Post by: t6 on August 31, 2014, 08:00:39 PM
Post by: BrushChimp on September 01, 2014, 07:52:23 AM
"I see these two things are happening at the same time in the same place so one must cause the other!" That type of thinking leads to bad science, public hysteria, etc.. This type of article is used solely for the purpose of self-promotion or to move an agenda forward. For every point put forth in the article there is a counter-point.... because there is no science to back it up. Humans did not come this far in advancing our civilization to the point is at today, both technologically and otherwise, by guessing at why things are the way they are.
Lastly, to say that there are "so few elk in the woods of southwest Washington" is just flat wrong. Compared to where and when? There are more elk today in southwest Washington than there were in the same locations 100 years ago... 80 years ago.. 60 years ago.. 40 years ago.. NOT 10 years ago. So that means there are "so few elk"? Nowhere in western Oregon will you find densities like you find in the Toutle, Margaret and Coweeman units. I'd say they are thick as fleas... and maybe that's a problem.
Post by: t6 on September 01, 2014, 12:35:00 PM
To follow along blindly with the proven lies that have been told will only result in sick and decreasing herds. If there was good science or even honest answers then why not provide them to the public? Why hide that elk were culled in Tillamook? Where is the science from the testing done on those elk... oh wait... there wasn't any! Maybe its time for a little public hysteria or at least public alarm.
Not sure what elk herd your looking at but its not the Coweeman. What elk are there, many are limping and sick. Not really what I want to take home and feed my family.
Keep spraying em down... I'm sure they'll get used to the chemicals in time..... they'll adapt right?
Post by: idahohuntr on September 01, 2014, 01:20:26 PM
Seriously, lets leave the fiction writing to the fiction authors...and lets leave the biology and veterinarians to handle the diagnosis and management of the wildlife diseases. :tup:
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 01, 2014, 01:35:37 PM
You must believe in science. Up until the discovery and mastering of the scientific method, we humans used these causation-type analyses all the time. And we were wrong to do so.
"I see these two things are happening at the same time in the same place so one must cause the other!" That type of thinking leads to bad science, public hysteria, etc.. This type of article is used solely for the purpose of self-promotion or to move an agenda forward. For every point put forth in the article there is a counter-point.... because there is no science to back it up. Humans did not come this far in advancing our civilization to the point is at today, both technologically and otherwise, by guessing at why things are the way they are.
Lastly, to say that there are "so few elk in the woods of southwest Washington" is just flat wrong. Compared to where and when? There are more elk today in southwest Washington than there were in the same locations 100 years ago... 80 years ago.. 60 years ago.. 40 years ago.. NOT 10 years ago. So that means there are "so few elk"? Nowhere in western Oregon will you find densities like you find in the Toutle, Margaret and Coweeman units. I'd say they are thick as fleas... and maybe that's a problem.
We just wish the WDFW believed in it as much. Their "science" with regards to hoof disease has not included studies of live animals, nor has it included testing for agricultural chemicals in the toxicologies they've performed. Jon and a few others have been very scientific in their approach to this disease. They've studied it for years and it's Jon and Bruce Barnes and others who made this enough of an issue that the WDFW finally made working on it a priority. They have not said that these chemicals are the cause. They've said there needs to be testing to rule them out. So far, the WDFW has been unwilling to go there. Many of us wonder why. :dunno:
As far as the number of elk in the woods is concerned, I don't believe you can say the author is flat wrong any more than he can definitively say that numbers are "way down". However, we do know that the number of affected elk in the disease areas have been ranging from 25-75% in sub-groups and that elk are starving to death and more susceptible to predators from the disease. Unless the previous causes of death have been removed (predators, injury, weather, other disease, starvation, regulated hunting), then it's fairly safe to assume their numbers have, in fact, decreased. As compared to WA, Oregon has almost twice as many elk and concentrations in herds such as the Tillamook herd and the Saddle mountain/Seaside herd are quite high.
Making the statement that there are more elk today than 80-100 years ago is ridiculous. Anyone who's done any study of sport and regulated hunting knows that the elk were almost gone 100 years ago due to commercial/market hunters, and it's taken that long to bring them back. A comparison like that is meant to throw off the uninformed. You'll probably have to find another group to fool with that one.
Post by: jongosch on September 01, 2014, 01:38:34 PM
Btw, that eco park resort owner just won the primary for Cowlitz County Commissioner and is heading into the general election. And it's more than just a few people who've seen some odd antlers: http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155341.msg2061466.html#msg2061466 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155341.msg2061466.html#msg2061466)
You'll eat your crow soon enough. Keep on chattering. It keeps me motivated :tup:
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 01, 2014, 01:45:06 PM
What a surprise...more fiction from a professional fiction writer :chuckle: The articles seem to be getting more desperate all the time...now we just need an eco park resort owner to fence a few elk so we can figure this out...oh, and some people saw some odd antlers so that proves that its not limited to hooves...with science like that who needs real data. :rolleyes:
Seriously, lets leave the fiction writing to the fiction authors...and lets leave the biology and veterinarians to handle the diagnosis and management of the wildlife diseases. :tup:
And as well, what a surprise to have you propping up the WDFW. :rolleyes: You're very predictable and always there to try and discredit anyone speaking out against them. If their vets and biologists (I assume that's what you meant to say) were more complete in their analyses and testing, maybe concerned citizens wouldn't be questioning why they don't look in certain areas. They're not and we have to.
Post by: idahohuntr on September 02, 2014, 10:40:25 AM
It's funny to me, idahohuntr. You never dispute any of my points. Just more personal attacks. As for my supposed self-promotion, TDN's Outdoors Editor asked me to write that column.I dispute most of your points. An ecopark resort owner holding a few elk in captivity is not going to answer anything. Your allegation that some posts of antler deformities proves hoof disease is not limited to the hooves is ridiculous. You have no understanding of scientific process and yet you communicate misinformation to the public. You try to paint yourself as some savior in a david v. goliath battle, but the reality is you are dead wrong and nothing you are doing is beneficial to wildlife. Nothing.
Btw, that eco park resort owner just won the primary for Cowlitz County Commissioner and is heading into the general election. And it's more than just a few people who've seen some odd antlers: http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155341.msg2061466.html#msg2061466 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155341.msg2061466.html#msg2061466)
You'll eat your crow soon enough. Keep on chattering. It keeps me motivated :tup:
I could care less if your ecopark buddy is elected county commissioner and you guys eat crow or whatever else you want. The STATE (not Cowlitz County) manages our wildlife resources and they are way ahead of you guys in understanding and solving this problem. I do not have much appetite for journalists/resort owners/politicians claiming to know more than a panel of independent wildlife and veterinary experts on this issue based on the evidence and information provided by both sides.
As far as your personal attacks comment...nothing could be further from the truth. I'm sure you are a wonderful and kind person and a talented author. You are just very wrong and very misdirected on this issue. Being a wonderful person does not give you a license to spread misinformation (even if its unintentional) or somehow shield you from folks pointing out where you are wrong.
Post by: Slimdog350 on September 02, 2014, 10:59:15 AM
It's funny to me, idahohuntr. You never dispute any of my points. Just more personal attacks. As for my supposed self-promotion, TDN's Outdoors Editor asked me to write that column.I sure hope the owner of Eco park doesn't win the race(which he won't). I can't stand the guy. He is incredibly arrogant and I've seen him freak out over the most red oculus things. It would be bad for cowlitz county to have him as a commissioner. As for the op we just need the wdfw to admit there is a problem and make an actual effort to save our elk herd. Instead they come up with excuses. Everyone at wdfw needs replaced. Management at least.
Btw, that eco park resort owner just won the primary for Cowlitz County Commissioner and is heading into the general election. And it's more than just a few people who've seen some odd antlers: http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155341.msg2061466.html#msg2061466 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155341.msg2061466.html#msg2061466)
You'll eat your crow soon enough. Keep on chattering. It keeps me motivated :tup:
Post by: SnakeEyes on September 02, 2014, 11:03:17 AM
I attended most of the hoof rot meetings in my local area. So many questions were asked to the experts that were not answered. There were great ideas and suggestions from the advisory panel that were brushed off. The supposed science you call it is so narrowly focused there is no way they will figure this out anytime soon. There was not enough emphasis or resources put to this issue years ago. Even now the funds allotted to try to find the answer is not enough.
Real science would explore all options. Not just the ones they want to look at or can afford to look at.
Please be more respectful and maybe you will get the same in return.
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 02, 2014, 11:20:49 AM
idahohuntr, I think you are very disrespectful to other members on this forum. These members are trying to make a difference and make aware the issues and you try to discount their efforts and put them down. It amazes me that the moderators allow this to continue.
I attended most of the hoof rot meetings in my local area. So many questions were asked to the experts that were not answered. There were great ideas and suggestions from the advisory panel that were brushed off. The supposed science you call it is so narrowly focused there is no way they will figure this out anytime soon. There was not enough emphasis or resources put to this issue years ago. Even now the funds allotted to try to find the answer is not enough.
Real science would explore all options. Not just the ones they want to look at or can afford to look at.
Please be more respectful and maybe you will get the same in return.
That's what he does, snakeeyes. According to him, anyone who disagrees with the WDFW on this issue is making it all up and he'll do his best to sling mud at them, and then claim later it's others who do the slinging. Jon Gosch, Bruce Barnes, Crystal Davies, Dr. Boone Mora, and Ed Barnes have all been working on this for years. It was these people and their pushing that finally got the WDFW off its butt and working on hoof disease. Had these people NOT done what they've done, I believe the WDFW would still be dragging its feet on the issue, if working on it at all. These people are doing the same thing with the spraying issue and trying to get those WDFW associated scientists to look for these chemicals. Eventually, when enough of the public bangs their desks, maybe their "science" will be more well-rounded. So far, they've flat out refused to look for agricultural chemicals.
Post by: SnakeEyes on September 02, 2014, 12:07:42 PM
It's funny to me, idahohuntr. You never dispute any of my points. Just more personal attacks. As for my supposed self-promotion, TDN's Outdoors Editor asked me to write that column.I sure hope the owner of Eco park doesn't win the race(which he won't). I can't stand the guy. He is incredibly arrogant and I've seen him freak out over the most red oculus things. It would be bad for cowlitz county to have him as a commissioner. As for the op we just need the wdfw to admit there is a problem and make an actual effort to save our elk herd. Instead they come up with excuses. Everyone at wdfw needs replaced. Management at least.
Btw, that eco park resort owner just won the primary for Cowlitz County Commissioner and is heading into the general election. And it's more than just a few people who've seen some odd antlers: http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155341.msg2061466.html#msg2061466 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155341.msg2061466.html#msg2061466)
You'll eat your crow soon enough. Keep on chattering. It keeps me motivated :tup:
I do not know the Eco Park owner personally but I know he is very active in making people aware of the hoof rot issue. He seems to be the type of person that is not afraid to take action and not sit back on his heels and wait for someone else to do it. He has helped moderate some of the hoof rot meetings. I think he would have my vote if I was a Cowlitz County voter.
Post by: idahohuntr on September 02, 2014, 12:43:50 PM
idahohuntr, I think you are very disrespectful to other members on this forum. These members are trying to make a difference and make aware the issues and you try to discount their efforts and put them down. It amazes me that the moderators allow this to continue.Snakeyes- I believe you are disrespectful and condescending on this forum. You are also extremely disrespectful to many hard working public servants and volunteers. It would behoove you and a few others to really look at that last line you wrote if you want to start being the "respect police". You might also want to ponder who has and has not been moderated in these hoof rot threads and how that maybe doesn't fit your little narrative where I am just here attacking these really good people trying to make a difference... :puke:
I attended most of the hoof rot meetings in my local area. So many questions were asked to the experts that were not answered. There were great ideas and suggestions from the advisory panel that were brushed off. The supposed science you call it is so narrowly focused there is no way they will figure this out anytime soon. There was not enough emphasis or resources put to this issue years ago. Even now the funds allotted to try to find the answer is not enough.
Real science would explore all options. Not just the ones they want to look at or can afford to look at.
Please be more respectful and maybe you will get the same in return.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on September 02, 2014, 12:52:16 PM
As he does it again! :yeah:idahohuntr, I think you are very disrespectful to other members on this forum. These members are trying to make a difference and make aware the issues and you try to discount their efforts and put them down. It amazes me that the moderators allow this to continue.
I attended most of the hoof rot meetings in my local area. So many questions were asked to the experts that were not answered. There were great ideas and suggestions from the advisory panel that were brushed off. The supposed science you call it is so narrowly focused there is no way they will figure this out anytime soon. There was not enough emphasis or resources put to this issue years ago. Even now the funds allotted to try to find the answer is not enough.
Real science would explore all options. Not just the ones they want to look at or can afford to look at.
Please be more respectful and maybe you will get the same in return.
That's what he does, snakeeyes. According to him, anyone who disagrees with the WDFW on this issue is making it all up and he'll do his best to sling mud at them, and then claim later it's others who do the slinging. Jon Gosch, Bruce Barnes, Crystal Davies, Dr. Boone Mora, and Ed Barnes have all been working on this for years. It was these people and their pushing that finally got the WDFW off its butt and working on hoof disease. Had these people NOT done what they've done, I believe the WDFW would still be dragging its feet on the issue, if working on it at all. These people are doing the same thing with the spraying issue and trying to get those WDFW associated scientists to look for these chemicals. Eventually, when enough of the public bangs their desks, maybe their "science" will be more well-rounded. So far, they've flat out refused to look for agricultural chemicals.
Post by: SnakeEyes on September 02, 2014, 01:03:54 PM
idahohuntr, I think you are very disrespectful to other members on this forum. These members are trying to make a difference and make aware the issues and you try to discount their efforts and put them down. It amazes me that the moderators allow this to continue.Snakeyes- I believe you are disrespectful and condescending on this forum. You are also extremely disrespectful to many hard working public servants and volunteers. It would behoove you and a few others to really look at that last line you wrote if you want to start being the "respect police". You might also want to ponder who has and has not been moderated in these hoof rot threads and how that maybe doesn't fit your little narrative where I am just here attacking these really good people trying to make a difference... :puke:
I attended most of the hoof rot meetings in my local area. So many questions were asked to the experts that were not answered. There were great ideas and suggestions from the advisory panel that were brushed off. The supposed science you call it is so narrowly focused there is no way they will figure this out anytime soon. There was not enough emphasis or resources put to this issue years ago. Even now the funds allotted to try to find the answer is not enough.
Real science would explore all options. Not just the ones they want to look at or can afford to look at.
Please be more respectful and maybe you will get the same in return.
I am not going to play your game. Calling jongosch a liar is very disrespectful. You can play the words any way you want. If I called someone a liar on a private forum I would expect to be banned or moderated. Enough said.
Post by: idahohuntr on September 02, 2014, 01:35:03 PM
1. I never called anyone a liar in this thread.
2. When people lie, they are indeed liars.
In fact, based on forum rules I think its the liars who should be banned...not the folks who call them on it.
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 02, 2014, 01:45:27 PM
idahohuntr, I think you are very disrespectful to other members on this forum. These members are trying to make a difference and make aware the issues and you try to discount their efforts and put them down. It amazes me that the moderators allow this to continue.Snakeyes- I believe you are disrespectful and condescending on this forum. You are also extremely disrespectful to many hard working public servants and volunteers. It would behoove you and a few others to really look at that last line you wrote if you want to start being the "respect police". You might also want to ponder who has and has not been moderated in these hoof rot threads and how that maybe doesn't fit your little narrative where I am just here attacking these really good people trying to make a difference... :puke:
I attended most of the hoof rot meetings in my local area. So many questions were asked to the experts that were not answered. There were great ideas and suggestions from the advisory panel that were brushed off. The supposed science you call it is so narrowly focused there is no way they will figure this out anytime soon. There was not enough emphasis or resources put to this issue years ago. Even now the funds allotted to try to find the answer is not enough.
Real science would explore all options. Not just the ones they want to look at or can afford to look at.
Please be more respectful and maybe you will get the same in return.
I am not going to play your game. Calling jongosch a liar is very disrespectful. You can play the words any way you want. If I called someone a liar on a private forum I would expect to be banned or moderated. Enough said.
Don't play it. He lies about not having associations with the WDFW and the government when some of us know better. Jon Gosch has lied about nothing. He's only asked the WDFW to broaden the scope of their research, so far to no avail. He has been very forthright and open that he doesn't have the answers but that we'll also never have them if we're not willing to look in all areas. The amount of personal free time that people like Jon have put into the future of our elk and the impact that they have had to force the WDFW to take action is not lies. It's commendable civil responsibility. Only a government lapdog would attempt to turn that into something bad.
Post by: idahohuntr on September 02, 2014, 05:35:20 PM
He lies about not having associations with the WDFW and the government when some of us know better.
Piano- You are the liar. I have no more association with WDFW than you do...probably less. I buy fishing/hunting licenses from them and I am a gmac volunteer. But please, if you are telling the truth, back it up with some facts...what association am I lying about? Certainly you do not want to disappoint all these folks and remain quiet on the subject...just what is my association that I have lied about???
Post by: billjr64 on September 02, 2014, 06:11:19 PM
Post by: billjr64 on September 02, 2014, 06:32:30 PM
Post by: BrushChimp on September 02, 2014, 07:05:31 PM
"Its obviously time to put and end to this dangerous practice. The Timber and Chemical Companies along with WDFW need to be held accountable when its proven that the Herbicides were the cause of this."
Cause? CAUSE?!?! :puke: These non-scientific conclusions need to be toned down. It is possible to question the use of chemicals and not come off as an all out environmentalist.
Quote
Making the statement that there are more elk today than 80-100 years ago is ridiculous. Anyone who's done any study of sport and regulated hunting knows that the elk were almost gone 100 years ago due to commercial/market hunters, and it's taken that long to bring them back. A comparison like that is meant to throw off the uninformed. You'll probably have to find another group to fool with that one.
It was not my intention to throw off anyone. So let's say 150 years ago? 200? 300? Whatever the date in recent history, it will be found that there are more elk today than there were then. Unless "then" was, oh say the last volcanic eruption. There was nothing to "bring them back" from. There hasn't been a period of this length with this much early seral habitat for quite some time. Maybe ancient wildfires, but those were long, long, long ago.
I take that all these same folks who believe chemicals are a cause also agree that there are "so few elk in SW Washington?" Is it possible to agree with a person on the point of being anti-chemical and also disagree on the elk population? I sure hope so otherwise it may seem to some as though folks are jumping on the bandwagon. Agreeing on all points so a small minority (maybe even a single individual or two) seem more cohesive and/or stronger with their arguments.
Post by: Coastal_native on September 02, 2014, 07:29:20 PM
I know exactly where the elk have went, we ate them. They did not die of hoof rot, I saw more dead elk in the winters of 95, 96, by far, than I am seeing now. Here`s the proof, 2,500 cow tags issued in the Mt St Helens area for the last 6 years. That`s 15,000 cow elk killed in 6 years. Many of those years I talked to camps that had a seemingly un-endless supply of tags, 9 cow tags in one camp I remember. No one can quantify how many cows were shot without a tag since it became so common to see people with cow elk harvested. When the hoof rot became the focus I believe many elk were shot by hunters if they showed a limp. Then there`s the over the counter availability and the proximity to Oregon that has went to a nearly state wide draw for elk.
Has it really been 100% success on those cow tags?
Post by: billjr64 on September 02, 2014, 07:46:53 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on September 02, 2014, 07:52:25 PM
Oh yay, first article comment:Very good points brushchimp...I have said many times that reducing chemicals and pollution and toxins in the environment is a good thing...I'm just not willing to accept that timber/herbicides/wdfw are the cause of hoof rot with the available evidence. While they like to claim wdfw won't look at herbicides...the reality is a few vocal folks are unwilling to accept any answer except herbicides being the cause...no matter how little evidence exists to support their claims.
"Its obviously time to put and end to this dangerous practice. The Timber and Chemical Companies along with WDFW need to be held accountable when its proven that the Herbicides were the cause of this."
Cause? CAUSE?!?! :puke: These non-scientific conclusions need to be toned down. It is possible to question the use of chemicals and not come off as an all out environmentalist.
Post by: Coastal_native on September 02, 2014, 07:53:37 PM
Post by: billjr64 on September 02, 2014, 08:02:30 PM
Post by: billjr64 on September 02, 2014, 08:11:42 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on September 03, 2014, 07:28:31 AM
Funny thing about liars...you call them out on their bs and they get real quiet all of a sudden. How about you do the right thing piano and remove your post where you lie about me?He lies about not having associations with the WDFW and the government when some of us know better.
Piano- You are the liar. I have no more association with WDFW than you do...probably less. I buy fishing/hunting licenses from them and I am a gmac volunteer. But please, if you are telling the truth, back it up with some facts...what association am I lying about? Certainly you do not want to disappoint all these folks and remain quiet on the subject...just what is my association that I have lied about???
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on September 03, 2014, 07:59:51 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 03, 2014, 08:05:51 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on September 03, 2014, 09:11:42 AM
Nothing to see here, right? :rolleyes: At least the director of the WDFW had the intestinal fortitude and integrity to introduce himself when he posted up a thread a while ago. Anyone hiding behind behind their username and pretending to be something they're not, that's CS. My :twocents:There is no pretending here bud. There are far too many nutjobs on the internet for me to want to go posting all kinds of personal information. I would guess a huge percentage of folks on here do not post personal information or use their real name...including you. Your continued insinuation that I work for wdfw or have lied about any association with them is what is bs...particularly when you fail to provide any supporting facts...as you recall you said "you and a few others know" You don't want to retract your lie...fine. Liars usually don't have any dignity or character anyways :twocents:
Post by: jackelope on September 03, 2014, 09:23:41 AM
When you all can carry on an adult conversation like adults, let me know.