Post by: pd on June 22, 2014, 09:22:22 PM
The peels on this tree were extremely fresh. They started about 18 inches from the ground, and go to about 4' above the ground. Do you notice the "claw marks" (if that is what they are) are in pairs? They are not deep, like a bear claw's mark.
What critter did this?
Post by: Romulus1297 on June 22, 2014, 09:27:07 PM
Post by: grundy53 on June 22, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
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Post by: bearbaito6 on June 23, 2014, 07:28:45 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on June 23, 2014, 07:31:00 PM
Post by: grundy53 on June 23, 2014, 07:33:31 PM
BearWhat about all of the matched sets of teeth marks the size of porquipine teeth all over the peel????
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Post by: grundy53 on June 23, 2014, 07:34:52 PM
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Post by: bearbaito6 on June 23, 2014, 08:21:15 PM
Post by: h20hunter on June 23, 2014, 08:35:35 PM
Not porky us my vote.
Post by: bowhunterwa87 on June 23, 2014, 08:46:26 PM
Post by: pd on June 23, 2014, 09:10:49 PM
Less filling!
OK, guys. Which is it?
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on June 23, 2014, 09:19:15 PM
Post by: grundy53 on June 23, 2014, 09:22:29 PM
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Post by: pd on June 23, 2014, 09:24:47 PM
Post by: grundy53 on June 23, 2014, 09:29:34 PM
Grundy, I don't know the first thing about porcupines (never seen one before), but those are not bear claw marks. Are those paired marks the front teeth of a porky, dragging on the bark pulp?Yes. They have little beaver teeth. I've killed a lot of porkies. As a matter of fact I found a couple really fresh peels a few weeks ago that had those same teeth marks and a few quils laying around.
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Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on June 23, 2014, 09:29:57 PM
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on June 23, 2014, 09:31:48 PM
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on June 23, 2014, 09:34:56 PM
Post by: grundy53 on June 23, 2014, 09:35:58 PM
Grundy, where did you find the porkies. Not much damage here where I live from porkies if any at all. I discussed this with a couple of the biologists and was surprised to find out we do not have much damage from them in the Skagit or Olympics.Most of the ones I've killed were in Pacific county. The recent peels I found were in Snohomish county.
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Post by: grundy53 on June 23, 2014, 09:41:32 PM
Here is what I have been told Porkie damage looks like, smaller length digs in the pulp and bark.Most of the ones I've found look like bear peels. Except they have small teeth marks. They also often go higher into the tree. Basically big claw/teeth marks= bear. Small teeth = Porky.
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Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on June 23, 2014, 09:44:46 PM
Here is what I have been told Porkie damage looks like, smaller length digs in the pulp and bark.Most of the ones I've found look like bear peels. Except they have small teeth marks. They also often go higher into the tree. Basically big claw/teeth marks= bear. Small teeth = Porky.
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I've watched bear and porkies peel, mostly in Idaho. Just had never seen any porkies over here and after my conversation with a couple biologists from the tribes and the state I started to wonder if there was any up north here in Wa. Always wanted to get a porkie. :-)
Post by: grundy53 on June 23, 2014, 09:52:02 PM
Post by: grundy53 on June 23, 2014, 09:56:56 PM
Here is what I have been told Porkie damage looks like, smaller length digs in the pulp and bark.Most of the ones I've found look like bear peels. Except they have small teeth marks. They also often go higher into the tree. Basically big claw/teeth marks= bear. Small teeth = Porky.
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I've watched bear and porkies peel, mostly in Idaho. Just had never seen any porkies over here and after my conversation with a couple biologists from the tribes and the state I started to wonder if there was any up north here in Wa. Always wanted to get a porkie. :-)
It's not that fun killing a porky they are really slow and are not very smart. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: The only reason I kill them is because they kill trees. Here is one I killed a couple years ago during elk season.
Post by: McCRIZZLEY on June 23, 2014, 09:59:55 PM
Post by: Evil_EdwardO on June 24, 2014, 12:07:49 PM
http://www.callingbears.com/peels.html (http://www.callingbears.com/peels.html)
Post by: grundy53 on June 24, 2014, 12:19:12 PM
Was going to say porky but after looking at this article, definitely bear.Now go back to that article and look at the pics of the bear peels and look at how far apart the teeth marks are. Then look at how close together the tooth marks are on the OP's peel.
http://www.callingbears.com/peels.html (http://www.callingbears.com/peels.html)
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Post by: elkoholic1 on June 24, 2014, 12:20:21 PM
Post by: stevemiller on June 24, 2014, 12:22:47 PM
Post by: grundy53 on June 24, 2014, 12:43:54 PM
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Post by: singleshot12 on June 24, 2014, 12:48:05 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 24, 2014, 12:58:46 PM
I can't believe how many people think it's a bear peel. There are no claw marks only big rodent teeth marks. Mountain beaver do the same thing only at a smaller scale :hello:
So if a porky did that, did it sink it's upper teeth into the phloem and slide down the trunk like a pole dancer curling off a mouth full? lol
Post by: singleshot12 on June 24, 2014, 01:04:47 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 24, 2014, 01:17:03 PM
The bear will use it's two big K9's at the bottom of the peel to cut a section of bark sideways then lift and peel the bark straight up the tree to expose the soft layer. Then once it get the soft phloem exposed it'll run its teeth up the tree to curl off the soft stuff for some carbohydrates - not a ton of calories but helps get it digestion going.
bears peel the tree according to what works best with their teeth, so they all look a little different..some will kinda get sideways like a dog chewing on a bone or some old bears will use claws then lick the goo off their claw.
I don't know of any video of bears peeling trees, but you look at enough of them you get a pretty good visual how it all happens.
A porky doesn't peel a tree, it chews off small chunks layer by layer exposing the cadmium layer of the tree. It's a lot more precise and less wasteful then a bear. In the #2 pic you see a lot of exposed phloem - a porky wouldn't do that. It would be much cleaner and more likely than not, you would see the gouges (teeth marks) going partially sideways on the tree with short precise cuts, not straight up and down like a bear does, and no long sloppy gouges like you see in pic 2. Bears are horrible on trees, they get very little food from each tree so they go from tree to tree to tree, but a porky finds a tree farm they can go from young tree to young tree destroying a lot too! porkys also like the tender tops and ends and tips of fresh needles. Those soft tufts you see on new doug fir growth.
Porkys eat very similar to a beaver, you ever see a beaver cut a tree by chewing length ways to a tree? they always chew sideways to the tree just like you'd never try to chop a tree in two by sinking your axe length ways into the tree to bite out chunks with your axe blade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDjkF6EZySA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDjkF6EZySA)
Post by: KFhunter on June 24, 2014, 01:27:45 PM
porkys love the younger growth
Post by: grundy53 on June 24, 2014, 01:31:48 PM
those are teeth marks you're looking at, not claw marks.Then there are some very precise and ocd bears. To constantly make two tooth marks precisely one mm apart starting at the same point both times.....
The bear will use it's two big K9's at the bottom of the peel to cut a section of bark sideways then lift and peel the bark straight up the tree to expose the soft layer. Then once it get the soft phloem exposed it'll run its teeth up the tree to curl off the soft stuff for some carbohydrates - not a ton of calories but helps get it digestion going.
bears peel the tree according to what works best with their teeth, so they all look a little different..some will kinda get sideways like a dog chewing on a bone or some old bears will use claws then lick the goo off their claw.
I don't know of any video of bears peeling trees, but you look at enough of them you get a pretty good visual how it all happens.
A porky doesn't peel a tree, it chews off small chunks layer by layer exposing the cadmium layer of the tree. It's a lot more precise and less wasteful then a bear. In the #2 pic you see a lot of exposed phloem - a porky wouldn't do that. It would be much cleaner and more likely than not, you would see the gouges (teeth marks) going partially sideways on the tree with short precise cuts, not straight up and down like a bear does, and no long sloppy gouges like you see in pic 2. Bears are horrible on trees, they get very little food from each tree so they go from tree to tree to tree destroying far more than a porky does in it's lifetime. porkys also like the tender tops and ends and tips of fresh needles. Those soft tufts you see on new doug fir growth.
Porkys eat very similar to a beaver, you ever see a beaver cut a tree by chewing length ways to a tree? they always chew sideways to the tree just like you'd never try to chop a tree in two by sinking your axe length ways into the tree to bite out chunks with your axe blade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDjkF6EZySA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDjkF6EZySA)
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Post by: KFhunter on June 24, 2014, 01:34:18 PM
Post by: grundy53 on June 24, 2014, 02:00:24 PM
those are two teeth precisely 1mm apart, when it peeled in pic #2 there were two teeth being drug through the soft layer of the tree.Don't get me wrong. I agree with what you said above. But I just think this time of the year the bark peels easier so they take bigger chunks off. Also things might be different between porkies over on the dry side and porkies here.
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Post by: Evil_EdwardO on June 24, 2014, 03:34:34 PM
Was going to say porky but after looking at this article, definitely bear.Now go back to that article and look at the pics of the bear peels and look at how far apart the teeth marks are. Then look at how close together the tooth marks are on the OP's peel.
http://www.callingbears.com/peels.html (http://www.callingbears.com/peels.html)
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Well if you look at the long strips of bark on the ground in the OP picture it would be a bear. There is no way a porky is stripping long strips like that. Like what KF said unless that porky is grabbing the bark and sliding down the tree (he was talking about teeth marks but same concept.) Porkys are going to leave chunks of bark not those long strips of bark on the ground.
Post by: ghosthunter on June 24, 2014, 03:40:32 PM
The Porky peels I found in Twisp area were low to the ground and they girdled several trees all the way around. The teeth marks were around the tree. :twocents:
Post by: sled on June 24, 2014, 04:24:16 PM
Post by: bearbaito6 on June 24, 2014, 07:01:20 PM
Post by: fast1 on June 27, 2014, 08:30:38 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on June 27, 2014, 09:08:28 PM
Here is what I have been told Porkie damage looks like, smaller length digs in the pulp and bark.
Porky
Post by: billythekidrock on June 27, 2014, 09:08:48 PM
From this weekend's hike.
The peels on this tree were extremely fresh. They started about 18 inches from the ground, and go to about 4' above the ground. Do you notice the "claw marks" (if that is what they are) are in pairs? They are not deep, like a bear claw's mark.
What critter did this?
Bear
Post by: pd on June 27, 2014, 10:27:04 PM
Porky
Bear
You, Sir, are being very unhelpful
Post by: billythekidrock on June 27, 2014, 10:30:50 PM
Porky
Bear
You, Sir, are being very unhelpful
How so?
Post by: billythekidrock on June 27, 2014, 10:33:38 PM
Bears do not use their claws to scrape the cambium, they use their teeth. They open their mouth and run their teeth up and down the tree to scrape the cambium into their mouth.
Now imagine the “scraping stroke” (for lack of a better term) of a bear and how far up and down the tree it can scrape compared to a porcupine, if a porky were to scrape (they chew).
A porcupine is not going to be able to make one continuous stroke like seen in this pic. Some of these are a good 12 inches long.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2Fmedium%2F1443PICT0032web.jpg&hash=16322a335d5d10ed758743fc6685d73c01bdf2d6)
I took the following pics this evening to demonstrate how only a couple of the incisors actually touch the tree when scraping. These teeth are slightly loose in the skull so they moved a little, which might not happen with a live bear and remember that the scrape patterns will change slightly depending on the age and size of the bear and shape of its teeth.
Top down
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2FIMG_09546.JPG&hash=21e5f539ab860e7aba1f40c33c1ca5ec7fb03fc8)
Top
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2FIMG_09584.JPG&hash=fd27566b0146113f81b790488f68a50f4163fd4d)
Bottom up
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2FIMG_095510.JPG&hash=98735a24b051a0890feb918d4a12b5232801ca11)
Bottom
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2FIMG_09569.JPG&hash=13626866c368be048406e8da331605ade54c1085)
Post by: grundy53 on June 27, 2014, 11:23:53 PM
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Post by: billythekidrock on June 27, 2014, 11:27:35 PM
Post by: pd on June 28, 2014, 02:29:20 PM
Very informative. Have we all agreed this was a bear's doing, not the handiwork of a porcupine?
Post by: fullpipe77 on June 29, 2014, 09:59:01 AM