Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Muzzleloader Hunting => Topic started by: Pete112288 on September 21, 2014, 02:48:25 PM

Title: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Pete112288 on September 21, 2014, 02:48:25 PM: So finally was able to get out this morning to zero my muzzy. I had several things come up throughout the summer that prevented me from doing it sooner. Last year I had the factory fiber optic sights with 100 grains of 777 FFFG and 348 grain powerbelts. I had bad powerbelt experiences and bought a couple boxes of No Excuses 460 grain. Also I replaced the rear sight with a peep. Off a bench last year I was able to keep 3 shot groups all shots touching. I wasnt expecting the same but also was not expecting what I got either. The photo here is what it looked like, the shots are numbered in the order I shot them. I couldnt get a group to even try zeroing. Could this be because of my gun just not liking the load? I was shooting 80 grains 777 FFFG with the No Excuses. They seem almost too easy to load, like they are too small, but that may just me. I was shooting off of a solid bench at 50 yards. Windex patch both sides, dry patch both sides, windex patch both sides, then 3 dry patches both sides an popped a cap between shots. The target is 12 inches diameter, the "group" I had was a solid 8 inches if not closer to 9 or 10. I had the same issue back when I initially sighted in my 30-06 and my 12 ga slug gun, but both of those ended up being a scope mount screw loosening. Checked all my sights and they are all snug. Any helpful ideas? Thank you much
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Damnimissed on September 21, 2014, 02:56:21 PM: I wonder if it would behave better with FFG since you are using a heavy bullet, just like with handloading for rifles, where the heavier bullets do better with a slower powder....
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Dan-o on September 21, 2014, 03:06:30 PM: Thoughts:
1. I would go back and shoot your old powerbelt load - just to make sure they still behave well. If they still behave, that would eliminate at least some rifle issues.
2. 80 grains isn't a very big charge for a 460 grain bullet. I wonder if they're stabilizing??
3. Maybe your rifle just doesn't like the No Excuses.
4. Curious why you're using FFFg? Isn't FFg the recommended powder?
5. Did you happen to drink a Super Big Gulp of Mt. Dew right before your shooting session?
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Pete112288 on September 21, 2014, 03:31:28 PM: Haha, no big gulp or mt. dew. Just Griz green. The very first powder I used was FFG that someone gave me that had like 10 shots worth in it. After I used that there was a shortage in the stores and I grabbed 3 pounds of it the first time i saw it. It ended up being FFFG (at the time I didnt know about FFG and FFFG) It shot great with the powerbelts so I just kept it. The guy that makes No Excuses is the one that suggested that I start at 80 grains till I zero and go up from there a few grains at a time. I am really hoping it may have been shooter error (i was crunched for time today so maybe I rushed) because I dont really have the money to go trying too much else, I have one box of Great Plains Bullets I may have to try just to see.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Pete112288 on September 21, 2014, 03:32:30 PM: Just realized I forgot to add the picture, i added it now
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: CAMPMEAT on September 21, 2014, 03:44:32 PM: A thought, did you clean your barrel real good the last time you shot it ? Soak it in hot soapy water and allowed to dry out completely... :dunno:
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Pete112288 on September 21, 2014, 03:54:34 PM: Yes, actually spent a couple hours on it after season. Since then it was in the safe while I worked on getting a few things, I had to replace the front sight screw and order a couple things from traditions.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: ghosthunter on September 22, 2014, 04:40:19 AM: Well if you are hunting on the 4 th. Time is running out.

I would try 90 grains with that bullet.

Or I would go down to a 300 plus grain at 90-100 grains.

The other thing that I get razed for is my range time. Lots of things in play with a muzzy.
I went to the range yesterday and spent 4.5 hours on two rifles. I like to take my time.
I set a whole day aside for range. If I do not need it fine, I spend the rest time cleaning and checking gear. Muzzy not a place you should be rushing. It's more important than a lot of folks think.

In the time I was there yesterday the benches changed two or three times with shooters. Two muzzy guys next to me stayed half hour less than I did.

Relax take the time.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Duffer on September 22, 2014, 05:10:59 AM: Definitely take your time, but....

A few things you can try:

Big conicals can be finicky. You can try upping the load to get them to obfuscate (sp?) but I suspect you'll need to go with a lighter load. A slower powder would help also. Without a tight bore fit, the powder charge will blow past that heavy conical while trying to get it moving and will 'torch' grooves in the sides of the conical.

If you have time to find some, try putting some sort of wad between the powder and the conical. A lubed felt wad or cardboard wad seems to help. (I've even heard of guys cutting the petals off a sabot to just use the base)

Try the hand 'file' knurl to increase the diameter and maybe get a better seal.

-Try not to get wrapped up in bigger, faster loads. Push for accuracy (or is it precision) :chuckle: over velocity
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: TopOfTheFoodChain on September 22, 2014, 07:52:06 AM: You may have gotten the No Excuses for White muzzleloaders. White uses a slip fit system and in the wrong barrel they would just about fall down in. Did you tell Dave what gun you were ordering them for? I hunt with a White .451 and they are made to load easily but I sure wouldn't use them in something else.

Lets hear some specs on your gun. Caliber, brand, barrel length, and most important..... twist rate.

If you're not stabilizing them due to wrong twist, that lack of pattern can certainly happen. Or you just need to play with your powder load.

I use mostly 3f powder but one of my guns shoots better with 2f. One of them really likes real black powder for the best groups.

Bought a Winchester X150 about 10 years ago and it took me about 300 rounds with various bullets and powders to get it dialed in to a tight group. That barrel is dang picky.

Just keep experimenting, you'll get there eventually.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Pete112288 on September 22, 2014, 02:49:55 PM: My gun is a Traditions Vortek 1:28 twist I believe
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: MountainDevil54 on September 22, 2014, 03:05:58 PM: 100gr T7 is a good amount of powder for a 460gr bullet. You may want to back it down to 70 grains and start from there.

I know my traditions strikerfire and an LDR I had did great with 80gr american pioneer with the 370gr maxiballs.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Pete112288 on September 22, 2014, 05:13:43 PM: Read a little bit about wadding and sub-base things and such. Do you think the same effect could be acchieved by taking the plastic base off of the bottom of a powerbelt and loading the conical on top of it? Those plastic skirts pop off so easy so I thought it might be an idea. I have a bunch of powerbelts I dont plan on using so maybe I could put that part of them to use.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: MountainDevil54 on September 22, 2014, 05:26:12 PM: yeah or you can check out mmp's website and order the sub bases. Trackofthewolf.com sells the 510A wad that works great with concials for an extra seal.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: TopOfTheFoodChain on September 22, 2014, 09:29:59 PM: My daughter shoots the same gun but opposite end of spectrum for bullet. It loves the PR Bullet Double Duplex .50/.357 175grain with 70 grains 3f T7. It also grouped great with about a 300 grain Barnes sabot of some sort - dont remember the exact bullet but it was to much recoil for her two years ago.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: buckhorn2 on September 22, 2014, 09:47:42 PM: My buddy got the vortex last year and we shoot 348 power belts with 3 50 grain triple seven pellets and it shoots really good .
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: deadwoodbuck on September 23, 2014, 03:45:22 PM: hey ghosthunter so much thanks for the 1081 caps the other day at the range...bought a couple of packs in Lynden today. they were the ticket. after the bullets started coming out the barrel...we were able to dial in our sights. your are very kind with your knowledge. but found out that the ol 54 cal is going out as we could not find any polymer tipped boattails to replace the ones we used. so now it's the powerbelt aerotip copper at 348 gr. good luck in your hunt.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Pete112288 on September 23, 2014, 06:39:51 PM: Quote from: buckhorn2 on September 22, 2014, 09:47:42 PM
My buddy got the vortex last year and we shoot 348 power belts with 3 50 grain triple seven pellets and it shoots really good .

Yea, mine shot those like a champ, 2 inch groups on average at 100 yards, quite a few were better then that. But I had some bad expirences with those on my last elk season and heard enough similar reviews that I wont use them again for elk
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Whitelightning on September 23, 2014, 08:04:28 PM: Pete,
If you bought noExcuses and DID NOT tell Dave they were Not for a White you got .503 sized lead for White Rifles. You might try one wrap of Teflon tape around the bullet. There are some guys claiming this works very well to fill the gap per say.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Pete112288 on September 26, 2014, 03:54:23 PM: I have talked to him Dave since I posted this on here. Also I have had time to shoot more. Looks like some of the initial bad shooting was my fault as I expected. The last outing was much better.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: hooker on September 26, 2014, 10:29:04 PM: With some of the bullets this day and age I'd not go over 300gr. Way to much much recoil for starters. 100grs maybe 110 of 777 or pyrdex. Whats the barrel twist? We always foul our barrel then shoot for groups. First shot is almost always nothing like the 2-8th shots.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: hooker on September 26, 2014, 10:34:02 PM: Quote from: Pete112288 on September 22, 2014, 02:49:55 PM
My gun is a Traditions Vortek 1:28 twist I believe

Sorry missed this. Sabot bullets 250-300grain max in my experience. TTSX 250gr is a beast. 295gr powerbelt usually doesn't pass through and rests against the hide on far side. Best part is tracking jobs are usually about 20 yards. 90-110grs of 777 or pyrodex has severed us well. Best of luck to you.

Recoil sucks... hint
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Pete112288 on September 29, 2014, 03:03:35 PM: I got a good shooting session in today. shooting the No Excuses I couldnt keep it on an 18 X 18 inch board at 50 yards. grouped good at 20 yards but beyond that it goes all over the place, off of a bench. Tried 80-100 grains of powder, shot 25 to 30 rounds and no grouping at all beyond 20 yards. Pulled a box of Hornady Great Plains bullets out of my gear that I had picked up last year after my powerbelts failed me. Tried the Great Plains bullets and got good 2 inch groups at 50 yards and 3 inch groups at 100. Guess thats what it is going to be this year. Anyone who shoots No Excuses might watch the classifieds in the next couple weeks, I may put the second full unopened box up on here.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: hooker on September 29, 2014, 07:59:30 PM: To tired to read back right now but do you have a peepsight? I had to go to a peepsight. Made all the difference in the world. Especially past 50yds.
Title: Re: Zeroing Help Please
Post by: Pete112288 on September 29, 2014, 08:26:18 PM: Yes, I am shooting a peep sight