Post by: high country on October 29, 2014, 06:34:03 AM
I'm a bit of a realist. I have a barrel of factory barrels that have come off actions and I would wage a bet that not a one will be under .001" runout, which is 5 times more than any self respecting accuracy smith will let out the door. I've shot several videos of Remington actions on the lathe with the bolt centerline at zero and the face flopping wildly. I have never seen a recoil lug on a factory gun be square. .....ever. crowns are cut at the factory with about 10 seconds of care....
What's all this mean? If you are seriously getting a factory rifle to shoot sub .5moa for 10 rounds, you are both very lucky and very lucky.
If you are seriously interested in what makes a rifle accurate, I would suggest a copy of "rifle accuracy facts" by Harold Vaughn. He's possibly the smartest gun nut alive and takes actual measurement on every aspect of a rife that you and all of your buddies can dream up. I'm rarely over my head on tech data, but I had to read a couple chapters REALLY SLOWLY.
if you think I'm full of it, keep shooting squirrels at 1500 with grandpa's 30-30 wearing that buck master.
Post by: Miles on October 29, 2014, 06:53:15 AM
Post by: high country on October 29, 2014, 06:54:27 AM
Richard Franklin produced a video that covers reloading with Wilson dies better than any I have seen and explains the "why" to do and not do certain things.
Les Brooks has made available to the public a thumb drive filled with 30 years of experience as the instructor of gunsmithing at tsjc.
These are all awesome reference pieces that serious accuracy hounds should have available. Franklin's hand loading being a must-have.
Post by: high country on October 29, 2014, 06:55:35 AM
This is what you wake up thinking about?
I didn't get to go hunting and I had a great time reading some stuff.....lol
Post by: addicted on October 29, 2014, 11:10:09 AM
Post by: runamuk on October 29, 2014, 11:16:24 AM
Post by: Biggerhammer on October 29, 2014, 11:25:12 AM
There is no perfect way to go about it, it's what works for the individual. In my expirience around many a long range shooter and or accuracy driven types. They either have it or they don't.
Post by: high country on October 29, 2014, 12:22:28 PM
Every gun will shoot something reasonably well. I prefer those that shoot everything reasonably well.
Post by: Biggerhammer on October 29, 2014, 12:30:26 PM
Post by: high country on October 29, 2014, 12:50:03 PM
Post by: coachcw on October 29, 2014, 12:59:11 PM
Post by: b23 on October 29, 2014, 01:01:48 PM
In my expirience over the years, there are certain cartridges that shoot most everything reasonably well. The .300 Win Mag being one of them.
I'd agree with that but I also believe cartridges that are less "overbore", I use that term VERY loosely, tend to be that way. That IS NOT meant as a slight in any way toward a 300 Win Mag.
Post by: sirmissalot on October 29, 2014, 01:08:22 PM
One thing that I see pooch accuracy and is overlooked is optics. I have seen scopes doom a good rifle plenty of times.Can you elaborate?
My dad recently got a cooper rifle chambered in 300 weatherby. He kept attempting load development at 200 yards and was growing frustrated. I talked him into just sticking to 100 yards and he found a couple good loads from 1/2-3/4 range then wanted to fine tune at 200 and his groups opened up significantly, like 4 inches. Turns out it was parallax causing it. He's got a vx6 4-24 power and at 24 power he didn't have it adjusted correctly... Neither of us had any idea parallax could change point of impact. I always just thought it was for focusing and that's it. After learning how to adjust for it my groups tightened up significantly as well. So I'm curious as to what you have to say on the optics side of the discussion
Post by: high country on October 29, 2014, 03:17:11 PM
trigger pull and stock binding are the two biggest issues in my mind , with a little work most guns will shoot better than us. though it is cool to have a 5k rifle that clover leafs at 300 yards :chuckle: ten shot groups don't interest me in the least . three shot groups 1/2 moa on a cold bore work for me :tup: I don't know why you guys are wasting so much money on powder and lead when the 6.5x284 flat gets it done ! lol. now go shoot that beer can at 600 yards cold bore with a 10 mph cross wind using spot on ballistics :chuckle:
I did except it was 800 yds and 260ai. .....wink.
Post by: coachcw on October 29, 2014, 03:50:15 PM
every body gets lucky once :chuckle:trigger pull and stock binding are the two biggest issues in my mind , with a little work most guns will shoot better than us. though it is cool to have a 5k rifle that clover leafs at 300 yards :chuckle: ten shot groups don't interest me in the least . three shot groups 1/2 moa on a cold bore work for me :tup: I don't know why you guys are wasting so much money on powder and lead when the 6.5x284 flat gets it done ! lol. now go shoot that beer can at 600 yards cold bore with a 10 mph cross wind using spot on ballistics :chuckle:
I did except it was 800 yds and 260ai. .....wink.
Post by: VarmintVentilator on October 29, 2014, 04:21:16 PM
Post by: RadSav on October 29, 2014, 04:21:26 PM
In my expirience over the years, there are certain cartridges that shoot most everything reasonably well. The .300 Win Mag being one of them.
I agree! Seems .30 cal is a magician. 30-30, 308Win, 30-06, 300WM every one I have had from lever guns to LR target rifles seem very adaptive to bullet weight and designs. Even to factory ammo to a large degree. My 7mm's on the other hand can be fickle little B$%ches :o
Post by: jasnt on October 29, 2014, 04:36:26 PM
In my expirience over the years, there are certain cartridges that shoot most everything reasonably well. The .300 Win Mag being one of them.2nd that one! Also love 243 for <500. Glad I'm not the only one who wakes up talking about this.
I did have a cheap REM 770 that would shoot 1/3 moa out to 500 (3 shot not 10) but only with 58gr vmax and re15 still have that gun but after 4000ish rounds its close to moa on a good day. Worse others. Now I'm shooting a custom 700 SPS Varmint in an XLR chassi topped with a viper PST. Timmeny pro and Berger columns these shoot great! I shoot a 3" steel at 400 pretty good but stretch it to 500 and I'm having trouble keeping it on a 6" unless there's no wind. 10 round sessions.
Post by: high country on October 29, 2014, 06:45:43 PM
One thing that I see pooch accuracy and is overlooked is optics. I have seen scopes doom a good rifle plenty of times.Can you elaborate?
My dad recently got a cooper rifle chambered in 300 weatherby. He kept attempting load development at 200 yards and was growing frustrated. I talked him into just sticking to 100 yards and he found a couple good loads from 1/2-3/4 range then wanted to fine tune at 200 and his groups opened up significantly, like 4 inches. Turns out it was parallax causing it. He's got a vx6 4-24 power and at 24 power he didn't have it adjusted correctly... Neither of us had any idea parallax could change point of impact. I always just thought it was for focusing and that's it. After learning how to adjust for it my groups tightened up significantly as well. So I'm curious as to what you have to say on the optics side of the discussion
Parallax will manifest itself for sure. It exists in all scopes to some degree, but somewhere just north of 10x it becomes troublesome. If you move your head while looking through the scope, and the reticle moves.....you are watching parallax in real time. My reference was to scopes that won't repeat or shifting zero. I've seen several that just quit holding zero at some point. I had a very lightweight 300rum that just beat scopes to death. Some lost reticles, some didn't but would never hold after the whooping. If you ever get a chance to watch a slow motion video of the recoil and what it does to a scope it's a wonder they hold up as well as they do.
Post by: jay.sharkbait on October 29, 2014, 06:54:58 PM
Post by: yorketransport on October 29, 2014, 08:34:40 PM
And none of this matters if you can't read wind.......I don't need to read wind, I'm only shooting at 100 yards. :chuckle: Besides, my Kestrel said that it's a 5 mph wind here, it must be the same 800 yards away too! :bash:
I did have a factory Savage LRPV in 22-250 that was a sub .25 MOA gun at 100 yards for 5 shot groups every time I took it out. Every once in a while it would cut that in half. This was with a very specific load though that never did better than .5 MOA past 200 yards no matter who shot it. I never wanted to test my luck by trying for 10 shots groups though! I only see a need for 10 shot groups with serious target guns. My long range plinking guns get 5 shot groups at 300 yards or greater, and the hunting guns get 3 shot groups at whatever range I decide is their max.
Andrew
Post by: longrangekiller on October 29, 2014, 10:03:58 PM
Post by: Cap.Silver on October 29, 2014, 10:35:35 PM
Post by: runamuk on October 29, 2014, 10:48:11 PM
In my expirience over the years, there are certain cartridges that shoot most everything reasonably well. The .300 Win Mag being one of them.
I agree! Seems .30 cal is a magician. 30-30, 308Win, 30-06, 300WM every one I have had from lever guns to LR target rifles seem very adaptive to bullet weight and designs. Even to factory ammo to a large degree. My 7mm's on the other hand can be fickle little B$%ches :o
I like my fickle 7mm08 she did exactly what I expected her persnickety butt to do :chuckle: I cleaned her then went to make sure scope and such and whats were still on. I had no trigger time really this last year...but she does what she does....first one was a flyer...next two touching right where I sent them. dirty little.....
apparently my AR I built is a good lil gun as well its off on safari visiting a friend and they have been having fun with it, it felt good being told I built a good gun.
Post by: RadSav on October 29, 2014, 11:35:16 PM
In my expirience over the years, there are certain cartridges that shoot most everything reasonably well. The .300 Win Mag being one of them.
I agree! Seems .30 cal is a magician. 30-30, 308Win, 30-06, 300WM every one I have had from lever guns to LR target rifles seem very adaptive to bullet weight and designs. Even to factory ammo to a large degree. My 7mm's on the other hand can be fickle little B$%ches :o
I like my fickle 7mm08 she did exactly what I expected her persnickety butt to do :chuckle: I cleaned her then went to make sure scope and such and whats were still on. I had no trigger time really this last year...but she does what she does....first one was a flyer...next two touching right where I sent them. dirty little.....
apparently my AR I built is a good lil gun as well its off on safari visiting a friend and they have been having fun with it, it felt good being told I built a good gun.
Women probably appreciate "Fickle" more than the average guy :chuckle:
I love my 7's, but they don't much care for simple stop and shop cubic zirconia. Mine demand diamonds...and the higher the quality the better they treat me ;)
Post by: runamuk on October 29, 2014, 11:53:14 PM
In my expirience over the years, there are certain cartridges that shoot most everything reasonably well. The .300 Win Mag being one of them.
I agree! Seems .30 cal is a magician. 30-30, 308Win, 30-06, 300WM every one I have had from lever guns to LR target rifles seem very adaptive to bullet weight and designs. Even to factory ammo to a large degree. My 7mm's on the other hand can be fickle little B$%ches :o
I like my fickle 7mm08 she did exactly what I expected her persnickety butt to do :chuckle: I cleaned her then went to make sure scope and such and whats were still on. I had no trigger time really this last year...but she does what she does....first one was a flyer...next two touching right where I sent them. dirty little.....
apparently my AR I built is a good lil gun as well its off on safari visiting a friend and they have been having fun with it, it felt good being told I built a good gun.
Women probably appreciate "Fickle" more than the average guy :chuckle:
I love my 7's, but they don't much care for simple stop and shop cubic zirconia. Mine demand diamonds...and the higher the quality the better they treat me ;)
mine just shoots federal stuff still havent gotten round to making it custom feed
Post by: Taco280AI on October 29, 2014, 11:59:47 PM
Factory stuff. Not too bad ;)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1098.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg364%2Fnwoutdoors%2F280AItarget2.jpg&hash=5f53802982744ea586f0facabc0b35e6138dd3a3) (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/nwoutdoors/media/280AItarget2.jpg.html)
First load with 150 TTSXs. Haven't had time to play with it yet but shows a little potential :chuckle:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1098.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg364%2Fnwoutdoors%2Fed659613-f307-404e-af98-210b4608d818.jpg&hash=a66b2a9273b2a330681272742ba964e2c724d332) (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/nwoutdoors/media/ed659613-f307-404e-af98-210b4608d818.jpg.html)
For big game rifles I only care about 3 shot groups
Post by: addicted on October 30, 2014, 01:13:25 AM
I'm picky about accuracy, if a rifle won't shoot at least sub MOA it goes away. And I went the route of having one great rifle vs a couple mediocre rifles for big game. Nothing the 280AI can't do from pronghorn to elk to 500 yards. I have been conflicted on optics because right now it wears an FX3 6x42 which for target shooting handicaps me at any good distance. But on game, which it is a hunting rifle, I don't have any issue.
Factory stuff. Not too bad ;)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1098.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg364%2Fnwoutdoors%2F280AItarget2.jpg&hash=5f53802982744ea586f0facabc0b35e6138dd3a3) (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/nwoutdoors/media/280AItarget2.jpg.html)
First load with 150 TTSXs. Haven't had time to play with it yet but shows a little potential :chuckle:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1098.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg364%2Fnwoutdoors%2Fed659613-f307-404e-af98-210b4608d818.jpg&hash=a66b2a9273b2a330681272742ba964e2c724d332) (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/nwoutdoors/media/ed659613-f307-404e-af98-210b4608d818.jpg.html)
For big game rifles I only care about 3 shot groups
What's your rate of twist. Meopta came out with some 6x42's for us guys who like that sort of thing.
Post by: Taco280AI on October 30, 2014, 03:28:41 AM
If I were to change scopes it would be a VX6 2-12. Just can't bring myself to do it.
Post by: high country on October 30, 2014, 06:25:13 AM
High country. quick question about parallax. im running a 4.5-14X50 leupold vx-3 on my 300 rum and it has no parallax adjustment. im just curious how it is adjusted or dose it not need to be? like i seen was mentioned and what ive heard before that after 10x it will mess with your shot placement
Most scopes have it set at 100 yards. If you are looking at the target and the gun is not moving, but the reticle walks around as you move your head.......you are seeing parallax.
Taco, I shoot low power scopes too. I run a zeiss 2-8 with turrets and a #6 iirc it's a thick (.5moa) hair surrounded by thick posts on 3 sides.....not exactly target style, but he'll on game and good enough to make sub moa out to 1100.
Post by: b23 on October 30, 2014, 08:14:01 AM
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/what-is-parallax-1.php (http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/what-is-parallax-1.php)
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f18/parallax-vs-focus-1988/ (http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f18/parallax-vs-focus-1988/)