Post by: bobdog86 on November 10, 2014, 03:41:45 PM
(this is a family viewed site, please avoid the use of profanity)
Post by: MLBowhunting on November 10, 2014, 03:48:27 PM
Post by: Woodchuck on November 10, 2014, 03:54:12 PM
Post by: Skillet on November 10, 2014, 03:56:08 PM
Couple nice bulls, some rat bast*rd(s) is gonna pay dearly.
Call me a cynic, but I doubt it. If Bona Bunphoath only got 60 days community service and 30 days home detention, a couple of trophy bulls in the blues will probably only net these dirtbags a shortened afternoon recess.
Post by: idahohuntr on November 10, 2014, 04:05:54 PM
Post by: Bean Counter on November 10, 2014, 04:26:29 PM
You could try North Korea or China if that doesn't suit your fancy. :twocents:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on November 10, 2014, 04:51:10 PM
I always like how a couple family/friends of those who are likely to be charged get on facebook and try to defend or deflect pending charges..."you haven't heard the whole story" is a common defense. :bdid::chuckle: :chuckle: I WAS THINKING THE SAME THING ... :tup:
Post by: idahohuntr on November 10, 2014, 06:26:12 PM
Its because there's a presumption of innocence in this country.Yea...so defend your case in court...not on facebook! I can't imagine a defense lawyer supporting his clients (or their family) getting on facebook and arguing to defend themselves publicly before charges and/or a trial :chuckle: The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me!
You could try North Korea or China if that doesn't suit your fancy. :twocents:
Post by: Bean Counter on November 10, 2014, 06:41:31 PM
Post by: Spawnstar on November 10, 2014, 08:45:41 PM
Post by: 100 grain on November 10, 2014, 09:15:05 PM
Post by: nukemduke on November 10, 2014, 09:44:05 PM
Post by: huntnnw on November 10, 2014, 09:55:36 PM
Post by: zike on November 10, 2014, 10:17:31 PM
but if it was indians that did this nobody cares as its going on all over down there everyday!
It depends on if its NF or private land, the treaty rights are for unclaimed land of the United States.
Post by: huntnnw on November 10, 2014, 10:23:05 PM
Post by: csaaphill on November 10, 2014, 10:36:36 PM
they'll do their time and be out and do it again pees me off. >:(
hope I catche them though they'll be wishing the law got em.
Post by: fastdam on November 11, 2014, 04:10:36 AM
Doesnt matter the fact is its happening just miles away heads being cut off and backstraps taken
It happens here all winter as well. Anything close to the road. Two bulls is nothing compared to the unlimited haul the natives take. Im not saying its right, but it doesnt seem to be anymore wrong than what the indians do, and that is obviously, OK, because its allowed. I guess all men really were not created equal.
Post by: longrangehunter338 on November 11, 2014, 08:00:15 AM
Post by: Sumpnneedskillin on November 11, 2014, 05:13:06 PM
Post by: bobdog86 on November 11, 2014, 05:24:39 PM
but if it was indians that did this nobody cares as its going on all over down there everyday!
Not sure I'd say "no body cares" Plenty of people care, plenty of people care, just there are no ramifications for the actions.
Post by: GameHunter1959 on November 11, 2014, 06:57:27 PM
This is why hunting in this state continues to tank.
I think the hunting in WA is great. I think the WSDFW need to manage the game and not the dollars they are trying to bring in annually. Stories like this don't help, but it doesn't mean hunting in WA sucks.
If you think it sucks so bad; hunt elsewhere.
Post by: igotbigbulls on November 13, 2014, 09:18:51 AM
but if it was indians that did this nobody cares as its going on all over down there everyday!
Not quite :bash:
Post by: Firedogg on November 18, 2014, 04:27:34 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpic20.picturetrail.com%2FVOL74%2F99005%2F24500016%2F410408224.jpg&hash=c8466b809e9b2d25b760fead60f1a3f4d01cb284)
Post by: JJB11B on November 18, 2014, 04:41:17 PM
Post by: jackelope on November 18, 2014, 05:04:13 PM
.
Post by: elkoholic1 on November 18, 2014, 05:19:29 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on November 18, 2014, 05:42:14 PM
Post by: floatinghat on November 19, 2014, 06:00:06 AM
You really want to get fired up read the replies from some of the locals defending this act. This is wear the leaf eaters should get involved screaming about the freak'n waste and complete disregard for structure and law.
What I don't understand why more examples aren't made out of type people? I understand people making honest mistakes but this and very poor decisions need to be addressed.
Post by: JJB11B on November 19, 2014, 06:20:58 PM
Post by: pilebuck on November 19, 2014, 06:36:17 PM
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on November 19, 2014, 07:50:23 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on November 21, 2014, 04:33:27 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 12, 2015, 11:35:12 AM
Quote
UPDATE: ASOTIN, WA - A 39-year-old Anatone man and his 22-year-old son have been charged in connection with the alleged poaching of two trophy-class bull elk near Anatone in early November. After seeing a post on Big Country News Connection about the discovery of the elk, tips came in to the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife that claimed that Richard Kramer had allegedly gone into a Clarkston business and was "bragging about killing some bull elk," according to court documents. The tip reportedly "stated that his friend said that the man said he and his father shot a cow elk, small bull elk, a 320 class bull elk, and a 350 class bull elk."
Kramer has been charged with 2nd-Degree Unlawful Hunting of Big Game (x2), 2nd-Degree Spotlighting Big Game (x2), 1st-Degree Waste of Wildlife (x2), 1st-Degree Unlawful Transportation of Wildlife (x2), Unlawful Use of a Loaded Firearm (x2), and Unlawful Hunting on or Retrieving Hunted Wildlife From the Property of Another, while his son, Johnathan Kramer, has been charged with 2nd-Degree Unlawful Hunting of Big Game (x2), 2nd-Degree Spotlighting Big Game (x2), 1st-Degree Waste of Wildlife (x2), 1st-Degree Unlawful Transportation of Wildlife (x2), and Unlawful Hunting on or Retrieving Hunted Wildlife From the Property of Another.
WDFW Officer Matt Sabo said previously that two trophy class elk were killed within about 100 yards of each other near the intersection of Weissenfels Ridge Road and Kiesecker Road, and both had their heads removed and backstrap meat taken. One of the elk’s hindquarters were also taken with the rest of the meat left to waste. They believed the elk were killed either the night before or earlier that morning, most likely by the use of spotlights.
The 2014 Modern Firearm Elk season was open in the area at the time, but officials say to legally harvest a branched antler bull requires being drawn for a special permit which usually takes many years to draw. In addition, no hunting of elk is allowed at night.
Wildlife officials had received a second tip which stated that Richard Kramer had allegedly been at the Clarkston business discussing the killing of elk. One wildlife officer remembered his name because he had just spoken to Kramer about a week prior "because he called wanting to report that his neighbors were baiting deer with apples."
On November 8th, wildlife officers went to Kramer's property in the 45000 block of Highway 129 in Anatone. A fresh elk hide was laying in the dirt to the north of the front door area, court documents state.
"We also saw many sets of antlers and a moose head sitting on the roof of the single wide trailer. Many of these were complete heads with hide still attached," the report says, adding that there was no answer after they knocked on the door. They then went to a travel trailer that was near the single wide trailer.
"While knocking on the travel trailer door, Sgt. [Paul] Mosman could see through the large clear glass window on the door and saw at least two large sets of elk antlers and a large pile of fresh meat lying on the floor of the trailer," the report says.
A check through the WDFW WILD system showed that Kramer did not possess any Washington 2014 hunting license or tags, the report says, adding that a check through Idaho's system showed that he had purchased a Resident Idaho Elk tag for 2014 utilizing an old address in Lewiston as his place of residence.
A search warrant was obtained and wildlife officers and a deputy from the Asotin County Sheriff's Office responded back to the property. A short time later, Johnathon Kramer arrived on scene and agreed to talk with officials.
"Johnathan told us that he and his father Richard Kramer had...ate dinner at a Mexican restaurant in Clarkston and decided to go home a different way. He stated that they drove south along the Snake River and then started driving up a ridge. He stated that once they reached the top of the hill they drove a little bit further and that is when they spotted a large bull elk in a field. Johnathan stated that his father was driving and he pulled over and shot the elk from the driver's seat with a black rifle that had a stainless steel barrel. Johnathan said that his dad shot the elk just before dark and then went over to the elk and removed the head, backstrap meat, and hind quarters," the report states. Kramer also reportedly told officials that they had shot "only one" elk.
During that interview, another vehicle arrived and the driver was identified as Richard Kramer. He was also interviewed and allegedly told wildlife officers that he had "spotted the elk in the headlights from his vehicle and shot the two bull elk on a spur of the moment while his son held a spotlight for him," the report says. He reportedly told officials that he shot one from the driver's seat and the other while leaning over the door pillar.
After shooting the elk, Kramer reportedly told officials that he and his son butchered the elk and carried the heads and meat back to their truck.
"After taking the heads and some of the meat they ran out of space in the bed of the truck so they brought what they had home and planned to come back and get the rest. When they came back there was another vehicle in the area so they decided to go back home," the report states Richard Kramer as saying.
After talking with with Kramer, officials then spoke to Johnathan Kramer again and informed him of some of the information his father had provided. At this time, officials say he allegedly admitted that his father had shot two bull elk while he held the spotlight for him.
"He stated that Richard shot three times and that they then jumped out of the vehicles and got the quarters and then took the heads. Johnathan said he took the backstrap from the elk. He stated that his dad shot the elk sometime between 1830-1900 hours. He said that after they got the heads and some of the meat they brought it to the Anatone residence and both unloaded it all. Johnathan said that they did not go back for the rest of the meat and that they did not plan to," the report says.
Wildlife officers asked Johnathan Kramer about other hunting activities.
"Johnathan said that in September, Richard killed a cow elk with a rifle in Idaho and that he helped him get the cow out. He stated that Richard shot a big deer near Clarkia, ID on the 2nd day of archery season. He was asked about the moose head that was sitting on the roof of the trailer and he stated that his sister...had an Idaho moose tag 2 or 3 years ago and shot it while hunting with Richard," the report says.
"Sgt. Mosman and I walked back over to where Officer [Douglas] King was still speaking with Richard. I heard Richard say that the small carcass on the property was from a calf elk that he had hit with his truck by accident near the Anatone residence and brought it home to butcher. Richard gave a different explanation about the moose head than what Johnathan had told us. Richard said that the moose was a road kill that they found in Idaho while hunting," according to the report. A later examination of the calf did find injuries consistent with being struck by a vehicle, officials say.
Johnathan Kramer was placed under arrest for an active warrant and driving on a suspended license and transported to the Asotin County Jail at this time, the report says. He bonded out later that evening. Richard Kramer was secured in a patrol vehicle while the search warrant was executed.
Several items were collected as evidence, including two bull elk heads (7x6 and 6x6), elk meat, jerkey, and various deer, elk, and moose heads that were reportedly found on top of the residence and other parts of the property. The report says the evidence included 7x6, 6x5, 5x9, 5x7, 5x6, 5x5, 4x6, 4x5 and 4x4 whitetail deer antlers, 4x4 mule deer antlers, 4x4 elk antlers, a Stealth game camera, a Remington .270 rifle with Tasco 3x9 scope, Ruger M77 MKII .270 rifle with Swift Premier scope, and other items.
After collecting the evidence, wildlife officers followed Kramer to his daughter's apartment in Lewiston to retrieve a bolt action .270 rifle that he allegedly claimed to have used to kill the elk, the report says. Kramer also gave officials permission to search his pickup.
"We found two hand held spotlights, a digital camera, and cartridges and spent shell casings. Officer Sabo found three .270 cases," the report says, adding that no pictures were discovered on the SD card related to hunting. In addition, officials say they did not find any blood or hair in the bed of the pickup at the time. The rifle and spotlight were seized as evidence.
2nd-Degree Unlawful Hunting of Big Game, 2nd-Degree Spotlighting Big Game, 1st-Degree Waste of Wildlife, and 1st-Degree Unlawful Transportation of Wildlife are Gross Misdemeanors with maximum penalties of 364 days in jail and a fine of $5,000 each. Unlawful Use of a Loaded Firearm and Unlawful Hunting on or Retrieving Hunted Wildlife From the Property of Another are Misdemeanors with a maximum penalty of 90 days in jail and a fine of $1,000 each.
Richard and Johnathan Kramer are required to appear in Asotin County District Court on January 14th at 1:30 p.m.
Post by: vandeman17 on January 12, 2015, 11:43:20 AM
Post by: fordpowerforever on January 12, 2015, 11:53:07 AM
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on January 12, 2015, 12:21:09 PM
Post by: andersonjk4 on January 12, 2015, 12:37:48 PM
From the article:
"When he's not serving as District Court Judge, Lutes said he enjoys anything to do with hunting, fishing and the great outdoors. But his favorite hobby is falconry."
http://www.klewtv.com/news/local/Ray-Lutes-281075532.html (http://www.klewtv.com/news/local/Ray-Lutes-281075532.html)
Post by: bobcat on January 12, 2015, 12:45:08 PM
Sure seems like another slap on the wrist penalty......
They haven't yet had their day in court, so we don't know if it will be a "slap on the wrist" or not.
From what the potential maximum penalties could be for each charge, it appears to me that the total in fines and jail time could be substantial, not to mention the loss of the right to possess firearms and the right to hunt.
Post by: Duckhunter14 on January 12, 2015, 01:15:37 PM
Post by: bobdog86 on January 12, 2015, 07:26:45 PM
Post by: Labs07 on January 13, 2015, 09:37:57 AM
Post by: JWEBB on January 13, 2015, 10:03:15 PM
Post by: mtncook on January 15, 2015, 07:14:19 PM
ASOTIN, WA - An Anatone man and his son pled not guilty today in Asotin County District Court to multiple charges related to the alleged poaching of two trophy-class bull elk in early November near Anatone. Wildlife officials say the elk were killed within about 100 yards of each other and both had their heads removed and backstrap meat taken. One of the elk’s hindquarters were also taken with the rest of the meat left to waste.
39-year-old Richard Kramer has been charged with 2nd-Degree Unlawful Hunting of Big Game (x2), 2nd-Degree Spotlighting Big Game (x2), 1st-Degree Waste of Wildlife (x2), 1st-Degree Unlawful Transportation of Wildlife (x2), Unlawful Use of a Loaded Firearm (x2), and Unlawful Hunting on or Retrieving Hunted Wildlife From the Property of Another, while his son, Johnathan Kramer, has been charged with 2nd-Degree Unlawful Hunting of Big Game (x2), 2nd-Degree Spotlighting Big Game (x2), 1st-Degree Waste of Wildlife (x2), 1st-Degree Unlawful Transportation of Wildlife (x2), and Unlawful Hunting on or Retrieving Hunted Wildlife From the Property of Another.
Following a story posted on Big Country News Connection about the discovery of the elk, tips were reported to Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife officials about a man who was reportedly in a local business allegedly bragging about killing some elk. On November 8th, investigators went to Kramer's property in the 45000 block of Highway 129 in Anatone and allegedly found two bull elk heads (7x6 and 6x6), elk meat, and other items that were collected as evidence.
Post by: bobdog86 on March 20, 2015, 08:19:25 PM
https://www.facebook.com/bigcountrynewsconnection/photos/a.222726484460961.56130.209374779129465/861382380595365/?type=1&fref=nf (https://www.facebook.com/bigcountrynewsconnection/photos/a.222726484460961.56130.209374779129465/861382380595365/?type=1&fref=nf)
Pathetic really, some deterant
Post by: Tbar on March 20, 2015, 08:26:54 PM
Post by: hunting4sanity on March 20, 2015, 09:15:59 PM
Post by: JWEBB on March 20, 2015, 10:08:47 PM
Post by: JLS on March 20, 2015, 10:17:35 PM
Post by: Humptulips on March 20, 2015, 11:10:02 PM
Maybe you guys should go back and read the fine print. For Washington, those are pretty good sentences.
You may well be right and therein lies the problem. I cannot imagine how 10 days home detention is much of a deterrent for poachers and they wasted all the meat. $8000 a piece sounds like a lot but many would pay that for the chance at a big bull.
Also I once waited for a couple thousand in restitution from three criminals and it took 15 years to be paid so these guys can spread that fine out over a lot of years unless they want off probation which is only two years. :bash:l No mention of license suspension either. :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash
Post by: Firedogg on March 21, 2015, 12:17:50 AM
Post by: Curly on March 21, 2015, 03:07:49 AM
Post by: Bean Counter on March 21, 2015, 04:23:41 AM
Better strategy to not elect d-bag judges and prostitutors :twocents:
Post by: Curly on March 21, 2015, 05:03:07 AM
Post by: bobdog86 on March 21, 2015, 08:46:26 AM
Post by: bigtex on March 21, 2015, 08:54:47 AM
So they assessed the mandatory civil penalties and suspended those also :dunno: . Bigtex can you clarify? Very sad! I thought the civil penalties were a separate deal from the criminal proceeding. :dunno:The mandatory civil fine is the $12,000 which was split between the two at $6,000 each. The additional $2,000 were criminal fines which were not suspended.
This sounds terrible, but this is actually a better prosecution then what most have been getting. The trend lately in WA is to suspend ALL of the criminal penalties and simply hand down the civil penalty which is mandatory. So if that were to happen here it would be the $6,000 fine.
I am glad the post showed what the possible penalty is, and how much of that was not suspended and actually handed down. It shows that penalties for fish and wildlife penalties are stiff, they just aren't handed down.
Post by: netcoyote on March 21, 2015, 09:33:08 AM
I appreciate your frustration, Curly. Nevertheless, I feel mandatory minimums are a bad idea unless the crime is particularly heinous, such as treason, rape, murder, [voting Democrat], etc. As much as I appreciate narcotics being illegal, I think those stiff mandatory sentencing guidelines are a big factor in our overcrowded prisons. At the same time I am sympathetic to the notion that the war on drugs has been successful insofar as reducing inner city crime.
Better strategy to not elect d-bag judges and prostitutors :twocents:
Could it be that the "stiff mandatory sentences" lead to the low crime rate that we have been experiencing? Overcrowded prisons are another issue but if you lock the bad guys up, they are not out continuing their criminal activity.
Post by: link on March 21, 2015, 11:49:51 AM
Post by: Bean Counter on March 21, 2015, 04:26:45 PM
I appreciate your frustration, Curly. Nevertheless, I feel mandatory minimums are a bad idea unless the crime is particularly heinous, such as treason, rape, murder, [voting Democrat], etc. As much as I appreciate narcotics being illegal, I think those stiff mandatory sentencing guidelines are a big factor in our overcrowded prisons. At the same time I am sympathetic to the notion that the war on drugs has been successful insofar as reducing inner city crime.
Better strategy to not elect d-bag judges and prostitutors :twocents:
Could it be that the "stiff mandatory sentences" lead to the low crime rate that we have been experiencing? Overcrowded prisons are another issue but if you lock the bad guys up, they are not out continuing their criminal activity.
Yes, that's why I wrote the next sentence after the one you bolded :)
To reiterate: the first priority of incarceration is to protect the public from offenders. The second priority is to punish the offender for past transgressions. Still a third yet distant priority is the rehabilitation of the offender, which should never attempt to come at the expense of the first two, which it is not mutually exclusive of. :twocents:
Post by: LeviD1 on March 22, 2015, 06:01:55 AM
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on March 22, 2015, 02:51:54 PM
Sure seems like another slap on the wrist penalty......
They haven't yet had their day in court, so we don't know if it will be a "slap on the wrist" or not.
From what the potential maximum penalties could be for each charge, it appears to me that the total in fines and jail time could be substantial, not to mention the loss of the right to possess firearms and the right to hunt.
Looks like another slap on the wrist again, and again, and again..... Seems the state is promoting poaching?
Post by: floatinghat on March 26, 2015, 10:54:24 AM
The fine for poaching say big game animals regardless of trophy class or not should be like $25,000 per animal no if ands or buts. That way I'm not paying for another idiot in prison and its more harsh to make people consider not doing it a lot more. Oh and lose all future hunting and fishing privileges.
I am not happy with the result but what occurs in this suggestion when they simply can not pay? Bigtex, how much of this is actually collected and in what timeframe, what happens if they don't/can't pay?
Post by: buglebrush on April 04, 2015, 02:19:16 PM
Looks like another example of why we need mandatory minimum penalties set so that these idiot judges and prosecutors can't let these scum off with slaps on the wrist.
In examples like this I agree, but it is always a bad idea to immediately legislate off of one instance.
I knew of two teenage boys who went elk hunting for their first time ever. Their dad's didn't hunt, so no real experience or teaching growing up. They were lucky, and dropped an elk. In their excitement they didn't properly tag the animal. It was an innocent mistake, and they certainly weren't poaching. However the Gamey threw the book at them. I for one am glad in cases like this that their judge had a choice on how heavy their fine should be. Mandatory penalties don't take into account the circumstances. :twocents:
Post by: bobdog86 on April 04, 2015, 04:46:53 PM
Agreed, pretty simple in my opinion, "does the punishment fit the crime?" in this case not sure it does….Looks like another example of why we need mandatory minimum penalties set so that these idiot judges and prosecutors can't let these scum off with slaps on the wrist.
In examples like this I agree, but it is always a bad idea to immediately legislate off of one instance.
I knew of two teenage boys who went elk hunting for their first time ever. Their dad's didn't hunt, so no real experience or teaching growing up. They were lucky, and dropped an elk. In their excitement they didn't properly tag the animal. It was an innocent mistake, and they certainly weren't poaching. However the Gamey threw the book at them. I for one am glad in cases like this that their judge had a choice on how heavy their fine should be. Mandatory penalties don't take into account the circumstances. :twocents: