Post by: jetjockey on September 14, 2014, 11:21:58 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on September 15, 2014, 08:37:24 AM
when you train and run your own dog from where you live you might come up with a different view of the little world.
Post by: Blackjaw on September 15, 2014, 08:46:50 AM
Post by: jetjockey on September 15, 2014, 09:26:44 AM
AF is really influential on the West Coast :chuckle:
when you train and run your own dog from where you live you might come up with a different view of the little world.
That's because the west coast has very little influence in the pointing dog world. When was the las time an AF NC came from the west coast? If you want to support an organization who would like to erode your rights, feel free to continue to support the AKC. I however, would much prefer to support an organization who's only goal is to support hunting dogs. There's a reason the GSP folks split from the AKC, and most the Pointer and Setter guys don't even register with AKC. With the AKC's current stance, many more pointing dog breeds will as well. If it weren't for the ABC Brit Nationals, I wouldn't even register my litter with the AKC. Since all the Brit Championships are already dual sanctioned, walking away from the AKC would be a non issue for the field dogs. Of course the show dog people, the ones who run the AKC, might have an issue with that. But 99% of their dogs suck anyways. That's why the AKC Pointer and Setter Nationals is considered a joke.
Post by: Special T on September 15, 2014, 09:30:24 AM
Post by: jetjockey on September 15, 2014, 09:34:16 AM
There isn't much option for flushing spaniels (Springers and Cockers). AKC Field Trials, Hunt Tests, or??
Not now, but that will change if the AKC keeps up what they are doing. Like I said, in the Pointing dog world, the Ponter and Setter guys already have nothig to do with the AKC. The GSP folks have split, and there is a lot of people who want to do the same in the Brit world. Those are the 4 biggest pointing breeds by number in the US.
Post by: jetjockey on September 15, 2014, 09:42:14 AM
Interesting... JJ besides E collars what other things make AKC less sporting dog friendly?
It's not they are necessarily less sporting dog friendly, it's the fact that sporting dogs are not their top priority. Go look at an AF pointer, and compare it to an AKC show pointer. Same thing with springers, Weims, cockers, etc. When the show people take over, the field ability of the dog is no longer the top concern. How many AKC hunting breeds have had the hunt bred out of them so they look better in the show ring? LOTS!! That's the problem with the AKC. Now, some will say the AKC is just a registering organization, but that's BS. If they were, they wouldn't be coming out against E-collars when they have no idea how they work.
Post by: Blackjaw on September 15, 2014, 09:43:29 AM
In regard to your last post. Are there other breeds besides cockers and springers that are pushing (or have tried to push) for an official split between field bred and show bred?
Post by: jetjockey on September 15, 2014, 09:52:27 AM
Post by: jetjockey on September 15, 2014, 10:05:37 AM
Post by: Bluemoon on September 15, 2014, 10:45:34 AM
I do agree with you that the AKC is becoming a joke. Many of us now state it stands for " All Kinds of Cash" but it does have it place. There are many people who can't take weeks off to go to a AF event or can't afford a Pro to train, run and handle their dogs. So the AKC venues is all they have. It does not make their dogs any less of a bird dog. Just please consider the whole picture before you get on your soap box.
Regards
Post by: jetjockey on September 15, 2014, 11:15:25 AM
As far as AF vs NAVHDA is concerned, who knows why NAVHDA broke away. Many, if not most of the AF trials held down here in the South are ran on wild birds. #1. You can't shoot wild birds out of season, so trial season would be very short if you were required to. #2. In a big trial, 1 single trial would decimate the wild bird population. Is that good stewardship? Does NAVHDA run on wild birds? Nope. So How does running dogs on planted birds promote good bird dogs?
Post by: Bluemoon on September 15, 2014, 11:35:12 AM
I will also state that my Pointers are both AF and AKC registered. I am now on my 4th generation of my own breedings and my foundation dog was out of Bly Spy Master and Nevada Hankette which were both AF National Champions. I by choice chose to run AKC events because of the politics of AF trials which is a whole topic on it's own. Now the only thing that is important to me is having the best possible guide dogs there is for our clients to make their hunting experience the best it can be..May you and your new pups win many trials and Nat. CH's.
Post by: jetjockey on September 15, 2014, 11:58:19 AM
That doesn't change the fact that the AKC seems to be supporting issues that are contrary to the hunting dog crowds best interests. Getting AF sanctioned trials would be very easy on the West coast, and no different then what has happened on the East coast. You can run weekend trials under AF as well as Championships.
Post by: Bluemoon on September 15, 2014, 12:20:20 PM
Last I checked this was Hunt Washington not Hunt the South. I only trialed for 35 years and ran and trained my own dogs not write a check and become an expert.
Enjoy your trial season.
Nuff said!!!
Post by: jetjockey on September 15, 2014, 12:34:05 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on September 15, 2014, 02:13:49 PM
Post by: jetjockey on September 15, 2014, 02:20:16 PM
Post by: jetjockey on September 15, 2014, 02:39:15 PM
On Saturday morning, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training, a buzzed about subject triggered from the release of a recent study.
The AKC has never called for a ban on e-collars. The AKC supports choice in training methods, as well as trusting the experts. Our thousands of field trial, performance and companion participants are the experts, those with the training experience and knowledge to obtain AKC titles on their dogs. It is our opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field. In fact, listed under the heading “Training Collars,” our position in support of e-collars as it pertains to AKC events, dog clubs and professional trainers has not wavered since it was adopted by the Board of Directors in 2001.
When we accept national media opportunities, we see them as a chance to talk to the nearly 57 million dog-owning households across the country who may not know about AKC’s resources and offerings. For better or worse, the vast majority of those owners will face struggles at the most basic level of training, not the complexities of handling performance-level dogs in the field or advanced companion work. When we appeared on Fox & Friends, it was our intention to speak to those novice owners who are seeking the best methods to create well-trained pets. Those methods do not include misuse or overuse of e-collars at the hands of amateur owners, an opinion with which I’m sure any dog expert can agree. AKC maintains its encouragement of positive reinforcement techniques for those beginner owners.
We continue to support the training techniques used by our experienced, responsible, and dedicated performance and companion competitors, and we apologize for not making that distinction clear during Saturday’s segment.
Sincerely,
James Crowley, Executive Secretary
American Kennel Club
Post by: wildweeds on September 15, 2014, 07:46:54 PM
Post by: jetjockey on September 16, 2014, 07:33:44 AM
Post by: AspenBud on September 16, 2014, 09:10:27 AM
Interesting... JJ besides E collars what other things make AKC less sporting dog friendly?
Take a gander at an Irish Setter and then look at every other pointing dog on a show bench.
Post by: AspenBud on September 16, 2014, 09:24:07 AM
Jet you stated that AF promotes hunting dogs then why did NAVHDA break away from them because AF took a stand against shooting and killing birds. It is quite easy to to train a dog to stand there pop a popgun then watch the bird fly away. It is another thing to teach a dog to stand through wing and shot and retrieve to hand. What good is a hunting dog that can't retrieve?
I realize that we could argue about this all day, but AF likes to push wild bird trials and not just trials run on pen raised poultry.
You can't shoot wild birds in a trial.
There is also an argument in favor of saying that a dog that can handle wild birds can handle pen raised ones but the reverse is not always true. Retrieving is a trained skill and really has no bearing on whether or not a pointing dog will be an outstanding athlete or bird finder or whether the dog should ultimately be bred.
Discussions like this frequently become blood baths between NSTRA and AF guys. Both have a point.
Post by: AspenBud on September 16, 2014, 09:29:42 AM
Post by: 10Key on September 16, 2014, 09:42:12 AM
The sad thing about this thread is it devolved to this or that registry being better rather than focusing on the fact that the country's biggest registry had a spokesperson openly come out against e-collars on national TV. One of the most relied on, fundamental, tools used by bird dog trainers has been deemed unacceptable and cruel by a registry that is supposed to support bird dog owners.
nailed it
Post by: Happy Gilmore on September 16, 2014, 04:11:05 PM
The sad thing about this thread is it devolved to this or that registry being better rather than focusing on the fact that the country's biggest registry had a spokesperson openly come out against e-collars on national TV. One of the most relied on, fundamental, tools used by bird dog trainers has been deemed unacceptable and cruel by a registry that is supposed to support bird dog owners.
Actually they made it pretty clear that was her personal opinion and they performance dept will chime in shortly. The interview was barely even a couple minutes. The reaction is like PETA to a squirrel kill
Post by: jetjockey on September 16, 2014, 05:51:47 PM
Post by: AspenBud on September 16, 2014, 06:06:58 PM
The sad thing about this thread is it devolved to this or that registry being better rather than focusing on the fact that the country's biggest registry had a spokesperson openly come out against e-collars on national TV. One of the most relied on, fundamental, tools used by bird dog trainers has been deemed unacceptable and cruel by a registry that is supposed to support bird dog owners.
Actually they made it pretty clear that was her personal opinion and they performance dept will chime in shortly. The interview was barely even a couple minutes. The reaction is like PETA to a squirrel kill
That's as it should be. Someone that far up the chain making comments like that on national TV, even for a couple of minutes, is incredibly bad PR that HSUS and PETA live for. She threw bird dog trainers and owners under the bus with a very misinformed opinion and represented it as AKC's stand on them. That can't go unanswered anymore.
Post by: wildweeds on September 16, 2014, 09:23:43 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on September 16, 2014, 09:45:35 PM
Then she needs to be fired. She CLEARLY references the AKC and says "we" believe there are better methods. Never mind the fact that she is on National TV representing the AKC as there spokesman. Nowhere in the interview did she EVER say it was her opinion! She clearly stated it was the opinion of the AKC, and she was representing them as their spokesman. The AKC is just trying to cover their Azz.
AF has an opportunity to make a stand and be influential. They should step up to the plate and do some interviews with Fox News on the subject and use their strong influential power on the east coast to shame the AKC and all the weaknesses of their registration, history and performance dept. history to show the nation.
Post by: jetjockey on September 16, 2014, 10:27:39 PM
The AF should stay out of it. There's no reason to insert themselves into the AKC's internal fight.
Post by: wildweeds on September 16, 2014, 10:32:31 PM
Then she needs to be fired. She CLEARLY references the AKC and says "we" believe there are better methods. Never mind the fact that she is on National TV representing the AKC as there spokesman. Nowhere in the interview did she EVER say it was her opinion! She clearly stated it was the opinion of the AKC, and she was representing them as their spokesman. The AKC is just trying to cover their Azz.
AF has an opportunity to make a stand and be influential. They should step up to the plate and do some interviews with Fox News on the subject and use their strong influential power on the east coast to shame the AKC and all the weaknesses of their registration, history and performance dept. history to show the nation.
Post by: jetjockey on September 16, 2014, 11:20:09 PM
Wild. Before you open your mouth about the South, you might want to come down here and experience it first. It's a pointer AND setter world down here. The problem isn't bias from Setters. The problem is very few Setters get qualified for the National. There was a time when Setters used to OWN the National. Where was the bias then?
Post by: AspenBud on September 17, 2014, 07:37:55 AM
Setters have been a minority at Ames for years and there are some good reasons, not the least of which involves breed personalities. If any of those controversial losses had been made wins I'd bet anything that folks on the Pointer side would have said there was favoritism because it was a setter.
American Field also made no secret that outcrosses between setters and pointers were allowed under certain conditions. They did it for years and those interim dogs were called droppers. People can say what they want about that but it's not a stretch to say that most all setters and pointers competing in a field trial (it does not matter if it's NSTRA, AF, AKC, NBHA, BDC, or whatever) or that come from such heritage (95% of Pointers in the US do) have more than a few AF registered dogs in their breeding at some point. German shorthairs? They aren't called that just because they aren't registered in Germany, many many of them have a heavy dose of vitamin P (Pointer) in them and that includes dogs not involved with field trials. A lot of them are not the same as dogs in Germany and would not pass a DNA test there. Want to take bets where some of the Pointers involved came from? No one's hands are clean (if anyone thinks what AF did is bad) and it's not really an argument when it comes to which organization has had the most influence in field trialdom when it comes to setters and Pointers and even Brittanys.
There are a lot of people who like lines that are set in stone and never outcrossed. Folks breeding llewellin setters are of that mindset. Hardcore Elhew folks are another (and there are only 3-4 true Elhew kennels in this country and they aren't west of the Mississippi). The problem is with time those lines degrade or fail to keep up unless new blood is brought in. Pick your poison, a lot of people swear by Elhew and llewellin breedings for hunting dogs, but if setter folks were dismayed at how long it took to win at Ames the llewellin folks haven't even had a dog compete there in years...and Bob Wehle is dead.
Post by: AspenBud on September 17, 2014, 09:07:28 AM
Why so seldom? Because Pointers are easier and quicker to train to the harsh and peculiar requirements of this extreme sport. Or stated another way, because it generally takes longer for a setter to round into form, and a setter is more likely to suffer a setback in the process, and so fewer and fewer patrons and handlers choose the longhair as a candidate. Economics and impatience."
http://strideaway.com/shadow-oak-bo-meditations-on-a-pedigree/ (http://strideaway.com/shadow-oak-bo-meditations-on-a-pedigree/)
Post by: AspenBud on September 17, 2014, 12:08:25 PM
An amateur will not win an open stake,amateurs winning open stakes steals money from pro trainers/handlers pockets,the amateurs who do win those stakes with any consistancy have very large pocketbooks (Sean Derrig is one,Sean Kelly is another)
Most amateurs will not win because All Age trials at that level really are a rich man's game. You need horses, land, well bred dogs, a good trainer, and money and time to campaign a dog enough just to have a chance at winning enough to make it big. It is simply out of reach for a lot of people.
A lot of guys are probably good enough to drive in NASCAR but most don't have the money for that either.