Post by: bigtex on October 02, 2014, 08:42:41 PM
While technically local USFS managers can close/restrict shooting on USFS lands, there is a new memorandum that ALL shooting bans be communicated through DC before any decision is made. Basically the agency doesn't want to be seen as anti-gun.
The White River area is some of the worst areas I have seen in the state in terms of damage and garbage left behind from shooters.
The Crystal River Ranch group is asking for a USFS shooting ban similar to that of the one on the Middle and South Fork of the Snoqualmie River. USFS has said there will be some type of "news" by mid-October.
The group has been involving Dave Reichert on the issues.
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Illegal Shooting & Incident Rptg.
Posted on September 21, 2014 | Leave a comment
** Recent life threatening shooting incident: click Aug 24, 2014
A Greenwater Area volunteer group has compiled years of data on the local illegal recreational shooting problem. Accounts recently obtained such as personal injury, dangerous incidences where bullets barely missed people, property damage, threats to hikers, mountain bikers, runners, campers, commercial work stoppage, equipment destroyed and wild fires sourced to target shooting. There has also been increased destruction of valuable trees and degradation of the environment by recreational target shooting. Click here: Incidents / Support
The volunteer group is not anti-gun, but is convinced prohibiting all recreational shooting in the White River Valley is the necessary action. Closure to recreational shooting would not include permitted in season hunting. This has many similarities to the May 10, 2011 US Dept. of Agriculture (USDA) recreational shooting closure in the middle and south forks of the Snoqualmie River Valley off Interstate 90. Federal level “Environmental Impact Assessment” process is required to do a closure and if accomplished there is enforcement and more challenges. To be included in the group information loop send an email to: shoot@CrystalRiverRanch.org
Current insufficient USDA funding, more budget cuts ahead and legislative changes are the nuts of it. After our Sept. 16, 2014 meeting with USDA forest service top management, they are currently in process of taking our local problem up their command chain.
Important: Call Law Enforcement Officer Jeff Mcintosh 360-789-8834 and email him details jeffreymcintosh@fs.fed.us of any illegal firearm incident. USDA forest service needs all of us to report incidents. Incident data available to USDA will help toward solving the problem. Calling 911 does not provide Pierce County Sheriff or Wa. State Patrol law enforcement follow-up unless incident is bodily injury or fatality.
Every politician who has a leadership role in this area knows something about the problem. Formal meetings and/or written communication has been done.
Use fee for recreational shooting makes great sense, but USDA can only charge fees for facility use not charge fees based on type of activity as established at federal legislative level.
Setting up a managed designated shooting range also makes sense. Implementation of a managed range has multiple challenges and most established ranges in the US on forest service land have liability, administration, expense issues and typically attendance is low by local recreational shooters.
Hiring security or citizen patrols is predicted to be ineffective with 250,000+ acres to patrol.
A few NRA leaders have been contacted and so far nothing positive. NRA and gun enthusiasts are absolutely against public land closed to recreational shooting.
Groups Everytown USA and Wa. State for Gun Responsibility have been contacted. Currently these are totally consumed with the November ballot background check 594 Initiative.
Higher elected officials and getting the media involved is planned after November election.
Legal action is another path a couple of volunteers are digging into.
Photos provided at September 16, 2014 USDA meeting: https://plus.google.com/photos/112504933724954633033/albums/6060505336942454321?sort=1 (https://plus.google.com/photos/112504933724954633033/albums/6060505336942454321?sort=1)
Meeting with USDA management and law enforcement: http://crystalriverranch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/MtgNotesUSDA_Sept16_20140917.pdf (http://crystalriverranch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/MtgNotesUSDA_Sept16_20140917.pdf)
http://crystalriverranch.org/local-shooting-topic-921-4-pm/ (http://crystalriverranch.org/local-shooting-topic-921-4-pm/)
Post by: bobcat on October 02, 2014, 08:51:54 PM
Post by: bigtex on October 02, 2014, 09:01:58 PM
Can't really say I blame them. A lot of the people that go out into the woods to target shoot are pigs. They're probably right- the best solution is to shut down recreational shooting entirely.If you look at the google photos page you see the garbage left over.
Post by: Special T on October 02, 2014, 09:05:16 PM
L around.
Post by: bigtex on October 03, 2014, 09:56:51 AM
Lack of law enforcement
1.Full time Forest Service Enumclaw based law enforcement officer (LEO) position budget cut 2011. Budget reduced 12% 2014 and another 12% reduction 2015.
2.USDA Forest Service including our area had five LEO’s prior to 2011, now. Anticipated reduction 2015 to two.
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CRR is true regarding #1. However in #2 the 5 LEOs prior to 2011 were for the entire Mt. Baker - Snoqualmie National Forest, not just the White River area. Currently there are 3 LEOs on the forest, and in the coming year another position will be vacated and left unfilled. Meaning there will now be 2 LEOs covering the entire 2.5 million acre forest from Pierce County to the Canadian border.
The Forest Service is not only killing it's own LE program but also the funding that the USFS provides to county and state agencies for LE patrols on USFS lands.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on October 03, 2014, 10:06:53 AM
Post by: bigtex on October 03, 2014, 10:10:38 AM
So, even less enforcement; but they think more laws will be effective?Well I will say this. It has worked in the Snoqualmie River no shooting areas....
Post by: Russ McDonald on October 03, 2014, 10:21:52 AM
The no shooting area only extends up to a certain point in some area along I90. Go up Hanson Creek along the road up to the trail head or FS 9021 road off of exit 38.So, even less enforcement; but they think more laws will be effective?Well I will say this. It has worked in the Snoqualmie River no shooting areas....
Post by: bigtex on October 03, 2014, 10:34:22 AM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,156047.msg2066438.html#msg2066438 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,156047.msg2066438.html#msg2066438) Here is a link I posted a while ago. Our wildlife biologist when on a detail out east and this is on FS land. He is wanting to try and do this on the MBS but of course it will be all about funding and these groups.I like it Russ. In WA the Recreation and Conservation Office gives out $500,000 every two years for funding firearms and archery range grants. The max one project can receive is $150,000. Unfortunately WDFW doesn't really get involved in the shooting range "entity" like some other states. It would be interesting to see what agency/group the USFS would work with here.
Post by: Special T on October 03, 2014, 10:48:42 AM
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on October 03, 2014, 10:56:04 AM
Post by: bigtex on October 03, 2014, 11:03:14 AM
We over the years have hauled out our more than fare share of garbage from up there and out behind Wilkerson.:yeah:
Wilkeson is BAD. A lot of it is actually on private land too, the Hancock timber property at the beginning of the USFS road gets hit hard with shooters. So you not only have people trespassing on Hancock land, but also target shooting which Hancock doesn't allow. I think the reason we don't see some type of USFS closure in the Wilkeson area is 1- there is no type of resident group like there is in the White River corridor and 2- there really isn't a whole lot of recreation going on in the Wilkeson area in terms of trails, bike riders, etc. That area seems to be controlled by the 4-wheelers, shooters, and hunters.
Post by: csaaphill on October 05, 2014, 02:33:44 AM
why? because you give an inch they will take a mile.
I knew we'd be at odds with other types out in the field.
Bird watchers, hikers, tree hugers, you name it so no If asked or if theres a way to fight this I will! :tup:
Post by: huntingfool7 on October 05, 2014, 07:48:43 AM
Most if not all of the pictures in the "photo album" are from the locations above Wilkeson.We over the years have hauled out our more than fare share of garbage from up there and out behind Wilkerson.:yeah:
Wilkeson is BAD. A lot of it is actually on private land too, the Hancock timber property at the beginning of the USFS road gets hit hard with shooters. So you not only have people trespassing on Hancock land, but also target shooting which Hancock doesn't allow. I think the reason we don't see some type of USFS closure in the Wilkeson area is 1- there is no type of resident group like there is in the White River corridor and 2- there really isn't a whole lot of recreation going on in the Wilkeson area in terms of trails, bike riders, etc. That area seems to be controlled by the 4-wheelers, shooters, and hunters.
Post by: netcoyote on October 05, 2014, 09:17:02 AM
Can't really say I blame them. A lot of the people that go out into the woods to target shoot are pigs. They're probably right- the best solution is to shut down recreational shooting entirely.
I posted something similar to this last year about some DNR land and got hammered by H-W folks. Even got labeled as de facto gun control.
I think the only possible solution is to really ramp up the effort to teach kids more about outdoor ethics. That's a long term approach and it's probably a "too little, too late" approach but we've got to start somewhere. Once these lands are lost to recreational shooting, it would be very unlikely that they could be opened up at some point in the future.
The closure is probably inevitable considering the growth in population in this area and the prevalent anti-gun sentiment. We can keep picking up the trash and keep actively objecting to closures but I just don't see these areas staying open for long.
Post by: timberfaller on October 06, 2014, 11:04:23 AM
Way to many "greenies" in their ranks. Remember the "lead" issues? Not only are the "Bio-diversity" groups in a all out effort to ban lead, so are the folks in WDFW and USFS and USFW, who are assisting the Bio groups in the public domain.
Ever been to the "public range" above Winthrop the Friday before season opener! :yike:
Post by: Russ McDonald on October 06, 2014, 11:18:29 AM
Don't count on WDFW or the USFS to get involved with helping out "shooters" with shooting ranges.So are you saying the FS as a whole or just in this area? Don't know if you looked at the range I posted but that is a FS range that was built with grant money.
Way to many "greenies" in their ranks. Remember the "lead" issues? Not only are the "Bio-diversity" groups in a all out effort to ban lead, so are the folks in WDFW and USFS and USFW, who are assisting the Bio groups in the public domain.
Ever been to the "public range" above Winthrop the Friday before season opener! :yike: