Post by: Colin on December 29, 2014, 06:08:55 PM
The stars may be aligning and a new pup may be in my future in the next 2-12 months or so. With that in mind I've been rereading all the notes I made last year on breeders and Trainers and was hoping to hear some feedback from the forum. I've done my research and have read and watched a bunch of materials:
Books:
-Retriever Training A Back To Basics Approach, R. Milner
-10 Minute Retriever, Dahl's
-The Labrador Shooting Dog, M. Gould
-The Art of Raising A New Puppy, Monks of New Skene
-Retriever Training, Tom Dokken
-Game Dog, R. Wolters
-Training Your Pointing Dog, Weaver
-Volume 1 Training with Mike Lady
DVDs:
-Duck Dog Basics, C. Akin
-Duck Dog Basics 2, C. Akin
-Fowl Dogs 1, R. Stawski
-Sound Beginnings, J. Mertens
-Training A Retriever Puppy with Bill Hillman
-Sport Dog Basic Training
I'm looking at the following breeders and would love some input before I start making contact with them. In no order...
1. Wind River Labs
2. Rattlin' Ridge Labs
3. Rocking "M" Labs
4. Long Hollow Retrievers
5. Skyhigh Retrievers
Have read lots of great things about WRL and Lee on here so that's one of my favored as well as Rattlin' Ridge and Long Hollow.
I'm looking for a field bred lab, boy or girl, black, yellow, chocolate, "pointing" or whatever. Price is important but im willing to invest whatever i need to, to get the right pup. Mostly want a strong hunter and family dog with the maximum potential for waterfowling and some upland. Maybe a few HT's down the road.
I live in North Seattle and hunt mostly in Skagit County so I'm looking for trainers within an hour or two since I'd like to make monthly if not more visits with a pro trainer starting once the pup hits that 4-5 month old stage and is getting ready for FF once the teeth come in. Here are the trainers that I've found in my area.
1. Conway Kennels, Van de Brake's
2. N.W. Performance, Pat Murphy
Appreciate your input and sorry for the long post. I've posted on this topic before but figured I should see what's been going on more recently. Going to start calling around and getting in touch with breeders and Trainers and paying them a visit before I get a pup. Feel free to PM also.
Thanks and happy holidays!
Post by: dadada on December 29, 2014, 07:20:57 PM
Great dog for the family and really gets after it in the field. I have been hunting her since 6 months old. Great people and trainers to get a dog from. They should be at the sportsmans show in puyallup next month. Pm me If you have any questions. Josh
Post by: coachcw on December 29, 2014, 07:30:47 PM
Post by: Colin on December 29, 2014, 08:09:06 PM
Post by: Gamblin Guy on December 29, 2014, 08:27:03 PM
I currently have 2 Rocking M dogs, yellow female and a black male, had to put down my first dog from them a couple years back. I have been very happy with them, great dogs and great people. Shoot me a pm if you have any questions.
Great job on the research, here's the thing I have found after 30 years of being owned by labs....all of those books and dvds are great, but I have never found "the one" program to follow, take bits and pieces from all of those things you have read and watched and use what works for you and the dog. Just my .02 for what its worth.
dadada, which breeding? My BM is about that age too....
Post by: Colin on December 29, 2014, 09:07:31 PM
Post by: weathergirl on December 29, 2014, 09:09:07 PM
Pat Murphy trains with a iron fist if that's your thing.
:yeah:
Post by: Rick on December 29, 2014, 09:38:30 PM
Post by: GurrCentral on December 29, 2014, 11:18:58 PM
Post by: Commando on December 30, 2014, 05:00:04 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 30, 2014, 08:08:01 AM
Sign up for entry express. "EE" has a very simple search function. Use it to research the record of the people whom you are considering and the dogs you are looking at. A serious breeder who talks about how great their dog is and why they breed it alot should have something to back their claims and assertions.
Secondly, you don't need to buy and read a ton of books if you're going to have your dog trained. The trainer you chose probably has techniques which will differ a bit from the books you chose. For example, no modern trainer is going to use the Robert Milner methods. He doesn't use e-collar and believes all his fat labs are superior because they are "English". (whatever that bs means)
Third, you're going to learn to work with your dog the way the trainer teaches you not the other way around. This is where most guys have a disconnect. They refuse to listen to their trainer because they saw it done on a video another way. They then go try training their dog the way the video shows and their dog is a mess. Then, they blame the trainer because their dog won't do something the Mike Lardy way. Well sh*t up a hose, the poor dog hasn't been taught how to do it.
Finally, what are your goals? Do you want a hunting dog which will take hand signals, are you looking for playing hunt test games or, are you looking to run field trials? You need to have made up your mind what you expect from your dog before you take him to a trainer or, chose a program to use for training.
Videos: Hillman and Lardy. Add 10 Minute retriever. Throw everything else away.
Breeders: Depends upon what you want. Some folks are breeding show dogs to field dogs, others breed good specimens to good specimens and have balanced performance dogs. Just beware of endorsements.
Trainers: sign up for Entry Express and give yourself a chance to read and understand pass/fail records. PM me if you want help. Its really easy and tells you a lot about people. Especially, if you check out their record on EE then, go meet with them, ask questions about their success in their venue. You hear some pretty funny stuff when you walk into a conversation knowing how many times it took a dog to pass a master test or qualify for this or that....
Good luck.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 30, 2014, 08:13:22 AM
Pat Murphy trains with a iron fist if that's your thing.
Just about every single trainer in the world does when it is required. Depends upon how much experience you have and if you understand what is being done at specific moments and why. Every dog is different and good trainers approach each one as an individual.
Post by: Colin on December 30, 2014, 11:16:53 AM
Post by: lokidog on December 30, 2014, 11:17:07 AM
I think, for what you are looking for Conway is a good bet from what I have heard from multiple people.
:twocents:
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 30, 2014, 11:24:32 AM
Thanks for the info Happy. Wow! Some much info at "EE".
Search
Search "people"
chose person and you can see a full list of the levels they've run and their pass/fail history.
I usually look at a dog I see a person run a lot. I copy the dogs' name then paste it back into search function under "dogs". Click on the dog and it will give you a full history of the dogs events entered and pass/fail.
note: pass/fail is on hunt tests. If nothing is listed the dog failed. In field trials, only placements are given. If you see the dog entered in a field trial with nothing behind it's name it basically means it didn't finish the trial or "IF" it finished it did not do well enough to deserve a placement. I dog gets a JAM or better in 30% of the trials it has entered is usually a decent dog.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 30, 2014, 11:25:55 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 30, 2014, 01:14:50 PM
Post by: Labs07 on December 30, 2014, 03:05:08 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 30, 2014, 03:23:51 PM
I have a Lab from Hightest Retrievers out of California and could not be more pleased. My dog is 7 now and came from a long line of FT champs and hunt champs. I would look really hard at the blood line on both sides before purchase. I would also visit the kennel and training facility before purchase as well. I have never had any issues with him. His eyes are great and his hips are in great shape...never a problem there. Even though Labs can be natural retrievers I had my dog force fetch trained and I will do that with any Lab I purchase from now on..... it was money well spent IMO. I have most of the books you have mentioned and all have great ideas that can be used.
Bucko from Conway Kennels is in a few pictures getting the Hightest dogs some Master passes.
Post by: Colin on December 31, 2014, 08:08:06 AM
Post by: PointNLab on January 04, 2015, 12:25:52 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 06, 2015, 07:58:36 AM
I know all the breeders you mentioned in the OP and all are good and work together to find what you want if they don't have it available. I've had three RattlinRidge dogs and love hunting and competing with them. I refer people to Lee and the Meyers also. There are good trainers in WA and OR, it all depends on where you're located, but the ones mentioned above have all had success. Your breeder will have a better idea of which pro they feel is best for their lines.
you only take credit for three?
Post by: Carl on January 06, 2015, 10:01:29 AM
Post by: Special T on January 06, 2015, 03:35:35 PM
Post by: Ruger on January 11, 2015, 08:59:29 AM
I would not focus on one kennel yet, I would figure out what timeline you are looking at and see what breedings are out there. The research the OFA website for hip, eye etc backgrounds for those dogs. Then look at lines and what titles are in those lines to get idea of POSSIBLE outcome in the field for that litter. If you can find a repeat litter that is the best case because then you can possibly see those puppies and ask questions of how they are doing now. I would not focus on price to much as the initial purchase of your dog will be the LEAST you pay throughout the dogs years.
When I got my yellow pointing lab 3.5 years ago I had about 10 questions to ask each breeder and just compared what I wanted and then did my research for lines and health. I can tell you that one well known breeder in WA refused to answer those questions so for me that is a red flag and I will not buy from you, so did the research and his health and care of his dogs is horrible. I wont post on here who it is, but if you want to know you can PM me....
MY .02
Have had labs for 15 years and have done alot of training.... If you have any questions let me know
Post by: gasman on January 11, 2015, 09:56:06 AM
I also know Cindy and Bryant at Rocken M Retreiver, they are both good people and trained me to train my dog. I learned so much from both them, I could never thank them enough. There dogs are also top notch :tup:
They are at the Sportsmens SHow in Puyall every year, so its a good place to meet them and discuss what you are looking for and expectations.
Post by: PA BEN on January 19, 2015, 04:48:21 PM
Post by: Colin on January 22, 2015, 06:04:38 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 23, 2015, 07:38:32 AM
Is there and EntryExpress for Canadian Trials and Hunt Tests???
no
Post by: Colin on February 05, 2015, 07:15:47 AM
Pretty happy with my decision even though I have to buy the new pup a plane ticket in a 6 or 7 weeks.
Ended up meeting Happy Gilmore at Bucko's also. Thanks for introducing yourself and making a guy feel welcome! Was impressed by your Chessi!!!
Thanks again to everyone for your suggestions and help! Much appreciated!
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 05, 2015, 09:27:50 AM
Whelp my pup was born last friday! I finally made a decision and ended up with BLM out of a kennel in Iowa of all places. I had looked hard at the Jazztime line on paper and went out to Conway Kennels to meet Bucko. Was able to watch a bunch of dogs work a little. Watched a gunner sail a pigeon into a water mark and a hard charger smashed into the pond to get the retrieve. Come to find out later it was a jazztime dog.
Pretty happy with my decision even though I have to buy the new pup a plane ticket in a 6 or 7 weeks.
Ended up meeting Happy Gilmore at Bucko's also. Thanks for introducing yourself and making a guy feel welcome! Was impressed by your Chessi!!!
Thanks again to everyone for your suggestions and help! Much appreciated!
you mean you watched me miss a pigeon? lol Good to meet you! Congrats on the pup
Post by: PointNLab on February 05, 2015, 06:03:03 PM
Post by: JJD on February 08, 2015, 10:03:18 AM
I am kind of a collector of training material and have many books and programs, the above mentioned program is probably the most comprehensive program I have looked over.
Trainers:
I believe one of the most important qualities in a trainer is their ability to "read" dogs.
One must keep in mind that pro trainers are paid to produce results, a good trainer can read a dogs actions and attitude and judge how much pressure a dog can handle. He/she will adjust the pressure to each dogs ability to handle it. Some dogs can take a lot of pressure and still be excited about getting into the truck to go out to train, others not so much.
Iron fist is OK IF it is used justly. I do not know the trainer about who this was mentioned, so can't say.
Any trainer I would recommend would have dogs in their care that are happy when not in training and are excited to load up to go training, If they are head and tail down down, I would not consider them. Even when working FF, my dogs run out to the garage and are excited to get started. My advantage is that I am not being paid and am not in as big a hurry for results, therefore I can error on the side of caution as to how much pressure I exert per session.
Good luck with your pup.