Hunting Washington Forum

Equipment & Gear => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: Bearhunter on March 03, 2015, 12:51:11 PM

Title: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Bearhunter on March 03, 2015, 12:51:11 PM: I am in the Market for a new Carbon rifle and would like to hear everyone's opinion on who is manufacturing the most accurate and quality built Carbon Fiber rifle these days. My opinion is that Christensen Arms was the pioneer of the Carbon fiber rifle and the aerospace world and many others have tried to follow suit but are they building to the highest standards as Christensen does???? Thanks guys!
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: MtnMuley on March 03, 2015, 03:24:28 PM: I have a Christensen Carbon Custom One 700 Ti action 300RUM that I'd sell. Text me if you're interested.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: xXLojackXx on March 03, 2015, 07:33:40 PM: Benchmark Barrels makes their own carbon wrapped barrels. And of course they can build a whole rifle with one. They're really nice barrels and you know it'll be a tack driver.

Christensen on the other hand, has a LOT of negative reviews on accuracy with their rifles. I wouldn't spend $3500 on a rifle that there's a good chance it won't shoot at least 1/2 MOA.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: kentrek on March 03, 2015, 07:50:29 PM: I've owned a carbon extreme for 6 years now and absolutely love it, while it's not a full custom it's pretty accurate for its weight....i love the balance of the rifle the most

At the great American show I got to fondle the summit line and don't really dig the new drop mag...it seems to be right where I try and Cary it

i have no intention of ever replacing this rifle. ..and if I ever bought or built another rifle it would be nearly exactly the same
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Biggerhammer on March 03, 2015, 11:27:47 PM: Quote from: xXLojackXx on March 03, 2015, 07:33:40 PM
Benchmark Barrels makes their own carbon wrapped barrels. And of course they can build a whole rifle with one. They're really nice barrels and you know it'll be a tack driver.

Christensen on the other hand, has a LOT of negative reviews on accuracy with their rifles. I wouldn't spend $3500 on a rifle that there's a good chance it won't shoot at least 1/2 MOA.

I completly agree.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Rob on March 04, 2015, 06:12:05 AM: I just got a 300 blackout barrel by proof. They were SLOW to get it to me, but it looks to be a good barrel. I have not had a chance to test it for accuracy yet.

The order process was frustrating as they promised it to me in 2-3 weeks, but then sighted accuracy concerns and an associated re-design which put it out to 10-11 months instead.

It is pretty though, can't wait to do some more shooting. 6 lb AR including optics.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Bearhunter on March 07, 2015, 11:35:33 AM: Thanks guys for the replys. Rob why did you choose Proof over Christensen?
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Alchase on March 07, 2015, 12:05:35 PM: Quote from: Rob on March 04, 2015, 06:12:05 AM
6 lb AR including optics.

That is my Holy Grail! :hello:
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: HawkCreek on March 07, 2015, 11:27:12 PM: What about Extreme Rifle Works? I have no experience with them only wondering if anyone has any experience.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: kentrek on March 07, 2015, 11:44:02 PM: They all are going to make quality rifles....the big thing to know is what style of carbon was used for the barrel..both styles have applications in the gun world...one for riding heat and the other for making the barrel stiffer

Look into the theories an pick which one you think holds more merit towards what youl be using it for
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Rob on March 08, 2015, 10:53:06 AM: Quote from: Alchase on March 07, 2015, 12:05:35 PM
Quote from: Rob on March 04, 2015, 06:12:05 AM
6 lb AR including optics.

That is my Holy Grail! :hello:

I was shooting for 5, but happy with 6. I could probably shave a few more ounces, but I would be sacrificing some feature I want.

Wrt why proof over Christianson.. No real good reason other that a recommendation from a friend to try Proof for a CF barrell
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: mountainman on March 09, 2015, 09:01:46 AM: Quote from: xXLojackXx on March 03, 2015, 07:33:40 PM
Benchmark Barrels makes their own carbon wrapped barrels. And of course they can build a whole rifle with one. They're really nice barrels and you know it'll be a tack driver.

Christensen on the other hand, has a LOT of negative reviews on accuracy with their rifles. I wouldn't spend $3500 on a rifle that there's a good chance it won't shoot at least 1/2 MOA.

The Christiansens I have owned an others I have shot, have all shot particularly well, especially the Lapua's. Proof are good also. Beware of newcomers to the barrel wrap process...more to it then j y st thinning a tube and wrapping in..
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Reidus on March 09, 2015, 09:27:16 PM: If I was going to buy a carbon wrapped barrel, I would go with a proof. I believe they have a better resin that transfers heat better than the other manufactures. They claim the resin that they use transfers heat better than copper, stainless or carbon steel. Their barrels are also very tough. On the other hand, I haven't quite figured out the benefit of a carbon barrel. You're not gaining any accuracy whatsoever. Carbon fiber and steel have vastly different thermal expansion coefficients. Steel grows when heated and carbon fiber does to a much lesser extent. I looked pretty hard into buying one.

Carbon fiber barrels look pretty cool and are a neat idea, but I don't see any functional advantage. Just go with a smaller contour barrel and I'll bet you can achieve the same accuracy and weight at much cheaper cost. Proof barrels run about $900 for a blank the last I checked.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Biggerhammer on March 09, 2015, 09:39:30 PM: I have a good friend that has a doctorate in Aero Space Engineering. Didn't take long to convince me that carbon fiber barrels were more of a gimmick than a credit to the hunting/shooting world.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: xXLojackXx on March 09, 2015, 10:48:16 PM: :tup:

Carbon barrels significantly reduce overall barrel weight, depending on barrel countour and the amount of steel you csan afford to remove. Also, they draw heat AWAY from the INSIDE of the barrel. There have been numerous studies that prove that.

If you're interested in them for weight reduction, they cost about $100 more per ounce of reduced weight.

If you see value in having a barrel that transfers heat away from the rifling, then figure out if its worth it to you of not.

If you want a "cool" looking barrel for an extra $600, then buy me one while you're spending your money.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Reidus on March 10, 2015, 10:31:06 AM: Could you post a link to a study that shows how carbon barrels draw heat away from the barrel?

I know that proof uses a resin that transfers heat really well but carbon fiber with no resin is an insulator. If they do transfer heat really well they should feel colder to the touch than a standard barrel. The better a material transfers heat the colder it feels on a cold day. (The feeling of foam vs steel in 32 deg weather.) I just haven't figured out how they transfer heat so well but don't feel cold to the touch.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Reidus on March 10, 2015, 10:35:46 AM: Here's what gunwerks says about the barrels they have proof wrap for their carbon model.

"The heart of any rifle is the barrel. In this configuration, we are using our standard stainless steel barrel, but it is turned to a half inch in diameter and shipped to Proof Research to have it wrapped with their proprietary carbon wrapping process under patent number 6,889,464. We are not chasing weight, in fact a properly fluted barrel is only 2 oz heavier. We are after the fastest effective heat transfer possible, unlike conventional carbon wrapping, with the right resin matrix, this carbon wrap moves heat 22X’s as fast as steel."

http://www.gunwerks.com/Shooting-Systems/carbonX (http://www.gunwerks.com/Shooting-Systems/carbonX)
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Biggerhammer on March 10, 2015, 11:06:42 AM: I need to find a article I read years back that proved carbon fiber barrels didn't do what they claimed. They pointed out the fact, testing them on a prairie dog hunt. They came to the conclusion that a standard barrel was better suited for repeated shooting.

They put a heat sensor on the outside of a standard barrel and a heat sensor under the carbon fiber wrap against the thinner turned down steel barrel. Their conclusion was, that the thinner steel of the turned down barrel under the carbon wrap heated up much quicker than a standard thicker non carbon wrapped barrel and the carbon couldn't reduce the heat fast enough to prevent excessive throat erosion on the hot barrel under the carbon wrap as compared to a standard barrel which could distribute heat much better and keep the complete barrel/core cooler with the same amount of shots as the carbon fiber barrel.

Now just for a standard hunting rifle I could understand the carbon fiber idea, weight being the major factor. But for heat disipation for sustained fire. 10, 20, 30 shots strings a standard barrel with fluting was proved to stay cooler over all than a carbon wrapped barrel with the way thin barrel core. Just because you can't feel as much heat on the outside of a carbon wrapped barrel after 20 shots doesn't mean that the thinner turned down barrel at its core isn't smoking hot!

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FFullSizeRender_zpscbad0a8f.jpg&hash=232a5e0aae53bc34bea91e5e3ad023101629dc41) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/landonmoses/media/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender_zpscbad0a8f.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: b23 on March 10, 2015, 12:18:31 PM: I've read quite a bit about CF wrapped barrels over the years and from everything I've read, how well the actually dissipate heat, has everything to do with the direction the fibers lay and how they are wrapped as well as the resin used. If not done properly, CF will act as an insulator and it'll actually hold the heat in.

I believe PR uses the same process ABS used to use and ABS produced good stuff.

Are they worth the $900 price tag, only the person writing the check can determine that. I don't think you have to spend $900 on a CF wrapped barrel, which is double what a fluted conventional barrel cost, to build a light weight rifle but if that's your thing and you want to, go for it, after all, it's your money, spend it however you want.

If I were going with a CF wrapped barrel Proof Research would be my only choice.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on March 10, 2015, 04:34:57 PM: Hmmmm , the way I figure it, if they were so great, Ida had one by now... Grin
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Bearhunter on March 14, 2015, 12:44:55 PM: Thanks for all the great info guys there is a wealth of knowledge and experience on here, I love it! Gonna order a Christiensen I believe!
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: mountainman on March 14, 2015, 01:28:55 PM: Quote from: Bearhunter on March 14, 2015, 12:44:55 PM
Thanks for all the great info guys there is a wealth of knowledge and experience on here, I love it! Gonna order a Christiensen I believe!
awesome choice! What model/caliber?
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: xXLojackXx on March 14, 2015, 01:54:52 PM: My choice from Christensen would be this TFM in .300 WM. A 9lb scoped rifle is perfect in my opinion.
Only rifle they make with a 1/2" guarantee.

http://www.christensenarms.com/products/bolt-rifles/tfm-tactical-rifle/ (http://www.christensenarms.com/products/bolt-rifles/tfm-tactical-rifle/)
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Reidus on March 19, 2015, 01:30:41 PM: I'm curious to know if they hold their half moa guarantee. Some companies base their accuracy guarantee on a single three shot group which does not mean much to me. Go shoot 5 five shot or 3 shot groups and then average your group size. I'm guessing most guns won't meet the accuracy that the manufacturer claims if you do this.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: mountainman on March 19, 2015, 06:46:26 PM: Big variable being who's driving the gun...😄 seriously, the Christiansens along with test barrels I've had made easily met that mark. ..
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Bearhunter on March 23, 2015, 08:55:35 PM: I think I have narrowed it down to the Carbon Summit w/thumbhole stock, titanium muzzlebreak and possibly a titanium action in either the 7mm or 300RUM. xXLojackXx the summit is a 1/2 MOA or better rifle as well, either way they build one hell of a fine rifle. Shot a buddies over the weekend and it did not shoot or feel like a 7.5 rifle all rigged, I was very impressed with the recoil management, smooth tight action and crisp break over on the trigger this was one of there older model rifles as well. The Thumbhole stock has a great feel to it as well, any pros and cons to the Thumbhole? Heres the direct link to the rifle Im thinking about ordering. Let me know what you guys think! http://www.christensenarms.com/products/bolt-rifles/carbon-summit-rifle/ (http://www.christensenarms.com/products/bolt-rifles/carbon-summit-rifle/)
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Bearhunter on March 23, 2015, 09:08:07 PM: Id love to see some of you guys CA rifles post up some pics on this thread if you get a chance. Lance thanks for the offer Im sure you have a beautiful gun but Im leaning towards a new rifle!
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: xXLojackXx on March 23, 2015, 09:09:38 PM: Whats MSRP on these rifles? Looks like its what you're after. I personally don't like thumbholes. When I shoot a rifle, the thumb in my trigger hand gets rested on the side of the grip, not around it. That eliminates torque on the stock and can play a big factor in long range shots. People that wrap a thumb around the grip or through a thumbhole sometimes have problems with left to right accuracy.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: MtnMuley on March 23, 2015, 09:26:44 PM: Sounds like you got 'er dialed in. I leaned heavy on the 300 RUM when I started buying LR guns, but now I'm not so sure I wouldn't rather have the 7's. As far as thumbholes, I'd say they are a plus. When shooting at an animal on the "hike", they are a huge plus for me. They get everything tucked in stabilizing an off hand shot. When dialed in shooting prone, I don't use the thumbhole, and rest my trigger hand as normal. Works fine for me. Most critical thing I notice when shooting a Christensen is to get your heartbeats and breaths down. They are definately not as forgiving as most LR rifles, but are worth every penny carrying around.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: kentrek on March 23, 2015, 09:54:47 PM: Quote from: Bearhunter on March 23, 2015, 09:08:07 PM
Id love to see some of you guys CA rifles post up some pics on this thread if you get a chance.

Just realized I didn't get my rifle in a single trophy photo this year....Il a few up from the last couple years tho
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: h2ofowlr on March 23, 2015, 10:08:11 PM: Anthon has the Christensen Arms one in .300 win mag. Borrow his and shoot it. He might sell it to you.
Title: Re: Proof Research or Christensen Arms???
Post by: Bearhunter on March 27, 2015, 02:59:22 PM: MSRP on the gun I posted above is $3950 for a stainless action and $4660 for the Titanium. This guns are now all Christensen in house machined parts were as the older guns were built off of your specified action. I like the fact that everything is machined in house which makes for one fine fit and finished firearm!!! Thanks for the pics, keep them coming!