Post by: BCRESIDENTHUNTER on January 06, 2015, 10:12:51 AM
Our current Liberal government has recently changed its policy in regards to wildlife allocations. These changes have taken a large number of hunting opportunities from BC Residents and handed them to the guiding industry at the behest of the GOABC (guide outfitters of BC). Some of these resident draws are already once in a lifetime odds, so taking away tags may make it never-in-a-lifetime for some folks. Basically, our government has privatized wildlife and sold it to the highest bidder with no regards to the average working class citizens who pay for conservation of animals and stewardship of the land through our taxes.
The norm in North America is for 5-10% of game to be allocated to the guiding industry. The changes we are facing would put 40% of sheep/grizzly/mountain goat in the north to guides, and up to 25% of other species. These changes are NOT a result of surplus wildlife, we are actually in a downswing in game numbers at the moment. How would you feel if this was happening in your state? What if our province is setting a precedent?
I am a working guy and come from pioneer stock in Northern BC. I fear for the hunting future for my children. I have joined up with this grass roots movement to protect our heritage from a greedy provincial government and a well-funded lobby group - the GOABC.
If you are considering booking a hunt in Canada, please take the time to educate yourself. There are guides in BC that do not belong to GOABC and do not support these allocation changes. Also remember, there is amazing trophy game in Yukon, Alberta and the North West Territories.
Finally, the lawyers are following our efforts and I'm afraid they may engage us residents with litigious law suits. So here’s my disclaimer - all comments are opinion only and I make no claim to the accuracy or completeness of any facts or figures I have provided. As I said please educate yourself.
I will monitor this board, and am happy to answer any questions. If you’d like, you can also send email to: bcreshunt@gmail.com
Thank You for your time;
BC Hunter
Post by: Special T on January 06, 2015, 10:15:31 AM
Post by: h20hunter on January 06, 2015, 10:16:57 AM
Just about the weirdest first post I've seen.
Interesting but I'd say that the guides, lodges, outfitters, and associated business owners may disagree with you and your campaign.
Post by: C-Money on January 06, 2015, 10:18:03 AM
Im pretty sure the only way you can hunt big game is through an outfitter.Right, so find a non GOABC outfitter? Looks like things are tough all over.
Post by: Special T on January 06, 2015, 10:29:30 AM
I feel for the poster, however for the species he listed "sheep & mt goat" are likely just BC animals... Perhaps there are some in the NW territories in which case i think you also have ot have a guide... I know you do in AK...
Post by: Magnum_Willys on January 06, 2015, 10:29:56 AM
Post by: grundy53 on January 06, 2015, 10:32:24 AM
Post by: Woodchuck on January 06, 2015, 10:36:20 AM
Hunting Tourism is what feeds many Canadian Residents and Natives in B.C. Turning away that business will be a tough sell.Yes, but how up in arms would we be if some of our draw tags were handed over to outfitters only?
Post by: Gringo31 on January 06, 2015, 10:37:35 AM
Post by: BCRESIDENTHUNTER on January 06, 2015, 10:42:45 AM
I agree it is sort of an abrupt way to join a new forum, but we (resident hunters) are really trying to educate potential guided hunters as to our situation. You are correct Special T and C-money, non-residents need a guide or (or a permit to accompany if with a non-guide resident of BC). If you are considering a trip, perhaps look at some of the other areas mentioned or please look into non-GOABC options (there are a number of them). There are a number guides here who weren't involved in this lobbing campaign and the back room deals.
The economics are a contentious part of all this. There is no doubt that the 100,000 + resident hunters contribute far more to the economy than the outfitters, who have a handful of not-well paid guides and pocket the rest. In fact resident hunters, who buy gas, charter float planes, eat in restaurants, stay in non-outfitter hotels really keep a lot of small towns going.
Here is a HuntingBC thread on the subject: http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?113549-GOABC-vs-Resident-Hunters-economics&highlight=economics (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?113549-GOABC-vs-Resident-Hunters-economics&highlight=economics)
Cheers,
BCH
Post by: Special T on January 06, 2015, 10:47:43 AM
Post by: Curly on January 06, 2015, 10:50:35 AM
Post by: BCRESIDENTHUNTER on January 06, 2015, 10:51:14 AM
Post by: BCRESIDENTHUNTER on January 06, 2015, 10:57:23 AM
The link isn't working for me. It seems you have to be a member to read the BC forum. :dunno:
Ah that's too bad. There is waaaay too much information there to transcribe. I know a lot of guys have been using a VPN service if that helps with registration. It's a really hot issue up here right now, and tons of information is on the site.
Post by: Special T on January 06, 2015, 11:03:13 AM
Post by: jackelope on January 06, 2015, 11:03:31 AM
Eligibility and Steps to Obtaining an Accompany to Hunt Permit
Show All
•Basic Eligibility Criteria
•Steps to Obtaining a Permit to Accompany a Non-Resident Hunting
•Frequently Asked Questions
Basic Eligibility Criteria
The following criteria must be met in order to proceed with an application for an Accompany to Hunt Permit:
•Must be a BC resident, who is a Canadian citizen, or a permanent resident (landed immigrant) of Canada;
•Must be 19 years of age or older; and must have: 1.Held a BC resident hunting licence AND a big game species licence for 3 of the 5 years immediately preceding application for this permit; OR,
2.Successfully completed the BC Conservation and Outdoor Recreation Education Program, and held a BC resident hunting AND a big game species licence for 2 of the 5 years immediately preceding application for this permit;
•Must possess, or be qualified to possess, a BC resident hunting licence in good standing; and,
•Must not have applied for or been issued an Accompany to Hunt Permit during the same licence year as the application.
•A person is not eligible for a permit if another permit under section 70 (1) (a) of the Act has been issued for a different time period in the same licence year that applies to the non-resident or non-resident alien whom the person will accompany under the permit.
•A person is not eligible for a permit under section 70(1) (a) of the Act if either the applicant or the non resident or non resident alien to whom the permit would apply, has been convicted of an offence: 1.Specified under section 84 (1) (a) of the Act, within the 5 year period immediately preceding the application for a permit; or,
2.Specified under (a) section 84 (1) (b) of the Act, or (b) the Firearm Act within the 3 year period immediately preceding the application for a permit.
Applicants may accompany either or both:
•A non-resident - a person who is not a resident of British Columbia but who •is a Canadian Citizen, a permanent resident of Canada; or,
•Has his/her sole or permanent residence in Canada and has resided in Canada for the 12 month period immediately prior to the date of this application.
•A non-resident alien (a person who is neither a resident nor a non-resident) whose relationship to the applicant falls within the following categories:
Father;
Mother;
Spouse;
Brother;
Sister;
Father-in-law;
Son;
Daughter;
Mother-in-law;
Uncle;
Aunt;
Son-in-law;
Nephew;
Niece;
Daughter-in-law;
Grandson;
Granddaughter;
Brother-in-law;
Grandfather;
Grandmother;
Sister-in-law.
NOTE: “COUSIN” is NOT an accepted relationship
•Restriction of hunt area: •Applicants are restricted to hunt within ONE Region with a choice of three Management Units (M.U.s) within that Region.
Post by: baldopepper on January 06, 2015, 11:04:15 AM
Post by: Bean Counter on January 06, 2015, 11:05:00 AM
The link isn't working for me. It seems you have to be a member to read the BC forum. :dunno:
It said I had to hire a guide to read it :dunno:
Post by: lokidog on January 06, 2015, 11:05:48 AM
Post by: Bean Counter on January 06, 2015, 11:08:43 AM
Post by: huntnphool on January 06, 2015, 11:10:18 AM
Post by: Curly on January 06, 2015, 11:13:54 AM
The link isn't working for me. It seems you have to be a member to read the BC forum. :dunno:
It said I had to hire a guide go read it :dunno:
:lol4:
Post by: pd on January 06, 2015, 12:17:52 PM
Many of us who grew up in Washington state have fished in BC, and some of us were lucky enough to hunt there (in the good old days). BC is our largest neighbor, after all, and has far more hunting and fishing opportunities than either Oregon or Idaho. It is a crying shame that we (Washington state resident hunters) don't have better opportunities to hunt there.
Moreover, the worst part of this whole affair is this: The general hunting environment in BC is getting so bad that the average BC resident hunter is starting to get squeezed. I think this is the point BCHunter is trying to make. Put yourself in his shoes.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 06, 2015, 12:39:45 PM
Sounds similar to our whining GMAC members that are pushing for 25% of our permits to go to top number point holders, "special interests" at a different level.:yeah:
i had a bad experience with goabc also. Had a hunt booked with a goabc member for moose and he closed up shop. I contacted goabc to help get my refund and they basically said since the guide closed he was no longer a member and they could offer no assistance. :bash: ended up getting my money back from the outfitter after a year of trying.
I am very glad that wa doesnt have outfitter allocated tags in the draw. Or nr allocated for that matter. Its pretty rediculius thatthe app fees for quality elk and deer cost me asmuch in wa as the app fees i pay in id for nonres. Then in wa its 47 other categpries to apply for also! :bash:
Post by: Bean Counter on January 06, 2015, 01:11:42 PM
Post by: Hornseeker on January 06, 2015, 01:18:16 PM
$$$$ = Root of All Evil.... :bash:
Post by: idahohuntr on January 06, 2015, 01:46:45 PM
Sounds similar to our whining GMAC members that are pushing for 25% of our permits to go to top number point holders, "special interests" at a different level.Just to be clear...you are reffering to 2 maybe 3 GMAC members out of 18 or so folks that support that non-sense.
Post by: Skillet on January 06, 2015, 02:05:18 PM
Good Luck BC Hunter! As a few have mentioned... its very unfortunate but hunting is heading that way ALL OVER... Montana, Colorado, Utah... wherever... money is the driver... an elk...hell, not even a big trophy bull, just some elk... is worth a fortune nowadays...
$$$$ = Root of All Evil.... :bash:
Didn't Montana get away from dedicated outfitter tags just a few years ago?
Post by: h2ofowlr on January 06, 2015, 02:18:14 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 06, 2015, 02:23:03 PM
Sounds similar to our whining GMAC members that are pushing for 25% of our permits to go to top number point holders, "special interests" at a different level.Just to be clear...you are reffering to 2 maybe 3 GMAC members out of 18 or so folks that support that non-sense.
Which is why I separated them with the appropriate adjective, addressed at two of them specifically. ;)
Post by: huntnphool on January 06, 2015, 02:24:49 PM
Good Luck BC Hunter! As a few have mentioned... its very unfortunate but hunting is heading that way ALL OVER... Montana, Colorado, Utah... wherever... money is the driver... an elk...hell, not even a big trophy bull, just some elk... is worth a fortune nowadays...
$$$$ = Root of All Evil.... :bash:
Didn't Montana get away from dedicated outfitter tags just a few years ago?
They did away with outfitter guaranteed tags.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 06, 2015, 02:26:12 PM
I think they still have them. I saw something about guaranteed outfitter tags for non-res deer/elk combo tags. :dunno:Good Luck BC Hunter! As a few have mentioned... its very unfortunate but hunting is heading that way ALL OVER... Montana, Colorado, Utah... wherever... money is the driver... an elk...hell, not even a big trophy bull, just some elk... is worth a fortune nowadays...
$$$$ = Root of All Evil.... :bash:
Didn't Montana get away from dedicated outfitter tags just a few years ago?
Post by: huntnphool on January 06, 2015, 02:29:57 PM
I think they still have them. I saw something about guaranteed outfitter tags for non-res deer/elk combo tags. :dunno:Good Luck BC Hunter! As a few have mentioned... its very unfortunate but hunting is heading that way ALL OVER... Montana, Colorado, Utah... wherever... money is the driver... an elk...hell, not even a big trophy bull, just some elk... is worth a fortune nowadays...
$$$$ = Root of All Evil.... :bash:
Didn't Montana get away from dedicated outfitter tags just a few years ago?
I-161 eliminated them. ;)
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 06, 2015, 02:30:44 PM
Alright thanks. The outfitter site I saw is probably outdated.I think they still have them. I saw something about guaranteed outfitter tags for non-res deer/elk combo tags. :dunno:Good Luck BC Hunter! As a few have mentioned... its very unfortunate but hunting is heading that way ALL OVER... Montana, Colorado, Utah... wherever... money is the driver... an elk...hell, not even a big trophy bull, just some elk... is worth a fortune nowadays...
$$$$ = Root of All Evil.... :bash:
Didn't Montana get away from dedicated outfitter tags just a few years ago?
I-161 eliminated them. ;)
Post by: Bean Counter on January 06, 2015, 02:32:21 PM
How would you feel if this was happening in your state? What if our province is setting a precedent?
I hunted in the state of Wyoming last year for the first time. In that state, the outfitters got together and successfully pushed the state to ban non resident hunters from accessing wilderness areas without paying a guide. While I don't live in that state, I do pay federal income taxes (yes, I actually have a federal tax liability each year) which pays for the national forests where the wildernesses are found. So I will never hunt with a guide in Wyoming. Even if they aren't a wilderness outfitter. As far as I'm concerned, they're all worthy of a boycott until that law is repealed. :twocents:
Post by: JJB11B on January 06, 2015, 03:01:42 PM
Post by: daddysprad on January 06, 2015, 03:15:55 PM
Post by: mkcj on January 06, 2015, 03:19:15 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on January 06, 2015, 03:35:40 PM
If you agree with the argument that non resident money is a valuable asset used for management and states/provinces should make all the money they can off of game animals, take that argument to it's logical conclusion. You will end up with states/provinces deciding that all tags and licenses should be sold to non residents and be guided because the State makes the most money that way. Game animals are to be managed for the good of the residents, not to make money for the government. And they definitely shouldn't be managed just to support a big bureaucracy.
Post by: Special T on January 06, 2015, 03:39:05 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 06, 2015, 03:57:55 PM
I've read post's on other boards about this and one of the biggest complaints is that a lot if not most of the guides are not even residents of BC.
Which was one of the main factors in Montana's decision as well.
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 06, 2015, 07:03:19 PM
Good luck with your campaign. I can imagine the uproar here if even 10% of the OIL tags were allocated to outfitters only. Unfortunately, as we are all well aware, being in the right doesn't mean much when the other side has a lot of money to push their agenda.
I think we are the only state that doesn't do a Out of State quota on tags. Doesn't Idaho alot 10% to non-residents.
I know that in 2011 a person from North Carolina drew a OIL Moose tag and some folks were upset that he drew even though it cost him 10x the money.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on January 06, 2015, 07:20:58 PM
It definitely is not a good trend. Even the Skagit elk, everyone that can upriver is trying to get depredation tags and sell them. They can get $500 easy for a cow tag. You have enough guys that want to shoot them that are will to pay for it. Here in the not to distant future you won't see elk south of HWY 20 at the rate they are going.Not to up end this thread or change the subject but at this time there are more elk than they can deal with on both sides of the river ..Just talked with some people the other day about this subject ..The problem they have now is that most of the Nutsack tags are not getting filled on the nutsack side of the road but are mostly being filled on the valley floor :dunno: I know of 3 tag holders this year who went home with nothing ..not as easy as everyone thinks ..plus it is hard for the out of towners to even get permission to hunt private land ..they have a lot of figuring to do :DOH: 21 branched antler bulls in one field and it is now January ...all on private property ...no elk around here :yike:
Post by: pd on January 06, 2015, 07:33:16 PM
Residents should always have first priority. They are the ones with skin in the game when it comes to decisions regarding management. They pay the local taxes. They built the roads. They settled the area. They have the tradition of hunting locally. They suffer when local areas are closed where a well heeled non resident can just move on to another area. They put up with animals in their gardens and crops. Their cars are the ones damaged by collisions with animals. They are they are the ones who sacrifice so the animals can be there in the first place. They should always be the first in line to have access for hunting. Non residents should only be allowed when it doesn't interfere with a resident's opportunity to hunt.
If you agree with the argument that non resident money is a valuable asset used for management and states/provinces should make all the money they can off of game animals, take that argument to it's logical conclusion. You will end up with states/provinces deciding that all tags and licenses should be sold to non residents and be guided because the State makes the most money that way. Game animals are to be managed for the good of the residents, not to make money for the government. And they definitely shouldn't be managed just to support a big bureaucracy.
In general, I agree with you, Sitka. In a "hunting neutral" state like Washington or Oregon, that would be a valid argument. However, based upon my limited understanding (from my hunting friends in Vancouver, BC), the province of British Columbia has gone from "hunting neutral" to "anti-hunting." I think the point of this post is bigger than just OIL tags for outfitters--BC hunting opportunities for residents seem to be getting worse. Don't even start talking about firearms restrictions.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 06, 2015, 07:59:53 PM
idaho allows up to 10% of tags to go to nonresidents. They dont specifically set 10% aside, but limit nonres to 10%. Different...Good luck with your campaign. I can imagine the uproar here if even 10% of the OIL tags were allocated to outfitters only. Unfortunately, as we are all well aware, being in the right doesn't mean much when the other side has a lot of money to push their agenda.
I think we are the only state that doesn't do a Out of State quota on tags. Doesn't Idaho alot 10% to non-residents.
I know that in 2011 a person from North Carolina drew a OIL Moose tag and some folks were upset that he drew even though it cost him 10x the money.
Post by: BCRESIDENTHUNTER on January 07, 2015, 09:42:17 AM
-A couple years ago the province allowed outfitters to be owned by non-BC residents (as they had to be prior), and in fact they could then be owned by international businesses, and I have heard that a number of them are owned by US companies (I haven't seen the actual numbers on this). There are quite a few of these outfitters listed for sale, and the sale price appears to me to be heavily impacted by the quota that each Outfitter has, rather than the success rate. A few people on the Hunting BC forum have speculated that this might be behind the big push for an immediate quota increase - guys are looking to do anything they can to bump up the sale price of their business.
On hunting sentiment here in BC:
-it's a really interesting time for hunting here. There is actually a huge uptake in our sport with 20, 30 and 40 year old urban (hipsters?) people looking for an ethical source for meat. Resident hunting has increased substantially over the last 10 years. At the same time, there is really a lot of push against the grizzly hunt in particular. There has been a ton of grizzly/human conflicts across the province in the last few years, and I feel this is related to a multi-generational complacency with humans.
Post by: birddogdad on January 07, 2015, 10:28:16 AM
resident / non resident really is never going away. this theme is no different than any major high roller who can afford to, traveling the lower 48 drawing tags and shooting OIL game in several states, on several TV shows. The system allows paying to play and until that is restricted, its only going to get worse my border friend.....
Post by: Special T on January 07, 2015, 04:49:26 PM
Post by: WAcoueshunter on January 09, 2015, 02:30:49 PM
Think of it this way - you can go on a moose hunt right across the border in the Selkirk and Monashee mountains. If there are suddenly 4x as many moose tags available to NRs, what is that going to do from a supply and demand perspective?
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on January 09, 2015, 05:18:17 PM
I feel for the residents, but it would be hypocritical for us to root against something that makes it easier and less expensive for us to go hunting in BC.
Why would that be? I have no desire to hunt anywhere if it takes away from the opportunity of the locals to hunt.
Post by: kentrek on January 09, 2015, 05:23:45 PM
I bet people would sing a different tune and the op would be chuckling some joke about karma
Post by: WAcoueshunter on January 09, 2015, 07:12:23 PM
I feel for the residents, but it would be hypocritical for us to root against something that makes it easier and less expensive for us to go hunting in BC.
Why would that be? I have no desire to hunt anywhere if it takes away from the opportunity of the locals to hunt.
Non resident caps add to the opportunities for residents because NRs are allowed fewer of the available tags. Taking away or liberalizing the NR cap has the opposite effect - more tags available for NRs, fewer for residents.
Post by: montana44mag on January 09, 2015, 07:24:14 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on January 09, 2015, 09:11:09 PM
I feel for the residents, but it would be hypocritical for us to root against something that makes it easier and less expensive for us to go hunting in BC.
Why would that be? I have no desire to hunt anywhere if it takes away from the opportunity of the locals to hunt.
Non resident caps add to the opportunities for residents because NRs are allowed fewer of the available tags. Taking away or liberalizing the NR cap has the opposite effect - more tags available for NRs, fewer for residents.
No, why would it be hypocritical to root against it? Just because it might give me better opportunity doesn't make it right.
Post by: pd on January 09, 2015, 09:19:43 PM
Isnt this how most of the "commonwealth" is? This is what happens to slaves and disarmed people who give up their arms willingly. You folks need to water your liberty tree, and get that monarchious hag off your money. :mgun2:
>:(
Whoa there, Cowboy. Consider the sharpness of those words you throw at your own neighbor. I understand your displeasure regarding trends in Canada's gun control laws, but leave the their head of state out of the discussion, please. To be a republic or not is their sovereign decision. For what it is worth, the Crown has no ties to crown lands anymore.
Post by: WAcoueshunter on January 09, 2015, 09:39:34 PM
No, why would it be hypocritical to root against it? Just because it might give me better opportunity doesn't make it right.
Certainly there are lots of things that would give us better opportunity, but that doesn't make them right. I'm saying in this case, it would be hypocritical for those of us (me included) that complain about NR caps to not cheer when it goes the other way.
Some don't mind NR caps and/or don't hunt those States that have them. I do, and do. It bugs me that the only way I can ever hunt the Strip (federal land) is to (i) pay $250K for the AZ governor's tag, or (ii) move to Arizona. In New Mexico (also largely federal land), it bugs me that they stick it to the DIY non resident in favor of residents and guided hunters. For that reason, I can't complain about a place making it more friendly for NRs.
Post by: montana44mag on January 09, 2015, 11:00:30 PM
I think its alot more complicated than that mainstream talk point. Also it appears in their constitution, she can overturn anything she wants but rarely does. :dunno:Isnt this how most of the "commonwealth" is? This is what happens to slaves and disarmed people who give up their arms willingly. You folks need to water your liberty tree, and get that monarchious hag off your money. :mgun2:
>:(
Whoa there, Cowboy. the Crown has no ties to crown lands anymore.
If these people wont even fight for the basic human right of fashioning and carrying weapons for self defense and defense of another, how could we expect something like hunting rights or even freedom of speech to last? :dunno: Canada is the liberal agenda "on steroids". I hope I'm wrong and some how Liberty finds a way to prevail there, as Im more suited to cold weather anyways. :rolleyes:
http://www.businessinsider.com/worlds-biggest-landowners-2011-3?op=1 (http://www.businessinsider.com/worlds-biggest-landowners-2011-3?op=1)
http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/15996/does-queen-elizabeth-ii-own-6-600-million-acres-of-land (http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/15996/does-queen-elizabeth-ii-own-6-600-million-acres-of-land)
http://www.whoownstheworld.com/about-the-book/largest-landowner (http://www.whoownstheworld.com/about-the-book/largest-landowner)
Post by: Special T on January 09, 2015, 11:04:07 PM
Post by: fair-chase on January 10, 2015, 12:52:30 AM
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking (http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking)
http://prosperity.com/#!/ranking (http://prosperity.com/#!/ranking)
Post by: Bean Counter on January 10, 2015, 03:09:17 AM
There isnt freedom of speech in BC. At least not it the way We think about it here in the USA. A radio Program is censored in BC that is broadcast many places here... Not to mention that you can be liable for saying things that are anti minority. (Gay Muslim etc)
:o Gay Muslims in Canada, eh? This I have to see! 8)
Post by: jackelope on January 10, 2015, 08:37:59 AM
Post by: floatinghat on January 16, 2015, 06:55:55 PM
It's all about generating revenue, lots of Euro business men are coming to fish and I suspect hunt. My suggestion is control your gov't with your vote.