Post by: Bulldozer77 on June 26, 2014, 07:15:20 AM
Sad. Sorry to all who drew tags for Margaret and Toutle.
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 26, 2014, 07:34:40 AM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155822.0.html (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155822.0.html)
Post by: Curly on June 26, 2014, 08:28:11 AM
Post by: Bulldozer77 on June 26, 2014, 08:54:51 AM
Post by: Bulldozer77 on June 26, 2014, 08:55:58 AM
I'm glad I didn't waste points applying for hoof rot elk in SW WA. But, I would volunteer to go down and shoot some hoof deformed elk and deliver them to a food bank. :twocents::yeah:
Post by: Tbob on June 26, 2014, 09:09:00 AM
Post by: bobcat on June 26, 2014, 09:21:23 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 26, 2014, 09:23:47 AM
I don't see how the killing of sick elk really affects people hunting in those areas this year. The elk that will be killed prior to the hunting season are ones that a hunter wouldn't want anyway, and these sick elk may not have survived until hunting season anyway.
There will be fewer elk than ever before. This stuff is spreading fast.
Post by: bobcat on June 26, 2014, 09:26:11 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 26, 2014, 09:31:15 AM
Yes there will definitely be fewer elk due to the hoof disease, but I'm just saying hunters were already aware of that prior to purchasing tags and special permit applications. This is exactly why I bought an east side tag this year.
I think most people have no idea of how badly this has affected the Mt. St. Helens herd. It's huge. I think that's precisely why the announcement from the WDFW came out after the draw.
Post by: Curly on June 26, 2014, 09:38:50 AM
Yes there will definitely be fewer elk due to the hoof disease, but I'm just saying hunters were already aware of that prior to purchasing tags and special permit applications. This is exactly why I bought an east side tag this year.
Yes, but not everyone were as informed as the guys on this forum or other guys that have been paying attention to the various news releases. I could see where maybe a guy had drawn a Toutle tag in 2007 and had pretty good success there and saw lots of elk might have applied and drawn this year and will be surprised at the reduced amount of elk and the increase in limpers. I guess that is there fault for not paying attention, but it does seem like wdfw could have warned people of the possible euthanizing prior to hunting season...........maybe had something listed in the regs by the elk permit section. :dunno:
Post by: bobcat on June 26, 2014, 09:42:34 AM
But really I can't imagine a hunter not being aware of the issue with hoof disease, even if he doesn't spend time on this site.
It's been in the newspapers and the WDFW has put out news releases prior to the decision to kill off the most severely affected elk.
All I'm saying is I'm pretty sure this wasn't methodically planned to keep people in the dark so they'd spend their money on elk tags. The wdfw is trying to do the right thing and still people find something to complain about.
Post by: Curly on June 26, 2014, 09:45:59 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 26, 2014, 09:53:40 AM
I don't see how the killing of sick elk really affects people hunting in those areas this year. The elk that will be killed prior to the hunting season are ones that a hunter wouldn't want to harvest anyway, and these sick elk may not have survived until hunting season even if the WDFW hadn't decided to go in and kill them.Maybe those sicklies are what's keeping the cougars and other predators fed. If you go kill off a big chunk of kitty chow now, what are those cats going to be eating in the weeks after? The healthy elk that the hunters do want to harvest. Plus you get the added benefit of the herd being pressured by humans well before the season.
Post by: bobcat on June 26, 2014, 09:53:52 AM
There will still be plenty of hoof rot elk to hunt by the time hunting season comes around.
Just be sure to buy your Weyerhaeuser pass. :tup: :chuckle:
Post by: bobcat on June 26, 2014, 09:56:24 AM
I don't see how the killing of sick elk really affects people hunting in those areas this year. The elk that will be killed prior to the hunting season are ones that a hunter wouldn't want to harvest anyway, and these sick elk may not have survived until hunting season even if the WDFW hadn't decided to go in and kill them.Maybe those sicklies are what's keeping the cougars and other predators fed. If you go kill off a big chunk of kitty chow now, what are those cats going to be eating in the weeks after? The healthy elk that the hunters do want to harvest. Plus you get the added benefit of the herd being pressured by humans well before the season.
Definitely not an ideal situation. Like I said, I bought an east side elk tag this year, and I haven't done that since 2005. I doubt I'll ever hunt the west side again (for elk) unless I draw a multi season tag.
Post by: Curly on June 26, 2014, 10:04:02 AM
Post by: bobcat on June 26, 2014, 10:07:34 AM
Post by: Curly on June 26, 2014, 10:12:07 AM
They are in a tough position, no doubt, but that is what they get for dragging their feet for 18+ years.
Why couldn't they decide to start wacking hoof deformed and limping elk 5+ years ago? It is so sad to see elk suffering like that, I can't believe they didn't start wacking them years ago.
They really probably ought to open up the Toutle and Margaret to general season and get the population dwindled down even more. The less elk there is, the less the bacteria will be spread I would think.
Post by: Curly on June 26, 2014, 10:16:37 AM
Post by: bobcat on June 26, 2014, 10:16:51 AM
Post by: Curly on June 26, 2014, 10:21:23 AM
:chuckle:
Post by: bbarnes on June 26, 2014, 10:33:30 AM
Post by: _TONY_ on June 26, 2014, 12:02:41 PM
Just my :twocents:
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 26, 2014, 12:05:20 PM
Even if they informed hunters about this, the wdfw would have still had the same application $$ coming in...People would have just applied elsewhere
Just my :twocents:
Right, they would have had a chance to apply elsewhere if they'd been informed. That's BBarnes' whole point. Since they didn't find out until after the fact, they have no choice to choose another unit.
Post by: snowpack on June 26, 2014, 12:45:40 PM
Post by: ELKBURGER on June 26, 2014, 01:12:57 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on June 26, 2014, 01:21:22 PM
"Next winter, WDFW will capture and fit elk with radio-collars to determine how the disease is affecting area elk populations, survival rates and calving. Wildlife managers will likely remove elk showing severe symptoms of hoof disease to end their suffering, Pamplin said."
Has there been another, more recent news release saying something different?
Post by: ELKBURGER on June 26, 2014, 01:24:07 PM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on June 26, 2014, 01:27:57 PM
According to the original news release, it isn't planned to happen until next winter, which would be after most, if not all seasons:
"Next winter, WDFW will capture and fit elk with radio-collars to determine how the disease is affecting area elk populations, survival rates and calving. Wildlife managers will likely remove elk showing severe symptoms of hoof disease to end their suffering, Pamplin said."
Has there been another, more recent news release saying something different?
This is from the OP link.
Post by: Curly on June 26, 2014, 01:29:59 PM
I need to retract my badmouthing of wdfw then. I missed that part too about them doing it next winter.
Post by: Bulldozer77 on June 26, 2014, 03:49:30 PM
That is good for the licensed hunters.:yeah:
I need to retract my badmouthing of wdfw then. I missed that part too about them doing it next winter.
I have known about hoof rot for a long time, but I thought they were going to go in there and start shooting up the herds before hunting season. Paying $150 to chase elk around that have been getting shot at in the months leading up to hunting season was just too much for me. I'm glad it'll be after hunting season.
Post by: mfswallace on June 26, 2014, 04:00:03 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on June 26, 2014, 10:22:17 PM
With the unknown cause of disease how can they pass this diseased animal off to food banks?? :yike:I don't think its really an unknown cause...they have suspected bacterial infection of hooves for some time now and it sounds like its pretty clear its this treponeme bacteria. What is perplexing is why it is showing up more frequently than historically. The proximate cause though is still an infection of the hooves that remains limited to the hooves...it is not as though we are finding dead elk laying in a field and wondering how they died...we know what is being affected.
Two other points: if there was any reasonable doubt the meat was not safe they would not provide it to food banks...they've got a panel of 15 top wildlife disease experts/vets/etc. and everyone concurs the meat is safe. They have analyzed all the tissues, filtering organs through necropsies and lab evaluations on hoof rot infected elk and come to the determination after very rigorous review that the meat is safe...the infection is limited to the hooves.
2nd, Livestock with hoof disease are routinely slaughtered and consumed in the US...there does not appear to be any connection between hoof disease and meat...there are rigorous protocols for putting food on the commercial market and if there was a serious risk or concern they would not allow it...so, all of the experts on this panel (15) and the USDA/FDA whoever all concur hoof diseased animals are safe to eat. I'd say its probably safe to eat :dunno: :tup:
Post by: billythekidrock on June 26, 2014, 10:33:49 PM
I think you may have a little too much faith in wdfw. Yes, they appear to finally be trying to do something, but I think it is going to be too little too late. The timing is suspect; seems like killing off some of the affected elk would have been a solution discussed months ago.........why come out with that decision right after the permit draw? Just seems fishy.
I would agree that the timing is suspect. You can guarantee that any potential impact to license and permit sales has been thought out prior to any changes.
Post by: cem3434 on June 28, 2014, 10:22:39 PM
Even if they informed hunters about this, the wdfw would have still had the same application $$ coming in...People would have just applied elsewhere
Just my :twocents:
I think many hunters would have rather not drawn than waste their points because nobody actually knows how many elk are infected nor how many elk the state is going to take out of the herd. They should have released this information prior to the special permit draws and made sure everyone was aware of their intentions. They had no problem making everyone aware that Weyco was going to start charging access fees in the game regs, so I don't see how this is any different. Its all about perception and I perceive this as though they are withholding this information from the general public in order to ensure their license and permit sales don't suffer. If I wasted my points on one of the St. Helens units, I would be on the phone demanding my points were reinstated and they keep their permit. :twocents:
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 29, 2014, 06:18:46 AM
That is good for the licensed hunters.:yeah:
I need to retract my badmouthing of wdfw then. I missed that part too about them doing it next winter.
I have known about hoof rot for a long time, but I thought they were going to go in there and start shooting up the herds before hunting season. Paying $150 to chase elk around that have been getting shot at in the months leading up to hunting season was just too much for me. I'm glad it'll be after hunting season.
Yes, they'll leave the diseased animals there so you can eat them and then kill the rest after the season. What a bargain.
Post by: steen on June 29, 2014, 05:58:50 PM
Post by: birddogdad on June 30, 2014, 01:08:12 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 30, 2014, 01:42:14 PM
since there are master hunters, set "special" permits in these most of these areas. Additionally, they get call ups for depredation removals mostly from farm property wintering areas.... i would love to see the state work to use these hunters opportunities to REQUIRE the master hunters to identify and remove one of these from the herd and not shoot until one identified (if this is as bad as being advertised should not be an issue) Most of these after season removals are not really hunting anyway, just a drive up and harvest..... Have them work to remove these animals first. There are plenty of normal chances for these hunters as well. This should help both state and us mere human hunters still have more chance during the mere human seasons (spoken combat seasons)....
I'm not sure what problem you have with Master Hunters, but most likely it's a misunderstanding about the program. Your comment about "us mere human hunters" pits you against fellow hunters, which seems like a crappy route to take. I suggest if you have specific problems with the program, you take them to the WDFW and request changes instead of being mad at the participants. The hunters who participate dedicate long hours of study and conservation to receive their certification and to keep it ongoingly, and they do a lot of work around the state that otherwise might not be done. If you're mad about MHs having damage tag opportunities, then either participate in the program or don't - that's up to you. There was a sign up period this year open to all licensed hunters in WA. I assume from your post that you didn't either sign up or do the required work for certification. Again, having sour grapes about not having the same opportunities is about the same as being mad that Obama's the President after you refused to vote. But regardless of your reason for not liking the program, take it to the people who run it, not those who have done extra to participate.
As far as the culling of the St. Helens herd specifically, the WDFW likely intends to use MHs as well as others to do their surveys and to cull animals, although specifics aren't yet available. At this point, they suggest that the meat will be distributed to food banks around the affected area. I wouldn't eat one of those animals if my family were starving to death.
Oh yeah, welcome to the forum. :tup:
Post by: birddogdad on June 30, 2014, 02:56:38 PM
oh and thanks for the welcome~! :tup:
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 30, 2014, 03:08:06 PM
Post by: bobcat on June 30, 2014, 03:11:10 PM
Post by: Curly on June 30, 2014, 03:17:00 PM
Then later we watched another larger herd and I bet half of them were limping. It is a sad deal.
I wonder if burning the cuts would be a benefit by killing off some of the bacteria? :dunno: I wonder if there is a way they can study that?
It would be a shame to have the healthy (seemingly anyway) elk have the bacteria get on their hooves.
I guess WDFW just was hoping the problem would just go away on its own, but that has not proved to be the case. :dunno: :(
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 30, 2014, 03:17:10 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 30, 2014, 03:18:36 PM
When I helped my dad with his disabled hunter permit down in the St Helens area a couple years ago, he shot at a cow in a herd of 8 or so and I think most of them were limping.
Then later we watched another larger herd and I bet half of them were limping. It is a sad deal.
I wonder if burning the cuts would be a benefit by killing off some of the bacteria? :dunno: I wonder if there is a way they can study that?
It would be a shame to have the healthy (seemingly anyway) elk have the bacteria get on their hooves.
I guess WDFW just was hoping the problem would just go away on its own, but that has not proved to be the case. :dunno: :(
I think the reason they spray so much is because of the EPA and smoke limits. I'd be all for going back to slash and burn logging.
Post by: Curly on June 30, 2014, 03:19:28 PM
Wow Pman! Way to totally misunderstand a post! :chuckle:
I've done that before too. Usually because I'm reading too fast because I should be working instead of taking a break to catch up on some forum topics real quick.
BTW - welcome to the sight Birddog. :tup:
Post by: Curly on June 30, 2014, 03:21:12 PM
When I helped my dad with his disabled hunter permit down in the St Helens area a couple years ago, he shot at a cow in a herd of 8 or so and I think most of them were limping.
Then later we watched another larger herd and I bet half of them were limping. It is a sad deal.
I wonder if burning the cuts would be a benefit by killing off some of the bacteria? :dunno: I wonder if there is a way they can study that?
It would be a shame to have the healthy (seemingly anyway) elk have the bacteria get on their hooves.
I guess WDFW just was hoping the problem would just go away on its own, but that has not proved to be the case. :dunno: :(
I think the reason they spray so much is because of the EPA and smoke limits. I'd be all for going back to slash and burn logging.
Yeah, I think that is right. People complained about smoke and they started spraying more.
I'm just curious how to get rid of the bacteria that they claim is affecting the elk. Seems like fire would kill it....... :dunno:
And maybe if herbicide use is not a cause, then maybe it is indirectly related by way of not having fire has allowed bacteria to grow whereas maybe in the past the bacteria was more controlled due to fire? (I'm just throwing it out there........don't know how valid the thought is.)
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 30, 2014, 03:23:17 PM
When I helped my dad with his disabled hunter permit down in the St Helens area a couple years ago, he shot at a cow in a herd of 8 or so and I think most of them were limping.
Then later we watched another larger herd and I bet half of them were limping. It is a sad deal.
I wonder if burning the cuts would be a benefit by killing off some of the bacteria? :dunno: I wonder if there is a way they can study that?
It would be a shame to have the healthy (seemingly anyway) elk have the bacteria get on their hooves.
I guess WDFW just was hoping the problem would just go away on its own, but that has not proved to be the case. :dunno: :(
I think the reason they spray so much is because of the EPA and smoke limits. I'd be all for going back to slash and burn logging.
Yeah, I think that is right. People complained about smoke and they started spraying more.
I'm just curious how to get rid of the bacteria that they claim is affecting the elk. Seems like fire would kill it....... :dunno:
Either fire or the truth, or both. :tup:
Post by: bbarnes on June 30, 2014, 03:40:34 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 30, 2014, 04:37:55 PM
No one needs to shoot these elk until we have figured out what's killing them.Secondly where have all the masters hunters been throughout all the meetings I only know of three that have been at any.As I have commended them for there efforts where are the other 1300 of them.Seems to me only worried if there the ones who get to do the killing not the curing of the problem.This problem will take all our effects to get it resolved.We need video we need phone calls to law makers and unity.This is a call to action it's time for all sportsman to get engaged.Look at what toxins are being spayed do a little web surfing you'll be surprised at what you will find.
My advise: Invite, don't antagonize. We need all of the support we can get from our fellow hunters. I'm out for the night. See you all.
Post by: Bob33 on June 30, 2014, 08:39:44 PM
Secondly where have all the masters hunters been throughout all the meetings I only know of three that have been at any.As I have commended them for there efforts where are the other 1300 of them.Seems to me only worried if there the ones who get to do the killing not the curing of the problem.That's a silly statement. Just because someone doesn't attend a meeting doesn't mean he doesn't care. If I attended every meeting in which I had an interest, I'd be busy 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and still wouldn't get to a 1/10th of them.
Post by: mikeybuck on July 06, 2014, 07:40:28 AM
I know a bunch of people who would have no problem killing one and frying it up on the grill.
But no,.... they give out the same amount of tags, if not less, yet now they (we) are going to pay people to kill these elk.
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
Post by: billythekidrock on July 06, 2014, 10:06:28 AM
I always thought that wdfw should stop being so tight with the tags and maybe give out a few more tags in the affected areas.
I know a bunch of people who would have no problem killing one and frying it up on the grill.
But no,.... they give out the same amount of tags, if not less, yet now they (we) are going to pay people to kill these elk.
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
There were he hundreds of extra permits for the last six years or so.