Post by: big_bucks on December 27, 2008, 10:16:42 AM
I've really only shot one deer in the last 15 years over 400 yards, and had a dead rest off of my sticks. 99% of the time my regular calibers have done the job nicely with one well-placed shot.
It seems like the gun and ammo makers have convinced many of us that we need a big new magnum to kill a buck. Seems like all it does is cost us more money for ammo with more powder, bigger scopes and heavy new rifles. I personally got tired of packing the cannon and went back to my bread and butter guns. I don't have a desire to shoot animals at 700 yards so I've decided that the fancy mags are a waste of time and money for me. Might be good for that once in a lifetime moose or big bear, but for deer and antelope and most elk situations it's not necessary so it seems dumb to waste my money for that 1% of the time that a magnum would be handy.
Anyone else feel like there's waaaayy too much hype about a bunch of calibers that really aren't necessary? I think they just had to find a way to sell all of us more crap to fill up our cabinets.
Thoughts?
Post by: 270Shooter on December 27, 2008, 10:38:20 AM
Mags only help IMO on really long shots like over 600 yards, which is too far for 95% of hunters to be shooting, me included.
They are only made because people buy new things and they are fun to read about in magazines. Its all hype to me :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on December 27, 2008, 10:41:56 AM
Post by: wilsongideon on December 27, 2008, 10:48:31 AM
Post by: robodad on December 27, 2008, 10:52:03 AM
Quote
There is a lot better chance of finding a place to buy .270 win ammo especially if your in a small town.
I agree it's all hype, besides I cannot afford one anyway, I just stick with the 30.06, I have never been anywhere I cannot buy ammo for them especially in small towns, every store has it and its cheap !! ;)
Post by: gasman on December 27, 2008, 10:58:32 AM
A buddy of mine shoots a 300 ultra Mag, "A Penis Extention". :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: addicted on December 27, 2008, 10:59:58 AM
through the last few centuries there has always been a need to upgrade because efficiancy is the difference between life and death and many people probably felt that way somewhere along the line with magnums even though it may seem like life and death when you can only get time out of the office and the family for 3 days a year but really it's not and hopefully there will always be a next year. there will always be that time when you thought yeah i could have flung a bullet at that buck if i had a magnum...... but not killing every buck you see is part of the passion.
I like shooting magnums. i think its cool that i can fling a bullet way out there, but as soon as i got a magnum the only deer i saw to shoot was at 60 yards.
with big bucks but i will still probably buy and use magnums as personal preferance witch is really one of the great things about hunting. 99% of it is opinion. how else would we be able to talk about it so long on the forums lol
Post by: mossback91 on December 27, 2008, 11:02:11 AM
Post by: bobcat on December 27, 2008, 11:04:02 AM
Post by: addicted on December 27, 2008, 11:08:54 AM
Post by: big_bucks on December 27, 2008, 11:09:34 AM
Anyway, I talked him out of the magnum. Next thing you know the guy at the gun shop is gonna start trying to sell us those extenze pills or viagra. A total joke.
Gotta wonder how many idiots he's duped into buying a cannon that don't have the ability to shoot them.
Post by: rasbo on December 27, 2008, 11:14:48 AM
Post by: jdb on December 27, 2008, 11:19:14 AM
Post by: stumprat on December 27, 2008, 11:25:43 AM
Post by: addicted on December 27, 2008, 11:29:20 AM
Post by: flyguide on December 27, 2008, 12:05:27 PM
Post by: addicted on December 27, 2008, 12:12:45 PM
They are always trying to find a niche for a new caliber because the ammo and firearm industry not only wants better sales but almost needs it. The WSM's , the next step after magnums. Financially, probably a good step for the industry due to the hot sales.
Post by: rasbo on December 27, 2008, 12:18:31 PM
Post by: arcticguy57 on December 27, 2008, 12:24:05 PM
Post by: Red Dawg on December 27, 2008, 12:53:40 PM
Post by: big_bucks on December 27, 2008, 01:35:08 PM
Post by: 7mag. on December 27, 2008, 01:42:15 PM
Post by: big_bucks on December 27, 2008, 01:43:53 PM
I shoot a 7mag., and I love it. I don't know that it is neccesary to have a magnum, but I've never lost an animal with it. On the other hand, I just sold my .338 mag., and I did lose an elk with it a couple of years ago. Shot placement and taking ethical shots, are far more important than caliber and the amount of powder behind it.
+1
Post by: fishseeker on December 27, 2008, 03:43:10 PM
Post by: 280ackley on December 27, 2008, 04:27:27 PM
I love hunting with any rifle. I just happened to have a couple mags and a couple standard issue rifles and love them all equally. I yes everyone needs every gun every made.:yeah:
Post by: Bigshooter on December 27, 2008, 06:02:09 PM
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on December 27, 2008, 09:03:32 PM
So the logical choice was something that absolutely would put the smack down on the deer or elk, no questions asked. Something that would hit like a freight train at 9 miles and would liquidise the insides of an animal at close range. Preferably a caliber/cartridge that would smash bone at any range. Not just one shoulder but both shoulders. Also a cartridge/caliber combo that I would never have to worry about replacing or going out of usability or production. So 16 years ago I bought a .300 by. I have never ever had to worry about my guns ability to kill what I am hunting. EVER! That is exactly the way I want it. I have killed many deer with This rifle and it has always been no contest. They are done for immediately. No worries ever. I don't ever have to worry about the magnum hype. I bought the only gun I will ever need for almost all game worldwide. .300 by is and always has been king of magnums. I have a good feeling inside over the fact that I don't have to worry about what gun to use. Anytime I rifle hunt my hand always reaches for the one and only rifle/cartridge that I will ever need to worry about. If you want a gun that will do it all all the time then reach for the super magnum. If not then go ahead and buy all kinds of different guns. I prefer shooting my bow and scouting rather than worrying about my rifle and cartridges ability to get the job done. :twocents:
Oh and don't worry I shot the .270 win. plenty. I have a BAR with the boss that shoots one hole groups at 100 yards. I have and my wife have both taken many deer with it. I feel better equipped when carrying the Weatherby. I shot a spike Elk in Oregon a few years ago at 538 yards. First shot was mid body just barley in front of the shoulder bone. Put a hole in the shoulder the diameter of a soft ball. He still ran off a couple hundred yards. Found him in his bed and plugged him in the head. I have a friend that uses a .375 H&H for elk and moose. He shot a 6x6 elk in Oregon a couple years ago at close range on the run. The first shot broke the shoulder and traveled the entire length of the body and he found the bullet in the hind quarter in the off side. The first shot dropped the bull and it immediately jumped up and took off and he drilled it again and took him down for good.
Ultimately use what you feel comfortable with. The muzzle blast and kick of the super magnum is not for everybody. Just about anybody can shoot a deer or Elk at 300 yards. Will your .270 even with super premium ammunition/bullets break that onside shoulder on a giant bull and make it to the vitals. Maybe. I shoot the mega magnum because I know it it will. No maybe involved. :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on December 27, 2008, 09:08:03 PM
Post by: ICEMAN on December 27, 2008, 09:19:28 PM
Post by: addicted on December 28, 2008, 03:21:21 AM
Magnums are for men.
:chuckle:
Post by: huntnphool on December 28, 2008, 11:32:34 AM
Post by: GEARHEAD on December 28, 2008, 12:22:57 PM
an African hunter named Bell,(who i think shot the most Elephant), shot the majority of his Elephant in the head with a 7x57, given the bullets of the day and being a little bit slower than my tiny 7-08, i think thats saying something.
i did however fall for the magnum thing, as i replaced my trusty 06 with a 300wsm. i wanted that short action in a very handy and light rifle i built. i do however plan on loading it to my 06 specs.
Post by: jdb on December 28, 2008, 03:34:23 PM
Magnums are for men.men with small wieners :chuckle:
Post by: MAVsled on December 28, 2008, 04:28:41 PM
My first deer & spike bull elk were with a family heirloom, originally 32-40 cal<or something like that> model 94 winchester converted back in the early 1950's to a 32 winchester special. One shot dropped both animals in their tracks and both were under 100 yards.
25-06 weatherby vanguard did the trick on deer for one season.
My model 100 semi auto .308 winchester was with me for many seasons b4 being retired to the gun vault.
An old style Win featherweight 30-06 was a fine caliber for both deer and elk while in my late 20's/early 30's age range.
but for eastern WA muley and all my elk hunting, you would have to pry my 300 win mag from my dead, cold fingers before I use any other rifle/caliber now. Like Jeremiah Johnson did to Hatchet Jack in the movie ;)
It is still about shot placement and how much caliber you can shoot accurately, and I don't mean only using bipods or a rest, geez. I took several bull elk on out of state trips in the past...and none on private ranches as I frown upon that. Backwoods wilderness guided or public land DIY is the best, if you are physically able!
In 3 outfitter's elk camps, discussion always occurred around the evening fire about best caliber. What I gathered from several outfitter's opinions versus client Dr's, Lawyers and such; a guy with a 270 was frowned upon, even if he could shoot that caliber accurately. Worse was a guy with a big magnum who couldn't shoot it! Many times I heard around the camp fires of how the guy with the big magnum missed, or the follow up shots needed from a 270. I'm sure the first one couldn't shoot worth a can of beans and the latter didn't get good shot placement.
Funny, those outfitters-guides could always determine which client could hunt-shoot from those who couldn't. I guess the pre-hunt, check the sights shoot (bench rest check and off hand shots) clued them in.
4 bull elk from those trips , all taken with the 300 mag and 3 were one shot kills. The 4th was hit twice, that big bodied 5x6 was on the run at 150 yards with a purpose and that purpose was to get the heck out of there; first shot placed in the heart-lung area but guide said shoot again so I did. After 2nd shot, bull went 80 yards downhill and piled up. Both shots placed in the pocket behind the front shoulder within 4" apart, resulting in a fist sized exit hole.
Man, what a tough bull that one was.
Post by: TeacherMan on December 28, 2008, 06:32:04 PM
Post by: Hacksaw on December 28, 2008, 07:29:01 PM
Post by: catwithboost on December 28, 2008, 07:30:49 PM
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on December 28, 2008, 07:31:33 PM
For some reason Teacherman, the first line of your post made a possible Sir Mix Alot remix start ringing in my ears - "I like big guns and I cannot lie ........" :chuckle:
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:................... :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :lol4:
Post by: 280ackley on December 28, 2008, 08:10:22 PM
For some reason Teacherman, the first line of your post made a possible Sir Mix Alot remix start ringing in my ears - "I like big guns and I cannot lie ........" :chuckle:Good one. :chuckle:
Post by: addicted on December 28, 2008, 11:17:57 PM
For some reason Teacherman, the first line of your post made a possible Sir Mix Alot remix start ringing in my ears - "I like big guns and I cannot lie ........" :chuckle::chuckle:
when is the music video going to come out for that one. i hear it has some pretty sweet scope bite.
Post by: dbllunger on December 29, 2008, 08:32:18 AM
Post by: CSOUTFITTERS on December 29, 2008, 09:28:16 AM
Now here is the deal. Do i think my ultra mag is better than other calibers. NO, only because Ive seen more nice bucks killed with a inexpensive 30-06 or a .270. I helped an ol timer kill a monster buck at 438 yds (about a 1/4 mile) and he was using an old savage rifle with a dented simmons scope($300 setup). He center punched it twice and i thought wow, i guess i dont need a $1500 or a $2500 setup to kill a trophy. Just goes to show that a good rest, skill and knowing your rifle goes alot farther than inexperience and good gear; Some trophy hunting mags would say otherwise.
Great to be a part of hunting-washington. Ive always been a long time reader. And no im not an Outfitter, my other name BOWHUNTWA would not register
Post by: Bofire on December 29, 2008, 09:31:30 AM
You will find many Magnums do not perform as well as non-magnums, You will find many Magnums that perfrom very slightly better than non, and a very few Magnums that really bring anything to the table. The big Magnums 375 and larger, dont need the name, they have big bullets.
Some of the biggest "Bar room" ballistics I hear seem to center around Weatherbys and then the Magnums at or under .33 caliber. I may have heard more claims about 7mmRem than any other magnum. Study the numbers for your self, but study to learn, not to prove your point.
Carl
ps: Bell mostly used lung shots and waited to "hear them fall".
Post by: Hacksaw on December 29, 2008, 10:12:44 AM
Post by: big_bucks on December 29, 2008, 10:48:48 AM
Post by: 7mag. on December 29, 2008, 10:50:03 AM
Post by: Hacksaw on December 29, 2008, 11:27:57 AM
What you are forgetting is energy transfer at extended ranges. Some cartridges just hit harder at ranges past 250-300.
That is very true. However the case I was referring to is a difference of only 145 ft/lbs at 400 yds. For other bullets and loads, I know the differences are bigger. I don't worry too much about looking at the charts for distances past 400 yds, mostly because I don't think most guys,including myself, can shoot accurately enough past that distance to make bullet energy the most important factor in killing an animal.
I am not arguing that big magnums have their place, and the whole "Best of the West" series and there videos "Beyond Belief" really have me wanting a 7mm mag just to see what I could do. I just know I don't really need it. Hell, if I had the money though I'd have 'em all. My belief is that for most of Washington's big game the best gun is probably the one you shoot the best and have the most confidence in, regardless of caliber (to some extent).
I just get frustrated because my old man and I are fortunate enough to have our own shooting range with benches at 100, 200, 300, and 400. You can get back to 475 yds if we mow a bit more. When you have a range, it seems like everyone shows up about September to get "dialed in." In the group of guys that come out each year, all of the worst shooters are the guys shooting big magnums. These guys flinch all over the place, but then brag about how they can knock down an elk at 500yds if they need to. I laugh to myself because what I am really think is "yeah, you've got more energy for knocking the leg or the ass off an elk." In no way am I trying to generalize this to all magnum shooters, just this group guys. I just get a real chuckle when they can't shoot a group at 100 yds, but they all want to move back to 300 yds and 400 yds. I really chuckle when one of them hands me the gun after everyone has left and asks me to see if a can get it dialed in at 100 yds for them.
Post by: 7mag. on December 29, 2008, 11:54:25 AM
Post by: Bofire on December 29, 2008, 01:57:10 PM
My point is the term, Magnum, means nothing.
I would rather shoot my 30/06 with a 180 at 2700fps, at a 1000 yard match than my 22-250 at 3600fps with a 55 grain.
Carl
Post by: 300UltraMagShooter on December 29, 2008, 02:23:54 PM
When shooting, I practice watching the bullet hit the target. If you do this (which I know you can't actually do this with any bullet bigger than a 22 long), you will have no way to flinch because you are focusing on what you should be focusing on and not the kick.
I grew up shooting a 22 long all the time. With a 22 and a little practice, you can actually watch the bullet hit at around 100 yards. This is a great way to learn good technique.
Post by: Hacksaw on December 29, 2008, 02:51:00 PM
What difference is there between a 24 ft pounds at the shoulder or 36 ft pounds?
About 12 ft/lbs. :chuckle: ......................Or 50% increase in recoil.
When at the range, it is always the guys that are afraid of the magnums that need a few lessons. Once you learn to shoot correctly, you should never have a problem from one gun to the next.
What's funny is that if a person doesn't think a magnum is necessary, then they are accused of being afraid of them. Actually, because of it's lightweight, my .280 mtn rifle kicks as hard or harder than many of the magnums I shoot. I also usually end up sighting in the magnums for the guys who think hitting a paper plate twice at a hundred is dialed in. The point I was trying to make is that, at least for the abnormal group that shoot I've shot with, many, not all, of the people shooting magnums still haven't learned to shoot necessarily any better than everyone else or even extremely well for that matter, yet they think they need a rifle to extend their shooting capabilities at game.
Post by: 300UltraMagShooter on December 29, 2008, 02:57:59 PM
What difference is there between a 24 ft pounds at the shoulder or 36 ft pounds?
About 12 ft/lbs. :chuckle: Or a 150% increase in felt recoil.When at the range, it is always the guys that are afraid of the magnums that need a few lessons. Once you learn to shoot correctly, you should never have a problem from one gun to the next.
What's funny is that if you don't think a magnum is necessary, then your accused of being afraid of them. Actually, because of it's lightweight, my .280 mtn rifle kicks as hard or harder than many of the magnums I shoot. I also usually end up sighting in the magnums for the guys who think hitting a paper plate twice at a hundred is dialed in. The point I was trying to make is that, at least for the abnormal group that shoot I've shot with, many, not all, of the people shooting magnums still haven't learned to shoot necessarily any better than everyone else or even extremely well for that matter, yet they think they need a rifle to extend their shooting capabilities at game.
I , and most other magnum shooters I know, never said that magnums are necessary. They are just fun. I simply like the extra power, and I can't honestly tell the difference in kick. My 300 ultra with a recoil pad kicks about like my cousins 06 without the pad and I get a lot more down range energy. What is the big deal? Not saying the magnum is needed, but I sure do like having it. And yes, if you are worried about the kick, then you would by definition be afraid of it.
Post by: 7mag. on December 29, 2008, 03:04:21 PM
Post by: GoldTip on December 29, 2008, 03:06:17 PM
Post by: Hacksaw on December 29, 2008, 03:41:00 PM
Post by: 300UltraMagShooter on December 29, 2008, 03:59:05 PM
I can't say that I could give you any good suggestions beyond the 300 ultra. I am still testing myself. One thing I can say about my 300 ultra is if I load it to 06 levels and 150 grain loads, it gets incredible MOA. If I can ever get the larger loads (200 grain plus) to do the same, this is going to be one awesome gun. Right now, I am get just over 1 MOA with 200 grain federal premium nosler partition. I am working on some hand loads, but it is still a learning process for me. I just got it last year, so I am still working on getting the best out of it.
Sorry 300 UltraMagShooter, I didn't mean to put that 1 in front of the 50. I just couldn't resist the 12 ft/lbs thing though. Just trying to keep it light. By the way, I've never mentioned being bothered by recoil. I just said that some of the guys shooting at our range flinch like they got Turret's or something - probably wouldn't matter if they were shooting their .338 mags or a .243. i'm sure you've seen guys like this too. The ones who give themselves whiplash on a dryfire because they forget to chamber a round. You're right, mental conditioning and just plain old time at the range learning to shoot goes a long way no matter what you're shooting. And, just so you know, I'm saving up for a magnum. Just haven't decided which one yet. I'm open for suggestions.
Post by: Curly on December 29, 2008, 04:22:01 PM
That said, I hunt w/ a .300Win mag for all my rifle hunting. A couple hundred fps advantage over the -06 isn't "necessary" but it is nice. Although, I've never killed an animal with my magnum rifle that I could not have killed with a non-magnum.
Post by: Chopaka81 on January 04, 2009, 05:28:18 PM
These days, I have rifles chambered well above it, and several below it. I do have to say I have less and less regard for the excessive freebore WBY Mags. I a 257 & a 300 Wby, they have gone squirally on me.
I am going to send the Rem M700 in 300Wby off to Shawn Carlock and have it rebarreled to a 338 Edge. This is a awesum cartridge that is very capable of 1500yds and beyond.
I do like the 270 Win for the close in stuff.
Post by: cohoho on January 05, 2009, 11:22:20 AM
Choosing a Firearm,
Cartridge and Bullet
How accurately you shoot is more important than the type of rifle, cartridge, and bullet you choose. Alaska has some very large game animals, including 1600-pound mature bull moose and 1500-pound coastal brown bears. Moose or brown bear hit in the gut with a large caliber magnum rifle such as the popular .338 Winchester® Magnum is wounded and just as likely to escape as if it had been hit with a small caliber rifle such as the .243 Winchester®. The bore size, bullet weight, and velocity are of secondary importance to precise bullet placement in the vital heart-lung area.
It is important for the hunter to have a good knowledge of game anatomy, the ability to correctly judge distance, the discipline to take only shots that can be made with certainty, and the ability to shoot accurately from sitting, kneeling, and standing positions. As long as the caliber is reasonable and a quality bullet is used, hunters kill game quickly and humanely with precise bullet placement.
If you presently own a rifle chambered for the .270 Winchester, 7mm-08, .308 Winchester or .30-06 and can place all of your shots in an 8-inch circle out to 200 yards from a sitting or kneeling position you can be a successful Alaskan hunter. To be as effective as possible these cartridges should be loaded with premium quality bullets such as the Nosler Partition®. If hit in the heart-lung area with a 180 grain Nosler Partition® fired from a .30-06, the bullet will pass completely through a mature bull moose, interior grizzly, or black bear.
Big magnums not needed
Because of the presence of brown and grizzly bears, many hunters have been convinced that a .300, .338, .375, or .416 magnum is needed for personal protection and to take large Alaskan game. This is simply not true. The recoil and noise of these large cartridges is unpleasant at best and plainly painful to many shooters. It is very difficult to concentrate on shot placement when your brain and body remembers the unpleasant recoil and noise which occurs when you pull the trigger on one of the big magnums.
The two most common complaints of professional Alaskan guides are hunters who are not in good physical condition and hunters who cannot accurately shoot their rifles. Because they do not practice enough they cannot shoot accurately enough. They miss their best chance at taking their dream animal or worse yet, they wound and lose an animal. Most experienced guides prefer the hunter come to camp with a .270 or .30-06 rifle they can shoot well rather than a shiny new magnum that has been fired just enough to get sighted-in. If you are going to hunt brown bear on the Alaska Peninsula or Kodiak Island, a .30-06 loaded with 200 or 220 grain Nosler® or similar premium bullet will do the job with good shot placement. Only consider using a .300, .338 or larger magnum if you can shoot it as well as you can the .30-06.
It is very popular now to purchase large magnum rifles equipped with a muzzle brake. Most muzzle brakes are very effective at reducing recoil. A .375 magnum with a muzzle brake recoils much like a .30-06. Before you are convinced that you should use a muzzle-braked rifle in Alaska, you should consider its disadvantages.
A muzzle-brake increases the muzzle blast and noise to levels that quickly damage the ear. Even when just sighting in or practicing, everyone near you at the range will find the blast and noise bothersome. Anyone near the muzzle brake when the rifle is fired may suffer hearing loss or physical damage to the ear.
You cannot wear ear protection when you are hunting and neither can your hunting partners or guide. An increasing number of guides will not allow a hunter to use a muzzle brake because of the danger of hearing loss.
Rifle weight reduces recoil
Rather than rely on a muzzle-brake to reduce recoil, use a rifle heavy enough to reduce recoil. If you are planning on packing out moose meat, caribou meat, or a brown bear hide weighing hundreds of pounds, you can carry a 9- to 11-pound rifle including scope. A rifle of this weight in .300 or .338 magnum can be mastered with a lot of practice. You can also avoid using a muzzle-brake by selecting a cartridge that you can shoot comfortably and enjoy shooting enough to practice often. For most hunters, the upper limit of recoil is the .30-06 or 7mm Remington Magnum®. A majority of hunters are more comfortable with a .308 or .270.
What type of action should you use?
If you are choosing a rifle for Alaskan hunting, you should strongly consider a modern bolt action rifle made of stainless steel bedded in a synthetic stock. The Browning A-Bolt® and Savage® 116 are excellent examples of all-weather Alaskan rifles. The bolt action is recommended because it is mechanically simple, can be partially disassembled in the field for cleaning, and is the most reliable action under poor weather conditions. Stainless steel is excellent for most Alaskan hunting because it resists rust caused by rain or snow. Stainless steel will rust in time and must be maintained after each day of field use.
Round-nosed or pointed bullets?
A high quality rifle bullet placed into the heart or lungs of a big game animal at approximately 2000 to 2800 feet per second will expand or “mushroom” and destroy the vital organs. The shape of the bullet has no direct effect on its function, its accuracy, or its ability to kill. A “round-nosed” bullet that penetrates and destroys a vital organ is just as effective as the most streamlined of bullets.
However, a pointed bullet does not lose velocity as quickly as a round-nosed bullet. For example, a .30-06 firing a 180 grain pointed bullet which leaves the barrel at 2700 feet per second, is travelling 2300 feet per second at 200 yards. In comparison, a round-nosed 180 grain bullet at the same speed will have slowed to 2000 feet per second at the same distance, because the pointed bullet can cut through the air with less resistance just like a sleek fighter jet. Under actual field conditions, this will make no difference between a good hit, bad hit, or miss. At distances beyond 200 yards, a pointed bullet will not drop as quickly as a round-nosed bullet. Most hunters should not shoot big game at distances further than 200 yards.
Quality is more important than shape
The bullet shape is not as important as the quality of the bullet and how well your rifle will shoot a particular bullet. Some rifles will shoot a pointed bullet more accurately and some will shoot a round-nosed bullet more accurately. You should try quality bullets of both shapes to find out which weight and shape your firearm prefers.
How Much Performance Can You Stand?
“Modern…cartridges already burn more powder, make more noise and kick us harder than makes sense. The current trend to bigger brass borders on a collective obsession with brute force. I talked with one [hunter] who told me that a deer he’d shot from behind with a magnum cartridge had flipped end for end. He paused to let that sink in, as if flinging deer around like bowling pins was every man’s passion. I’m afraid it was all lost on me. My measure of a hunt differs. Velocity, powder weight and bullet weight all contribute to recoil. Extra rifle weight will absorb some recoil. A well shaped stock and soft pad will help you handle recoil, but they won’t diminish it. For that you need a muzzle brake. The device tames kick but is bad medicine afield where you can’t wear earmuffs. We needn’t stop Panzers in the aspens; our bullets need only kill animals. I have never seen a well-hit elk stay on its feet for more than a few yards of travel.
Hard kicking rifles that are expensive to shoot commonly spend most of their time in the rack at home. You may not consciously avoid shooting powerful rifles, but you’re less likely to shoot them often. Result: insufficient practice.… Dead doesn’t come in degrees. And a well placed bullet from a .30-06 cartridge or its kin kills game animals dead as far as most of us can hit with certainty on the hunt.
Hunters typically want to shoot farther than they have to shoot. Usually there’s a way to get a close shot when you have a long one…. If you routinely spook game your stalking skills need polish.
The ‘fling an arrow before he gets away’ philosophy leaves a lot of animals dying slowly back in the black timber. Hunting is not a just a game. The animal isn’t armor-plated and suffers greatly for a bad shot.”
Excepted from, Wayne van Zwoll, “How Much Performance Can You Stand?” Bugle, July/Aug. 1998.
How Far Should I Shoot?
“The elk stepped clear of the aspens at about 400 yards. He was a grand bull, the one we'd come for. The hunter's rifle lay still across my spotting scope; the tripod already adjusted for his position. But he didn't shoot.
Why? Because 400 yards is a blooming long shot, that's why! Even with a .300 magnum on a solid rest, you'll seldom hit where you want to at 400 steps. But these days, the hills are full of hunters who say they routinely kill game at 400 yards. Are they daft or am I?
Except on flat, featureless terrain, we commonly guess long. Some hunters who claim long shooting have only their own estimate or the guide's as proof. It feels good to think we've shot long.
Of course, some hunters have made very long shots. Some of these fellows are exceptional marksmen. The rest have been lucky. My own records of guided hunters show that beyond 200 yards the probability of a fatal hit drops dramatically. Farther than that, there's only an even chance the hunter will hit vitals the size of a fruit basket. The few shooters who score consistently beyond the 200-yard mark can do it as handily with a .30-06 as with the latest super magnum.
Does that mean that hot-dog cartridges are worthless? Well, no. However, more powerful cartridges kick harder and make more noise, and if the hunter has trouble shooting them accurately, the somewhat flatter trajectory does them little good. A .30-06 or .308 will shoot flat enough for a “point blank” range of 250 yards if you zero at 200; besides, most big game is killed at ranges of under 200 yards, where you don't need more bullet speed.
Accurate bullet placement matters more than speed or energy at any range. Hunters shooting .270's and .30-06's can be deadlier than hunters with bigger rifles who have developed a flinch from blast or recoil. Within 200 yards ordinary cartridges have energy to spare for bullet expansion and penetration.
Shooting targets from a bench gives hunters a false sense of security because the support holds the rifle still. If you want to know how you'll fare in the field, get off the bench, jog to the 100-yard target frame and back again, then hastily get into a hunting position and squeeze off one shot. Repeat 10 times. That group won't be as small as those you fired from the bench.
Remember, group size and placement both matter. Draw an eight-inch circle around the aiming point to represent the vitals. Then count the number of bullet holes outside the ring. Your maximum effective range, in my view, is that at which you can keep nine of 10 shots in this circle. It just makes sense to be 90 percent sure of a killing hit before pulling the trigger.
Effective range varies with your shooting position. Standing, I'm not much of a threat beyond 120 yards. Kneeling, with a sling, I'm dangerous to about 180. Sitting, I'll shoot to 250.
At 400 yards a rifle that shoots 2-inch groups at 100 yards (from a bench rest) is already scattering bullets over an area almost as big as the vitals area. Add a 40-yard error in range estimation (at 10 percent that's a small error; but your bullet drops twice as far between 300 and 400 yards as between the muzzle and 300). Add a slight muscle twitch, a little side pressure on the trigger, the thump of your heart at the wrong time ....
And then there's the wind. The effect of wind increases dramatically with range. A modest 10 m.p.h. crosswind can push a .270 bullet 15 inches at 400 yards — but that same breeze moves it less than 4 inches at 200 yards. Unlike gravity, wind direction or speed cannot be predicted. At the target both direction and speed may be different than they seem to you at your position. Sudden gusts, letoffs, and direction changes can foil your attempts at determining wind, and that lethal bullet can skate off course like a Ping-Pong ball in the blast of a fan.
The key to more successful hunting isn't reaching farther with your rifle; it's knowing how far you can shoot effectively, getting within that yardage, and taking care with every shot.
Practice counts too, as my hunter learned when the bull we'd been watching drifted out of the timber 400 yards away and angled toward us. At 300 yards, in failing light, the animal stopped. 'Your call,' I whispered. 'I can do it,' he said and squeezed the trigger. Fourteen rounds later the bull died. Even 300 yards is a blooming long shot.”
Excepted from, Wayne van Zwoll, “Reaching Out,” Field & Stream, Sept. 1999.
Post by: addicted on January 05, 2009, 11:29:50 AM
Post by: haugenna on January 05, 2009, 07:17:56 PM
Magnums are for men.men with small wieners :chuckle:
I shoot the magnums and wear the magnums.
Post by: JACKALL on January 05, 2009, 07:52:43 PM
Post by: 300UltraMagShooter on January 05, 2009, 07:54:04 PM
The one thing I do agree with is that shot placement is key, but I believe that a big gun can help you with that. It can obviously hurt someone also, but I believe practice will take care of that for the most part...
Post by: MAVsled on January 05, 2009, 08:07:19 PM
Magnums are for men.men with small wieners :chuckle:
I shoot the magnums and wear the magnums.
good friend of mine wore magnums a time or two...big bloody ring over his aiming eye where the magnum recoil imprinted the scope on his forehead :chuckle:
He learned quickly he couldn't creep up the magnum like his little 270 win.
Post by: haugenna on January 05, 2009, 08:08:32 PM
The guy shot a griz at 17 feet with a 300 grain bullet from a 416 and the bear continued to maul the guys arms and legs off for the next 60 seconds until the bear expired.
You can NEVER have too much gun. Especially in Griz country.
Post by: haugenna on January 05, 2009, 08:12:52 PM
Magnums are for men.men with small wieners :chuckle:
I shoot the magnums and wear the magnums.
good friend of mine wore magnums a time or two...big bloody ring over his aiming eye where the magnum recoil imprinted the scope on his forehead :chuckle:
He learned quickly he couldn't creep up the magnum like his little 270 win.
??? Is it me? I don't think you got my joke..
Post by: ICEMAN on January 06, 2009, 06:17:24 AM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 06, 2009, 06:23:51 AM
Remember guys.....condoms come in many sizes, including "Magnum". 8)
I bet "snub nose" was nixed in the marketing dept. :chuckle:
Post by: ICEMAN on January 06, 2009, 06:27:00 AM
Or "automatic fire..."
Post by: addicted on January 06, 2009, 11:22:53 AM
Remember guys.....condoms come in many sizes, including "Magnum". 8)
some guys just need a lazer and a surefire attached to the bottom so they can figure out where the hell to put it :chuckle:
Post by: Chopaka81 on January 06, 2009, 04:06:21 PM
Whenever I go into places like Horseshoe Basin I leave my 270Win at home in favor of my Custom M700 28" bbl 300WBY with 200gr Nosler PT's pushed to 3000 fps. The rifle weighs in at 11.5 lbs.
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on February 07, 2009, 09:35:17 PM
I wonder how many of the anti-magnum bunch are barbless fly fisherman and have registered profiles on the Washington Fly Fisherman's web site? A lot of what has been said here by the anti-magnum folks sounds very similar to what I have heard from fly fisherman at Chopaka Lake. :bash:
Whenever I go into places like Horseshoe Basin I leave my 270Win at home in favor of my Custom M700 28" bbl 300WBY with 200gr Nosler PT's pushed to 3000 fps. The rifle weighs in at 11.5 lbs.
Holy crap! That rifle sounds freaking awesome. What kind of accuracy are you getting and what powder do you use, if you don't mind me asking? I am a .300 Wby enthusiast.
Post by: cascademountainhunter on February 07, 2009, 09:56:18 PM
Post by: Gutpile on February 07, 2009, 10:00:27 PM
Anyone else feel like there's waaaayy too much hype about a bunch of calibers that really aren't necessary? I think they just had to find a way to sell all of us more crap to fill up our cabinets.
Thoughts?
I agree but I have the urge occasionally. I think a .308 is plenty for anything in the lower 48 but what fun is that? I just like guns! I only own one magnum rifle, a 350 Rem Mag. BOOM
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on February 07, 2009, 10:02:02 PM
Anyone else feel like there's waaaayy too much hype about a bunch of calibers that really aren't necessary? I think they just had to find a way to sell all of us more crap to fill up our cabinets.
Thoughts?
I agree but I have the urge occasionally. I think a .308 is plenty for anything in the lower 48 but what fun is that? I just like guns! I only own one magnum rifle, a 350 Rem Mag. BOOM
I always thought that was a cool cartridge. How does it shoot?
Post by: colockumelk on February 10, 2009, 11:06:25 PM
I remember about 20 years ago when the 30-06 was considered the world greatest elk gun. Nothing could ever be better. Anything smaller was worthless. About ten years ago the 7mm and the .300 mag was considered the best elk gun in the world and anything smaller was pretty much worthless. In todays articles and on shows the .338 is considered the best elk gun and anything smaller is pretty much worthless and not nearly enough knockdown. What happened has our elk herds suddenly begun to grow kevlar fur coats? Why was my .30-06 powerfull enough in the 80's to kill an elk but today it's too weak? The answer is making more money but mostly it's because as guys we want more powerful and louder things. I think the main reason is that people are trying to over compensate for poor shot placement. Also we want the here and now. We want that animal to drop this second not run 50 yards and die.
If you talk to most guides they will recommend that you not get a magnum because they kick so hard that many people can not shoot them very accurately because they are scared of them. There are many stories I've read where guides told horror stories about guys who couldn't hit anything becuase they always flinched at the shot. Then when handed a .270 they dropped the first animal that came along. My neighbor has killed over 30 elk with his .270 and by todays standards it a far too weak gun to take elk hunting. Well I know of over 30 elk that would disagree. If I shoot a bull elk with my bow he wont go 50 yards if I hit him in the lungs. My bow has maybe 75 ft lbs of energy. Hell a .22 has more ft lbs of energy than that. People have forgotten the key to quick human kills. It's not having the most powerfull gun in the world it's about accuracy and what works best for you.
For deer and elk I would not recommend a magnum. Shoot what you can shoot more accurately. If that means you shoot a .300 mag then that's fine, but most people can't take that much gun. Now if I'm up in Alaska for bear or something then hell yeah I want a magnum. In fact I want a humvee mounted .50 cal. Just my :twocents:
Post by: lamar_hunter on February 11, 2009, 09:53:34 AM
Post by: woodswalker on February 11, 2009, 10:00:12 AM
Win 70, 30-06
Ruger 77 7x57
Ruger 77 257 Robts
R700HB .308 Win
Sako 22-250
If i could have ONLY one of them....the 30-06. If I can SEE it, I can HIT it.
Not that I dont PLAY with the mags....have 2 -300 WM, a 30-338 and a 300 H&H.... :yike:
Post by: Gutpile on February 12, 2009, 02:14:21 PM
Anyone else feel like there's waaaayy too much hype about a bunch of calibers that really aren't necessary? I think they just had to find a way to sell all of us more crap to fill up our cabinets.
Thoughts?
I agree but I have the urge occasionally. I think a .308 is plenty for anything in the lower 48 but what fun is that? I just like guns! I only own one magnum rifle, a 350 Rem Mag. BOOM
I always thought that was a cool cartridge. How does it shoot?
Sorry Wapitihunter, I didn't see the question earlier. I'm sure you've been checking several times a day to see my response. :chuckle: Anyways, it shoots great. With 225 grn partions it feels about like a 300 win mag. It's a mid range cartridge though. It really starts to fall off at about 250 yards. I've only shot one deer with it. I had a doe tag and put a beautifull stalk on this lone doe. Got to about 150-175 yards and put it down. Turned out to be a fawn :chuckle: :bash: :chuckle: :bash: . Anyways I bought it for bear and elk. Still havent shot an elk at all and didn't bring it this year on my bear hunt.
Actually, I really like the rifle it's a Remmy 673. (Very ugly to some folks). But it handles nice and I think it looks good.
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on February 12, 2009, 02:16:28 PM
Post by: Intruder on February 12, 2009, 03:03:59 PM
The reality is that many if not most of us cannot shot the difference between a lot of the guns at the ranges where those differences exist. The whole knock down power thing is so over hyped too. Knock down power is total BS.... there's no way to objectively quantify it. Energy, while it has some meaning, still doesn't give you an easy way to equate it to killing capacity. There have been a variety of scientific studies done on this subject. They're not real exciting reading but they do provide a lot of insight in this area. Bottom-line, killing stuff boils down to putting holes through or destroying vital organs. Energy dump, knock down power, etc. represent elements in good story telling and conversion more than elements of ballistics and killing animals.
Generally speaking a guy with a 30-06/280/270 can kill anything in N America (with the exception of maybe grizzly) out to 300 + yards with a well placed shot and a decent quality bullet. Magnums certainly have a place when it comes to some of the long range shooting but in reality that is a pretty small fraction of hunting scenarios.
Post by: bow-n-head on February 12, 2009, 06:03:06 PM
Post by: Curly on February 12, 2009, 08:54:54 PM
I agree whole heartily agree with the Subject. For the most part magnums are about as worthwhile as tits on a boar. That's coming from someone who shoots a 300 win mag 80% of the time.
Well said. I also shoot a 300 win mag most of the time and I really like the cartridge, but none of the elk or deer I've killed would have died any slower if I had shot them with a .308 Win. The farthest I've shot has been 310 yards and most have been under 200.
I think that when I originally bought the magnums, it was mainly because I didn't have a rangefinder and I figured that with a flat shooting magnum, I would have a better chance of hitting w/out knowing the exact distance. Rangefinders are a lot better now and cheaper than they were when I bought my magnums. Now, I have a rangefinder and I think a .308 might replace one of my .300 Win mags one of these days.
Post by: BlackTail on February 13, 2009, 02:10:37 AM
Anything you can do with a .338 Win you could probably do with a .300 RUM.
And anything you can do with a .300 RUM you could probably do with a .300 Weatherby.
And anything you can do with a .300 Weatherby you could probably do with a .300 Win.
And anything you can do with a .300 Win you could probably do with a 7mm RUM.
And anything you can do with a 7mm RUM you could probably do with a 7mm STW.
And anything you can do with a 7mm STW you could probably do with a 7mm Rem.
And anything you can do with a 7mm Rem you could probably do with a .30-06.
And anything you can do with a .30-06 you could probably do with a .270 Win.
And anything you can do with a .270 Win you could probably do with a .25-06.
And anything you can do with a .25-06 you could probably do with a .243 Win.
And anything you can do with a .243 Win you could probably do with a .22-250.
And anything you can do with a .22-250 you could probably do with a .223.
And anything you can do with a .223 you could probably do with a .204 Ruger.
And anything you can do with a .204 Ruger you could probably do with a .17 Rem Fireball.
And anything you can do with a .17 Rem Fireball you could probably do with a .17 Rem.
And anything you can do with a .17 Rem you could probably do with a .17 HMR.
And anything you can do with a .17 HMR you could probably do with a .22 Mag.
And anything you can do with a .22 Mag you could probably do with a .22 LR.
So, get a good .22 LR, load it up with some good bullets, and make sure you place your shots well. You're now good for any animal in the lower 48!!
(All in good fun :))
Post by: addicted on May 27, 2009, 04:59:40 AM
from- http://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm
W.D.M. Bell and His Elephants
By James Passmore
Walter D.M. Bell has become a legend among elephant hunters due to his great success in the ivory trade during the golden age of hunting in East Africa. He is known as “Karamojo” Bell because of his safaris through this remote wilderness area in North Eastern Uganda. He is famous for perfecting the brain shot on elephants, dissecting their skulls and making a careful study of the anatomy of the skull so he could predict paths of bullet travel from a shot at any angle in order to reach the brain. Using mostly 6.5mm and 7mm caliber rifles, he was an advocate of shot placement over big bore power for killing efficiently.
Modern writers on the internet and in magazine articles have tended to refer to him and his tally of elephants in this vein, “He shot many of his 1000 elephants with (such and such) caliber” or words to that effect. In fact, Walter Bell killed well over 2000 elephants in his career. Since most people refer to him for his small caliber prowess and his elephant tally I thought I would try and break it down, because there are a great number of people quoting what “Karamojo Bell” did or didn’t do and I have noted a common tendency in the last few years to play down what he did with small caliber rifles. Perhaps this is in direct relation to the resurgence in popularity of magnums and the larger safari rifles. Craig Boddington is quite apt to mention the "few hundred elephants" that Bell took. (Mr. Boddington, I believe, is an erstwhile heavy rifle enthusiast.)
Bell recorded all of his kills and shots fired. It was a business to him, not pleasure, and he needed to record expenditures.
He shot exactly 1,011 elephants with a series of six Rigby-made 7x57mm (.275 Rigby) rifles with 173 grain military ammo.
He shot 300 elephants with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54mm carbine.
He shot 200 odd with the .303 and the 215 grain army bullet.
He went to a .318 Westley Richards for a while, which is a cartridge firing a 250 grain bullet at about 2400 fps, but found the ammunition unreliable and returned to the 7mm.
He also recorded that one of the reasons why he favored the 7x57 was that the ammunition was more reliable and he could not recall ever having a fault with it. Whereas British sporting ammunition, apart from the .303 military ammo, gave him endless trouble with splitting cases.
The balance of his elephants were shot with this .318 and his .450/400 Jeffrey double rifle.
He wrote about being able to drop an elephant with a light caliber rifle if he shot it in the same place that he would have shot it with a heavy rifle.
It was unmentioned, but understood, that 7x57 ammunition cost a tenth the price of large caliber .450/400 Jeffrey cartridges and money is always a factor in business.
Just out of interest, I will mention that to judge ammunition expenditure and his own shooting, he calculated an average. He discovered that with the .275 (7x57mm) he fired an average of 1.5 shots per kill. This means that half the time he only needed one shot. That is a fair performance for such a large number of elephants killed and considering that it is common today to fire an insurance shot, anyway.
It is also interesting to note that, although Bell is the most famous proponent of using small caliber "nitro" rifles for large game, he did not discover the technique, nor was he its earliest advocate. Well known hunter Arthur Neumann, for example, had been shooting elephants with a .303 Lee Metford rifle for years before Walter Bell got into the business.
WDM Bell is forever associated with the John Rigby & Sons Mauser rifle and the .275 Rigby cartridge. ".275 Rigby" was the British designation for the German 7x57mm Mauser cartridge. This cartridge propelled a .284 caliber, 173 grain bullet at around 2300 fps and the bullets he used for elephant brain shots were full metal jacketed solids. He declared once that a soft point bullet had never sullied the bore of his rifle. It is interesting to compare these ballistics with what is commonly regarded as essential performance today.
The Rigby Mauser was just that, a Mauser action rifle in sporting configuration, half stocked and finely finished. The actions were made by the Mauser Company in Germany and Rigby had the rights to sell them in England. The Mauser action was the darling of the sporting world at the time and Bell was obviously a man who appreciated fine rifles; he bought the best. For most of his life, he was an advocate of the bead front blade and express rear sights. However, in later years he used an aperture sight as well as early telescopic sights. His last .275 Rigby rifle was sold by his widow (after his death in 1951) to the writer Robert Ruark, who later presented it to Mark Selby, son of the famous white hunter Harry Selby. A constellation of famous African names converged around the ownership of this rifle. Interestingly, it is a half stock, take down rifle with early telescopic sights and a trap made out of the grip cap to store cleaning gear.
Shot placement for the tricky brain shot on elephants required good marksmanship. Bell constantly practiced by dry-firing his rifle. He always carried his own rifle, eschewing gun bearers (another plus for the lightweight Mauser), and picked pretend targets of opportunity as he traveled, dry firing at a distant rock or bird. He believed that this was the single practice most beneficial to a hunter.
He was a great proponent of the bead foresight and it was his drawings, with which he illustrated his first book Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter, that explained to me how to use a bead front sight properly. You should hold the bead low in the notch so that your elevation is constant and open both eyes so that you can see through your hand and rifle with your non-shooting eye.
As a further example of marksmanship (if brain shooting a great many elephants isn’t enough), Bell used up the remainder of his unwanted .318 ammunition by shooting flying birds over an African lake. Spectators believed that he was using a shotgun and were amazed to find that he was actually using a rifle.
I will make the point that unlike many African writers (Peter Capstick jumps to mind), “Karamojo” Bell doesn’t seem to have been particularly threatened by an elephant, rogue or otherwise. Nor did he have to “turn a charge” or anything like that. The prose in his books has none of the trumpeting about the manly virtues of facing grisly death upon which Capstick built his writing career and that has been popular ever since Hemingway went on a couple of hunting trips. (Hemingway was disappointed when he shot a lion and it just died, and that’s all.)
A great many people have tried to explain away Bell’s elephant hunting success by asserting that he didn’t need to hunt in thick cover and could shoot elephants from long range, the implication being that somehow the behavior of African elephants must have been different back then. This is untrue, as any reader of his books will find. Mr. Bell hunted hard, walked thousands of miles, ran down elephants and was a very cool marksman at close range.
One does not walk down an elephant in uncharted African wilderness with a tool one regards as marginal and Bell had complete confidence in his ability to harvest elephants with the Rigby Mauser. It was his business and also his hide at stake, especially considering that the amount of money to be made was considerable. To put his efforts into perspective, he wrote of one day when he tracked and shot nine elephants. He estimated that he had earned 877 pounds sterling from the ivory harvested from those nine kills. After one expedition he returned with ivory worth over 23,000 pounds sterling. That was a vast sum of money and converted to today’s currency equivalent it would make your eyes water. One does not risk that kind of money and effort on a questionable caliber.
Walter Bell left Scotland a young adventurer obsessed with hunting, traveling to the North American Yukon territory to try to cash in on the gold rush and make his fortune. It did not pan out and he joined the Canadian forces sent to fight alongside the British in the Boer War in South Africa at the turn of the 20th Century. Taken prisoner at one point by the Boers, he later escaped. When the war was settled, he stayed on and bought his way into elephant hunting, outfitting his first safari on foot into East Africa. He later confessed that he had only joined the army in order to get to Africa.
Bell made himself into a successful elephant hunter not just because of his skill with a rifle, but also due to carefully maintained good relations with the local people in the territories through which he traveled. He was always ready with gifts for chiefs and kings; he bought hunting permission from them. One of his best ideas was to post a reward for any African who gave him information on the whereabouts of good elephants. He soon had a flood of elephant sightings coming in and he was as good as his word, readily paying for the information.
When the Great War (World War I) broke out, he became a pilot flying in Tanganyika (Tanzania). He was known for not flying with an observer, because the observer obstructed his view when he tried to shoot enemy planes down with his .450 elephant gun! He later served in Greece and Italy and was twice decorated.
After the War, Bell returned to ivory hunting, traveling by canoe into then uncharted African wilds after legendary herds of large elephants. He made his last expedition in the early 1920’s.
He retired to Scotland a wealthy man; there is no unhappy or overly dramatic ending to his story. He lived unscathed through all of his adventures to enjoy the wealth he had made with his rifle.
Except that, Mr. Bell was not your normal retired chap. He steps once more into history during World War II, sailing his yacht Trenchmare to the shores of Dunkirk in 1940 to help evacuate the besieged Allied forces from the beaches at the age of sixty.
Walter Bell spent his later years writing, practicing art and bird hunting on his Scottish estate. (One imagines with a fine "London best" double gun.) He created water color paintings and ink drawings of red stags in the Highland tussock as well as paintings of splendidly depicted elephants on the savannah, made with an eye for anatomical detail and an appreciation of the body language of the African elephant. He used them to illustrate his books.
He made it clear in his books what he would use if he returned to Africa. With a lifetime of elephant hunting behind him, he felt he could put his finger on the perfect caliber for the purpose. Strange as it may seem, it wasn’t his trusty 7mm Mauser. He seems to have matured and gone for a heavier rig. Any .30 caliber capable of sending a 250 grain bullet at about 2500 feet per second would do nicely as an elephant gun, thank you, old boy.
Post by: Pat/Rick on May 27, 2009, 04:34:17 PM
Post by: Pathfinder101 on May 27, 2009, 05:24:01 PM
IF HOWEVER, I get drawn for some hunt-of-a-lifetime elk hunt with a rifle, you can bet that's what I'll be carrying. Elk are hard to put down. And when I make my trip to MT for mule deer this November, I will have it in the pickup as my "backup" gun. It certainly is not pleasant to shoot however. I don't know what the hell my dad was thinking when he bought it. 90% of his hunting was for deer.
Post by: bow-n-head on May 27, 2009, 05:52:21 PM
Post by: Pathfinder101 on May 27, 2009, 07:54:54 PM
Elk are tough. If I am on a 700 lb bull at 300 yards, I would prefer a magnum.
Post by: h2ofowlr on May 27, 2009, 08:38:27 PM
The bench rest shooter made the short magnums popular due to flat shooting and distance. The .30-06 and .308 are sufficent for most most animals. I know guys still shooting .243's for big game. It's all about shot placement. Besides the short mags kick like a mule. Especially if you have a 6-1/2" A-bolt or along those lines.
Post by: Pat/Rick on May 27, 2009, 08:55:18 PM
Post by: jager on May 28, 2009, 02:14:37 PM
I'm sure all have their place and everyone has a preference.
It's been said a million times...It's all about shot placement.
I've shot both whitetails and bighorn with a 270 wsm. whitetails and axis with a 7mag, seemed a little much for the whities, nothing was over a 150 yards though. whitetails and cougar with a 30-30. Multiple one shot kills on deer, pronghorn and bears with a 6mm....100 gr. bullets.... Actually.... one of the longest shots I have taken on a big game animal was a couple years ago with the 6mm. A 263 yd shot on a bear. One shot. Clean kill.
All of theses calibers have done their job.
I'm kind of torn....bringing the 7mag and the 270 wsm to Montana this year for elk/ mulies...probably going to use the larger of the two. I bowhunt for elk so have never had the opportunity to use a rifle on them.
The mags aren't necessary for clean kills, in my opinion. I guess it's no different than any other product....something for everyone.
If you can shoot it well and you are comfortable with it....go for it.
Post by: Skinnyman on June 02, 2009, 01:55:42 PM
The only reason I can see using a magnum cartridge is for larger animals with thicker skin and heavier bone. Or if you are hunting at long ranges, which most people dont practice at enough to be proficient at, which then that leads ethical question (not the forum for that).
As a guy we like to have the biggest and baddest thing out there and be able to brag about, so I think that is where some of the magnums are getting momentum.
Post by: Ironhead on June 02, 2009, 08:49:57 PM
Post by: furbearer365 on June 02, 2009, 09:06:21 PM
Post by: Bean Counter on June 02, 2009, 09:25:58 PM
I am convinced that my -06 is capable of taking deer, elk, sheep, black bears, even moose. If I were going for some African game or grizzly bears, then magnums might be up for discussion.
Having purchased my first bow and taking the plunge into archery, taking shots at 300+ yards anymore just doesn't seem like a challenge or sporting. I hope I don't offend anyone with that statement, just to say that if I can't get within 200-300 yards with my 'aught six, maybe the animal deserves to get away.
If I ever buy more guns for hunting, it'll be a lighter caliber for coyotes to save on ammo costs, and maybe someday a muzzle loader.
Good chat.
:twocents:
Post by: ACCUBOND on June 02, 2009, 09:34:40 PM
Post by: cascademountainhunter on June 02, 2009, 09:47:25 PM
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on June 02, 2009, 10:11:04 PM
Now with my hot loads in the 06, and with my rangefinder, I see no difference, other than the 06 carries more ammo, chambers and extracts much better, and ammo is readily available if I run out of reloads on a trip (like that will happen). I find that cheap rem corelokt works in it as well. With the 7stw, it's a reloading game, with premium bullets.
For 80% of the time I don't think there's any difference between them, but that 20% of the time might be when a big buck stands up at an estimated 400 yards, with no time for me to get the fogged up rangefinder on him to work.
Post by: Buckrub on June 03, 2009, 04:40:14 AM
Energy is overrated? Energy is everything, why have a cal. law if energy were overrated.
Energy is weight x speed.
Without going into a long drawn out math class a shooter owes it to the game he hunts to know bullet limitations. A magnum may be overrated for most applications but better to be ethical than a shooter wounding an animal taking a shot outside a bullets capability.
I would rather see a new shooter with a magnum. Smaller caliber guns are better left to the shooters who get closer and are proficient with their gun.
I own many guns and each one has a application and a limit.
Post by: ICEMAN on June 03, 2009, 06:39:14 AM
I agree with this:
..... each one has a application and a limit.
Post by: Pathfinder101 on June 03, 2009, 06:52:57 AM
I would rather see a new shooter with the right gun. IMHO, a magnum can surely work to cause a new shooter to have issues....also they tend to be a bit heavy for many gunners?
I agree with this:..... each one has a application and a limit.
Agreed. I have a young lady that works for me who is about 5' tall and 120 lbs. Her ex-husband bought "her" a .300 Win Mag, then outfitted it with an HS Precision stock. The thing weighs almost 9 lbs. She kept it after the divorce (probably not exactly what he had in mind when he bought it I am guessing :chuckle:) and insists that she is going to hunt with it. She brought it to me last month and asked if I could "sight it in for her". She won't admit she can't shoot it. One of these days I am going to load up the whole office and head out to the gun club. We'll put her behind my .270 and see if she doesn't change her mind...
Post by: Tony 270WSM on June 03, 2009, 07:15:34 AM
...but this 7-08 has the energy to take a deer at 600 yards with half the recoil, (and elk at 350)
What load are you shooting??? Elk to 350? Don't know if reloads are a hell of a lot hotter than factory, but factory is only (roughly) 1500lbs @ 300 yards (and of course 350 would drop it more). Most suggest 1800-2000+ for elk.
Post by: Tony 270WSM on June 03, 2009, 07:27:35 AM
Most of the time a standard 30-06 will do more than we ever need it to. Occasionally it may be undergunned, but that would be in an extreme situation. The 270 is wonderful and I had one for a few years. Never felt undergunned, at all, for the deer I took with it. Didn't go for elk back then, but would have been happy to use it for that as well.
My short mag is great. Plenty of power, accurate, recoil isn't bad... I have no complaints about it. Should the need arise, it can certainly take elk to 400 yards, maybe even 500 if I were hunting around 5000 feet or higher. However, my average shot is under 200 yards so I certainly don't need it, but it is nice to have if I need the extra speed and power.
Where I think people go wrong, especially newbies, is going for the ultra style mags from the start. Too much gun, too soon, think all that power will kill. Well like many have said before, all that power means jack if you can't shoot it accurately. It was exactly like motorcycles. New kids to riding looked at all that power and thought the 1000cc bikes were what they wanted. Only they couldn't ride them, were scared to twist that throttle open, and rightly so. Knew more than a few who crashed from being unable to handle that power and seeing that "little" 600 pull away from them (me). I moved up to a liter bike a couple years later and damn was it fun. But at the time I had the experience to handle it. Same thing applies to shooting. Need the experience to handle those big calibers or else you have no business using them. But in the right hands, they can do great things and do have their place.
Post by: JoshT on June 03, 2009, 08:21:04 AM
Interesting posts on this subject,
Energy is overrated? Energy is everything, why have a cal. law if energy were overrated.
Energy is weight x speed.
Without going into a long drawn out math class a shooter owes it to the game he hunts to know bullet limitations. A magnum may be overrated for most applications but better to be ethical than a shooter wounding an animal taking a shot outside a bullets capability.
I would rather see a new shooter with a magnum. Smaller caliber guns are better left to the shooters who get closer and are proficient with their gun.
I own many guns and each one has a application and a limit.
Ummm... apparently you missed that long drawn out physics lesson!
Energy (Kenetic) = 1/2 mass x (velocity squared)
Momentum = mass x velocity
The most important evaluation of a cartridge's ability to kill intended game... is the ratio between Energy and Momentum.
Energy is important... but momentum is important too. If your round has a high energy to momentum ratio... like the 22-250... it will be prone to poor penetration... but will do a lot of damage to stuff the bullet doesn't actually touch (this is your "hydrostatic shock"). If you have a round with low energy to momemtum ratio... like a .44 Rem Mag... then it will typically penetrate will... but do little proximal damage to surrounding tissue (or "pencil through").
The classic example is the .22-250 vs. the .44 Mag... they have almost identical "energy" at the muzzle... but the .44 has much higher momentum due to the use of a projectile (mass) that's about 5x that of the 50 grainer typically fired in a .22-250. One will go end-long through an elk... the other is questionable on deer.
I own a big magnum (.300 RUM)... and the only thing that it does better than an '06... is shoot very high BC bullets with excellent velocity. The .300 RUM shooting 210 Bergers or something like that will pack as much energy (and more momentum) at 500 yards... than the old '06 can deliver at 100. For the guys who shoot everything inside 300 yards... you're absolutely correct... a 7/08 or naught'6 will work just fine. But, for the guys who like to stretch it out to 500-800-1000 yards... there is no replacement for displacement.
Post by: ICEMAN on June 03, 2009, 08:40:19 AM
[..... there is no replacement for displacement.
8)
Post by: addicted on June 03, 2009, 09:10:56 AM
- Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
- Put it up to eleven
- Eleven. Exactly. One louder
(all rights reserved by "this is spinal shot")
Post by: addicted on June 03, 2009, 09:19:14 AM
Post by: huntnphool on June 03, 2009, 10:22:34 AM
Quote
there is no replacement for displacement.
(https://hunting-washington.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10123/yeahbaby.gif)
Spinal Tap Addicted? ;)
Post by: Alchase on June 03, 2009, 10:27:15 AM
Interesting posts on this subject,
Energy is overrated? Energy is everything, why have a cal. law if energy were overrated.
Energy is weight x speed.
Without going into a long drawn out math class a shooter owes it to the game he hunts to know bullet limitations. A magnum may be overrated for most applications but better to be ethical than a shooter wounding an animal taking a shot outside a bullets capability.
I would rather see a new shooter with a magnum. Smaller caliber guns are better left to the shooters who get closer and are proficient with their gun.
I own many guns and each one has a application and a limit.
Ummm... apparently you missed that long drawn out physics lesson!
Energy (Kenetic) = 1/2 mass x (velocity squared)
Momentum = mass x velocity
The most important evaluation of a cartridge's ability to kill intended game... is the ratio between Energy and Momentum.
Energy is important... but momentum is important too. If your round has a high energy to momentum ratio... like the 22-250... it will be prone to poor penetration... but will do a lot of damage to stuff the bullet doesn't actually touch (this is your "hydrostatic shock"). If you have a round with low energy to momemtum ratio... like a .44 Rem Mag... then it will typically penetrate will... but do little proximal damage to surrounding tissue (or "pencil through").
The classic example is the .22-250 vs. the .44 Mag... they have almost identical "energy" at the muzzle... but the .44 has much higher momentum due to the use of a projectile (mass) that's about 5x that of the 50 grainer typically fired in a .22-250. One will go end-long through an elk... the other is questionable on deer.
I own a big magnum (.300 RUM)... and the only thing that it does better than an '06... is shoot very high BC bullets with excellent velocity. The .300 RUM shooting 210 Bergers or something like that will pack as much energy (and more momentum) at 500 yards... than the old '06 can deliver at 100. For the guys who shoot everything inside 300 yards... you're absolutely correct... a 7/08 or naught'6 will work just fine. But, for the guys who like to stretch it out to 500-800-1000 yards... there is no replacement for displacement.
Very well said, science trumps opinion every time.
Post by: Buckrub on June 03, 2009, 11:48:45 AM
Interesting posts on this subject,
Energy is overrated? Energy is everything, why have a cal. law if energy were overrated.
Energy is weight x speed.
Without going into a long drawn out math class a shooter owes it to the game he hunts to know bullet limitations. A magnum may be overrated for most applications but better to be ethical than a shooter wounding an animal taking a shot outside a bullets capability.
I would rather see a new shooter with a magnum. Smaller caliber guns are better left to the shooters who get closer and are proficient with their gun.
I own many guns and each one has a application and a limit.
Ummm... apparently you missed that long drawn out physics lesson!
Energy (Kenetic) = 1/2 mass x (velocity squared)
Momentum = mass x velocity
The most important evaluation of a cartridge's ability to kill intended game... is the ratio between Energy and Momentum.
Energy is important... but momentum is important too. If your round has a high energy to momentum ratio... like the 22-250... it will be prone to poor penetration... but will do a lot of damage to stuff the bullet doesn't actually touch (this is your "hydrostatic shock"). If you have a round with low energy to momemtum ratio... like a .44 Rem Mag... then it will typically penetrate will... but do little proximal damage to surrounding tissue (or "pencil through").
The classic example is the .22-250 vs. the .44 Mag... they have almost identical "energy" at the muzzle... but the .44 has much higher momentum due to the use of a projectile (mass) that's about 5x that of the 50 grainer typically fired in a .22-250. One will go end-long through an elk... the other is questionable on deer.
I own a big magnum (.300 RUM)... and the only thing that it does better than an '06... is shoot very high BC bullets with excellent velocity. The .300 RUM shooting 210 Bergers or something like that will pack as much energy (and more momentum) at 500 yards... than the old '06 can deliver at 100. For the guys who shoot everything inside 300 yards... you're absolutely correct... a 7/08 or naught'6 will work just fine. But, for the guys who like to stretch it out to 500-800-1000 yards... there is no replacement for displacement.
I didn't miss the physics lesson.
The average shooter doesn't need to know more than speed x weight = energy. Ballistic Coefficient plays a key role in speed.
The .06 @ 100 yds with 180 gn. Nossler Partition muzzle velocity@ 2700 fps. = 2508 Ft. Pounds Energy.
Your 300 UM @ 500 yds with 200 gn Nosler Partition muzzle Velocity @ 3025 FPS = 1916 Ft. Pounds Energy.
A 30 Cal is a 30 Cal. wether it is an UMag or .06, BC is the same for either one. The only difference would be speed which equates to energy and trajectory ( bullet drop ).
How does your Magnum 30 Cal. shoot a higher BC than an .06?
Post by: Buckrub on June 03, 2009, 12:14:13 PM
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/remington_shoot_ballistics_software.asp
Here is the actual calculator for energy
Energy Calculator
This tool will help you estimate the energy of your favorite cartridge. If you are unsure of which bullet weight and/or velocity to submit, use the information from our on-line ballistics tables above.
Example: The muzzle energy of a 300 Remington Ultra Mag 180gr Core-Lokt Ultra bullet propelled at 3250 feet per second is determined using the follow formula:
M x V2 ÷ 450400 = foot pounds energy.
Step 1: Multiply M (M = bullet weight in grains) times V2 (V2 = the square of bullet velocity in feet per second): 180 x 3250 x 3250 = 1,901,250,000
Step 2: Divide the product of step 1 by 450400: 1,901,250,000 ÷ 450400 = 4221 foot pounds of energy.
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on June 03, 2009, 01:14:06 PM
Post by: JoshT on June 03, 2009, 01:22:24 PM
A 30 Cal is a 30 Cal. wether it is an UMag or .06, BC is the same for either one. The only difference would be speed which equates to energy and trajectory ( bullet drop ).
How does your Magnum 30 Cal. shoot a higher BC than an .06?
A .30 cal is a .30 cal... but velocity is also velocity... the additional 300-400 fps that a RUM will get you... is worth it to those that can use it... but it don't mean squat to those that still haven't figured out what a turret is for on a rifle scope.
You can shoot the same bullet out of the ole'06... but no where near the velocity. A 210 Berger at 3100 is a whole different animal than one at 2700. Sorry I missed the velocity on the '06 by 100fps... so, it's the same at 400 yards not 500. Meaning... the 300 RUM gives you 300 yards more range than the naught'6... if you're skilled enough to take advantage of it. For those that aren't... shoot a smaller round.
Post by: JoshT on June 03, 2009, 01:23:17 PM
I think I'm gonna buy a 585 Nyati for bucks and bulls....
No you wouldn't... it's not a Weatherby.
Post by: GoldTip on June 03, 2009, 01:26:38 PM
- Most blokes only have rifles in 30.06 so your at the top at ten and then where do you go?
- Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
- Put it up to eleven
- Eleven. Exactly. One louder
(all rights reserved by "this is spinal shot")
Nice use of a Spinal Tap quote, not sure I could have figured out to work it in in this conversation, but Kudo's to you!
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on June 03, 2009, 01:28:12 PM
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on June 03, 2009, 01:29:31 PM
I think I'm gonna buy a 585 Nyati for bucks and bulls....
No you wouldn't... it's not a Weatherby.
You coming down tomorrow? Give me a jingle, it's beer 30'.
Post by: JoshT on June 03, 2009, 01:30:19 PM
I did call you... answer you damn phone.
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on June 03, 2009, 01:55:33 PM
Post by: Chopaka81 on June 03, 2009, 02:51:22 PM
However - I just received back from my gunsmith a new build. It is a accurized Rem M700 and has a 30" fluted varmit taper barrel, chambered in 300 RUM. The barrel has a drilled perminate muzzle brake. The recoil is about the same as my Tikka T3 Lite in 270 WIN and the muzzle blast is "authoritive." :chuckle:
I am working on developing a reload using US869 pushing a Hornady 208g A-max. One friend is pushing a 240g SMK to 3100 fps in his factory M700 LSS.
My hope is push a 208g A-max to 3200fps which would yield 32 moa come-ups @ 1400 yds (and traveling > 1500 fps) with +3moa high @ 100 yds.
If I were to attempt that with a 308 it would be sub-sonic (and unstable) at 1400 yds.
FWIW My brother's factory 300 rummy is pushing Nosler 180gr BT @ 3400fps using RL25.
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on June 03, 2009, 02:55:40 PM
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on June 03, 2009, 02:59:22 PM
Post by: jackelope on June 03, 2009, 03:04:06 PM
Post by: JoshT on June 03, 2009, 03:30:49 PM
I agree with what has been said regarding newbies starting out with a basic cartridge. Nothing wrong with that - a lot have game has been put in the freezer with 243's & 308's. God forbid I say anything bad about a 30-30.
However - I just received back from my gunsmith a new build. It is a accurized Rem M700 and has a 30" fluted varmit taper barrel, chambered in 300 RUM. The barrel has a drilled perminate muzzle brake. The recoil is about the same as my Tikka T3 Lite in 270 WIN and the muzzle blast is "authoritive." :chuckle:
I am working on developing a reload using US869 pushing a Hornady 208g A-max. One friend is pushing a 240g SMK to 3100 fps in his factory M700 LSS.
My hope is push a 208g A-max to 3200fps which would yield 32 moa come-ups @ 1400 yds (and traveling > 1500 fps) with +3moa high @ 100 yds.
If I were to attempt that with a 308 it would be sub-sonic (and unstable) at 1400 yds.
FWIW My brother's factory 300 rummy is pushing Nosler 180gr BT @ 3400fps using RL25.
I run the 210 Berger with 93.5 grains of Retumbo for 3100 and some change in a factory 26" Sendero .300 RUM. My buddy runs the 208 AMax with 95 grains of Retumbo and gets a tad over 3200 in the exact same gun. Both have the DE Break and shoot in the MOA range all the way out to 1k.
US869 is a kick ass powder for the 240 SMK... I've had them up to around 3000 using around 102 grains I believe... recoil is stout! I shot some of the 210s and 208s with US869... but couldn't get the accuracy that Retumbo provides... and the loads with US869 seemed a bit dirty. I think that powder really needs the heavier projectiles and stout charges to burn clean.
Post by: Huntbear on June 03, 2009, 04:05:30 PM
there's a 577 t-rex for sale at the campfire right now if any of you are interested. only wants 5 g's for it. it needs a bigger recoil pad for me though. i'm a sissy.
That is a wimpy gun, I need something bigger!!!! After all I shoot such long ranges. I need something at 6000 fps, and .70 caliber!!!!!!! :bdid: :bdid:
Post by: JoshT on June 03, 2009, 05:14:33 PM
Post by: JoshT on June 03, 2009, 05:18:11 PM
there's a 577 t-rex for sale at the campfire right now if any of you are interested. only wants 5 g's for it. it needs a bigger recoil pad for me though. i'm a sissy.
I think the second guy in the video is Jud?
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EVqT3XEzss[/youtube]
Post by: JoshT on June 03, 2009, 05:20:17 PM
I'll find me a 378 or 460, have the bolt face opened up, put a new snout on it, be a hellava antelope gun too...
Or... you could man-up and build it in a TC Encore... like this guy!
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lzri8dn7p0&feature=related[/youtube]
Post by: FrankDown on June 03, 2009, 05:32:37 PM
Post by: Pathfinder101 on June 03, 2009, 07:54:13 PM
I'll find me a 378 or 460, have the bolt face opened up, put a new snout on it, be a hellava antelope gun too...
Or... you could man-up and build it in a TC Encore... like this guy!
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lzri8dn7p0&feature=related[/youtube]
hmmmm... the gun club I shoot at doesn't have to have a sign to remind us to "Aim Every Shot". Based on the sign AND the video I think perhaps this is a range for the functionally retarded.
Post by: haugenna on June 03, 2009, 08:25:04 PM
I agree with what has been said regarding newbies starting out with a basic cartridge. Nothing wrong with that - a lot have game has been put in the freezer with 243's & 308's. God forbid I say anything bad about a 30-30.
However - I just received back from my gunsmith a new build. It is a accurized Rem M700 and has a 30" fluted varmit taper barrel, chambered in 300 RUM. The barrel has a drilled perminate muzzle brake. The recoil is about the same as my Tikka T3 Lite in 270 WIN and the muzzle blast is "authoritive." :chuckle:
I am working on developing a reload using US869 pushing a Hornady 208g A-max. One friend is pushing a 240g SMK to 3100 fps in his factory M700 LSS.
My hope is push a 208g A-max to 3200fps which would yield 32 moa come-ups @ 1400 yds (and traveling > 1500 fps) with +3moa high @ 100 yds.
If I were to attempt that with a 308 it would be sub-sonic (and unstable) at 1400 yds.
FWIW My brother's factory 300 rummy is pushing Nosler 180gr BT @ 3400fps using RL25.
Chopaka,
Tell your bro to try some Retumbo. It is less temp sensative than the RL 25. I squeezed out a little more velocity to. 100.2 grains with a 180 BT was right around 3460fps. Check out my post on "300 RUM Sharing of Data"
Post by: Antlershed on June 03, 2009, 09:19:21 PM
Post by: G.R.K on June 03, 2009, 10:50:09 PM
Post by: JoshT on June 03, 2009, 10:57:22 PM
Hey Josh, do you know off hand what the BC of those 208 A-Max's is?
They list them at .648... but out of both our Senderos they work out to more like .700... at least that's how my drop figured out to 1K. The Bergers also clock out a little higher than the .625 they have them listed at... more like .675.
Post by: G.R.K on June 03, 2009, 11:29:06 PM
Post by: JoshT on June 04, 2009, 12:51:54 AM
B.C's are great on paper,it's all about trigger time.Temp/elevation/humidity/play a hugh role in the game. :twocents:
I've run a couple hundred rounds downrange in the last year with the RUM... I've found the higher BC bullets tend to be a little less effected by the above list. Out to about 8oo I haven't found the effects of temp & humidity to be a problem at all... at least not enough to worry about. Shot angle seems to be the trickiest aspect of LR shooting... other than wind of course. But... you're correct about trigger time... it's the only way to figure that stuff out.
Post by: haugenna on June 04, 2009, 08:25:54 AM
I noticed in a past thread that you were sending a scope into leupold for turrets. I am doing the same with my RUM. Any advice? I am using the 180 BT's b.c. of .507.
Can you explain trigger time as well?
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on June 04, 2009, 08:41:53 AM
Post by: huntnphool on June 04, 2009, 09:12:33 AM
Quote
Can you explain trigger time as well?
Repetition is the mother of all skills!!!
Post by: Huntbear on June 04, 2009, 11:01:24 AM
My first rifle was a .308. I killed lots of deer and a few elk and they all died quickly. Then came the day I will never forget. I came out of a patch of timber to a 1000 acre clearcut, and there was the bull elk guys dream about, a huge 6x6 Rosie. Quartering away from me at 350-400 yards. No way to get closer, I sat and watched him walk away from me. I hunted that bull for a week and never saw him again. The next week, I bought my Sako .338 WM. Never will I have to watch a bull like that walk away again.
Smaller calibers are great, and I own several non-magnums. .308, 7mm-08, 257AI, and others, but when it comes to elk, bear, moose, etc... I want the knock down power of those 210 gr. Partitions at 400 yds. if the need arises.
That being said, there is no substitute for practice at all ranges you may shoot at, and learning where to put the bullet. (To me that means a minimum of a hundred rounds a summer) If you can not hit what you are shooting at, then you need to quit hunting with a rifle. If a magnum beats you up to bad, and you feel you have to shoot one, first make sure it fits you right, then add a good recoil pad and a muzzle brake. Otherwise, just shoot the biggest non magnum you can handle, and KNOW your limitations. Wounding animals due to bad shots is not just unethical it is morally wrong, and it should be avoided at all costs. :twocents:
Post by: JoshT on June 04, 2009, 03:33:07 PM
Josh,
I noticed in a past thread that you were sending a scope into leupold for turrets. I am doing the same with my RUM. Any advice? I am using the 180 BT's b.c. of .507.
Can you explain trigger time as well?
Get the turret installed... then go out and shoot a drop chart. If you want me to send you a basic chart to get started, I can do that pretty easily. Don't rely on the chart though... you need to shoot your data, and record your adjustment. I keep a laminated card on my stock that gives me my elevation corrections (in inches) all the way to 1200 yards in 50 yard incriments (25 yards after 1k). I range, I dial, I check the wind, and I send it... pretty easy actually. Wish it would have worked out a Jud's today... but with a hot barrel and only partially sighted in 7 mag... I couldn't hit a milk jug a 500... I think I scared it though!
Card for the 180 NBT at 3400 would look like this (assuming 100 yard zero):
300 = +2.5
350 = +3.5
400 = +4.5
450 = +5.5
500 = +6.5
550 = +7.75
600 = +8.75
650 = +10.0
700 = +11.5
750 = +12.75
800 = +14.25
850 = +15.75
900 = +17.5
950 = +19.25
1000 = +21.0
If you range the target at 750... you just dial the turret up 12.75"... check you wind... hold the crosshairs dead on... and fire away. If the range is 825, then dial in 15" (or one complete revolution of a Leupold turret)... and bombs away.
It's a concept that takes 5 min to learn... and hundreds of rounds to master. Also... shoot in the field... not just at the range. Off the bipod... across a canyon... down hill, up hill... in the wind etc. That's the only way to find out how accurate YOU are... not just you shooting system and your drop/wind data.
Here's a little video that Jamieb made on using turrets... it's excellent info. Jamie is probably the best shooter under field conditions that I've ever shot with... he shoots a lot up in the canyons and knows his schitt... heed this advice.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v376/elkhunter/?action=view¤t=turretvideo.flv
Post by: haugenna on June 04, 2009, 06:45:52 PM
Does that limit you to one bullet/elevation? I was thinking about buying two turrets, one for 1000K feet and one for 5000k feet.
Thoughts?
Post by: JoshT on June 04, 2009, 07:03:02 PM