Post by: richardt on June 22, 2014, 01:28:45 PM
I went out with Chad as DOug was out of town, he planted a pigeon and a Chukar. The wind wasn't very good yesterday, and it was pretty warm out, so Drake was panting a bit and breathing through his mouth, rather than his nose. But he was able to find the pigeon, and held point until Chad "flushed" it by releasing the bird while kicking the bush, Drake tried to chase the bird, but came up empty handed of course, which was the whole point. We then went to find the Chukar, Drake found and held point, and for a little while after the Chukar broke cover and was standing in the open, Drake finally broke and the bird took off, found cover again, and we went to look for it (I didn't shoot as he was a little low and Drake was too close). Both Chad and I walked towards where we saw him land, and walked right past him, looked back and there was Drake on point wondering what the heck we were going.
He held point until the bird flushed, I knocked it down, and he retrieved it promptly. Chad then took the bird and tossed it in the pond a couple of times to get Drake to do some water retrieves, which he did like a champ, though we'll have to work on getting him to do a full retrieve, as he kept dropping the bird as he shook himself off, and didn't complete the retrieve.
I entered Drake this coming weekend for the first two of his four JH legs for AKC, and if he performs for me then, the way he did yesterday, I think he'll do well.
Here is a link to a video I took yesterday, though you won't see the Chukar escapades except for the water retrieves as I was busy trying to shoot my 12 ga instead of the camera ;).
I had brought my waterproof enclosure for my GoPro accidentally, and didn't record any good sound, so I put in some music instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAqA-oF7d50 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAqA-oF7d50)
Generally after 3 weeks or a month of training, what do you guys expect to see in your dogs? Just so I have an idea if Drake is doing well, thanks.
Post by: RC3 on June 22, 2014, 09:29:01 PM
Post by: ghosthunter on June 23, 2014, 03:37:30 PM
I think in JH he will have to deliver to hand. Judges will have a line that he has to carry the bird across before you can take it. If he drops it and you pick up off the ground you will get a zero for the retrieve. :dunno:
Deliver to hand = cross the line with bird in his mouth and you take it from his mouth.
Post by: wildweeds on June 23, 2014, 06:34:53 PM
Nice.
I think in JH he will have to deliver to hand. Judges will have a line that he has to carry the bird across before you can take it. If he drops it and you pick up off the ground you will get a zero for the retrieve. :dunno:
Deliver to hand = cross the line with bird in his mouth and you take it from his mouth.
Post by: AspenBud on June 24, 2014, 08:52:48 AM
JH requirements for pointing breeds do not require a retrieve.The birds are blanked,dog needs to handle,search and point for not that long,I can't remember exactly but it seems the length of point is in seconds.
:yeah:
All JH really indicates is the dog has some pointing instinct and an interest in birds.
As others have said, three weeks isn't a lot of time so if you're expecting a world class gun dog after that you'll be disappointed.
The dog does however seem to be progressing fine. Don't get too bent if the dog needs to be led into birds at the moment, experience (as in bumped birds) will teach the dog over time and to be honest, bone dry conditions like that are not ideal for scenting.
Post by: richardt on June 24, 2014, 12:08:56 PM
I'll let you all know how he does this coming weekend at the trials, hopefully he'll have two passing grades under his belt!
Sent from my iPhone
Post by: wildweeds on June 24, 2014, 04:18:21 PM
Thanks guys, yeah, after 3 weeks, I definitely wasn't expecting him to be steady to point, flush, wing, shot and fall, but as some of you have said, he seems to me to be on the right track for how long he's been training, I just wasn't sure and was curious as to your own experiences.
I'll let you all know how he does this coming weekend at the trials, hopefully he'll have two passing grades under his belt!
Sent from my iPhone
Post by: AspenBud on June 24, 2014, 05:14:05 PM
Being broke to Wing and shot,has always and will always include the fall, The Nasty NSTRA boys are the ones who introduced this "And Fall" buisness.Thanks guys, yeah, after 3 weeks, I definitely wasn't expecting him to be steady to point, flush, wing, shot and fall, but as some of you have said, he seems to me to be on the right track for how long he's been training, I just wasn't sure and was curious as to your own experiences.
I'll let you all know how he does this coming weekend at the trials, hopefully he'll have two passing grades under his belt!
Sent from my iPhone
I'm not sure NSTRA even requires being broke to the shot.
Post by: wildweeds on June 24, 2014, 07:20:20 PM
Being broke to Wing and shot,has always and will always include the fall, The Nasty NSTRA boys are the ones who introduced this "And Fall" buisness.Thanks guys, yeah, after 3 weeks, I definitely wasn't expecting him to be steady to point, flush, wing, shot and fall, but as some of you have said, he seems to me to be on the right track for how long he's been training, I just wasn't sure and was curious as to your own experiences.
I'll let you all know how he does this coming weekend at the trials, hopefully he'll have two passing grades under his belt!
Sent from my iPhone
I'm not sure NSTRA even requires being broke to the shot.
Post by: jetjockey on June 24, 2014, 07:58:31 PM
You missed it Bud, they can't train a dog to be steady to wing and shot,so they settle for "steady to wing" they seem to think that because the dog waits for the report of the gun to break that it is "Steady to wing and shot" if the dog doesn't move until phisically released with a tap behind the head or a voice command after the fall of the bird,that is "Steady to wing,shot AND fall" FWIW...........Most other trial dogs are flyaway blank gun broke and would come unglued with the fall of a bird.90% of dogs are trained with the flyaway method because birds are hard to find and expensive.Being broke to Wing and shot,has always and will always include the fall, The Nasty NSTRA boys are the ones who introduced this "And Fall" buisness.Thanks guys, yeah, after 3 weeks, I definitely wasn't expecting him to be steady to point, flush, wing, shot and fall, but as some of you have said, he seems to me to be on the right track for how long he's been training, I just wasn't sure and was curious as to your own experiences.
I'll let you all know how he does this coming weekend at the trials, hopefully he'll have two passing grades under his belt!
Sent from my iPhone
I'm not sure NSTRA even requires being broke to the shot.
Post by: wildweeds on June 24, 2014, 08:22:37 PM
Maybe in the PNW, but I assure you, in other parts of the country, the top trial dogs have lots of birds killed over them.You missed it Bud, they can't train a dog to be steady to wing and shot,so they settle for "steady to wing" they seem to think that because the dog waits for the report of the gun to break that it is "Steady to wing and shot" if the dog doesn't move until phisically released with a tap behind the head or a voice command after the fall of the bird,that is "Steady to wing,shot AND fall" FWIW...........Most other trial dogs are flyaway blank gun broke and would come unglued with the fall of a bird.90% of dogs are trained with the flyaway method because birds are hard to find and expensive.Being broke to Wing and shot,has always and will always include the fall, The Nasty NSTRA boys are the ones who introduced this "And Fall" buisness.Thanks guys, yeah, after 3 weeks, I definitely wasn't expecting him to be steady to point, flush, wing, shot and fall, but as some of you have said, he seems to me to be on the right track for how long he's been training, I just wasn't sure and was curious as to your own experiences.
I'll let you all know how he does this coming weekend at the trials, hopefully he'll have two passing grades under his belt!
Sent from my iPhone
I'm not sure NSTRA even requires being broke to the shot.
Post by: wildweeds on June 24, 2014, 09:11:32 PM
http://youtu.be/jhDMGbFkoQc (http://youtu.be/jhDMGbFkoQc)
Post by: wildweeds on June 24, 2014, 10:19:00 PM
Post by: AspenBud on June 24, 2014, 11:13:07 PM
You missed it Bud, they can't train a dog to be steady to wing and shot,so they settle for "steady to wing" they seem to think that because the dog waits for the report of the gun to break that it is "Steady to wing and shot" if the dog doesn't move until phisically released with a tap behind the head or a voice command after the fall of the bird,that is "Steady to wing,shot AND fall" FWIW...........Most other trial dogs are flyaway blank gun broke and would come unglued with the fall of a bird.90% of dogs are trained with the flyaway method because birds are hard to find and expensive.Being broke to Wing and shot,has always and will always include the fall, The Nasty NSTRA boys are the ones who introduced this "And Fall" buisness.Thanks guys, yeah, after 3 weeks, I definitely wasn't expecting him to be steady to point, flush, wing, shot and fall, but as some of you have said, he seems to me to be on the right track for how long he's been training, I just wasn't sure and was curious as to your own experiences.
I'll let you all know how he does this coming weekend at the trials, hopefully he'll have two passing grades under his belt!
Sent from my iPhone
I'm not sure NSTRA even requires being broke to the shot.
In fairness, I've seen some guys who compete in NSTRA justify breaking at the shot as a way for the dogs to better find downed birds. Not sure if I agree with that but then again I don't train to a high level either since I don't trial my dogs. Just know what I've been told by some who play that game.
Post by: AspenBud on June 24, 2014, 11:18:10 PM
Not a single dog on the praries of canada or the northern prarieof the US get birds killed over them at summer camp Jet,if they are being killed it is done illegally,On the praries kill pigeons are not used as they are tough to find supply wise, they do yardwork/roading until the pursuit season and then get blanked over on wild birds..... My statement still stands at 90% the other 10% are the ones me and you agree on,they are the top 10 percent of trial dogs.Maybe in the PNW, but I assure you, in other parts of the country, the top trial dogs have lots of birds killed over them.You missed it Bud, they can't train a dog to be steady to wing and shot,so they settle for "steady to wing" they seem to think that because the dog waits for the report of the gun to break that it is "Steady to wing and shot" if the dog doesn't move until phisically released with a tap behind the head or a voice command after the fall of the bird,that is "Steady to wing,shot AND fall" FWIW...........Most other trial dogs are flyaway blank gun broke and would come unglued with the fall of a bird.90% of dogs are trained with the flyaway method because birds are hard to find and expensive.Being broke to Wing and shot,has always and will always include the fall, The Nasty NSTRA boys are the ones who introduced this "And Fall" buisness.Thanks guys, yeah, after 3 weeks, I definitely wasn't expecting him to be steady to point, flush, wing, shot and fall, but as some of you have said, he seems to me to be on the right track for how long he's been training, I just wasn't sure and was curious as to your own experiences.
I'll let you all know how he does this coming weekend at the trials, hopefully he'll have two passing grades under his belt!
Sent from my iPhone
I'm not sure NSTRA even requires being broke to the shot.
Dogs trained for coverdog events have plenty of training birds shot over them. When the time comes to train on the real thing however it's blank guns all of the way.
Post by: richardt on June 24, 2014, 11:22:04 PM
This was my dog last summer at 45 days,about halfway in the training process for wing and shot. He was 18 months old at the time http://youtu.be/QU3AhxZO5u0 (http://youtu.be/QU3AhxZO5u0)
30 actual training days, This dog is being broke for horseback field trials,this is the begining stage of the wing shot process.
http://youtu.be/jhDMGbFkoQc (http://youtu.be/jhDMGbFkoQc)
Thanks for sharing those vids, your dog looked very steady! I can only imagine what he looked like when he was done, and he had such a pretty point!
I call my trainer every week, and when I call him tomorrow, I'm going to ask when will he start a similar process to get Drake steady like that. I know he does that eventually, but I didn't realize you could steady a dog so well after only 4-6 weeks, and I want to make sure he starts sooner rather than later on him. There's nothing that scares me worse is a dog that immediately starts chasing birds when they're flushed, it's asking for trouble if the dog were to jump up or something right as you shot. I want Drake to eventually hold steady until after I release him to retrieve.
Sent from my iPhone
Post by: jetjockey on June 25, 2014, 01:59:21 AM
Not a single dog on the praries of canada or the northern prarieof the US get birds killed over them at summer camp Jet,if they are being killed it is done illegally,On the praries kill pigeons are not used as they are tough to find supply wise, they do yardwork/roading until the pursuit season and then get blanked over on wild birds..... My statement still stands at 90% the other 10% are the ones me and you agree on,they are the top 10 percent of trial dogs.
Ever heard of winter camp? Many of the top Pros head South in the winter to South GA and TX to hunt quail during the winter. They Legally kill tons of birds over them. I stand by by statement. Maybe in the PNW, but in other parts of the country, trial dogs get lots of birds killed over them.
Besides, in SD, Sharptail season opens the second week of Sept, so your wrong that dogs at summer camps don't get birds shot over them. My buddies use the sharptail opener as an excuse to go to summer camp and hunt their trial dogs just before trial season. Depending on my schedule, I'm hopefully going to do it this year as well.
Post by: AspenBud on June 25, 2014, 07:38:33 AM
Not a single dog on the praries of canada or the northern prarieof the US get birds killed over them at summer camp Jet,if they are being killed it is done illegally,On the praries kill pigeons are not used as they are tough to find supply wise, they do yardwork/roading until the pursuit season and then get blanked over on wild birds..... My statement still stands at 90% the other 10% are the ones me and you agree on,they are the top 10 percent of trial dogs.
Ever heard of winter camp? Many of the top Pros head South in the winter to South GA and TX to hunt quail during the winter. They Legally kill tons of birds over them. I stand by by statement. Maybe in the PNW, but in other parts of the country, trial dogs get lots of birds killed over them.
Besides, in SD, Sharptail season opens the second week of Sept, so your wrong that dogs at summer camps don't get birds shot over them. My buddies use the sharptail opener as an excuse to go to summer camp and hunt their trial dogs just before trial season. Depending on my schedule, I'm hopefully going to do it this year as well.
I'm going to hope the trainers are living on the birds they shoot then. That's a lot of dead birds depending on how many dogs go to winter camp. It's also unnecessary for dogs preparing for trials with no retrieving requirement and even those that are will only be going after pen raised poultry.
Post by: jetjockey on June 25, 2014, 07:52:29 AM
Post by: AspenBud on June 25, 2014, 08:57:34 AM
They aren't killing many birds, but the dogs are seeing a few birds killed. I was just disputing the fact that Wild said not a single dog sees a bird killed over them at Summer Camps. That's not true. It happens on a fairly regular basis. Also, many of the fall trials in the Midwest are wild bird trials. The first major Championship in the brittany world is the Chicken Championship held in the Sandhills of NE. It is a completely wild bird trial and no birds of any kind are released. The dogs see a lot of wild birds in the fall circuits in the Midwest and South.
Coverdog is run 100% on ruffed grouse and woodcock. No birds get shot.
The guys that I've chatted with who sent dogs to places like AZ for winter training were more concerned about bird contacts and keeping the dogs working in the off season than having many shot over them. Given a choice they would rather have had the dogs on grouse, but when the winter snows come that's not feasible out there so they send them south until the quiet seasons end, typically around mid July.
Post by: Bluemoon on June 25, 2014, 10:00:42 AM
Wild I agree with you, for here in the NW I would say at least 80% of the trial dogs do not hunt real birds. The ones that do are the ones that are kicking you know what at the trials.
Post by: AspenBud on June 25, 2014, 10:35:29 AM
Our summer camp in North Central Montana that starts Aug. 1st consists of Wild Birds (pursuit Season) in the morning. Than Planted birds (Chukar & Pheasant) in the afternoon. We have 150 Chukar and 75 Pheasant allocated this year for 20 dogs. We train all of ours to be steady to Wing and Shot. If you hunt covey birds such as Sharpies and Huns they have to be steady!!!
Wild I agree with you, for here in the NW I would say at least 80% of the trial dogs do not hunt real birds. The ones that do are the ones that are kicking you know what at the trials.
Do you mean they aren't run on wild birds in trials or that they aren't hunted at all on the real deal? If it's the latter that's a pretty shocking statistic.
Post by: jetjockey on June 25, 2014, 10:44:44 AM
Post by: AspenBud on June 25, 2014, 10:59:21 AM
I think he means the latter. And I agree, it's suprising. It's not that way everywhere.
I remember people suggesting that field trial dogs weren't hunted with when I lived in the Midwest and the Coverdog guys would about come unglued as not only were their dogs competing on wild game birds they were personal gun dogs for many as well.
Post by: richardt on June 25, 2014, 11:09:18 AM
for here in the NW I would say at least 80% of the trial dogs do not hunt real birds. The ones that do are the ones that are kicking you know what at the trials.
So are you saying that 80% of those dog at the trials, are trained just for trials? If they are, that's incredible. Why go through all that time and effort to train a bird dog, if you're not training it with the purpose of hunting it?
I mean, I'm going to participate in trials, but only as an aside, and to help "prove" Drakes abilities/trainability in case I end up trying to breed him. My main purpose of training him is to have a hunting dog/buddy. Anything else is just a secondary benefit.
Sent from my iPhone
Post by: AspenBud on June 25, 2014, 04:58:38 PM
for here in the NW I would say at least 80% of the trial dogs do not hunt real birds. The ones that do are the ones that are kicking you know what at the trials.
So are you saying that 80% of those dog at the trials, are trained just for trials? If they are, that's incredible. Why go through all that time and effort to train a bird dog, if you're not training it with the purpose of hunting it?
I mean, I'm going to participate in trials, but only as an aside, and to help "prove" Drakes abilities/trainability in case I end up trying to breed him. My main purpose of training him is to have a hunting dog/buddy. Anything else is just a secondary benefit.
Sent from my iPhone
If you're doing AKC hunt tests and NAVHDA you are not competing in field trials.
The deal with hunting and field trials is you have to understand that in order for the dog to make a name for itself and advance to bigger events it has to be campaigned and that means it spends a lot of time on the road going to event after event. For a lot of guys deeply into that it's all about the game and the dogs, hunting is secondary.
It's a broad brush statement, but it's also important to realize that at the top level you have lawyers, doctors...people with money, who basically buy a dog and pay a trainer/field trialer to train up the dog and campaign it for them. They want the bragging rights, trophies, and ribbons. Some like to take that same dog hunting, some like to watch it at the trials they can attend, some like both.
Post by: richardt on June 25, 2014, 06:14:31 PM
for here in the NW I would say at least 80% of the trial dogs do not hunt real birds. The ones that do are the ones that are kicking you know what at the trials.
So are you saying that 80% of those dog at the trials, are trained just for trials? If they are, that's incredible. Why go through all that time and effort to train a bird dog, if you're not training it with the purpose of hunting it?
I mean, I'm going to participate in trials, but only as an aside, and to help "prove" Drakes abilities/trainability in case I end up trying to breed him. My main purpose of training him is to have a hunting dog/buddy. Anything else is just a secondary benefit.
Sent from my iPhone
If you're doing AKC hunt tests and NAVHDA you are not competing in field trials.
The deal with hunting and field trials is you have to understand that in order for the dog to make a name for itself and advance to bigger events it has to be campaigned and that means it spends a lot of time on the road going to event after event. For a lot of guys deeply into that it's all about the game and the dogs, hunting is secondary.
It's a broad brush statement, but it's also important to realize that at the top level you have lawyers, doctors...people with money, who basically buy a dog and pay a trainer/field trialer to train up the dog and campaign it for them. They want the bragging rights, trophies, and ribbons. Some like to take that same dog hunting, some like to watch it at the trials they can attend, some like both.
Huh, I thought they were all types of "field trials", but I'm new to this ;)
As for those who do as you explained, to each his own I guess...
Sent from my iPhone
Post by: jetjockey on June 25, 2014, 06:26:50 PM
Then you have people like me. Poor bastages who get lucky with a dog who can compete, and then become even more broke! ;-). If I was wealthy, I'd have several trial dogs that I hunt as well. For me, it's about the dogs and the bird work. AsI get older, killing birds comes secondary.
Post by: richardt on June 25, 2014, 06:27:34 PM
for here in the NW I would say at least 80% of the trial dogs do not hunt real birds. The ones that do are the ones that are kicking you know what at the trials.
So are you saying that 80% of those dog at the trials, are trained just for trials? If they are, that's incredible. Why go through all that time and effort to train a bird dog, if you're not training it with the purpose of hunting it?
I mean, I'm going to participate in trials, but only as an aside, and to help "prove" Drakes abilities/trainability in case I end up trying to breed him. My main purpose of training him is to have a hunting dog/buddy. Anything else is just a secondary benefit.
Sent from my iPhone
If you're doing AKC hunt tests and NAVHDA you are not competing in field trials.
The deal with hunting and field trials is you have to understand that in order for the dog to make a name for itself and advance to bigger events it has to be campaigned and that means it spends a lot of time on the road going to event after event. For a lot of guys deeply into that it's all about the game and the dogs, hunting is secondary.
It's a broad brush statement, but it's also important to realize that at the top level you have lawyers, doctors...people with money, who basically buy a dog and pay a trainer/field trialer to train up the dog and campaign it for them. They want the bragging rights, trophies, and ribbons. Some like to take that same dog hunting, some like to watch it at the trials they can attend, some like both.
Huh, I thought they were all types of "field trials", but I'm new to this ;)
As for those who do as you explained, to each his own I guess...
Sent from my iPhone
Post by: AspenBud on June 26, 2014, 07:51:41 AM
for here in the NW I would say at least 80% of the trial dogs do not hunt real birds. The ones that do are the ones that are kicking you know what at the trials.
So are you saying that 80% of those dog at the trials, are trained just for trials? If they are, that's incredible. Why go through all that time and effort to train a bird dog, if you're not training it with the purpose of hunting it?
I mean, I'm going to participate in trials, but only as an aside, and to help "prove" Drakes abilities/trainability in case I end up trying to breed him. My main purpose of training him is to have a hunting dog/buddy. Anything else is just a secondary benefit.
Sent from my iPhone
If you're doing AKC hunt tests and NAVHDA you are not competing in field trials.
The deal with hunting and field trials is you have to understand that in order for the dog to make a name for itself and advance to bigger events it has to be campaigned and that means it spends a lot of time on the road going to event after event. For a lot of guys deeply into that it's all about the game and the dogs, hunting is secondary.
It's a broad brush statement, but it's also important to realize that at the top level you have lawyers, doctors...people with money, who basically buy a dog and pay a trainer/field trialer to train up the dog and campaign it for them. They want the bragging rights, trophies, and ribbons. Some like to take that same dog hunting, some like to watch it at the trials they can attend, some like both.
Huh, I thought they were all types of "field trials", but I'm new to this ;)
As for those who do as you explained, to each his own I guess...
Sent from my iPhone
Hunt tests are hunt tests, field trials are field trials. One measures the quality of dogs according to a standard, the other is looking for the extreme and can be more subjective.
Field trial dogs are generally going to be a whole lot more dog in terms of range and run. You won't see a show Pointer that earns an MH at a hunt test running in American Field, they just don't have the drive or physical ability to keep up.
Which is better can be debated. Both help people produce quality dogs.
Post by: wildweeds on June 29, 2014, 03:05:04 PM
Post by: JODakota on June 29, 2014, 04:13:08 PM
30 actual training days, This dog is being broke for horseback field trials,this is the begining stage of the wing shot process.
http://youtu.be/jhDMGbFkoQc (http://youtu.be/jhDMGbFkoQc)
That is what my dog has been going through, my Britt has been with RJ for 4 months now, picking him up on the 14th. I'm pretty sure he still won't be completely finished and will be back there again at the end of this years season. Breaking and finishing a dog takes time.