Post by: gasman on July 29, 2014, 06:33:09 PM
Today I had a very interesting conversation with the Okanogan/Wenatchee National Forest captain of law enforcement.
Contrary to what others in the FS have been telling us, if an ATV/UTV has been properly street legalized per HB1632, then it is perfectly legal to be operated on forest service roads in the OWNF that are open to other forms of legal transportation(cars, trucks, motorcycles) and meets the speed limit requirements of 1632, virtually all dirt FS roads meet this speed limit requirement.
An LEO can not issue an infraction without having a law to support it. Simply put, there is not a CFR that clearly states it is illegal to operate an ATV/UTV on FS roads.
I plan on utilizing/testing this latest info as much as possible in the upcoming months.
Remember to ride, safe, legal, and respectfully.
There is a lot of mis-information coming out of the OWNF. I strongly urge everyone to be involved and to not let the FS walk all over our user group, It is public land and we have every right to use it in a legal, safe, and responsible manner.
If ANY law enforcement officer tries to issue a warning or infraction ticket for riding a street legal ATV/UTV on a FS road that is open to other vehicles that are plated(have a WA ST license plate) and is a legal road according to HB1632.......
ASK THEM TO CITE WHICH LAW (CFR, RCW, WAC) that is supposedly being violated...
There are currently "forest orders" posted for fire area closures, these have been done properly and must be obeyed. Before you ride a FS road, PLEASE check with the ranger district in case they issue a order than pertains specifically to ATV's
Here is there FB page to look at more. https://www.facebook.com/pages/ATV-Wenatchee-National-Forest/331286733678210?fref=nf (https://www.facebook.com/pages/ATV-Wenatchee-National-Forest/331286733678210?fref=nf)
Post by: Eli346 on July 29, 2014, 08:09:22 PM
Post by: 6x6in6 on July 31, 2014, 05:50:21 AM
I talked to the Chelan Ranger District which also covers the Wenatchee and they stated that the roads weren't going to open until they got a directive from regional headquarters in Portland. This was pertaining to the roads in Wenatchee-Okanogan Nat Forests. I had this conversation just 3 weeks ago. As much as I tried to explain that the state said it was legal she still told me it was up to the regional director. I wish there was something or somebody out there that would say 'Yay or nay' on this with definitive proof. This is really getting frustrating as hunting season is closing in on us.The specific districts within the O-WNF have basically zero authority to make a decision on whether it's legal or not. In fact, Mike Balboni who is the Forest Supervisor for the entire O-WNF made a determination to not allow effectively reversing his one month prior decision to allow. He (Balboni) does not even have the authority to rule on the legality of it either.
Basically, any of the forest service personnel cannot tell you it's illegal to do so except the law enforcement division. The CFR gasman referenced (quoted) from the Wenatchee ATV groups Facebook page is absolutely correct. Law enforcements responsibility is to enforce the law. If one should be ticketed, it's pretty much a slam dunk that it would be tossed out in court once a judge got his hands on it.
I firmly believe that enforcement would not cite in this instance since the CFR is very clear on the street legal aspect. Have I personally tested this? No!
In order for a determination to not allow to happen and be enforced by FS LE, the CFR needs to be re-written and adopted to be enforced. The NFS is in a real pickle IMO on this one as a CFR re-write would drastically affect ATV use nation wide. The way this State's law is written makes it very difficult for the NF's in this State to deny use.
Post by: CP on July 31, 2014, 06:57:01 AM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on July 31, 2014, 11:06:06 AM
I talked to the Chelan Ranger District which also covers the Wenatchee and they stated that the roads weren't going to open until they got a directive from regional headquarters in Portland. This was pertaining to the roads in Wenatchee-Okanogan Nat Forests. I had this conversation just 3 weeks ago. As much as I tried to explain that the state said it was legal she still told me it was up to the regional director. I wish there was something or somebody out there that would say 'Yay or nay' on this with definitive proof. This is really getting frustrating as hunting season is closing in on us.The specific districts within the O-WNF have basically zero authority to make a decision on whether it's legal or not. In fact, Mike Balboni who is the Forest Supervisor for the entire O-WNF made a determination to not allow effectively reversing his one month prior decision to allow. He (Balboni) does not even have the authority to rule on the legality of it either.
Basically, any of the forest service personnel cannot tell you it's illegal to do so except the law enforcement division. The CFR gasman referenced (quoted) from the Wenatchee ATV groups Facebook page is absolutely correct. Law enforcements responsibility is to enforce the law. If one should be ticketed, it's pretty much a slam dunk that it would be tossed out in court once a judge got his hands on it.
I firmly believe that enforcement would not cite in this instance since the CFR is very clear on the street legal aspect. Have I personally tested this? No!
In order for a determination to not allow to happen and be enforced by FS LE, the CFR needs to be re-written and adopted to be enforced. The NFS is in a real pickle IMO on this one as a CFR re-write would drastically affect ATV use nation wide. The way this State's law is written makes it very difficult for the NF's in this State to deny use.
6x6in6...your inbox is full.....BINGO, Homerun on your reply
CP...I am up for that, I will be riding OWNF roads this coming weekend (solo). I am a member of this newly forming club, not sure if they are ready/willing to jump in to this with a full head of steam like I am :dunno:
I am actually the creator/administrator of the ATV Wenatchee National Forest FB page. I have put in countless hours of research on this matter. I have had a 1 on 1 meeting with Mike Balboni (supervisor) & Jason Kuyken (deputy supervisor). Most recently I had a conversation with Robert Moelder (Captain of LE for OWNF & Colville NF)
What Capt. Moelder told me was polar opposite from what Balboni has said.
The simple fact is: An infraction can not be issued without a law to back it up....I can find no such law in the CFR's, RCW's, WAC's that clearly prohibit street legal ATV's from utilizing FS roads. (Even Balboni was quoted in a Methow newpaper article saying this)
With all this being said, there are 2 ways the OWNF can LEGALY prohibit ATV's.
1. Produce a MVUM (Motor Vehicle Use Map) There are CFR's in place to define this.
2. The other way I will not mention on a public forum (they know how, but have not did it, not sure why :dunno:) but I do not wish to clue them in :chuckle:
Chris
Post by: bigtex on July 31, 2014, 11:23:15 AM
Up until about 20 years ago the LEOs worked under the USFS District Rangers. So you had federal LEOs reporting to some civilian who typically had never been in an LEO position before. About 20 years ago the LEOs were moved from the local District Rangers to a separate division based out of DC. So USFS LEOs are now the only USFS employees who don't report to an actual forest supervisor or district ranger. There were a lot of "iffy" things going on under the old system, I personally know an LEO who worked in New Mexico who had his Forest Supervisor tell him NOT to investigate timber theft, since the Forest Supervisor was his boss he had to listen. Obviously a USFS LE supervisor won't tell an LEO to not investigate timber theft.
So this may be the reason there may be some disconnect. While the individual LEOs work at the Ranger Station and are supposed to work/network with the District Ranger, they do not work for them. And at the USFS LE Captain level they work/network with the Forest Superviro, but do not work with them.
Just for a little more info. The other federal land management agencies (US Fish and Wildlife, BLM, Natl Park Service) still have their uniformed officers managed by a local non-LE manager. These agencies Special Agents (Detectives/Investigators) work for a LE division out of DC.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on July 31, 2014, 11:43:55 AM
I will put more trust and faith in the one who can issue a citation :twocents: :twocents:
PS. Thanks for the PM the other day
Post by: bigtex on July 31, 2014, 12:07:24 PM
Thanks Bigtex, I always value your input. This is what I've been told Forest supv. & LEO are basically 2 diff entities.And actually thanks for bringing that up.
I will put more trust and faith in the one who can issue a citation :twocents: :twocents:
PS. Thanks for the PM the other day
The USFS is very similar to WA DNR in that they have employees who are not uniformed/armed LEOs but DO have ticket writing authority. For both DNR and USFS these employees have "regular" jobs but have been given the collateral duty of enforcing laws. The USFS calls this authority as "Forest Protection Officers" they could be the maintenance guy, or a trails crewmember, etc.
For the USFS these employees can write tickets for things like ATV and snowmobile violations (amongst others). These employees DO work for the District Ranger/Forest Supervisor. Now their tickets are basically sent through the local USFS LEO however they do not work for him. So the District Ranger/Forest Supervisor do have people working for them who can write tickets.
Post by: ghosthunter on July 31, 2014, 12:16:04 PM
But what makes a ATV street legal?
Lights, turns, brakes, plate?
And has anyone retrofitted their atv to be street legal?
Post by: ballpark on July 31, 2014, 12:19:41 PM
Motor Vehicle Use Map clarificationhttp://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/landmanagement/projects/?cid=stelprdb5432689 (http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/landmanagement/projects/?cid=stelprdb5432689)
Motor Vehicle Use Maphttp://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/landmanagement/projects/?cid=fsbdev3_053623 (http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/landmanagement/projects/?cid=fsbdev3_053623)
Don't know where the confusion is, language pretty clear about legal vehicles on FS Roads.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on July 31, 2014, 12:23:23 PM
Post by: bobcat on July 31, 2014, 12:23:31 PM
Post by: ballpark on July 31, 2014, 12:29:19 PM
ballpark....OWNF has not produced a MVUM yetI believe the 2nd link on my post is what you are looking for, if MVUM means Motor Vehicle Usage Map ?? Realizing it says proposed. :yike:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on July 31, 2014, 01:04:24 PM
Post by: ballpark on July 31, 2014, 02:29:07 PM
OWNF is still close to 2 years out on actually having a MVUM available. If anyone is interested in what they are like.......Colville NF has theirs done and availablehttp://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/landmanagement/projects/?cid=fsbdev3_053623 (http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/landmanagement/projects/?cid=fsbdev3_053623)
Looks like OWNF does also with proposed changes included in their maps, click on your area and zoom in. :bash:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on July 31, 2014, 03:26:28 PM
I will make this easier for you to understand, Please call OWNF Headquarters office at 509-664-9200 and ask them if they have a MVUM for their district. :bash: :bash: :bash: I assure you they do not, what you are finding on their web site is info from years past, They started travel management in 2007.
Post by: ballpark on August 06, 2014, 10:52:28 AM
"Due to the passing of a new state law in Washington (HR1632), there’s a need to clarify the Motor Vehicle Use Map language as it pertains to driving ORVs on National Forest roads."
"Refer to the appropriate Motor Vehicle Use Map to determine the allowed motor vehicle use for a specific National Forest System road, trail or area. These maps are available at all National Forest offices and on all National Forest web sites. Call your national forest if you have questions."
So Region HQ doesn't know what is being posted for the public to see. :yike: Doesn't surpise me, and local LEO's don't know what the law says that they are suppose to enforce. :yike:
No argument with you about this, let's just be smarter than the guy that answers the phone who doesn't know. :tup:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on August 10, 2014, 10:25:59 AM
Post by: Eli346 on August 10, 2014, 11:34:57 AM
Did you see anybody up there? Just curious if there was anyone else out or if you saw a LEO up there. I'm anxiously awaiting any info at all concerning HB1632 and the enforcement policies as it seems to be so confusing between the different agencies and also the public!
Post by: CP on August 10, 2014, 11:59:14 AM
But, does anyone know of a good kit to convert a non-street legal ATV to street legal?
Post by: CAMPMEAT on August 10, 2014, 01:01:07 PM
Sorry to :jacked:
But, does anyone know of a good kit to convert a non-street legal ATV to street legal?
Google it. You can get cheap one all the way up to some real nice ones. Mine had LED signals, mirrors and an electric horn installed from the dealer for $125 if memory serves me right. Get LED only, the bulb ones are not good in my opinion for an ORV.
Post by: CP on August 11, 2014, 04:24:54 PM
Sorry to :jacked:
But, does anyone know of a good kit to convert a non-street legal ATV to street legal?
Google it. You can get cheap one all the way up to some real nice ones. Mine had LED signals, mirrors and an electric horn installed from the dealer for $125 if memory serves me right. Get LED only, the bulb ones are not good in my opinion for an ORV.
You got a deal. Installed at a dealership = $500
Kits vary and don't seem to be complete. I'll probably put my own together. Between Harbor Freight and Ebay I think I can do this for about $50
Post by: CAMPMEAT on August 11, 2014, 04:59:32 PM