Post by: duck1187 on January 22, 2015, 09:08:20 PM
Post by: lokidog on January 22, 2015, 10:14:54 PM
Post by: jetjockey on January 23, 2015, 04:02:12 AM
Post by: AspenBud on January 23, 2015, 06:54:35 AM
Your correct. Unfortunately the PNW is not a hot bed for pointing dogs and their activities. There's a few AKC/AF trials, but not many... While I am no fan of living here in the South, I am leaving in an hour for trials in a town that proclaims to be the "Bird dog Capital of the World". If I drive 2 hours in the opposite direction I'll be in a town that proclaims to be the "Field Trial" capital of the world, and the bird dog Hall of Fame is a 5 hr drive. They could burn the South down for all I care, but the bird dog history and culture down here is pretty cool. I wish there were more if it in the PNW:
:yeah:
When I lived in Michigan NSTRA and Cover Dog were the big draws. BDC and some horseback trials were not uncommon either. AKC trials were the minority, particularly if you were a Pointer or setter guy(the only AKC Pointers I ever encountered there were show dogs, everything else was AF). Amateur clubs were not uncommon, groups of people training in various corners of the state (like I think there were three or four NAVHDA chapters alone that got together) were easy to find and welcoming, the Ruffed Grouse Society had an amateur trial circuit with a championship, and so on. People were familiar with pointing dogs there because they were everywhere.
There were far more hunting preserves at cheaper prices, trainers (guys with kennels of their own and championships under their belts) often cost about half of what I've seen quoted out here (probably because there was more competition for the business), and so forth.
I hated the job insecurity out there, but the extreme focus on big game here and the little interest in bird dogs and their quarry is depressing.
That said, this is duck hunting paradise compared to out there and a dog that really gets rolling is not for everyone, especially in areas of heavy cover and hilly terrain and more rain. Throw in more predator dangers and I can see how retrievers and spaniels have become the mainstays here.
Post by: jetjockey on January 23, 2015, 06:24:15 PM
The big difference I see is that back home, they use duck dogs to upland hunt, and down here, they use upland dogs to duck hunt. There's a lot of GSP's, GWP's, and even Brits that do double duty in the duck blinds. I wish the pointing dog world would gain more traction in the PNW, but I don't think it will ever happen. Hunting quail is as much of a tradition as deer hunting in The upper Midwest. Btw. For those of you who don't know, in The upper Midwest, many school districts shut down for the opening of deer season. I guess they realized it's easier to shut school down than to teach class with no students.
Post by: AspenBud on January 23, 2015, 10:31:01 PM
I've had people call me out when I said training prices for pointing dogs in the PNW are ridiculous. The sad thing is that they are.
A month of training with a good trainer in MI is about $500.00 a month. I actually talked to a couple of guys at a release site last Fall who told me they actually fly their dogs east for training, the cost of airfare and training comes out to a lot less than paying full freight out here. No lie.
Post by: jetjockey on January 24, 2015, 04:38:57 AM
Post by: AspenBud on January 24, 2015, 10:11:17 AM
Makes you wonder if more people in the PNW would get into pointing dogs and trials if the prices were not so high.
I think it's more complicated than that but cost is probably a factor, yes.
Post by: Blackjaw on January 24, 2015, 10:13:50 AM
Post by: chevyistop on January 24, 2015, 10:33:39 AM
Post by: AspenBud on January 24, 2015, 08:48:05 PM
On the Wet side of the state you can still find a bunch of AKC field trials and hunt test. If you want to travel a bit, NSTRA has a bunch of trials in Eastern Wa. Oregon, and Idaho. I judge NSTRA trials here in the north west. www.nstra.org (http://www.nstra.org) and just find the northwest region and it will list events. As far as AKC events you can look up breeder clubs for pointing breeds. I.e. GSP club of Washington etc.. Or they have a parent group that post via yahoo groups known as the Northwest Field Trial Council. Because of the Anti's and their protesters, advertising for events isn't as available but the events are still happening.
Looking at your schedule for NSTRA, it looks like you guys have fun trials on occasion. Just how serious are these, do you have to be a member to enter, and I'm assuming they are meant as a way for newer people to test the waters? When I was in MI the Ruffed Grouse Society held fun trials regularly and I think the Michigan Amateur Field Trial Association held something similar on occasion. Nothing too serious, but a place for people with a similar interest to meet up, have some friendly competition, and have a good time.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 25, 2015, 01:30:19 AM
Guys say the same crap about west coast field trial retrievers except the history says otherwise. Same spunk talk different day. Gets old
Post by: jetjockey on January 25, 2015, 05:31:16 AM
Happy, you've made it very clear many times you don't know the workings of the pointing dog world. You did it again in your above post. I don't know why you even respond to these threads, because it shows your lack of knowledge on the subject. You should just stop, and respond to the retriever threads, which you obviously know a lot about.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 25, 2015, 09:45:39 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 25, 2015, 09:48:06 AM
Post by: ribka on January 25, 2015, 02:05:00 PM
Carry on
Post by: jetjockey on January 25, 2015, 07:08:34 PM
There have been a few nobody pointer trainers and nobody has ever argued that it isn't big out here. I can't believe you keep up posting and boasting about how great it isn't here. It seems to consume your thoughts.
Here's what the real pointing dog world looks like. Maybe, with any luck, you will be able to experience it some day.
Post by: jetjockey on January 25, 2015, 07:10:27 PM
This post was about pointing dog trials in the PNW. Unfortunately, there is VERY limited opportunities to trial in th PNW. Down here, there's a breed trial, and an AF trial every weekend, and during most weeks during the season. Old boys drink coffee at the old restaurants and talk about the glory days of wild quail hunting and tell lies about the best bird dogs that ever lived. They live and breath bird dogs, and they still look down on you if the gun your carrying doesn't say Smith, Parker, or Fox on the side of it. Bird dogs are a tradition, and it's a tradition that's gone back well over a 100 years. Maybe some day Happy, you will open your eyes and try to experience it. It's pretty cool.
Post by: ribka on January 25, 2015, 07:45:21 PM
Does it make the east coast better? A lot of the good hunting land was tied up by hunting clubs on east coast. Not cheap to hunt upland or water fowl
Post by: RC3 on January 25, 2015, 07:58:08 PM
Post by: jetjockey on January 25, 2015, 08:11:01 PM
Post by: AspenBud on January 26, 2015, 06:48:46 AM
This is also the land of the retriever and spaniel however and that's a different story. I do think there are some reasons they are more popular here than pointers and that covers anything from available land, what people do for a living, money, local culture, and tradition. That greater popularity makes it easier to find like minded people to train, compete, and hunt with. imo
Post by: Blackjaw on January 26, 2015, 07:15:57 AM
Post by: AspenBud on January 26, 2015, 09:13:20 AM
I think AspenBud hit the nail on the head based on my (very limited) experiences of training spaniels at Ft. Lewis 30 or so weekends a yr you see 3-4 big retriever training groups, the 2 spaniel training groups, and rarely a couple of guys that get together to train their pointers. I have stopped and BSd with these guys a couple of times and they are a couple of hard core hunters that train together during the off-season. I am sure I haven't seen every pointer guy that trains at Ft. Lewis, but they seem to be few and far between.
Guys with pointing dogs are often mainly upland hunters. There aren't a lot of hunters in Washington and among them bird hunters represent a small subset, waterfowl hunters are a small subset, upland hunters a smaller subset, those who are involved with field trials and hunt test even smaller, and then break it down by retrievers/spaniels and pointing dogs and well... In some ways what I'm talking about should not be a surprise. I've seen a lot of guys involved with trials and hunt tests who said they basically gave up fishing and/or big game to focus on the dogs and bird hunting, it is a commitment.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 26, 2015, 11:58:17 AM
Does anyone know who sold Cherry Valley to the State and what the property was used for prior to passing ownership to WDFW?
Post by: jetjockey on January 26, 2015, 12:15:21 PM
Post by: AspenBud on January 26, 2015, 12:19:08 PM
Post by: jetjockey on January 26, 2015, 12:37:24 PM
Post by: AspenBud on January 26, 2015, 01:47:56 PM
I agree. And that's what I find sad. I wish we had those things in the PNW. I wish we had places that were groomed for wild pheasants and valley quail in order to hunt and run trials on. The state, and the people don't support it in enough numbers to make it happen though. All our state trial grounds down here have clubhouses with bathrooms, kitchens, and stalls for horses. Most have hookups for LQ trailers, and many even have showers for people without LQ's. There's no reason we couldn't have it in the PNW, but the history and culture just isn't there to support it.
Go to Gladwin in Michigan some time if you haven't already.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10366_46403-288218--,00.html (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10366_46403-288218--,00.html)
Post by: Bluemoon on January 26, 2015, 01:58:03 PM
And everyone likes facts. I went to the AKC events site to get the facts.
Currently on their books for 2015, for just Pointing breeds
Pacific NW already has schedule 14 field trials and 13 hunt tests
Georgia 8 " " 4 " "
I know there are many more yet to be scheduled here in the PNW I do not know about GA
**this does not include American Field, NSTRA, NAVHDA,Springer or Retriever events. Which there are many coming up. This was about Pointers however. So either back East or out here someone is using new math because I was always taught numbers don't lie... :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: jetjockey on January 26, 2015, 02:24:03 PM
Post by: jetjockey on January 26, 2015, 02:39:57 PM
Post by: Bluemoon on January 26, 2015, 02:45:39 PM
Sorry your not dragging me in.... :sry:
Post by: jetjockey on January 26, 2015, 02:49:56 PM
Post by: AspenBud on January 26, 2015, 02:59:38 PM
http://coverdog.blogspot.com/ (http://coverdog.blogspot.com/) <---- Scroll down
If I filter out some springer events and a whole bunch of NAVHDA and VHDF events from that list I'm down to 62..I think.
That doesn't include AF, NAVHDA, NSTRA, AKC, BDC, Ruffed Grouse Society Trials, and probably some more that I'm forgetting that are often held on private hunting preserves.
It definitely does not include retriever trials.
At the end of it I don't care. What I do know is finding training groups, trials for total amateurs, and so forth seems to be harder out here. Maybe that's a misperception on my part.
Post by: jetjockey on January 27, 2015, 04:37:19 AM
Those look like some great grounds. That's another thing I don't see in the PNW. There seems to be no desire to run on wild birds. With American Field, they try to run on wild birds, and they also push 1hr trials. The AKC trials in the PNW are almost all 30 minute trials run on throw down birds. With the numbers of quail and pheasants, and the size of the area, it's ashame they can't find wild bird grounds where you can let a dog roll for an hour or more!
Post by: AspenBud on January 27, 2015, 10:33:19 AM
Aspen
Those look like some great grounds. That's another thing I don't see in the PNW. There seems to be no desire to run on wild birds. With American Field, they try to run on wild birds, and they also push 1hr trials. The AKC trials in the PNW are almost all 30 minute trials run on throw down birds. With the numbers of quail and pheasants, and the size of the area, it's ashame they can't find wild bird grounds where you can let a dog roll for an hour or more!
That argument goes on even in the eastern states where AF is more prevalent. Dogs from both venues and dogs born from up close trial breedings from both venues are successful on wild birds when hunted on them. There are guys who think they get a better dog if it comes from a line trialed on wild fowl but honestly I think it has a lot more to do with exposure and training. Plenty of wild quail dogs have been brought north over the years and they sucked rocks on lake states grouse. That they had been run on wild birds didn't matter so much as what they had been exposed to. If you talk to bigger names from Cover Dog circles they'll even tell you they start with a healthy dose of pen raised birds before going into the woods with their dogs.
The difference maker to me, is trials that focus on retrieving as a component seem to focus less on the athleticism of the dog. As you say, a lot of AF events tend to be endurance runs and that seems to bring out dogs that can really handle day in and day out pounding the ground. But again, that rule is not hard fast since plenty of dogs from NSTRA and AKC get used for just that and to be frank, no dog in those two venues is going to rise to the level of champion if it's an inferior athlete. Dogs that break down, dogs that are tired after one brace, they don't last long.
A good dog is a good dog, period. I have a friend whose dog gets run in BDC events, a venue that a lot of purists wrinkle their nose at. That same dog just spent last fall doing some guiding down in AZ going after wild quail. Of course it is a Pointer...but I'm entitled to that bias. :chuckle:
Post by: Blackjaw on January 27, 2015, 10:43:39 AM
Post by: jetjockey on January 27, 2015, 11:00:56 AM
Post by: jetjockey on January 27, 2015, 11:08:45 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 28, 2015, 09:55:28 PM
Post by: jetjockey on January 28, 2015, 10:38:26 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 29, 2015, 10:28:28 AM
Post by: jetjockey on January 29, 2015, 02:30:20 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 29, 2015, 04:23:12 PM
Post by: wildweeds on January 29, 2015, 06:03:20 PM
The groomed forests, flat landscape and mowed pathways are much less physically demanding than running on a mountain with a terrain "factor".
Post by: jetjockey on January 29, 2015, 06:05:41 PM
You should tell the guys who run at Ames in February that the flat ground out there is isnt physically demanding. They will get a kick out of that.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 30, 2015, 08:45:51 AM
You can tell all that by looking at Google Maps? Your ignorance never ceases to amaze me Happy. I'm gonna send that to some friends though, they will get a kick out of what you posted.
You should tell the guys who run at Ames in February that the flat ground out there is isnt physically demanding. They will get a kick out of that.
its just because you are so full of yourself that I enjoy it.
Post by: AspenBud on January 30, 2015, 09:12:10 AM
There is also a reason why English Setters have continued to be competitive in northern state grouse trials and not overrun by English Pointers (not that English Pointers haven't made their presence known), it takes a different kind of dog to be effective in that game. Those leggy wide running quail dogs don't always make a good fit in the woods where you really want the equivalent of Barry Sanders running around obstacles instead of a Jerry Rice out for a long pass. If you look at a lot of AA dogs they lean more towards larger, longer legged, dogs. AA dogs might be bred into Cover Dog lines, Elhew Sinbad sure has, but they are usually not all horseback either.
The point is, what wins in the South versus the upper Midwest versus the PNW...those can well be different. Terrain and cover are all factors in that as is weather.
Post by: jetjockey on January 30, 2015, 01:00:31 PM
Post by: AspenBud on January 30, 2015, 01:27:37 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 30, 2015, 04:03:43 PM
There is no substitute for conditioning and genetics. Tekoa Mountain setters hail from Oregon and they've kept up with dogs raised and trained in the South and Southern dogs have kept up with dogs from that kennel. Where they were trained and run daily really mattered little. If hills/mountains play a role it's because of a fault in the dog or the owner didn't ensure they got the conditioning they need...or both.
Steep hills and gullies also have different scenting conditions which also carry with them a different aspect for which a dog must learn. The easiest conditions are obviously low wind, upper humidity levels with less moisture on the ground. There are some advanced search dog tracking books which have excellent chapters on scenting factors which every valid dog person should read and understand.
Post by: wildweeds on January 30, 2015, 04:27:58 PM
.
There is no substitute for conditioning and genetics. Tekoa Mountain setters hail from Oregon and they've kept up with dogs raised and trained in the South and Southern dogs have kept up with dogs from that kennel. Where they were trained and run daily really mattered little. If hills/mountains play a role it's because of a fault in the dog or the owner didn't ensure they got the conditioning they need...or both.
Post by: AspenBud on January 30, 2015, 09:35:43 PM
Tekoa Mountain Sunrise was actually from the east and south ,so was Pinekone Max Jr as well as most of the other notable dogs in Tekoas star studded line up of paper trail.There really is no set of western genetics in setters per se.I've got a tekoa dog and he ain't really anything to even bother mentioning in pet quality circles.
.There is no substitute for conditioning and genetics. Tekoa Mountain setters hail from Oregon and they've kept up with dogs raised and trained in the South and Southern dogs have kept up with dogs from that kennel. Where they were trained and run daily really mattered little. If hills/mountains play a role it's because of a fault in the dog or the owner didn't ensure they got the conditioning they need...or both.
True
Post by: jetjockey on January 31, 2015, 08:07:09 AM
If you take a dog that hasn't seen a lot of wild birds, and then put them in the middle of a wild covey of bobs, they will unravel. If you take a big running dog from out west that is used to being able to see for miles and always being in touch with its handler, and put it on the tight courses in the South where you rarely see the dog and they are forced to handle, that big running dog will quickly turn into a short running dog. But, if you take a big running dog that looks good on the tight Southern courses, and put it in the Midwest where a dog can really roll, that big running dog might not run nearly as big as you thought either. The best dogs win everywhere under all conditions.
The problem with bird dogs and trials is people seem to want to label everything. Guys say you can't hunt an All Age horseback dog, and trial dogs can't handle wild birds, or that hunting dogs cant trial. They say a dog from out West can't win in the East, and vice versa. It's all a B.S.. They are dogs, and while very few dogs will set the American Field All Age world on fire, if you expose them to different scenerios, they typically adapt pretty well. Give that kick Azz chuckar dog a little experience in the quail woods, they will become a kick azz quail dog. Give that West coast trial dog use to wide open spaces a little time running on tight courses where they have to learn how to handle, and if they are a good dog, they will gain the confidence to run big when out of sight and learn to stay to the front. Good dogs are good dogs, no matter if they just hunt, trial, or only hunt pen raised birds.
Post by: Bluemoon on January 31, 2015, 08:53:45 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 31, 2015, 08:58:04 AM
Dang it...I hate when Jet makes sense.. Very good post...
If I can do it once and a while anybody should be able to do it often
Post by: ribka on January 31, 2015, 08:29:19 PM
Have hunted really tight cover for wood cock, grouse in WI , Maine, WA and coveys of quail in MD, KS , NE MO, and down south in Georgia with various dogs. And moving out here to the PNW we have grouse in tight cover and sometimes the quail hold tight cover in large groups.
In addition wide the PNW offers varied open areas with huns, chukar and pressured and running pheasant. Throw in waterfowl too and for some rabbits. Yep comes down to the dog.
Picked up a griffon pup and in the process of making her a well-rounded socialized dog and hunting machine. Working with pigeons now, and the wild quail , huns on my property
would be very curious how he dogs in the SE would fair out here in the PNW chasing huns, and chukar
appreciate all of the insight by the more experienced trainers on here.
The best dogs can win anywhere. Doesn't matter if it's the hills in the West and North East, the sand of South Georgia, or the mud of TN. They win in the prairies and they win in the tight bean and cotton fields of the South East. But they also get introduced to all of those conditions as well, and it's why the big time pro trainers all go to the Midwest and Canada for summer camps on wild birds. It's also why they shoot over, and hunt over their dogs. You train dogs for the toughest conditions possible so they can handle all conditions well. It's why many Pros run summer camps in the prairies on wild birds, but also winter camps in the south on wild birds. And it's also why those dogs get hunted over. That way when a dog gets to a trial, it can easily handle the pressure of big wild coveys.
If you take a dog that hasn't seen a lot of wild birds, and then put them in the middle of a wild covey of bobs, they will unravel. If you take a big running dog from out west that is used to being able to see for miles and always being in touch with its handler, and put it on the tight courses in the South where you rarely see the dog and they are forced to handle, that big running dog will quickly turn into a short running dog. But, if you take a big running dog that looks good on the tight Southern courses, and put it in the Midwest where a dog can really roll, that big running dog might not run nearly as big as you thought either. The best dogs win everywhere under all conditions.
The problem with bird dogs and trials is people seem to want to label everything. Guys say you can't hunt an All Age horseback dog, and trial dogs can't handle wild birds, or that hunting dogs cant trial. They say a dog from out West can't win in the East, and vice versa. It's all a B.S.. They are dogs, and while very few dogs will set the American Field All Age world on fire, if you expose them to different scenerios, they typically adapt pretty well. Give that kick Azz chuckar dog a little experience in the quail woods, they will become a kick azz quail dog. Give that West coast trial dog use to wide open spaces a little time running on tight courses where they have to learn how to handle, and if they are a good dog, they will gain the confidence to run big when out of sight and learn to stay to the front. Good dogs are good dogs, no matter if they just hunt, trial, or only hunt pen raised birds.
Post by: jetjockey on February 01, 2015, 05:49:41 PM
http://northwoodsbirddogs.com/running-of-the-2015-continental-all-age-field-trial/ (http://northwoodsbirddogs.com/running-of-the-2015-continental-all-age-field-trial/)
Post by: AspenBud on February 03, 2015, 10:02:45 AM
The best dogs win everywhere under all conditions.
You may have been trying to say something else with that statement, but I have to disagree based on how I'm reading it. The best dogs can be successful under all conditions, but to win...that's another story. I don't know of any Southern quail dogs doing particularly well in Cover Dog (ruffed grouse) trials and I can say same of the reverse. I do know of a dog, out of Elhew Sinbad, that has run both Cover Dog and HB trials and he has done fairly well in CD and okay in HB. But realistically it is a rare dog that can do both truly successfully. The requirements athletically are different, the weather is different, the cover is different, and how the birds behave is different. A true voodoo grouse dog will have spent the time on those birds and in the environment to do well on them by the rules of the competition they play in. Same with quail dogs down South.
If you're running a quail dog in grouse trials or a grouse dog in AA quail trials and are successful...that's a statement. I'm not talking about breeding there, I'm talking about what the dogs have been trained to do.
Post by: AspenBud on February 03, 2015, 10:42:39 AM
Post by: jetjockey on February 03, 2015, 11:24:26 AM
Post by: AspenBud on February 03, 2015, 11:46:01 AM
I meant in the peticular venue the dogs run, and was refering more to HB dogs. The top dogs can win in the prairies on pheassnts, sharptail, or chickens, the tighter cover of the South, and the rolling hills of PA and Ohio. Put them out West, and they'd win there as well. Cover dog is a totally different ball game.
Gotcha
Post by: Don Fischer on February 04, 2015, 12:39:08 PM
Im lookin around and it doesnt look like theres much of any pointer tests ,trials,nastra ,national bird dog challenge events in western washington any more. Am i missing something ?
Those dog's in the avatar look like retriever's? If so, I don't know where you could enter them in a trial or test. From about April until the end of may there are normally pointing dog trials going on somewhere every week end in Ore. Check with the North West Field Trial council. If you are thinking of running retriever's in them, I doubt they will let you. Last year during the summer there were a number of pointing dog test's on Sauvies Island and at Scatter Creek. Sept to the end of October there will be some trials, not a whole lot. Last two plus years a STR club held a trial on the Buckhorn Ranch near Condon. The Region 10 trials were there last two years and there's trials up at Sunnyside each spring and fall. Unfortunately they are predominately horse back trials and if you have your own horse, it get's pretty expensive. On the other hand, the Ore Britt Club has had a few waling trials each year at Boyce Corrals near Madras and on Sauvies Island. Years ago when I was doing it, I asked why the trials ended in Oct. I was told bird season was here and they couldn't get enough entry's to pay for the trial.
Post by: constructeur on March 25, 2015, 09:58:26 AM
Makes you wonder if more people in the PNW would get into pointing dogs and trials if the prices were not so high.
I think it's more complicated than that but cost is probably a factor, yes.
Access to property, the daily commute/grind for most, costs of the whole 'experience', etc., and a lack of interest in the sporting breeds from the general public, a large portion of the public that think hunting is cruel (even sporting dog owners); where I live it's more likely that I'll see a GSP or Visla as a running mate to some foxy yoga gal as opposed to a hunter/dog trainer/trailer.
; My personal story is that at the end of the day I'm just a boot hunter that's in to versatiles. With a family, the last thing I'm going to do is drive all over Oregon or Idaho for NSTRA because it's expensive and I'm not into doggy hunting races. I'll do that to shoot birds, but not for trials.
a little story about the declining of public interest in hunting both here and in Europe: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.ca/2015/03/here-and-there-part-one.html (http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.ca/2015/03/here-and-there-part-one.html)
A link to the referenced article on the lack of interest in AKC, and it's possible future demise: http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.ca/2014/02/the-akc-announces-demise-of-organization.html (http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.ca/2014/02/the-akc-announces-demise-of-organization.html)
I see a number of breed clubs waning as well.
I recently was looking at some old station wagons and saw that many 50's models had the option of a gun sleeve that clipped behind the seat. The days of factory options like that are gone.
Shooting wild pheasants or ducks in the suburbs of Seattle. Gone.
Finding training property in the metro area without paying a heap, or belonging to a group that has a connection. mostly Gone.
The economic activity that has brought most of us a comfortable life has swept away a pastime many of us enjoy.
For me, from here on out, it's about connecting with folks (NAVHDA, VHDF, AKC hunt Tests), and focusing on what I feel is good dog work, and helping people new to versatiles sort out what 'step next' is in their training. Bracing/backing, steady to wing, shot, fall, blind retrieves, not breaking...all that stuff that most folks don't seem to care about (from what I've seen in the field). The long drives and gas $$$ are saved for the actual hunting season that way.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 25, 2015, 12:19:07 PM
Meadowbrook has all sorts of room. Cherry Valley, Ebey Island, Stillwater, Skagit, Fort Lewis(HUUUGEE areas) Scattercreek and even more down south and further North.
Its a big commitment to train dogs to a level of any standard. It isn't for everyone. Money, space and time doesn't equate into the reality of the reasons why you "can't" do it or are not "interested".
It doesn't cost a lot of money. Plenty of folks have proven it can be done for free. What it does take is a commitment of time and energy. Not to mention, help developing the skill.
Post by: jetjockey on March 25, 2015, 12:56:46 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 25, 2015, 01:06:41 PM
just like training dogs. People who don't want to put in a little effort aren't going to be rewarded. :chuckle:
i have two guys within ten minutes who raise chukar and pheasant. Drive 1.2 hours for all the pheasant I could use. Drive 3 hours for a big pheasant and chukar guy. Drive 5-6 hours for two more options on ducks, pheasant and chukar.
Post by: jetjockey on March 25, 2015, 01:12:06 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 25, 2015, 02:51:37 PM
Do the game birds have to be banded?
I don't think so. Ducks have their toe clipped off.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 25, 2015, 02:54:56 PM
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=232-12-027 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=232-12-027)
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 25, 2015, 02:59:46 PM
game birds just need a receipt per this WAC
Post by: addicted2hunting on March 25, 2015, 06:17:00 PM
not any that I've seen. I keep about 10-20 ducks, banty chickens and 10-30 pigeons at all times. couple of pheasant to round it out. pigeon suppliers are well protected secrets. not really any restrictions on using farm raised birds. youre supposed to have your game farm receipt from who raised the birds (if game birds) but, I've never been asked for one at a trial, test or training on public land.
just like training dogs. People who don't want to put in a little effort aren't going to be rewarded. :chuckle:
i have two guys within ten minutes who raise chukar and pheasant. Drive 1.2 hours for all the pheasant I could use. Drive 3 hours for a big pheasant and chukar guy. Drive 5-6 hours for two more options on ducks, pheasant and chukar.
well....hook a brother up! I could use about 20 chukar right now... pigeons in the NW are a pretty easy commodity...
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 26, 2015, 07:21:11 AM
not any that I've seen. I keep about 10-20 ducks, banty chickens and 10-30 pigeons at all times. couple of pheasant to round it out. pigeon suppliers are well protected secrets. not really any restrictions on using farm raised birds. youre supposed to have your game farm receipt from who raised the birds (if game birds) but, I've never been asked for one at a trial, test or training on public land.
just like training dogs. People who don't want to put in a little effort aren't going to be rewarded. :chuckle:
i have two guys within ten minutes who raise chukar and pheasant. Drive 1.2 hours for all the pheasant I could use. Drive 3 hours for a big pheasant and chukar guy. Drive 5-6 hours for two more options on ducks, pheasant and chukar.
well....hook a brother up! I could use about 20 chukar right now... pigeons in the NW are a pretty easy commodity...
Right now you probably need to drive to Pendleton for Chukar
Post by: addicted2hunting on March 26, 2015, 04:33:33 PM
oh ok. shoot me a PM with some contact info. I am getting 10 from a guy in this state in a couple weeks but its a last minute available amount left.not any that I've seen. I keep about 10-20 ducks, banty chickens and 10-30 pigeons at all times. couple of pheasant to round it out. pigeon suppliers are well protected secrets. not really any restrictions on using farm raised birds. youre supposed to have your game farm receipt from who raised the birds (if game birds) but, I've never been asked for one at a trial, test or training on public land.
just like training dogs. People who don't want to put in a little effort aren't going to be rewarded. :chuckle:
i have two guys within ten minutes who raise chukar and pheasant. Drive 1.2 hours for all the pheasant I could use. Drive 3 hours for a big pheasant and chukar guy. Drive 5-6 hours for two more options on ducks, pheasant and chukar.
well....hook a brother up! I could use about 20 chukar right now... pigeons in the NW are a pretty easy commodity...
Right now you probably need to drive to Pendleton for Chukar
Post by: constructeur on March 26, 2015, 05:02:09 PM
There are plenty of free places to train. There are a lot of options for local events to give yourself a comparison against which you evaluate your own training abilities and areas where you may be weak and need to improve.
My point about 'yesteryear' is that folks used to be able to live downtown, and still hunt/train/shoot 15-20 minutes from their house. Shooting ordinances have been expanded to rural areas in some regions...
All of the places you listed are 30+ minutes from my door, I'm looking at nearly an hour of window time to get somewhere I can legally shoot a bird for training. I'll personally be fine, I'm committed and have a core group of folks to help out, property 10 minutes away I'm allowed to train on ( starter pistol only) and this Summer will have both shooter and homing pigeons to work with. But Jon Q. Public that's just getting started or whatever, I think he's got more work/red tape ahead of him than he used to is all.
You touched on 'commitment' and I think in general it just takes more work to enjoy any outdoors type activities than when we were kids...
On another note, if you buy the data I've posted above, the AKC is in trouble, less folks are hunting (per capita) but since the internet has popped up I've noticed a resurgence in some breeds; hunting bred Weimeraners, Braque du Bourbonnais, Slovakian Pointers, that kind of stuff...
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 27, 2015, 08:22:33 AM
http://www.cookecanyon.com/ (http://www.cookecanyon.com/)
Post by: addicted2hunting on March 27, 2015, 07:19:06 PM
I'd call Gary at Cooke if you need a few birds.ok good call thanks....
http://www.cookecanyon.com/ (http://www.cookecanyon.com/)
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 28, 2015, 12:53:17 AM
Post by: Don Fischer on March 28, 2015, 07:44:03 AM
There are plenty of free places to train. There are a lot of options for local events to give yourself a comparison against which you evaluate your own training abilities and areas where you may be weak and need to improve.
My point about 'yesteryear' is that folks used to be able to live downtown, and still hunt/train/shoot 15-20 minutes from their house. Shooting ordinances have been expanded to rural areas in some regions...
All of the places you listed are 30+ minutes from my door, I'm looking at nearly an hour of window time to get somewhere I can legally shoot a bird for training. I'll personally be fine, I'm committed and have a core group of folks to help out, property 10 minutes away I'm allowed to train on ( starter pistol only) and this Summer will have both shooter and homing pigeons to work with. But Jon Q. Public that's just getting started or whatever, I think he's got more work/red tape ahead of him than he used to is all.
You touched on 'commitment' and I think in general it just takes more work to enjoy any outdoors type activities than when we were kids...
On another note, if you buy the data I've posted above, the AKC is in trouble, less folks are hunting (per capita) but since the internet has popped up I've noticed a resurgence in some breeds; hunting bred Weimeraners, Braque du Bourbonnais, Slovakian Pointers, that kind of stuff...
I think there is a reason for the other breed's showing up. Show people bred the hunt instint down and field people breed it to hot.
Post by: constructeur on March 28, 2015, 06:10:17 PM
Paul-I understand your point, our NAVHDA events are packed to the gills for every scheduled event as well, with many folks lining up other options as far as 2 states away.
As a whole though folks with shotguns and dogs breed for wing work are on the decline.
Post by: jetjockey on March 29, 2015, 04:51:30 AM
Post by: AspenBud on March 29, 2015, 07:48:30 AM
The above said I can't help but wonder if some of the surge is also laziness. If people dig a little deeper than just generalizations about a breed they can usually find a dog that works. Or put another way, I think a lot of people wanting setters or Pointers would be happier with a Llewelin or line bred Elhew but they hop online, see what people have to say about those, and instead end up with a fire breather that is "too much dog." Or they see the horror stories of people doing that. That scenario applies to all the traditional breeds that have a heavy FT side.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 29, 2015, 07:56:59 AM
Post by: Don Fischer on March 29, 2015, 10:32:47 AM
Don- So what's your idea about renewed interest in rare breeds?
Paul-I understand your point, our NAVHDA events are packed to the gills for every scheduled event as well, with many folks lining up other options as far as 2 states away.
As a whole though folks with shotguns and dogs breed for wing work are on the decline.
Last 10 or 12 yrs I've seen a lot of different breeds come in. The Pointing Griffon is one that I can actually spell. The lab people have what they call the pointing lab but no test's that I know of. NAVHDA started a long time ago and there lots of different breed's in there, several relatively new breed's.
I think the decline in AKC pointing dog trial's is cause by a couple things. First the trials clubs do little or nothing to bring in new people. The AKC field trials can get very expensive. You can of course lower the cost with a tent and borrowed horse but the entry fee's are still around $65. Gas is expensive and not a lot of people have a close field trial club, certainly not one with a program to get none trialer's into it. A guy I've known a long time trials all he can. Told me a couple years ago it was running him $3000 a month! You actually go to a trial and run in an amateur stake and you'll soon find that what is being considered an amateur is people with many years of trial experience, some pro's that quit and mostly they are gonna kick your butt.
The wirehair club in Bend has training days a number of time's a year and the wirehair club over by Portland used to do quite a few program's a year. I'' don't know if they do any more. It is very hard to keep field trialing going if your doing little or nothing to promote it.
Post by: AspenBud on March 29, 2015, 11:10:49 AM
Don- So what's your idea about renewed interest in rare breeds?
Paul-I understand your point, our NAVHDA events are packed to the gills for every scheduled event as well, with many folks lining up other options as far as 2 states away.
As a whole though folks with shotguns and dogs breed for wing work are on the decline.
Last 10 or 12 yrs I've seen a lot of different breeds come in. The Pointing Griffon is one that I can actually spell. The lab people have what they call the pointing lab but no test's that I know of. NAVHDA started a long time ago and there lots of different breed's in there, several relatively new breed's.
I think the decline in AKC pointing dog trial's is cause by a couple things. First the trials clubs do little or nothing to bring in new people. The AKC field trials can get very expensive. You can of course lower the cost with a tent and borrowed horse but the entry fee's are still around $65. Gas is expensive and not a lot of people have a close field trial club, certainly not one with a program to get none trialer's into it. A guy I've known a long time trials all he can. Told me a couple years ago it was running him $3000 a month! You actually go to a trial and run in an amateur stake and you'll soon find that what is being considered an amateur is people with many years of trial experience, some pro's that quit and mostly they are gonna kick your butt.
The wirehair club in Bend has training days a number of time's a year and the wirehair club over by Portland used to do quite a few program's a year. I'' don't know if they do any more. It is very hard to keep field trialing going if your doing little or nothing to promote it.
Great post.
I think your point about the lack of promotion is a big one here. It's kind of hard to get people involved when they don't even know the events are going on.
The lack of training days is a big one too. The average guy coming to an amateur event for the first time is likely coming with a very good bird finder that isn't that steady on birds one way or another. There is a reason for that. Throw monthly training days into a club and guys have a chance to both train and test their dog's progress. There is a point to it then instead of simply getting humbled by the more dedicated people with means who train their dogs to a higher level. Much as I kind of wrinkle my nose at it, the folks with the Oregon Bird Dog Challenge have that right, you pay your dues and you get access to a training day and a competition day once a month. They also have singles events so if a person's dog has a bad day or isn't all that steady they aren't messing it up for a bracemate. Purests have a problem with that but for the games to succeed I think it's a necessary evil.