) out of the 280 Remington.  Shot ok but nothing to write home about.  Then I got hold of a Norma load manual and they recommended Magnum primers in all their 280 loads.  Changed everything for the better.  Now I am using the faster URP and 140 grain SST but have kept the Magnum primer per Norma's call out.  Seems weird to me, but it works!
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: elkaholic123 on June 30, 2014, 08:03:33 AM
The difference between LR and LRM primers is about 1-1.5 grains of powder equivalent, the magnum primer is not the reason the cases are splitting  :twocents:   how many times have they been reloaded? I run hotter loads and magnum primers and have never had 1 damaged case  :dunno: Maybe just bad cases
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on June 30, 2014, 04:07:19 PM
The federal cases were shot 1-3 times depending on the case. I've only split the cases on the Federals, never a Winchester. My loads were by no means got. I was using rl22 with magnum primers and a 150 gr SST at 3000fps. In comparison to other loads, it is mild. The same load with large primers don't split.

Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 30, 2014, 04:42:51 PM
Are you shooting these 3 shot groups repeatedly ? Or you shooting one shot about every 5 minutes ...reason I say this is most barrels are made so thin today and when they get hot they usually throw the 3rd shot ...I just loaded some for a friend in a 7mm mag ..160 NOSLER ...They 1st 2 shots hit each other and the third went about 1 1/2 low and about 1 inch right ...This happened consistently with 3 different loads I shot ...now as far as the SST goes it would not hurt my feelings if they quit making them ...I have shot Hornaday all my life and the Shoots well but is hell on meat ...I would go with the 140 Interlock if you can find them ...Deer elk bear doesn't matter they will all take a dirt nap !   :twocents:  another thing i would suggest if your shooting a mag .... throw away those mag . primers and go to a federal 210 ...less drag and work great !
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on June 30, 2014, 04:54:17 PM
I allowed the barrel to cool after every shot. It took nearly an hour and a half to shoot all 21 rounds. Look at Dan Newberrys OCW system and you can see how the process works.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: RadSav on June 30, 2014, 06:35:43 PM
another thing i would suggest if your shooting a mag .... throw away those mag . primers and go to a federal 215 ...less drag and work great !

Huh?  :hunt2:

Isn't a Federal 215 a mag primer  :dunno:
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 30, 2014, 06:59:20 PM
Slap me in the head  :DOH: I MEANT 210 .....SORRY ... I will go back to my couch now ...
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: RadSav on June 30, 2014, 08:32:13 PM
 :chuckle:  Actually Federal states the 210 and the 215 as having the same nominal diameter.  So I guess I'm not sure what the "Less Drag" you are referring to.  Not being facetious or a smart-alecky at all!  Just trying to get some clarity.  I recently started reloading again after a long hiatus.  So a lot of the new stuff and terminology finds me stuck in old school straining to comprehend some of this stuff.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 30, 2014, 10:54:38 PM
O.K Since I put my nose in on this I will try to explain myself  :chuckle:  A federal 215 is (hotter) than a 210 primer ...that's why it is marked magnum ...it puts more pressure in the case than a 210 primer which sometimes less pressure is better than more pressure ...just another factor for making a gun shoot a 1 1/2 group compared to 1/2 group ....Just like seating the primer ..most seat the primer flush to the bottom of the cartridge ...its better to seat them a hair below the bottom of the cartridge ..this insures that the primer is properly pressed against the priming compound for reliable ignition ...Seems to me each company has a hotter primer than the other ...Winchester is most likely the hottest of the 3  I use ...Federal and CCI are the lesser of the 3 ...How did I do ?  :tup:
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on July 01, 2014, 06:15:14 AM
I got it. I have yet to find a round over 3100fps that my rifle likes, therefore, I would rather use a lesser charged primer.

I am going to shoot the IMR 4350 with the 150 game kings with the LRP. If not happy with the outcome. I will try the mags.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: swift on July 01, 2014, 06:48:34 AM
Worked up this load for my sons remington sps 
59 gr imr 4350, 130 gr  nosler bt , .010 off lands , fed gm215m primers
3010 fps  and 9 1 shot deer ! Shoots 1/2" at 100
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on July 05, 2014, 08:01:33 AM
I changed my mind. After reading that nearly everyone is running magnum primers, I pulled my LRPs and put in some Federal 215s. As soon as the weather is calm enough to shoot I will post the results.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on July 05, 2014, 03:45:00 PM
I changed my mind. After reading that nearly everyone is running magnum primers, I pulled my LRPs and put in some Federal 215s. As soon as the weather is calm enough to shoot I will post the results.
:dunno: :chuckle: that doesn't surprise me bud ...I am still working up a load for my buddies 7mm Mag ...I think I will load 3 with a 215 primer and 3 with a 210 primer ... Not saying it will make a difference but I know it did with my 300 WSM ..Like a huge difference ...You can also look up what I am talking about by going to their websites ...its all there ! Just in case I am being called out  :dunno:

This guy has some good info that may help too ... this may be more important than the primers .. :twocents:  http://youtu.be/IVltKuzVBMw (http://youtu.be/IVltKuzVBMw)
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: Curly on July 05, 2014, 04:19:07 PM
You might also want to try WLR primers.....they are supposedly almost as hot as some mag primers. 

" I don't know how valid it is, but the opinion of many reloaders seems to be that Winchester primers are generally the "hottest," Federal and CCI are the middle brands, and Remington primers are the mildest. That is also my impression, but understand that it is based on rumor and supposition, not fact."

http://www.chuckhawks.com/primers.htm
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on July 05, 2014, 04:24:06 PM
You might also want to try WLR primers.....they are supposedly almost as hot as some mag primers. 

" I don't know how valid it is, but the opinion of many reloaders seems to be that Winchester primers are generally the "hottest," Federal and CCI are the middle brands, and Remington primers are the mildest. That is also my impression, but understand that it is based on rumor and supposition, not fact."

http://www.chuckhawks.com/primers.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/primers.htm)
I agree Curly ...but enough reloaders think the same so I would say it is pretty much fact.. :dunno: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: Curly on July 05, 2014, 04:33:45 PM
I found some data on primers that backs up what chuck hawks wrote:

Relative heat is usually widely admitted as follow (at ambiant temperature - NOT from a scientific experimentation);
Hotter
Fed 215
WLRM
CCI250
Fed 210
Rem 9 1/2 M
WLR
Fed 210
CCI BR2
CCI 200
Rem 9 1/2
Cooler

Relative pressure (20 Deg. C);
Fed 215 (9.1 Mpa)
WLR (8.8 Mpa)
Fed 210 (7.5 Mpa)
CCI 200 (7.0 Mpa)
CCI 250 (6.9 Mpa)
Pressure datas from Norma


I have very accurate load in my 300 win mag using 83 gr H1000 and WLR primers.  I have never had a problem igniting that slow burning powder with WLR primers.   Switching from CCI mag primers to the WLR shrunk my groups.....so I haven't tried another brand of mag primers,  since it works.  I have never seen a book call for standard primers in the 300 win but it seems to work so I haven't messed with it.  ???



Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on July 08, 2014, 10:52:29 AM
LOTS LEARNED!

Well, I shot my rifle yesterday morning, and only got a few rounds in it before I had to quit. I was shooting IMR 4350, and started low in powder weight. My first three shots which were each loaded with different grains of powder (54, 55.1, 56.2) are what I used as "sighters." I shot .75" with these three rounds. This should have been my first clue that my rifle likes a slow speed. these speeds were in the high 2800 and low 2900 fps ranges

As the grains went up, I began to see pressure signs. I quickly learned that my rifle does not like anything over 3100fps. At 3050fps, I have pressure signs on thep primer, and the case began to get sticky in its removal from the chamber. This was the first time I have ever experienced a split case on a Winchester. At 3100fps, the case was stuck in the chamber, and I couldn't use the bolt to get it out. I quit shooting at this point.

I then came home and pulled all the rounds that I had remaining. I then loaded the following loads to see what the slower speeds would do and how they would perform. They were all loaded with Sierra Game King 150's.

IMR 4350
54, 54.5, 56.0
FED 215 primers

RL22
55.5, 56.0, 56.5
FED 215 primers

IMR 7828
56.0, 56.5, 57.0
FED 215 primers

I won't post all the photos but I will tell you about them. The worst overall grouping was the RL22, I had a 2.21", 2.00", and .92". The .92" group was the 56.5 gr with a high speed of 2874fps. The 4350 performed second best with groups of 1.9", 1.19", and 1.09". The best group was 1.09" on 55gr with a top speed of 2914fps. The best powder was by far the IMR 7828 with groups of .98", .95", and .44". The .44" was the 56.0 gr with a top speed of 2717. The bad part is I'm not happy with this speed coming out of a WSM. Since I know my rifle does not like hot rounds, I am now going to see if I can find a combo around the 2950fps range.

My next step is going to be increasing the grains in the IMR 7828 to get me to the 2950fps range. So, I'm going to throw this out there for any of you that are gunsmiths or very knowledgable in the dynamics of actions and the chambering of rifles. What is wrong (if anything) with this rifle that won't let it shoot hot loads? A reason for using the WSM is more velocity, and more energy than the standard .270. At the low speeds that this rifle is limiting me to, there isn't much benefit of having it. Does anyone have any suggestions on what this could be caused by. I should note that ever since I have had this rifle, it has not liked hot rounds (Winchester Premium box ammo especially) that are shooting 3200-3400fps. I've tried load after load in box ammo, and had the same result with stuck casings in the chamber. Is this maybe a machine flaw at the factory level on this rifle?

Here are the photos.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: elkaholic123 on July 08, 2014, 11:10:07 AM
I would dump rifle :twocents:
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on July 08, 2014, 11:22:34 AM
There are many answers to your question .. Barrel free floating - seating the bullet to fit that particular gun ..on and on ...those groups you just posted are good groups for any hunting rifle ..most guys would be happy with what you have .. I personally would be happy with target #8 ...that's what a good group looks like ..reloading takes a lot of time and a lot of wasted powder to find the perfect combination...I remember when R22 came out ...A lot of guys were hippin and hollering about how fast their guns were shooting but from what I have seen they can have it ...No animal will know the difference if a bullet is shooting 3400 fps or 2700 fps ...I have shot a .270 all my life and  killed animals close and way out there ..Can not really see any need for a mag .. Now this is just me and my opinion So do not think I am being a Smart Butt  :chuckle: 


I loaded up some 7mag last night ...3 with the same bullet and powder and all seated the same ..But 3 have a 215 primer and 3 have a 210 primer ...we we what happens .....
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: RadSav on July 08, 2014, 11:26:44 AM
Have you measured to see how far off the lands you are?  Is that case in the primer picture the same as the one with the split neck?  Have you measured the neck to see how much expansion is taking place?  How many times have those cases been loaded?  Have you annealed any of these cases?  Is that a doughnut at the base of the neck too?
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: Curly on July 08, 2014, 11:39:03 AM
Take it to a gunsmith or sell it.  Might as well have a standard .270 at those velocities.  Are you sure the bullets aren't jammed into the lands?
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on July 08, 2014, 07:22:42 PM
Bowhunter - My barrel is free floated, and has a great fit on the Bell & Carlson stock (not bedded.) Believe me when I say I am extremely happy with target #8. That grouping is great out of any hunting rifle, and you won't here me complain of the the size, its the speed that I'm frustrated with. If I could have that performace even at 2900 or 3000 fps, I would be very happy. I'm going to try to get there with the IMR 7828.

Curly - I agree with have a standard .270 with those speeds, thats why I'm frustrated.

RadSav - I have not measured off the lands yet. I went to Cabelas to buy the tool, but of course they didn't have the case for it. Yes the photos of the case are of the same round. I have not measured the neck for expansion. The cases have been shot between 1-3 (I have them sorted.) These cases were on their 3rd round. I only have 50 of the Winchester cases. I have not annealed any of the cases. I have never done that before, but need to learn. As for the "donut," I was not aware of that term before you brought that up. After doing some research, I understand what it is, and understand why the .270 WSM is so prone to it with the steep shoulder angle. Even with 1st, and 2nd time shot brass, if the loads are hot they still get stuck, so I would like to believe that it isn't the quality or age of the brass that is causing the issue.

I've had my rifle looked at by a gun smith when the brake was put on, and he gave it the once over. Everything seemed to look good, and told me I had a good rifle.  I would like to say that I know that it is me that is messing up in my loading process, in turn causnig the issue in the rifle, and I could learn to fix my errors and not have the problem. With several different box ammos tested when I first got the rifle, I get the same results of over pressure in the chamber causing jammed cases. Soooo....I'm back to the machining of the rifle???? I'm not a guy that owns a ton of rifles. I enjoy shooting, and especially enjoy the research/learning/loading process of it. This is my only hunting rifle I have. I was going to use this rifle for smaller big game (deer/antelope) and I want to get a bigger caliber for larger big game (Moose, elk, etc.) At this point I'm not ruling out selling this one and getting a rifle I can use for both.

Thanks for all the input folks. It is greatly appreciated and am enjoying learning from you all. I will post what I find with the next go round of testing.

 


Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: Curly on July 08, 2014, 08:11:12 PM
Maybe you said earlier and if so, I missed it, but do you know for sure that your chronograph is working correctly? 
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: Curly on July 08, 2014, 08:35:58 PM
The other thing that comes to mind with your issue of split cases is the dies.  Are they setup right? Could it be that the getting worked too much?  You might try setting the sizing die so that you just barely bump the shoulder.....I think the method is referred to as partial full length sizing.  Basically your brass does ' move much when shot since it fits real close to your chamber.  You should get better accuracy and life out of the brass. :2CENTS:
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: Curly on July 08, 2014, 08:52:18 PM
Neck Sizing vs. Bump Sizing vs. Full Length Sizing:
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: RadSav on July 08, 2014, 08:57:49 PM
Maybe you said earlier and if so, I missed it, but do you know for sure that your chronograph is working correctly?

Seems consistent with the powder charges.

Other than the stuck cases I am not seeing any pressure signs in those pictures.  What are you seeing I am not?

Split case for me has been common with Winchester WSM cases.  Even annealed I'm only getting 3 or four loadings.  Though I'm getting best groups running near full powder charge R-22 and CCI magnum primers.  Only getting a few more loading with Nosler brass, but never a split neck.

Are you neck sizing only?  Trying to figure out what that ring around the neck is!  If it's the result of a machine mark in the chamber that could cause stuck cases without excess pressure :dunno:

If I were to take a wild guess I'd say that gun has a throat issue.  Either excessive in diameter, metal burr or improper alignment.  That is something a smith wouldn't necessarily look for in a basic check of the rifle.  But should be rather easy for him the check if he knows there is a potential problem.

Then again I'm not the expert with vast amounts of experience in such things like others on here.  I might PM Biggerhammer or RBros and ask them to check out the thread and offer some thoughts.  I expect their knowledge is far greater than an old silhouette shooter from 30 years ago like me.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on July 08, 2014, 09:12:33 PM
Thx for the video Rad. More tools to buy. The chrono is my hunting partners. It works, but I don't have another to compare it to. We have constant problems with it giving errors regardless of how near or far we set it. I will see if I can find someone that has one that I can compare with. I'd be shocked if it was off though. My .308 rounds are around 2550 which is about right for what I'm loading.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: RadSav on July 08, 2014, 09:16:39 PM
Thx for the video Rad.

That credit and Thx should go to Curly, I believe!
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on July 08, 2014, 09:20:57 PM
My bad! Curly thx for the video and info.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: Curly on July 08, 2014, 09:24:41 PM
It does sound like the chronograph is in the ballpark.  And I agree with Rad, no over pressure signs on there, I didn't see the pics earlier, just read about the split necks.  I don't have a WSM only a wssm so I'm no expert either, just throwing things out there. 

It sure seems like there is something wrong with the chamber if factory loads are difficult to extract.  You just shouldn't have problems with factory rounds; they don't want over pressure issues and suffer lawsuits so they are careful to keep them within spec. 
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on July 09, 2014, 11:48:04 AM
You may want an Ultra mag  :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on July 25, 2014, 10:06:47 AM
After doing some more research on some of my issues, I realized I have overlooked a huge factor in reloading; PSI in the case. As I have mentioned before, I am relatively new to reloading (4 years) and still have a lot to learn. I feel so stupid. Understanding that a 150 grain bullet with 64,000 PSI is going to shoot much slower than a 130 grain bullet with 64,000 PSI, I feel juvenile. I was trying to force the bullet out faster expecting nothing to happen? come on Ryan!!!!  :bash: Not sure how or why I wasn't smart enough to think about this, but now that I'm aware of it, some of my issues make a heck of a lot of sense.

Here I was trying to get my 150 gr bullet to fly 3100-3200 fps, I have found very few loads that will allow that with a 150gr bullet. After talking with a gunsmith, it also greatly depends on the manufacturing of the rifle. Remember, this is an off the shelf Winchester Model 70, not a custom rifle so manufacturing of these rifles vary greatly depending on the batch they came from. If the rifle chamber is "tight" it will allow for very little "over expansion" in the chamber, causing cracked cases if you exceed the max PSI for a certain load.

I have learned that the chamber in my rifle is "tight" which is good, part of the reason my rifle shoots the way it does, but does not allow for much vairance when it comes to max loads. That beings said, my rifle shooting .44" at 100 yards with a speed of 2800 fps, seems reasonable with a 150 gr bullet now. Knowing that I can't get much higher becasue of pressure issues.

To confirm this, I just got some 130 gr SSTs that I will load for my brothers .270 WIN. I'm going to try several loads just under max (around the 64,000 PSI range) and see how much faster the rounds will be. I'm expecting they will be around 3100-3200, without over pressure issues. I've never shot 130s through this rifle, so it will be interesting to see what happens. I can't imagine that they shoot as well as the .44" that the 150's provided, but I will keep you posted.

Pretty cool to learn these things as I go along. Hope this is helping someone avoid the same problems I have encountered.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: lablover on July 31, 2014, 02:58:05 PM
Well, I shot some 130 SST's at 65gr with IMR 7828. Had a speed of 3256 fps, and no pressure issues. So through this process, I learned that I was trying to push the 150gr bullets too fast and having to much PSI in the case. I also leanred that my lands is at 2.85". I as shooting my good groups at 2.80" so I figured I would try and get closer to the the lands reducing the "jump," so I extended them to 2.80". That was a mistake. It opened my groups up from .5-.6" to .9-1". Back to 2.80" OAL I go. I was also fortunate enough to find and buy 200 rounds of the 150gr SST's. Lucky me!
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: EDT on October 29, 2014, 10:08:47 PM
Great thread.  good info.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: Caretaker on April 28, 2016, 11:49:57 PM
The RL22 is temperature sensitive, I stopped using it for that reason, cold/hot days would get inconsistent results.  I posted an extensive spreadsheet with the various loads and group sizes, it's somewhere on here, let me see if I can find it and link it.  I use RL17 or Magro in my loads for the 270wsm.  130gr Barnes TTSX, CCI250, 73.5 Magpro, 2.76 COAL, 3240 fps, submoa.
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: Caretaker on April 29, 2016, 12:08:59 AM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,59581.msg736580/topicseen.html#msg736580
Title: Re: Model 70 .270 WSM load exploration
Post by: GUHunter on May 07, 2016, 10:07:50 PM
I've done a lot of research on 270 wsm loads and although rifles have their own tastes, a load that showed up a lot was a 140 accubond with Retumbo. Most favored something in the 69-71 grain range. I'm working on a load in this range and have seen promising potential so far.
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