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Big Game Hunting => Deer Hunting => Topic started by: bearpaw on November 16, 2014, 11:29:09 PM


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Title: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: bearpaw on November 16, 2014, 11:29:09 PM
This buck was killed in an any buck area, but when I saw the rack up close I thought it would be fun to ask if it would be legal in a 4 point or better area? I'll post the correct answer after a few days.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: bowhunterwa87 on November 16, 2014, 11:45:08 PM
Looks like 2x3.....maybe 3x3
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: RB on November 16, 2014, 11:56:30 PM
Just by definition in the regulations the (Bucks) Right side is obviously a three but the Left is really messed up. The little eye guard at the base does not look an inch long on the long side, and the broken off piece looks sketchy as well it is closer to an inch than the eye guard, but no dice he walks   :twocents:
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: csaaphill on November 16, 2014, 11:56:59 PM
3x2 to me that one horn is broke and can't tell what it would have been.
The one small one one, or eyeguard that side isn't at least an inch long so no.
Broke off tine looks as if it could of been two points at one time but not now.
so by WDFW's description is that all points or the point that is to be used to make it a 4pt 3pt 2pt whatever has to be at least an inch long.
eyeguard isnt it's only about a 1/4 inch long even counting the broke tine as one it would still only go a 3x3
3x2 to me though.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Bean Counter on November 17, 2014, 01:00:21 AM
I don't see four points on either side. That eye guard looks too small to be 1.0"+

When I hunted in New Mexico some locals told me "if you can hang a ring on it, then its a point."  :o
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Bango skank on November 17, 2014, 04:22:05 AM
For the broken chunk of main beam to count as a point it would have to not only be an inch, which it probably is, but would have to be longer than it is wide, which it most definitely is not.  not legal.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: grundy53 on November 17, 2014, 04:49:59 AM
I'm going with not legal.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Ridgerunner on November 17, 2014, 05:11:56 AM
This will be interesting.  First off I disagree with the rule of the point has to be an inch to count, the buck has an eye guard and the main beam that got broke was clearly over an additional inch long at some point. The buck should be legal under the four point rule but is he ?????
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: zwickeyman on November 17, 2014, 05:26:42 AM
If the eye guard is 1" long, then yes
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Bango skank on November 17, 2014, 05:50:39 AM
This will be interesting.  First off I disagree with the rule of the point has to be an inch to count, the buck has an eye guard and the main beam that got broke was clearly over an additional inch long at some point. The buck should be legal under the four point rule but is he ?????

You disagree with the rule that a point has to be an inch to count?  It says it very clearly in the regs, even has a little picture to go with it.  And "was" an inch is speculative and irrelevant.  It has to be an inch.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: runningboard on November 17, 2014, 06:02:48 AM
I don't see four points on either side. That eye guard looks too small to be 1.0"+

When I hunted in New Mexico some locals told me "if you can hang a ring on it, then its a point."  :o
that is how some people used to define a point, just like some people don't count eye guards cause that's what gramps said.
on topic, I'd say nope
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Ripper on November 17, 2014, 06:31:14 AM
Yes he is legal.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Band on November 17, 2014, 07:43:13 AM
The broken tip looks like it might be over 1" but the eye guard looks a little shy of 1".  No way am I taking that shot!
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: h20hunter on November 17, 2014, 07:46:48 AM
I think on the ground with tape to confirm point lenghts, yes he might be legal.

On the hoof, with only optics to judge, I think you pass on that shot because I just don't see how you could know for sure.

Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: fireweed on November 17, 2014, 07:48:34 AM
Either way too small to shoot esp in 4 pt area.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: ghosthunter on November 17, 2014, 07:55:15 AM
I voted no. :'(
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: WALLEYEGUY on November 17, 2014, 07:58:06 AM
 :bdid: Nope
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: kukusya on November 17, 2014, 08:00:08 AM
No. This is illegal deer. States has different definition about courting points on the rack. This is WA 4pt have to be on ether side or both sides. Not like some tv shows you watch when host shoot 3x4 and scream that's 7 pointer.  :'(
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: h20hunter on November 17, 2014, 08:02:31 AM
IF.....I say IF on his left the brow tine is 1 inch and the broken tine is 1 inch then he is a 3x4. Still, in the field, 4pt minimum, too close to call. Still, no shot for me.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: quadrafire on November 17, 2014, 08:04:11 AM
I think on the ground with tape to confirm point lenghts, yes he might be legal.

On the hoof, with only optics to judge, I think you pass on that shot because I just don't see how you could know for sure.
I voted no, but this is a good description of my thoughts
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: wheels on November 17, 2014, 08:07:42 AM
may have been before busting one side up but no
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: jasnt on November 17, 2014, 08:16:32 AM
For the broken chunk of main beam to count as a point it would have to not only be an inch, which it probably is, but would have to be longer than it is wide, which it most definitely is not.  not legal.

not legal
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: MtnMuley on November 17, 2014, 08:19:50 AM
I don't see any way this buck could be legal.  The eye guard clearly isn't an inch. If it were, I would say yes as the continuation of the main beam is certainly over an inch. :twocents:
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: CJ1962 on November 17, 2014, 08:26:20 AM
I would let him walk.  Too close to call.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: bobcat on November 17, 2014, 08:29:05 AM
Definitely not legal in a 4 pt minimum area.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Curly on November 17, 2014, 08:47:40 AM
Definitely not legal in a 4 pt minimum area.
:yeah:

Hard to even call that little bump an eye guard.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Mike450r on November 17, 2014, 10:41:41 AM
I voted maybe, but don't shoot. 

Definitely three legal points on each side.  It is the little nubbin of an eye guard where it turns into a maybe for me.  I believe the longer than it is wide rule is for determining a branch, not a point so the broken tine is a legal point.

I have seen them measure and that eye guard is close enough to a WDFW inch that I am going with maybe legal.  But looking through my scope I am not pulling the trigger and waiting for a measurement.

Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Rainier10 on November 17, 2014, 11:48:45 AM
I voted no because I don't think the eye guard goes and inch, it might but it is just too close to call.  My guess is that eye guard is 7/8"
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on November 17, 2014, 12:08:14 PM
I'm in the not legal camp.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: whackmaster on November 17, 2014, 12:15:42 PM
 its legal  :tup:
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: TopOfTheFoodChain on November 17, 2014, 12:48:54 PM
Nope. Rather eat tag soup than chance a violation.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: boneaddict on November 17, 2014, 01:00:14 PM
Not a chance. 
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: baldopepper on November 17, 2014, 01:06:11 PM
Passed on a whitetail similar to that this weekend-just couldn't make the eyeguard out to be an inch, but was on honest three point.  I'm gonna say not legal, but I wouldn't shoot anyway and take the chance. (saw several three and four point mule deer, now that the season is closed on them in 121)
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Big game archer on November 17, 2014, 02:23:22 PM
I'm amazed that there are quite a few people who consider this to be a "certain" four point and would shoot it. There is no way that this is a legal buck  :yike: :bdid:
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: h20hunter on November 17, 2014, 02:26:35 PM
It will be interesting when Dale gives us the skinny. Legal or not? Night now 3/4 of votes say he walks away unscathed.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Stein on November 17, 2014, 02:33:18 PM
Measure the eye guard.  Then, frantically search the forest floor for the broken other point.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Curly on November 17, 2014, 02:36:11 PM
Just FYI -

Here are some definitions from the 2014 WDFW regulation pamphlet:

Antler Point-Deer: A projection off any part of the antler measuring at least one (1) inch in length measured from the longest side. Eye guards are antler points if they are at least one inch long.

Four Point Minimum Buck: Any buck deer with at least four antler points on one antler is legal.

Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Curly on November 17, 2014, 02:42:10 PM
After further thought..........

I suspect Bearpaw will come on here and say the buck is a 4-point.  I suspect that the eye-guard could be 1-inch long if it is measured from the longest side (the side closest to the skull) then it could be said that if measured from where the point originates on the main beam, it may be 1-inch to the tip.  If it is, it probably is just barely or exactly 1-inch.

But, with that said........no way would I shoot that buck thinking it was a legal buck.  You would never know it is legal without killing it first and laying a tape on it (and even then, I suspect some creative measuring is required). :twocents:

Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: cryder on November 17, 2014, 04:55:23 PM
H , E , DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS NO !!Not on my property,even in the bush or from 300 yards,thers no 4 points anywhere,hopefully that's from down south or change your email address !! :bdid:looks to be a southerner lets eat !!!
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: blacktailer on November 17, 2014, 08:14:51 PM
I think he's legal.  I think the browtine is gonna be right at an inch where it originates off the mainbeam.  It doesn't take much  when measured from its point of origin off the main beam.  The mainbeam is easy an inch long at the break.  That being said, I would have let him walk 'cause it's not worth the risk or intrpretation of the origin of a point from one Gamie to another.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: bobdog86 on November 17, 2014, 08:23:30 PM
Some said yes, some said no, some said maybe…….on the the hoof, possibly moving, different light conditions, that'd be a no-go for me. Not sure how anyone would chance it. The Law would certainly have the tape out, why leave it up to them. If your looking for a quarter inch in the field, probably asking for trouble.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: duckmen1 on November 17, 2014, 08:24:48 PM
I would pass. To close for me to shoot.  I think one questionable point is a big gamble. Yet alone two questionable points.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: trophyhunt on November 17, 2014, 08:38:00 PM
This will be interesting.  First off I disagree with the rule of the point has to be an inch to count, the buck has an eye guard and the main beam that got broke was clearly over an additional inch long at some point. The buck should be legal under the four point rule but is he ?????
I also think he is legal, that broken point will have a measurement for scoring. It looks like a 4x3 to me. I personally wouldn't shoot it, but if I had to bet on it I'm going with legal.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Seahawk12 on November 17, 2014, 08:42:09 PM
I say it is a legal deer. That is to answer the question asked.
I wouldn't shoot it, because in the field, at the critical moment, I would have a doubt. That is to answer the unasked question.
Nice looking boy though.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Ridgerunner on November 17, 2014, 08:42:25 PM
The fact that a point must be an inch long is the dumbest rule in the book IMO.  I like the rule of Oregon I think where if you hang a ring off of it that's enough.  I'd definately pass this one, as I hunt for something bigger generally but I'm looking forward to the answer.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: splitshot on November 17, 2014, 08:53:40 PM
+
I don't hunt 4 pt areas, but have a b & c measurer look at it for the finale.  it is legal but I would not shoot it, cuz I  like money to stay in my pocket.   mike w
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Jamieb on November 17, 2014, 08:56:37 PM
not legal
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on November 17, 2014, 09:38:51 PM
Legal with my sons tag...

Huckleberry quality buck tag is any white tail buck, in a 4 point or better unit. So circumstances dictate what is legal and what is not.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: bearpaw on November 19, 2014, 12:14:36 PM
The eye guard was only 3/4 of an inch, the buck would not be legal in a 4 pt area under the 4 pt rules. I would never have taken a chance at shooting that buck if it would have been in a 4 pt area.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: jackmaster on November 19, 2014, 12:16:35 PM
looks like a 3x3 with a legal one inch eye guard :dunno:
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: CoryTDF on November 19, 2014, 12:21:38 PM
For the broken chunk of main beam to count as a point it would have to not only be an inch, which it probably is, but would have to be longer than it is wide, which it most definitely is not.  not legal.

Are you talking about a scoreable point or a legal point? The regulations say nothing about that????? I understand this is true for a scoreable point but to me that is a legal point. I would likely pass on this buck but it looks like it is legal to me. Just barley but I think it makes it. I would need better angles and lots of time to make the decision to shoot though.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: whackmaster on November 19, 2014, 12:21:59 PM
get out the silver bracelets im  in trouble  :yike:
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Mike450r on November 19, 2014, 12:35:23 PM
For the broken chunk of main beam to count as a point it would have to not only be an inch, which it probably is, but would have to be longer than it is wide, which it most definitely is not.  not legal.

Are you talking about a scoreable point or a legal point? The regulations say nothing about that????? I understand this is true for a scoreable point but to me that is a legal point. I would likely pass on this buck but it looks like it is legal to me. Just barley but I think it makes it. I would need better angles and lots of time to make the decision to shoot though.

I would have to look at the definition to be 100% but I think the "longer than it is wide" has to do with the definition of a branch, not a point.   For instance in a 3 pt elk GMU the branch has to be above the ears and for the branch above the ears to be a legal branch by definition it must be longer than it is wide. 
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Rainier10 on November 19, 2014, 12:47:27 PM
I am dying for Dale to post what the real answer is and if it would be legal or not.  Should be interesting for sure and what the justification is behind it either way.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: CoryTDF on November 19, 2014, 12:49:36 PM
For the broken chunk of main beam to count as a point it would have to not only be an inch, which it probably is, but would have to be longer than it is wide, which it most definitely is not.  not legal.

Are you talking about a scoreable point or a legal point? The regulations say nothing about that????? I understand this is true for a scoreable point but to me that is a legal point. I would likely pass on this buck but it looks like it is legal to me. Just barley but I think it makes it. I would need better angles and lots of time to make the decision to shoot though.

I would have to look at the definition to be 100% but I think the "longer than it is wide" has to do with the definition of a branch, not a point.   For instance in a 3 pt elk GMU the branch has to be above the ears and for the branch above the ears to be a legal branch by definition it must be longer than it is wide.

All I see in the regs is 1'' from it's longest side. That said from most WDFW guys I know as long as its really close they usually would let it slide unless there were other circumstances that might make them be picky. like I said I don’t think i would have shot this buck as I’m not one to gamble. Most game wardens that I have encountered are not going to hammer you on something like this unless you have given them reason to. Not to say they should let people break the clearly posted laws but there is a bit of discretion that is in the wardens hands. I would be pretty shocked if a warden was to say ticket a kid that was to have harvested this buck in a 4pt area. Anybody can look at this buck and see that it is so close that at least an attempt to be within the regulations was made. Sometimes ¼ of an inch is not worth ruining a kids day and possibly attitude about hunting. Now if it was my kid/wife/grandpa/ friend I would have strongly suggested that that person not shoot this buck. I do however believe in being accountable for your actions so if a ticket was to be issued in the eyes of the law it would be justified. Sometimes, however, the greater good can be served with just a little bit of lenancy.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Curly on November 19, 2014, 12:51:39 PM
I am dying for Dale to post what the real answer is and if it would be legal or not.  Should be interesting for sure and what the justification is behind it either way.

Check out Reply #48.  ;)
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: bearpaw on November 19, 2014, 01:06:57 PM
The eye guard was only 3/4 of an inch, the buck would not be legal in a 4 pt area under the 4 pt rules. I would never have taken a chance at shooting that buck if it would have been in a 4 pt area.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: csaaphill on November 19, 2014, 02:49:19 PM
The eye guard was only 3/4 of an inch, the buck would not be legal in a 4 pt area under the 4 pt rules. I would never have taken a chance at shooting that buck if it would have been in a 4 pt area.
:yeah:
knew that was the case
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: blacktailer on November 19, 2014, 03:02:17 PM
It is a good thread..   I thought the point could have easily been an inch but would have never pulled the trigger.  You can speak with a lot of official measurers and most would tell you that there can often be discrepancy as to where the origin of a point is and could go  1/4" either way.  It's not a perfect cut and dry world we live in, but I wouldn't want to be standing with the warden knowing a big ticket may be coming due to his interpretation of the origin of a point.  When in doubt, it is better safe to let it walk...
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: fishnfur on November 19, 2014, 10:22:24 PM
So Bearpaw, is there a definitive answer for your poll?  I begin to doubt that there is.  Without having the deer on the ground, it is all conjecture.  My take on that buck is that it was probably a 4 point with a small eyeguard that may or may not have been an inch long.  The broken section of the left antler certainly looks like it was tending towards a split that likely was two separate points.  Since those points are no longer there, they no longer count more that just a single point would.

We have lots of opinions and it is apparent that while most agree that this is not a legal 4 point, there can be no judging it without measuring the eyeguard point.   Everyone keeps talking about that phantom Fish and Game Officer out there patrolling the hunting grounds ready to write a ticket for breaking the rules, but that is a once a season event down in SW WA, and that only happens during Modern Elk.  Those officers seem more intent on checking for Discover Passes on the road than going out in the field to see what is really going on.  Makes you wonder what all that money you paid for when you bought your hunting license actually goes to.  Certainly not improving the hunting in Western WA.  I am aware that there are really no 4 point restricted areas west of the Cascades, but there are GMUs with similar type restrictions, but requiring fewer points.

I believe it is very worthwhile that people strongly consider their decisions before they dust that buck standing before them.   Sadly, I believe that many hunters are not that worried about "the rules" and interpret them to whatever level their personal values suggest at that moment.   I'd love to hear Bearpaws interpretation for this buck.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Bango skank on November 19, 2014, 10:25:55 PM
For the broken chunk of main beam to count as a point it would have to not only be an inch, which it probably is, but would have to be longer than it is wide, which it most definitely is not.  not legal.

Are you talking about a scoreable point or a legal point? The regulations say nothing about that????? I understand this is true for a scoreable point but to me that is a legal point. I would likely pass on this buck but it looks like it is legal to me. Just barley but I think it makes it. I would need better angles and lots of time to make the decision to shoot though.

You are right, I was wrong.  I guess i got my "scoreable" and "legal" definitions blended there a bit.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: steeleywhopper on November 19, 2014, 10:31:48 PM
How is that busted main beam considered a point, that thing looks nowhere to be an inch long? I guess some guys inch is a little different than mine..
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: bearpaw on November 20, 2014, 12:50:30 AM
So Bearpaw, is there a definitive answer for your poll?  I begin to doubt that there is.  Without having the deer on the ground, it is all conjecture.  My take on that buck is that it was probably a 4 point with a small eyeguard that may or may not have been an inch long.  The broken section of the left antler certainly looks like it was tending towards a split that likely was two separate points.  Since those points are no longer there, they no longer count more that just a single point would.

We have lots of opinions and it is apparent that while most agree that this is not a legal 4 point, there can be no judging it without measuring the eyeguard point.   Everyone keeps talking about that phantom Fish and Game Officer out there patrolling the hunting grounds ready to write a ticket for breaking the rules, but that is a once a season event down in SW WA, and that only happens during Modern Elk.  Those officers seem more intent on checking for Discover Passes on the road than going out in the field to see what is really going on.  Makes you wonder what all that money you paid for when you bought your hunting license actually goes to.  Certainly not improving the hunting in Western WA.  I am aware that there are really no 4 point restricted areas west of the Cascades, but there are GMUs with similar type restrictions, but requiring fewer points.

I believe it is very worthwhile that people strongly consider their decisions before they dust that buck standing before them.   Sadly, I believe that many hunters are not that worried about "the rules" and interpret them to whatever level their personal values suggest at that moment.   I'd love to hear Bearpaws interpretation for this buck.

Just my two cents.

The eye guard was only 3/4 of an inch, the buck would not be legal in a 4 pt area under the 4 pt rules. I would never have taken a chance at shooting that buck if it would have been in a 4 pt area.

We measured with a tape measure. It would not be legal in a 4 pt area due to the eye guard being 1/4" short. Just looking at the buck I would never advise anyone to shoot that buck in a 4 pt area, it is not worth risking a miscalculation. Because the eye guard is short it is irrelevant whether the main beam is a legal point or not. But if the eye guard was 1" long I think the buck would have been legal because the long side of the main beam extended about an inch.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Rainier10 on November 20, 2014, 08:50:32 AM
I am dying for Dale to post what the real answer is and if it would be legal or not.  Should be interesting for sure and what the justification is behind it either way.

Check out Reply #48.  ;)

Doh!  Thanks.  ;)
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on November 20, 2014, 09:03:43 AM
Just FYI -

Here are some definitions from the 2014 WDFW regulation pamphlet:

Antler Point-Deer: A projection off any part of the antler measuring at least one (1) inch in length measured from the longest side. Eye guards are antler points if they are at least one inch long.

Four Point Minimum Buck: Any buck deer with at least four antler points on one antler is legal.

Not sure about Washington, but in Alaska a point has to be at least 1 inch long and longer than it is wide or it's not a point. On deer, that usually isn't an issue, but with moose and caribou some times it can be.
Title: Re: Poll: Legal in 4pt area or not?
Post by: MuleDeer on November 20, 2014, 09:29:54 AM
How is that busted main beam considered a point, that thing looks nowhere to be an inch long? I guess some guys inch is a little different than mine..
The fact that the main beam is busted close to a tine is irrelevant.  You measure the main beam from the pedicle, meaning that "point", the main beam, is probably in the 14"-16" range.  Hard to tell from the picture, but it most definitely is a legal "point".  Kinda like a trick question on how you count that as a point, but you measure a point on it's longest side.  So start at the base and measure along the outside...that's the length of the main beam "point".
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