Post by: losdaddy7 on August 26, 2014, 07:47:54 AM
I'll be heading up to Cabelas this weekend to check out both in the store but wanted to get your thoughts first.... Thanks!
Post by: scottcrb on August 26, 2014, 07:54:59 AM
Post by: grundy53 on August 26, 2014, 08:05:48 AM
sent from my typewriter
Post by: Huntboy on August 26, 2014, 08:07:55 AM
I have the 10x42's and love them!
:yeah:
Post by: huntnphool on August 26, 2014, 08:44:57 AM
I'll be heading up to Cabelas this weekend to check out both in the store
You won't notice much difference besides FOV inside the store, best to take them outside and look at distance. I'd also do it after sun down. :twocents:
Post by: huntandjeep on August 26, 2014, 05:15:14 PM
I have the 10x42's and love them!
sent from my typewriter
:yeah:
Post by: The scout on August 26, 2014, 05:41:35 PM
Post by: dscubame on August 26, 2014, 06:02:59 PM
I have the 10x42's and love them!
sent from my typewriter
:yeah:
sent from my typographer
Post by: RadSav on August 26, 2014, 06:14:48 PM
Bought the wife some Swaro 8X last year. The breakdown in quality from last year to this year is astonishing. At this rate they will be as good as a pair of $200 Bushnell's in another two years. Maybe Hoover or Dyson needs to start making binoculars as the newer glass seems to last about as long as a modern vacuum >:( I just continue growing more and more disgusted with all the binocular manufacturers. Paying down payment on a house type of money and getting vacuum cleaner quality and longevity really chaps my ^$$!
I've got a new pair of Ultravid's on the way. If they wear out in a year or two I expect I'm done buying new glass. The old B&L will probably last until I'm too broken to hunt anyway. :dunno:
Post by: et1702 on August 26, 2014, 06:52:58 PM
Check out Zen Ray 9x36 ED2 glasses. I love mine!
ET
Post by: jjhunter on August 26, 2014, 07:07:49 PM
I keep spending big bucks on quality glass. Yet I usually find myself going back to an old pair of B&L 7X35's (The old ones when B&L meant something). Unless I'm hunting goats and need some long range evaluation of size I have no use for 10X. Though it is getting harder and harder to find 7 or 8 power quality glass anymore.
Bought the wife some Swaro 8X last year. The breakdown in quality from last year to this year is astonishing. At this rate they will be as good as a pair of $200 Bushnell's in another two years. Maybe Hoover or Dyson needs to start making binoculars as the newer glass seems to last about as long as a modern vacuum >:( I just continue growing more and more disgusted with all the binocular manufacturers. Paying down payment on a house type of money and getting vacuum cleaner quality and longevity really chaps my ^$$!
I've got a new pair of Ultravid's on the way. If they wear out in a year or two I expect I'm done buying new glass. The old B&L will probably last until I'm too broken to hunt anyway. :dunno:
I've never heard anyone say that about Swarovski glass? I've still got my first pair from 2001 (10x50 SLC) and they are still amazing. I've owned 10 pair including the pair that I received today and they have all been incredible pieces of glass. I just got done playing with my 15x56 HD and there is nothing in that power range that compares - WOW! is all I have to say.
Post by: Bob33 on August 26, 2014, 07:18:14 PM
Likewise. I've looked through 10 and 20 year old Swaros that look as good as they did new. Sure, the newer glass may be a bit better than the older glass (better coatings, etc.) but I've never seen a pair degrade with age. What is the science behind this degradation?I keep spending big bucks on quality glass. Yet I usually find myself going back to an old pair of B&L 7X35's (The old ones when B&L meant something). Unless I'm hunting goats and need some long range evaluation of size I have no use for 10X. Though it is getting harder and harder to find 7 or 8 power quality glass anymore.
Bought the wife some Swaro 8X last year. The breakdown in quality from last year to this year is astonishing. At this rate they will be as good as a pair of $200 Bushnell's in another two years. Maybe Hoover or Dyson needs to start making binoculars as the newer glass seems to last about as long as a modern vacuum >:( I just continue growing more and more disgusted with all the binocular manufacturers. Paying down payment on a house type of money and getting vacuum cleaner quality and longevity really chaps my ^$$!
I've got a new pair of Ultravid's on the way. If they wear out in a year or two I expect I'm done buying new glass. The old B&L will probably last until I'm too broken to hunt anyway. :dunno:
I've never heard anyone say that about Swarovski glass? I've still got my first pair from 2001 (10x50 SLC) and they are still amazing. I've owned 10 pair including the pair that I received today and they have all been incredible pieces of glass. I just got done playing with my 15x56 HD and there is nothing in that power range that compares - WOW! is all I have to say.
Post by: Bean Counter on August 26, 2014, 07:35:18 PM
Then again if you're stupid the optics might go bad. An example Would be using an ammonia based glass cleaner (Windex) and eroding all those multicoats. :bdid: but otherwise, multicoats are very hard and durable.
Post by: RadSav on August 26, 2014, 08:28:56 PM
My antelope guide gets a new pair of Swarovski binos for each of his guides about every three years due to the coating breakdown. Last year he had a new pair of 8.5X with about a months worth of use and my 20 year old 7X B&L were already superior in clarity. Most Canadian guides I know are all using Leica due to similar issues with Swaro of late. So I don't think my experience is that uncommon. But, then again we use them A LOT!
Post by: jjhunter on August 26, 2014, 08:45:59 PM
The toughest lense coating that I have ever encountered were on my Zeiss RF 10x45. They were very easy to clean and the coatings were slick and tough - I don't really know how to explain it, they just seemed hardy and were absolutely perfect after 2 years of use and over 100 days afield.
Post by: RadSav on August 26, 2014, 09:11:27 PM
Its funny that you say that about Leica.... I baby my stuff and have to send my Leica Geovid HDs in to have the objective lenses replaced from numerous cleaning scratches. I have never scratched the lense of a Swaro.
Well, that is not good news. I have not had a pair of Leica binos. Glass on my rangefinders wore very well! The Leitz I had were almost 30 years ago. So I really have only second hand knowledge on how they compare these days. The Canadian guides I know swear by them so I thought I'd try after the recent Swaro failures. Could be just as bad or worse, I just don't know yet :dunno: I have been warned about the Geovid breaking! That's why I'm giving the 7X Ultravid a try instead...we'll see, I guess.
Post by: northwesthunter84 on August 26, 2014, 09:34:41 PM
I have the 10x42's and love them!:yeah:
sent from my typewriter
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 26, 2014, 11:34:25 PM
Viper HD's look great.
Post by: bobcat on August 26, 2014, 11:44:10 PM
Post by: RadSav on August 26, 2014, 11:50:22 PM
I've never heard anyone say that about Swarovski glass? I've still got my first pair from 2001 (10x50 SLC) and they are still amazing. I've owned 10 pair including the pair that I received today and they have all been incredible pieces of glass. I just got done playing with my 15x56 HD and there is nothing in that power range that compares - WOW! is all I have to say.
Why would someone buy $20,000 worth of binoculars if the first $2,000 pair was that good? No slam, just curious :dunno:
Even though I am happy with the B&L's I get drawn in by how freakin' orgasmic the new glass is that first year. So I've got suckered in over and over again only to be disappointed a year or two later. After $6K spent on a single brand I'm done and moving on to try something else! Could have saved myself a crud load of cash if I had found just one single pair that kept that new car smell for more than a couple years ;)
Likewise. I've looked through 10 and 20 year old Swaros that look as good as they did new. Sure, the newer glass may be a bit better than the older glass (better coatings, etc.) but I've never seen a pair degrade with age. What is the science behind this degradation?
That is beyond my expertise in science. As mentioned I do not know what the reason behind it is or what the source of the degradation is. Just that my personal experience and that of guys I know that spend a lot of time in the field each year seem similar with the newer products. No Windex, no ammonia and no paper towels, nothing different that has been used on the B&L for over 20 years and the Leitz before that.
Post by: huntnphool on August 26, 2014, 11:56:44 PM
I keep spending big bucks on quality glass. Yet I usually find myself going back to an old pair of B&L 7X35's (The old ones when B&L meant something). Unless I'm hunting goats and need some long range evaluation of size I have no use for 10X. Though it is getting harder and harder to find 7 or 8 power quality glass anymore.
Bought the wife some Swaro 8X last year. The breakdown in quality from last year to this year is astonishing. At this rate they will be as good as a pair of $200 Bushnell's in another two years. Maybe Hoover or Dyson needs to start making binoculars as the newer glass seems to last about as long as a modern vacuum >:( I just continue growing more and more disgusted with all the binocular manufacturers. Paying down payment on a house type of money and getting vacuum cleaner quality and longevity really chaps my ^$$!
I've got a new pair of Ultravid's on the way. If they wear out in a year or two I expect I'm done buying new glass. The old B&L will probably last until I'm too broken to hunt anyway. :dunno:
I've never heard anyone say that about Swarovski glass? I've still got my first pair from 2001 (10x50 SLC) and they are still amazing. I've owned 10 pair including the pair that I received today and they have all been incredible pieces of glass. I just got done playing with my 15x56 HD and there is nothing in that power range that compares - WOW! is all I have to say.
I've never had a issue with my EL's, they are still clear and sharp afyer years of use. :dunno:
Post by: pope on August 26, 2014, 11:57:20 PM
These will be my only binocs and used for both open county sage and east slope timber country.
Greater magnification is an advantage in open country, so consider the 10x option. It is my understanding that lower-magnification lenses perform better in low-light conditions, so for example, 8x42 should perform better than 10x42 in the woods as darkness approaches.
Post by: RadSav on August 27, 2014, 12:21:11 AM
These will be my only binocs and used for both open county sage and east slope timber country.
Greater magnification is an advantage in open country, so consider the 10x option. It is my understanding that lower-magnification lenses perform better in low-light conditions, so for example, 8x42 should perform better than 10x42 in the woods as darkness approaches.
I've always looked at it a different way. In open country I might spend six to twelve hours a day behind the glass. Where in timber I rarely spend more than three or four hours a day glassing. So for me the 7-8.5X glass leaves me less strained and loopy at days end. No question I would rather have 10X quality glass over 7X cheap glass, but quality being the same I personally prefer the medium power and reduced eyestrain. And if I need to take a close look at something at the top of that mountain...that's what spotting scopes are for!
Also, I was always taught that power has almost nothing to do with low light performance. Low light performance is about coatings and exit pupil diameter. Meaning that if you have two pairs of binoculars of equal construction and coating low light performance is directly related to exit pupil size. The average human eye dilates to a diameter of 5mm. So if you have a pair of 8X20 bino's the exit pupil will be 2.5mm and you can not get enough light to the fully dilated eye. If you have a pair of 10X50 binos the exit pupil will be almost equal to the full dilation of the eye at 5mm. Thus the 10X50's will be brighter than the 8X20 or even a pair of 8x32. This also states that you will get no more or no less brightness from an 8X42 than you would from an 8X50 of similar make and coating. So be careful of falling into a trap thinking just going lower power is going to improve your low light performance.
Post by: Bigshooter on August 27, 2014, 04:19:15 AM
These will be my only binocs and used for both open county sage and east slope timber country.
Greater magnification is an advantage in open country, so consider the 10x option. It is my understanding that lower-magnification lenses perform better in low-light conditions, so for example, 8x42 should perform better than 10x42 in the woods as darkness approaches.
I've always looked at it a different way. In open country I might spend six to twelve hours a day behind the glass. Where in timber I rarely spend more than three or four hours a day glassing. So for me the 7-8.5X glass leaves me less strained and loopy at days end. No question I would rather have 10X quality glass over 7X cheap glass, but quality being the same I personally prefer the medium power and reduced eyestrain. And if I need to take a close look at something at the top of that mountain...that's what spotting scopes are for!
Also, I was always taught that power has almost nothing to do with low light performance. Low light performance is about coatings and exit pupil diameter. Meaning that if you have two pairs of binoculars of equal construction and coating low light performance is directly related to exit pupil size. The average human eye dilates to a diameter of 5mm. So if you have a pair of 8X20 bino's the exit pupil will be 2.5mm and you can not get enough light to the fully dilated eye. If you have a pair of 10X50 binos the exit pupil will be almost equal to the full dilation of the eye at 5mm. Thus the 10X50's will be brighter than the 8X20 or even a pair of 8x32. This also states that you will get no more or no less brightness from an 8X42 than you would from an 8X50 of similar make and coating. So be careful of falling into a trap thinking just going lower power is going to improve your low light performance.
You are right about pupil diameter. And the human eye at best is 5mm. But where lower objectives do let in more light is when you compare equal objectives that are less than 50mm. When you go less than 50mm the lower power will let more light in. For example 8x42 (5.25mm) will let in more light than a 10x42(4.2mm). But the 8x42 will not let in anymore light than the 10x50. Because your eye can not let in more than 5mm.
Post by: mburrows on August 27, 2014, 05:35:57 AM
Post by: jjhunter on August 27, 2014, 07:40:00 AM
I've never heard anyone say that about Swarovski glass? I've still got my first pair from 2001 (10x50 SLC) and they are still amazing. I've owned 10 pair including the pair that I received today and they have all been incredible pieces of glass. I just got done playing with my 15x56 HD and there is nothing in that power range that compares - WOW! is all I have to say.
Why would someone buy $20,000 worth of binoculars if the first $2,000 pair was that good? No slam, just curious :dunno:
Even though I am happy with the B&L's I get drawn in by how freakin' orgasmic the new glass is that first year. So I've got suckered in over and over again only to be disappointed a year or two later. After $6K spent on a single brand I'm done and moving on to try something else! Could have saved myself a crud load of cash if I had found just one single pair that kept that new car smell for more than a couple years ;)
C'mon Rad :chuckle:
What has Swaro done in the past 13 years?
I started with the SLC and Swarobright, then we got SLC Neu, then we got SLC HD, then we got Swarovision and the EL range. On the spotting scope side, we got 'TS, then 'TM, now TX.
We also got 10x50 and 12x50 on an EL frame. I have to try them all in different combinations - I think I have owned up to 4 at one time. :chuckle:
Post by: RadSav on August 27, 2014, 08:00:59 AM
C'mon Rad :chuckle:
What has Swaro done in the past 13 years?
On the spotting scope side, we got 'TS, then 'TM, now TX.
I don't know what they have done :dunno: but they sure don't hold up like they use to. Wife's 8X's are the third ones I've bought in the past eight years. Her pair started to fade before the year was over! All were fantabulous the first year and rapidly deteriorated after that. My good poro pair was bought in 1988 or there about! They were absolutely bullet proof. Bought them from the sales rep who had carried them as sales samples for at least a year and routinely dropped them from balcony's and other elevated points as proof of their toughness. They weighed 10# but those were great binos!!
I have yet to hunt with a quality guide anywhere that used anything other than Swaro spotting scopes. I'm not much versed in those, but it appears all I know agree Swaro is the brand to have in spotters!
Post by: jjhunter on August 27, 2014, 11:53:04 AM
Did you ever contact Swarovski about those issues? I know a lot of optics nuts and mule deer guides and I have never, ever heard of this? I'd bet you $100 that Swarovski would make whatever issue(s) you and your friends had, right. The Swarovision is the best binocular glass on the planet - it would be a shame not to use it if you are already spending that kind of $$.
I will tell you that the Ultravid HD is not on par, optically. We may be splitting hairs, but there is a noticable difference.
Post by: RadSav on August 27, 2014, 11:00:55 PM
The ATX/STX spotters are the leader of the pack, but before that, I believe that Kowa held the top spot, optically.
I will tell you that the Ultravid HD is not on par, optically. We may be splitting hairs, but there is a noticable difference.
I've never even seen a Kowa so I'm clueless about those. Can't even remember reading any reviews on them. I knew they were suppose to be good, but didn't realize that good. Again I'm not well versed in spotters, obviously.
As far as Swarovski making things right. They do...for a price. Though I prefer to have no need to send them off in the first place. Never had to on the old ones and never have had to on the B&L and old Leitz. Sort of like a truck, even if the dealership keeps fixing my truck for free I'm not going to buy another one when the two before and all my friend's of the same brand break down every year or two.
I honestly have zero vested interest in one brand of binocular over another. I really could care less what others use or enjoy. That is pretty much their deal and all I hope is that they find a product that makes them happy. I honestly do not know if there is a great deal of difference between the glass on a Swaro and the glass on the Ultravid HD. What I do know is, for me personally, I never stick with a company after the third strike. And if you go by friends of mine who make their living behind their glasses that is a lot of strikes between the lot of us. Those respected friends made the change to Leica so I figured it was at least worth the try for me too. Maybe I'll just be throwing away another $2,300 :dunno: But at least I won't be flushing it down the same toilet I have been over the past eight years.
The fact that I was able to get 7X from Leica was another big plus in my book. I got nostalgic and almost bought the throwbacks with the leather instead of the armor coated just to feel like I was stepping back to the old days with my Leitz. Those were my "Good Ole' Days" :) I realize I am the strange uncle at the Thanksgiving binocular table. But I absolutely love the 7X! I think if more folks would try them they would like them too. Depth of field makes focusing a rare event, images seem almost as if they jump to life in 3-D, field of view is much better and I like being able to close my eyes after a full day of glassing without needing muscle relaxers to stop the pain at the back of my eyes. And other than trying to field judge a mountain goat a mile away I have never felt under powered with the 7's. Doesn't mean everyone has to do it my way. Obviously 10X is more popular and that's fine with me.
Post by: MountainWalk on August 27, 2014, 11:50:42 PM
Post by: jjhunter on August 28, 2014, 07:11:39 AM
Also, the guys at Outdoorsmans sell a lot of glass and they are hunters and use the stuff that they sell. You can get some pretty good insight from them.
Back to the OP - If I had to choose one binocular, it would be a 10x42 and I'd have a way to attach it to a tripod.
Post by: coachcw on August 28, 2014, 07:23:10 AM
Post by: RadSav on August 28, 2014, 07:42:25 AM
It sounds like you have your mind made up
While my mind is definitely made up on Swarovski I am always open to the idea of being led down a promising path. You got me thinking about Kowa and I'm having a good time taking a closer look at their technology. I do have concerns about how I will adapt to the shape of the new Leica as in the brief time I've played with them that thumb groove in the rubber seems completely misplaced for my hands. Always up for something fun and new! Just rarely open to repeating old mistakes.
Back to the OP - If I had to choose one binocular, it would be a 10x42 and I'd have a way to attach it to a tripod.
That is really good advise there! When we are Mtn Goat hunting the 10X is always attached to an Outdoorsmans Pistol Grip QD. That way we don't need to carry an extra tripod for the spotter plus the higher power and heavier binos aren't driving us nuts! I know guys on here have slammed the OPG in the past. But for me, on those rare occasions when I do use the 10X and/or a spotter it's one of the best $200 I've ever spent!
Post by: losdaddy7 on August 29, 2014, 08:18:43 AM
Post by: Slimdog350 on August 29, 2014, 08:56:00 AM
Post by: Slimdog350 on August 29, 2014, 09:08:15 AM
Post by: KimberRich on August 29, 2014, 09:27:37 AM
When you're trying to determine if there's a 3rd point on one side of a Mulie or if it's a "True Spike" while the animal is moving at 300 yards... I like to have more magnification. :twocents:
I use 12x Zeiss on the East side and 10x Leupold's on the West Side. I can not say enough about how great the Zeiss are.
Post by: RadSav on August 29, 2014, 06:14:14 PM
I use 12x Zeiss on the East side and 10x Leupold's on the West Side. I can not say enough about how great the Zeiss are.
I'm thinking of changing your name from KimberRich to "SteadyFreddy" :chuckle:
The 12X I have used (not my own) were made by Zeiss. I can not remember the model, but they were VERY NICE! I tried to use them off the tripod after bugging up a hill around 6K' after a goat. My heart beat showed in the view so bad I'm not sure I could have counted tines on a buck at 300 yards. :yike: Though I have to admit...I'm not the poster boy for a physically fit hunter :( These days it's probably closer to the poster boy for "Bubba" - The camo'd heart attack :o
Post by: KimberRich on August 29, 2014, 06:29:44 PM
I use 12x Zeiss on the East side and 10x Leupold's on the West Side. I can not say enough about how great the Zeiss are.
I'm thinking of changing your name from KimberRich to "SteadyFreddy" :chuckle:
The 12X I have used (not my own) were made by Zeiss. I can not remember the model, but they were VERY NICE! I tried to use them off the tripod after bugging up a hill around 6K' after a goat. My heart beat showed in the view so bad I'm not sure I could have counted tines on a buck at 300 yards. :yike: Though I have to admit...I'm not the poster boy for a physically fit hunter :( These days it's probably closer to the poster boy for "Bubba" - The camo'd heart attack :o
Very funny. Im not a poster child for health myself as I get older. Im more of a hike into my spot in thedark, then sit and wait for daylight, type of a guy so I cant speak to that. Ive always figured that I if im breathing so hard that im not ready to make a shot... im walking too fast and probably walking past something I should be seeing.
But thats just me.
Post by: KimberRich on August 29, 2014, 06:33:20 PM
I'm a die hard Leupold guy for life but the Zeiss binos are spectacular.
Post by: RadSav on August 29, 2014, 06:33:48 PM
My first impressions;
If Leica takes making binoculars as seriously as they take product packaging I'm going to be REALY, REALLY pleased with these! That is some serious attention to detail...and I'm not even talking the binoculars yet :chuckle:
Certainly not going to be able to write the whole story until a few years have gone by and we see how they hold up in the field. But so far I can not find a single flaw other than I will need to change the placement of my hands on the body because of the thumb grooves. Right now they are superbly brite, crisp image from edge to edge of view, lightweight, eye cups are the best I've ever witnesses, and focusing is smooth as butter (though I have not needed to focus after the initial time due to the fact focus from 20 - 450 yards has not changed at all!).
I'm very optimistic that these will be exactly what I've been hoping for...That is these will be the last pair of every day binos I will need till I'm too broken to continue hunting! Though I've been optimistic and wrong before ;) Sure going to be fun finding out for sure :IBCOOL:
Post by: RadSav on August 29, 2014, 06:39:11 PM
Ive always figured that I if im breathing so hard that im not ready to make a shot... im walking too fast and probably walking past something I should be seeing.
I don't think I'd ever get anywhere if I walked slow enough I didn't breath hard. I feel like an excited black lab out there! If I had a tail, I'd really be in trouble :chuckle:
I'm leaning towards the 10X's based on the comments here, and will stick with Vortex as they are the best glass I can buy within my budget and they offer a great discount for hunter ed instructors.
That's pretty cool that they give discounts to instructors! I had no idea they did that. :tup:
I have a good friend in Kimberly BC who works in the mines and has teenage kids. Affording Vortex was even a stretch for him, but he gambled and made the purchase on the 10X42 (I'm not sure which model he got). He is thrilled with what he got for the money!
He called me up REALLY excited to tell me about his wolf he shot the first day he used them in the field. Seems he was headed into the high country to try and find a big mule deer. Perched himself on the edge of a high cliff and glassed into the far side of the canyon 1 to 1.5 kilometers away. With the Vortex he sees a big alpha male sleeping beneath a rock. "I would have never seen that dog with my old Nikon's", he says. About an hour later he is less than 100 yards from the wolf and shoots him right there in his bed with his 300! He is so excited I think he is going to modify his will so he can be buried with those glasses :chuckle:
Post by: quadrafire on November 07, 2014, 10:27:15 AM
I'm getting the itch to look at some good glass and have been "eyeing" the ultravids
Any eyeglass wearers using these. I hate using binos w/ glasses
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on November 07, 2014, 08:42:52 PM
Post by: tgomez on November 13, 2014, 09:31:19 PM