Post by: jasnt on January 23, 2015, 12:06:01 PM
I thought our buck to doe ratio was getting much better on my home property but I'm still seeing 2nd and 3rd estrus cycles both here at home and north of me. I'm seeing more bucks at home but they are mostly young bucks.
What are you seeing in your neck of the woods?
Post by: idaho guy on January 26, 2015, 04:11:16 PM
Post by: huntnnw on January 26, 2015, 09:30:29 PM
Post by: jasnt on January 26, 2015, 10:16:35 PM
nothing in 127...lotta bucks have dropped and pretty much all the 3 1/2 yr old and older are bare.sounds like you have a much better ratio there. Last year I noticed a lot of late fawns ex specially on the public land. Pics I'm getting show they are making threw the winter but some are very small! I may not hunt at home this year and bring in some youth hunters to take some does out. Bucks I'm seeing are looking thin and dragging there feet. Hoping we have a good spring this year.
Post by: huntnnw on January 26, 2015, 10:22:06 PM
Post by: jasnt on January 26, 2015, 10:52:10 PM
Post by: huntnnw on January 26, 2015, 11:06:11 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on February 18, 2015, 12:17:00 PM
The deer in the mountains anywhere in NE WA get relatively little pressure during all seasons compared to deer in other parts of the country. We have a high percentage of bucks that are dying in old age of natural causes (predator/winter/health, etc)... It's one of the many reasons making baiting illegal makes no sense what so ever... Even with that as a tool we aren't killing a vast majority of the older bucks.
There are some areas I hunt where I never see another bowhunter. There are areas I hunt that even during the rifle there may be a 4-5 rifle guys for thousands of acres.... that is extremely low pressure.
Post by: jasnt on February 18, 2015, 01:55:29 PM
Post by: buckcanyonlodge on February 18, 2015, 02:39:47 PM
Post by: jasnt on February 18, 2015, 03:35:14 PM
I have seen fresh scrapes year-round.. I believe they are more of a social scrape than a breeding scrape. One of the places I find sheds has a couple fresh scrapes on main trails year round. Just what I have observed after spending years in whitetail habitat.i agree and so do I. But these scrapeswhere new not the regular scrapes normally used. :dunno: guess we'll see when fawns drop
Post by: huntnnw on February 18, 2015, 09:24:13 PM
Post by: jasnt on February 19, 2015, 05:40:38 AM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on February 19, 2015, 10:02:25 AM
What I was pointing out is the 2nd and 3 estrus cycles. If there is plenty of bucks the does are still not getting bred quickly. This makes for late fawns and those late fawns must play catch-up to make it threw winter healthy.
I see a lot of fawn drops around 1 June. one year I literally watched as a doe gave birth. I came upon her by accident and unfortunately I spooked her just as she dropped. That puts her being bred about 14 November during the first estrus. Even if you have great buck to do ratios you will almost always have a 2nd estrus because some of the yearlings will come into estrus late.. that can be anywhere between 22 Nov- 31 Dec.... A true second estrus would be right around Mid December and the third would be Early-Mid Jan... I have personally never seen rutting that late in WA but it's certainly possible.... I have seen a little bit of rutting behavior around 15 December but for the most part it dies off almost completley within the first 5-10 Days of December (in the areas I hunt). That being said.. the rifle hunters actually have the best time because they get all the build up to the rut when the bucks are moving all over the place looking for does... If they take baiting away I also believe they should remove the rifle rut and give it to the bowhunters. :twocents:
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on February 19, 2015, 10:03:55 AM
What about the buck dogging the doe on jan 22?
That would be a third rut most likely (unless it was a yearling). How hard was he dogging her.. it could have just be general interest... I have seen bucks dog does that weren't hot.. just doing a little chase but then later ignoring her.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on February 19, 2015, 10:05:46 AM
whitetails will scrape yearround reguardless to the rut. I had 5 scrapes on trails last may-july going to a salt.
:yeah:
And they will especially hit licking branches year round.
Post by: jasnt on February 19, 2015, 10:10:23 AM
he was relentless. She kept bawling to him them take a few steps. He'd bump her in the rump while grunting quick and repeatedly She was def hot and he was persistentWhat about the buck dogging the doe on jan 22?
That would be a third rut most likely (unless it was a yearling). How hard was he dogging her.. it could have just be general interest... I have seen bucks dog does that weren't hot.. just doing a little chase but then later ignoring her.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on February 19, 2015, 10:27:23 AM
he was relentless. She kept bawling to him them take a few steps. He'd bump her in the rump while grunting quick and repeatedly She was def hot and he was persistentWhat about the buck dogging the doe on jan 22?
That would be a third rut most likely (unless it was a yearling). How hard was he dogging her.. it could have just be general interest... I have seen bucks dog does that weren't hot.. just doing a little chase but then later ignoring her.
Was it a yearling doe or mature one?
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on February 19, 2015, 10:36:08 AM
What I was pointing out is the 2nd and 3 estrus cycles. If there is plenty of bucks the does are still not getting bred quickly. This makes for late fawns and those late fawns must play catch-up to make it threw winter healthy.
I see a lot of fawn drops around 1 June. one year I literally watched as a doe gave birth. I came upon her by accident and unfortunately I spooked her just as she dropped. That puts her being bred about 14 November during the first estrus. Even if you have great buck to do ratios you will almost always have a 2nd estrus because some of the yearlings will come into estrus late.. that can be anywhere between 22 Nov- 31 Dec.... A true second estrus would be right around Mid December and the third would be Early-Mid Jan... I have personally never seen rutting that late in WA but it's certainly possible.... I have seen a little bit of rutting behavior around 15 December but for the most part it dies off almost completley within the first 5-10 Days of December (in the areas I hunt). That being said.. the rifle hunters actually have the best time because they get all the build up to the rut when the bucks are moving all over the place looking for does... If they take baiting away I also believe they should remove the rifle rut and give it to the bowhunters. :twocents:
I should clarify about removing the rifle rut before I tick someone off too much.. I think if they removed baiting the rifle rut hunt should be removed but then I think they should allow multi-season for everyone (no high cost draw tags like they do now)... I wouldn't even be opposed to cross-bows in the archery season (for anyone who wants to) to get more people in the outdoors.... The rifle season should then only be the October early General. The bow season could run from 1 Sept to 15 December with a two week October General and then a two week October Muzzle (all units open and everyone can hunt all seasons).
Post by: nwwanderer on February 19, 2015, 11:14:32 AM
Post by: jasnt on February 19, 2015, 06:52:18 PM
She is a big mature doe. I know her well. She had twins last year.he was relentless. She kept bawling to him them take a few steps. He'd bump her in the rump while grunting quick and repeatedly She was def hot and he was persistentWhat about the buck dogging the doe on jan 22?
That would be a third rut most likely (unless it was a yearling). How hard was he dogging her.. it could have just be general interest... I have seen bucks dog does that weren't hot.. just doing a little chase but then later ignoring her.
Was it a yearling doe or mature one?
These deer I have know for years. They all have names and visiting my food plots and feed stations daily. I average 1000-2000 pics a night from the food plots alone. Been doing this for 6 years now so I do have an intemint knowlage of this heard.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on February 19, 2015, 10:42:44 PM
She is a big mature doe. I know her well. She had twins last year.he was relentless. She kept bawling to him them take a few steps. He'd bump her in the rump while grunting quick and repeatedly She was def hot and he was persistentWhat about the buck dogging the doe on jan 22?
That would be a third rut most likely (unless it was a yearling). How hard was he dogging her.. it could have just be general interest... I have seen bucks dog does that weren't hot.. just doing a little chase but then later ignoring her.
Was it a yearling doe or mature one?
These deer I have know for years. They all have names and visiting my food plots and feed stations daily. I average 1000-2000 pics a night from the food plots alone. Been doing this for 6 years now so I do have an intemint knowlage of this heard.
Definitely very interesting. Not something I have personally witnessed.
Post by: boneaddict on February 20, 2015, 12:26:38 AM
Post by: jasnt on February 20, 2015, 05:42:44 AM
I wonder if she could have lost her fawn and came back in to heat. Definitely an outlier.that is a possibility, I hadn't thought of that.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on February 20, 2015, 06:45:49 AM
I wonder if she could have lost her fawn and came back in to heat. Definitely an outlier.that is a possibility, I hadn't thought of that.
:yeah:
I didn't think of that either.
Post by: fishnfur on February 20, 2015, 10:48:01 PM
I saw a blacktail fawn this year in early November that couldn't have been older than just 8 - 10 weeks. I assume they don't survive the winters well when the does are bred in mid-winter and then drop late in summer.
Just my guess of what you are observing.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on February 21, 2015, 02:17:06 AM
Very likely the doe was having problems getting pregnant - just like some humans do. They will keep going into estrous and breeding until they get an egg implanted in the uterus. I read studies of Muley doe ovaries studied under microscope that indicated that many of the does had already had a unsuccessful pregnancy just prior to that year's main rutting period.
I saw a blacktail fawn this year in early November that couldn't have been older than just 8 - 10 weeks. I assume they don't survive the winters well when the does are bred in mid-winter and then drop late in summer.
Just my guess of what you are observing.
Makes more sense to me than a third rut resulting from does not being bred.
Post by: fishnfur on February 21, 2015, 08:43:53 AM
It's not really a rut, it's just the last trickles of breeding activity occurring way outside the normal window that the breeding usually takes place. One lucky buck is still gettin' some action. The others are just trying to survive winter, or in the case of this year, enjoying the sun.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on February 21, 2015, 09:36:34 AM
Well, it really kind of is a 3rd "rut", or more probably 5th, based on the late date. Bucks will always chase and breed a doe in estrous. We think of rut as a thing bucks do, but it is really a doe thing that the bucks respond to. Every 20 - 28 days, the does will come into heat again until they are impregnated.
It's not really a rut, it's just the last trickles of breeding activity occurring way outside the normal window that the breeding usually takes place. One lucky buck is still gettin' some action. The others are just trying to survive winter, or in the case of this year, enjoying the sun.
I agree..that is why I added not a third rut "as a result of does not being bred"...because you could refer to any breeding activity as rut activity.. I would think that any doe that came into heat was caught in their Nov/Dec cycles... there are plenty of bucks for that.