Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Muzzleloader Hunting => Topic started by: droptyne on August 14, 2014, 11:21:19 PM

Title: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: droptyne on August 14, 2014, 11:21:19 PM: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states? This a question that has game officers all ready divided on. I know of two who disagree with each other. One says he will give out tickets if seen used during muzzleloader season and another wont. The problem with the rule of open ignition is what does it mean to be expose and how much. I am from Oregon and now live in WA but both states say the same thing when it comes to open ignition. The problem it comes down to how they interpret the law. I think CVA found a loophole because it does not say how much exposure there needs to be. One officer said something about certain amount of inches, which I can't find anywhere and neither the other officer.

I guess I am wondering how many people might get tickets this year and have to fight it out in court? I might be one of them because I bought the northwest optima v2 and love it.

Also, someone mention about putting black electrical tape around it and I been told by both officers that will for sure be illegal because it is now totally enclose and you can't see the nipple.

love to hear your opinions.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: d.winsor on August 15, 2014, 05:19:29 AM: The primer area is definitely open to the elements, unless they rewrite the rules I don't see how they could ticket you, of course to win using the CVA Northwest if ticketed, one might have to get a lawyer. You would have to pay either way, so what would you win. Seems to me the warden that would want to hand out the tickets would win either way the case went.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: grundy53 on August 15, 2014, 06:30:45 AM: :yeah: maybe we could get the game department to issue a finding on it to clear the issue up. It would also (hopefully) get all of the game wardens on the same page.

sent from my typewriter
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: BNAElkhntr on August 15, 2014, 08:07:01 AM: I Don't Under stand why its open to interpretation Its open to elements and uses non centerfire type primer

a. Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock,
flintlock, or percussion using original
style percussion caps that fit on the
nipple and are exposed to the weather.
"Exposed to the weather" means the
percussion cap or the frizzen must be
visible and not capable of being enclosed
by an integral part of the weapon proper.
Primers designed to be used in modern
cartridges are not legal
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: droptyne on August 15, 2014, 08:16:30 AM: Elkhtnr the question I think is how much exposure to the weather. I do no think they thought a company would just drill some holes to fit that requirement. Also, I think it might be more of an issue in Oregon because all their muzzleloader tags are draw and not very many of them. A lot of people think it should just be traditional. But technology has taken us a long ways, just take a look at archery equipment.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: baker5150 on August 15, 2014, 08:23:01 AM: Quote from: BNAElkhntr on August 15, 2014, 08:07:01 AM
I Don't Under stand why its open to interpretation Its open to elements and uses non centerfire type primer

a. Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock,
flintlock, or percussion using original
style percussion caps that fit on the
nipple and are exposed to the weather.
"Exposed to the weather" means the
percussion cap or the frizzen must be
visible and not capable of being enclosed
by an integral part of the weapon proper.
Primers designed to be used in modern
cartridges are not legal

Clear tape? it would be visible, and not a part of the weapon proper.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: BNAElkhntr on August 15, 2014, 08:25:02 AM: The Law does not specify amount of Exposure only that is exposed When I carry my CVA Elkhorn inline I cover with my glove
Am I now Violating?
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: BNAElkhntr on August 15, 2014, 08:28:14 AM: Concerned About the Holes? Drill Them out
Title: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: bobcat on August 15, 2014, 09:05:12 AM: If a muzzleloader meets the requirements, covering it with black electrical tape, or anything for that matter, does not make the gun illegal.

If the ignition is exposed to the weather, even if only by the tiniest hole, it's legal. (IMO)

I believe the original intent of the law was to only allow traditional, sidelock muzzleloaders for hunting, because inlines at the time did not qualify under our law.

But that's the law and I don't see how a person could be cited for hunting with a gun that meets the requirements of the law, even if it just barely meets the requirements.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: Bob33 on August 15, 2014, 09:11:40 AM: (a) Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion using original style percussion caps that fit on the nipple and are exposed to the weather. "Exposed to the weather" means the percussion cap or the frizzen must be visible and not capable of being enclosed by an integral part of the weapon proper. Primers designed to be used in modern cartridges are not legal.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: droptyne on August 15, 2014, 09:43:49 AM: Bob and elkhtnr I totally agree with you. The issue is about the people who get paid to interpet the law, can they put their own personal feelings a side. Just like our supreme court it seems like their always divide because they interpret the law with their feelings (sorry for the short rant, had to get it out).
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: grousefether on August 15, 2014, 11:57:02 AM: Quote from: droptyne on August 14, 2014, 11:21:19 PM
Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states? This a question that has game officers all ready divided on. I know of two who disagree with each other. One says he will give out tickets if seen used during muzzleloader season and another wont. The problem with the rule of open ignition is what does it mean to be expose and how much. I am from Oregon and now live in WA but both states say the same thing when it comes to open ignition. The problem it comes down to how they interpret the law. I think CVA found a loophole because it does not say how much exposure there needs to be. One officer said something about certain amount of inches, which I can't find anywhere and neither the other officer.

I guess I am wondering how many people might get tickets this year and have to fight it out in court? I might be one of them because I bought the northwest optima v2 and love it.

Also, someone mention about putting black electrical tape around it and I been told by both officers that will for sure be illegal because it is now totally enclose and you can't see the nipple.

love to hear your opinions.
I dont see how the officer that said he will be giving out tickets will get away with it after he writes the first one. The law is the law. My new wolf meets wa muzzleloader requirements whether he sees it that way or not.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: Bob33 on August 15, 2014, 12:17:53 PM: Quote from: droptyne on August 14, 2014, 11:21:19 PM
Also, someone mention about putting black electrical tape around it and I been told by both officers that will for sure be illegal because it is now totally enclose and you can't see the nipple.

"...the percussion cap or the frizzen must be visible."

I don't follow how putting electrical tape around the ignition allows the cap to remain visible. Do you?
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: grousefether on August 15, 2014, 12:24:17 PM: If they do start writing tickets and it holds up in court, CVA is going to be giving out a chit load of refunds :dunno:
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: washelkhunter on August 15, 2014, 12:32:27 PM: Once the nipple is capped paint it over with some nail lacquer to seal it if youre that worried about it. The NW CVA is certainly legal under the open to the elements stipulation. I like the NW nitride coated rifle, wish I had a few extra shekels to spend.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: bobcat on August 15, 2014, 12:37:33 PM: "I don't follow how putting electrical tape around the ignition allows the cap to remain visible. Do you?"

There is no requirement that the cap remain visible.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: washelkhunter on August 15, 2014, 12:47:56 PM: Quote from: bobcat on August 15, 2014, 12:37:33 PM
"I don't follow how putting electrical tape around the ignition allows the cap to remain visible. Do you?"

There is no requirement that the cap remain visible.

Im pretty sure that "open to the elements" implies some degree of visibilty.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: baker5150 on August 15, 2014, 12:51:32 PM: Quote from: bobcat on August 15, 2014, 12:37:33 PM
"I don't follow how putting electrical tape around the ignition allows the cap to remain visible. Do you?"

There is no requirement that the cap remain visible.

Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock,
flintlock, or percussion using original
style percussion caps that fit on the
nipple and are exposed to the weather.
"Exposed to the weather" means the
percussion cap or the frizzen must be
visible and not capable of being enclosed
by an integral part of the weapon proper.
Primers designed to be used in modern
cartridges are not legal

I guess I'm reading it wrong then!
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: Curly on August 15, 2014, 12:51:40 PM: Quote
percussion cap or the frizzen must be visible and not capable of being enclosed by an integral part of the weapon proper.

electrical tape is not "an integral part of the weapon proper".
:twocents:
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: bobcat on August 15, 2014, 12:55:14 PM: Quote from: washelkhunter on August 15, 2014, 12:47:56 PM
Quote from: bobcat on August 15, 2014, 12:37:33 PM
"I don't follow how putting electrical tape around the ignition allows the cap to remain visible. Do you?"

There is no requirement that the cap remain visible.

Im pretty sure that "open to the elements" implies some degree of visibilty.

Sure it does, but it only has to be open to the elements in order to meet the definition of a muzzleloader that is legal to hunt with. What you do to cover up a legal ignition system while hunting is up to you.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: Bob33 on August 15, 2014, 01:01:33 PM: Quote from: bobcat on August 15, 2014, 12:37:33 PM
"I don't follow how putting electrical tape around the ignition allows the cap to remain visible. Do you?"

There is no requirement that the cap remain visible.
Yes, there is.

(a) Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion using original style percussion caps that fit on the nipple and are exposed to the weather. "Exposed to the weather" means the percussion cap or the frizzen must be visible and not capable of being enclosed by an integral part of the weapon proper. Primers designed to be used in modern cartridges are not legal.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: bobcat on August 15, 2014, 01:11:22 PM: Quote from: Bob33 on August 15, 2014, 01:01:33 PM
Quote from: bobcat on August 15, 2014, 12:37:33 PM
"I don't follow how putting electrical tape around the ignition allows the cap to remain visible. Do you?"

There is no requirement that the cap remain visible.
Yes, there is.

(a) Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion using original style percussion caps that fit on the nipple and are exposed to the weather. "Exposed to the weather" means the percussion cap or the frizzen must be visible and not capable of being enclosed by an integral part of the weapon proper. Primers designed to be used in modern cartridges are not legal.

I don't interpret that to mean you can't cover up the cap with something to keep the water out.

If that were the case a "cows knee" would be illegal as well.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: Bob33 on August 15, 2014, 01:19:00 PM: "...the percussion cap... must be visible..." seems clear to me. I'd rather not try to explain to a judge why it doesn't really mean that. :twocents:
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: bobcat on August 15, 2014, 01:29:48 PM: The phrase that says it must be visible is simply defining what type of ignition system is legal. It goes on to say it can't be "capable of being enclosed by an integral part of the weapon proper."

I've heard of some guys wrapping their gun in Saran Wrap. :yike: I guess the cap would still be visible. :dunno: But it doesn't need to be.

Doesn't matter to me, my muzzleloader is a traditional side lock, and I don't cover the cap with anything.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: rim_runner on August 15, 2014, 01:40:21 PM: What is the point of this restriction to begin with? Is it just about being traditional?
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: muzbuster on August 15, 2014, 01:56:38 PM: "...the percussion cap or the frizzen must be visible."

I don't follow how putting electrical tape around the ignition allows the cap to remain visible. Do you?
[/quote]

and not capable of being enclosed by an integral part of the weapon proper
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: Bob33 on August 15, 2014, 02:01:35 PM: Quote from: muzbuster on August 15, 2014, 01:56:38 PM

"...the percussion cap or the frizzen must be visible."

I don't follow how putting electrical tape around the ignition allows the cap to remain visible. Do you?

and not capable of being enclosed by an integral part of the weapon proper
[/quote]
I'm no expert but I would interpret "and" as meaning that both conditions must be met: the cap must be visible, and it must not be capable of being enclosed.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: MarkyMark on August 15, 2014, 02:03:01 PM: So the tape covering the ignition is something you do when know one important is around and then remove before you get back toward civilization. No point in even talking about it in an open forum. Everyone knows people do it, we just don't talk about it.
Code of the road fellas.
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: Sabotloader on August 15, 2014, 02:58:54 PM: Bob33 has provided the rule... No part of the gun can make the cap not visible or open to the weather. You yourself as the hunter can apply a cover that is not a part of the rifle. Even the Traditional people whom had a big part in this rule protect their caps and bore in bad weather that is what ML rain gear is designed for.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/6-0513570 (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/6-0513570)

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn1.cheaperthandirt.com%2Fctd_images%2Flgprod%2F6-0513570.jpg&hash=6c76ba8f7b5526e15cf73d67b15ce68877fbdc70)

I do the same thing with saran wrap

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2Fcapwrap.jpg&hash=f631a614e15eda63d4ae0615dac46369bcf434ff) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/capwrap.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Is the new CVA Northwest addition muzzleloader Legal in the Northwest states?
Post by: oneshot12 on August 15, 2014, 04:33:36 PM: think it has more to do with the use of a shot gun that can be converted to black powder and the nipple would be all inclosed . so they can be sure its not using the 209 primers or the disk primer systems .