Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 24, 2015, 02:32:09 PM
How ironic that some of the groups involved in this lawsuit are also currently involved in a lawsuit to halt Wildlife Services from removing wolves in Washington. Meanwhile, wolves and caribou are comingling and the they have been identified as the #1 source of mortality. I really have to question the motives of the groups involved in the critical habitat lawsuit. If saving the last remaining caribou was really their top priority, I would think they would be looking for more realistic and immediate ways to do that. At the current rate of decline that population will be GONE by the end of this decade.
Post by: luvmystang67 on March 24, 2015, 02:38:49 PM
Post by: Special T on March 24, 2015, 05:30:28 PM
http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2015/mar/24/endangered-selkirk-caribou-critical (http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2015/mar/24/endangered-selkirk-caribou-critical)
How ironic that some of the groups involved in this lawsuit are also currently involved in a lawsuit to halt Wildlife Services from removing wolves in Washington. Meanwhile, wolves and caribou are comingling and the they have been identified as the #1 source of mortality. I really have to question the motives of the groups involved in the critical habitat lawsuit. If saving the last remaining caribou was really their top priority, I would think they would be looking for more realistic and immediate ways to do that. At the current rate of decline that population will be GONE by the end of this decade.
You know the answer so my response is rhetorical...
Its Because they DON'T care about the animals! Its about Control! These groups seek to limit multiple use land bay every method possible. There are places that are left "Pristine" and mostly untouched by man, they are called National Parks! Go, and enjoy them. I would be all for curtailing all human activity if the insanity was just confined to these places....
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on March 24, 2015, 07:22:55 PM
http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2015/mar/24/endangered-selkirk-caribou-critical (http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2015/mar/24/endangered-selkirk-caribou-critical)
How ironic that some of the groups involved in this lawsuit are also currently involved in a lawsuit to halt Wildlife Services from removing wolves in Washington. Meanwhile, wolves and caribou are comingling and the they have been identified as the #1 source of mortality. I really have to question the motives of the groups involved in the critical habitat lawsuit. If saving the last remaining caribou was really their top priority, I would think they would be looking for more realistic and immediate ways to do that. At the current rate of decline that population will be GONE by the end of this decade.
You know the answe so my responce is retorical...
Its Because they DON'T care about the animals! Its about Control! These groups seek to limit multipal use land bay every method possible. There are places that are left "Prisitne" and mostly untouched by man, they are called National Parks! Go, and enjoy them. I would be all for curtailing all human activity if the insanity was just confined to these places....
ALL about control!! :yeah:
Post by: timberfaller on March 25, 2015, 09:31:12 PM
Post by: wolfbait on March 26, 2015, 07:54:22 AM
http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2015/mar/24/endangered-selkirk-caribou-critical (http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2015/mar/24/endangered-selkirk-caribou-critical)
How ironic that some of the groups involved in this lawsuit are also currently involved in a lawsuit to halt Wildlife Services from removing wolves in Washington. Meanwhile, wolves and caribou are comingling and the they have been identified as the #1 source of mortality. I really have to question the motives of the groups involved in the critical habitat lawsuit. If saving the last remaining caribou was really their top priority, I would think they would be looking for more realistic and immediate ways to do that. At the current rate of decline that population will be GONE by the end of this decade.
You know the answe so my responce is retorical...
Its Because they DON'T care about the animals! Its about Control! These groups seek to limit multipal use land bay every method possible. There are places that are left "Prisitne" and mostly untouched by man, they are called National Parks! Go, and enjoy them. I would be all for curtailing all human activity if the insanity was just confined to these places....
ALL about control!! :yeah:
The Habitat Push!
I think we have covered this before on H-W, the only difference, it is the environmental groups instead of WDFW, biologists etc.
Post by: luvmystang67 on March 26, 2015, 08:30:38 AM
Call me ignorant... but that makes the most sense to me.
Post by: bobcat on March 26, 2015, 08:49:46 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 26, 2015, 09:22:11 AM
The caribou are part of a genetically distinct population that extends into Canada. The numbers throughout their range are declining, not just in the US portion. It's important to maintain these small herds for genetic exchange and because (IMO) its the right thing to do.
Caribou are unlikely to return to a huntable population in some of our lifetimes, but that is the ultimate goal for recovery. It's shameful that hunters are turning their back on this species. Where would elk (or bison, deer, turkeys...) be in North America if hunters had responded like this when their populations were critically low?
Post by: bobcat on March 26, 2015, 09:29:05 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 26, 2015, 09:31:10 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 26, 2015, 09:49:09 AM
Wolves are recognized as the main source of mortality, The caribou population was on an upward trend until wolf recovery
Post by: luvmystang67 on March 26, 2015, 09:49:36 AM
It doesn't look like the BC/Alberta herds are necessarily doing great and it does look like that population is perhaps different enough from other woodland populations to warrant protection, but perhaps it'd be better to give that money to Canada, rather than protect the southern-most tip of their range here.
Part of me wants the wolf lovers to boil in their own dilemma and deal with the consequences they've created for themselves. There's no real plausible deniability on in this scenario, wolves are directly the cause in the recent decline and I don't think a fragile population of woodland caribou and wolves can coexist in the Selkirk region.
So, given that I now think its a lost cause for them (personally), I kind of wish the wolves would just get on with it and chomp the remaining few to put the final nail in that coffin.
However, then the enviro-nuts would probably transplant a population and start the whole process over again, and they wouldn't even have the claim that they were a distinct subspecies anymore. They should plant these things in the olympic national park instead... no wolves there, might do better.
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 26, 2015, 09:51:11 AM
Post by: bobcat on March 26, 2015, 09:58:15 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 26, 2015, 10:26:05 AM
I don't see how it can be blamed on the wolf plan. The wolves, yes. But a written document? The wolves will eat the caribou no matter what the wolf plan says.
Because the plan is outrageous in its limits, we're unable to manage them, regardless of their affect on any ungulate, including the woodland caribou. The dispersion requirements may take years to achieve and once those are met, another three years waiting period. This is all in addition to the onerous 15 breeding pair/pack minimum statewide, which is so large as to boggle the mind, especially when the plans of other, larger and more rural states are considered. It's not just the wolves, but the width and breadth of the wolf plan which will kill the woodland caribou. We should rightfully be hunting them now and there'd be a chance of protecting the woodland caribou if we were able. Unfortunately, they are doomed by the parameters of the plan.
Post by: bobcat on March 26, 2015, 10:28:03 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 26, 2015, 10:38:10 AM
Even with a year around hunting season on wolves do you think people would kill enough to make a difference with that caribou herd? I don't.
We'd at least have the ability and the WDFW would be able to manage them, as well. Presently, they have no authority to kill wolves who aren't presenting a threat to humans or livestock. The wolves could kill every one of the caribou tomorrow and there's nothing the WDFW would be able (or want) to do about it. This is the same helpless feeling of the ranchers in the NE corner. They should be able to shoot every wolf they see on sight to discourage them from being too bold around man. They'd never come close to threatening that population, but it would definitely give the wolves something to think about.
Post by: buglebrush on March 26, 2015, 10:49:31 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on March 26, 2015, 11:02:46 AM
These caribou spend 95% of their time in Canada. I know one of the guys who fly and tracks them. It is most definitely not about the caribou.And they are hunted in Canada, right? That would seem to strongly support Bobcats point.
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 26, 2015, 11:07:41 AM
These caribou spend 95% of their time in Canada. I know one of the guys who fly and tracks them. It is most definitely not about the caribou.And they are hunted in Canada, right? That would seem to strongly support Bobcats point.
Or with pressure in Canada and none in WA, the wolves stay over here when pressured by BC gunners/hunters. This will be especially true with the Canadians declaring war on them in BC. It's too bad our WDFW and Wildlife Commission don't coordinate with BC to save the caribou. But, the caribou are the collateral damage of the outrageous wolf plan.
Post by: buglebrush on March 26, 2015, 11:16:05 AM
And if you don't think the retarded wolf plan isn't concentrating wolves in the NE corner when they gave hunting pressure just across the border you are nuts.
Post by: jackelope on March 26, 2015, 11:27:57 AM
These caribou spend 95% of their time in Canada. I know one of the guys who fly and tracks them. It is most definitely not about the caribou.
I know of a guy who flies and tracks them too...he might actually be reading this right now....
:chuckle:
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 26, 2015, 12:08:13 PM
Post by: Special T on March 26, 2015, 07:19:56 PM
Honestly, I also have to say I don't really care about a few caribou in the NE corner of the state, that we can't hunt and which almost nobody ever sees. I wish they would stop wasting money on studying them, and trying to save them. There are plenty of caribou north of the border.
I would only agree if they used that same logic on wolves. I HATE the ESA because it takes logic out of the issue.
Post by: Special T on March 26, 2015, 07:22:42 PM
:yeah:
Wolves are recognized as the main source of mortality, The caribou population was on an upward trend until wolf recovery
If wolves are the main problem and hunters are fighting wolves then HOW ON GODS GREEN EARTH have hunters abandoned them?
Post by: wolfbait on March 26, 2015, 08:04:16 PM
I disagree.
The caribou are part of a genetically distinct population that extends into Canada. The numbers throughout their range are declining, not just in the US portion. It's important to maintain these small herds for genetic exchange and because (IMO) its the right thing to do.
Caribou are unlikely to return to a huntable population in some of our lifetimes, but that is the ultimate goal for recovery. It's shameful that hunters are turning their back on this species. Where would elk (or bison, deer, turkeys...) be in North America if hunters had responded like this when their populations were critically low?
:yeah:
Wolves are recognized as the main source of mortality, The caribou population was on an upward trend until wolf recovery
If wolves are the main problem and hunters are fighting wolves then HOW ON GODS GREEN EARTH have hunters abandoned them?
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 27, 2015, 03:56:27 PM
Post by: Special T on March 27, 2015, 05:15:33 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 28, 2015, 08:41:50 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 29, 2015, 07:06:58 AM
They haven't killed many in the caribou recovery area and they I don't think they have killed any in the specific area that holds caribou. Hunters are not supporting caribou recovery- financially, politically, or by hunting wolves
Hunters? We're not allowed to hunt wolves and you're wrong about us not supporting caribou financially or politically. Do you think it's tree-hugger money being spent on the caribou program? Because, it's not. It's USFWS using PR funds.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 29, 2015, 10:05:05 AM
BC government, tribes, and state of Idaho are spending quite a bit of money, but advise from some license dollars there is no actual hunter support.
There are no hunting groups politically supporting it, there are few individual hunters supporting recovery through. I think that's unfortunate. Its likely due to the idea that protected land or species are useless to the hunting community.
Post by: Special T on March 29, 2015, 06:24:16 PM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on March 29, 2015, 06:49:05 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 30, 2015, 01:56:46 PM
Post by: luvmystang67 on March 30, 2015, 02:14:20 PM
Remember that country is also winter habitat for caribou. We don't allow people to run through mule deer and elk winter range, we shouldn't for caribou either. I understand your argument, but its not valid in that area. Wolves can be hunted in most of that area in the winter, just not in the very high areas on snowmobile.
Don't worry, the wolves will only be in that area until the food is gone anyway. With 15 left in the herd, the wolves should be out of the area within a few years. :chuckle:
Post by: Special T on March 31, 2015, 07:35:10 AM
Remember that country is also winter habitat for caribou. We don't allow people to run through mule deer and elk winter range, we shouldn't for caribou either. I understand your argument, but its not valid in that area. Wolves can be hunted in most of that area in the winter, just not in the very high areas on snowmobile.
Your argument is circular in logic. Hunters arent doing anything to help caribou. They cant shoot or trap them in them in Wa. In ID they have shot and trapped them (or attempted to). Hunters have pushed to open hunting in the NE portion of the state. Gov on the other hand has done everything in its power to prevent the taking of wolves. They Keep an area closed despite the fact that the ESA does not apply to the NE. They restrict travel in it (snow mobiles).
How is it that hunters dont help caribou? If its because they are EXTREMELY skeptical of some state or federal program Id say its justified... You still havent given the solution that Hunters have passed over.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 01, 2015, 07:29:36 AM
If a hunting group wanted to help caribou they could do a few things:
Strongly support an aggressive wolf collaring effort in the region. That means support through $, not facebook petitions or other lip service.
Support the closures in the portion of the caribou habitat that need the protection and make a meaningful argument for re opening the areas that are unlikely to have caribou activity. This means we need to be willing to "throw the book" at offenders.
Logging and habitat protections are in place. We should continue to protect the habitat while maintaining industry.
Make meaningful noise (not on HuntWa....make noise to legislators and top brass) regarding wolf densities in the caribou recovery portion of NE Washington. Again, we need to find funding to support some actual work. Conservation groups are good at putting some money on the ground to get research they need to support their position. Hunters have not done that at all. (since the 1980's anyway).
Those are some pretty easy starting points for hunters to engage in a more meaningful way.
Post by: bearpaw on April 01, 2015, 11:59:58 PM
But, I'm sorry, how can hunters help take wolves if access is removed in N Idaho and if we can't even hunt them in WA. Lack of access is the reason wolves are untouched by hunters in the caribou area of N Idaho, they can't get to them. Quit trying to take away all the access if you want help for caribou!
During the wolf plan process I wrote numerous letters regarding the damage wolves would do to caribou and they all fell on deaf ears because all the promoters of wolves really didn't care about caribou. If you want to point fingers at least point them in the right direction.... Olympia and wolf groups!
Those are the people who did nothing to help caribou and did everything to hurt caribou.
Post by: buglebrush on April 02, 2015, 12:09:15 AM
I will point out that there are hunters/trappers I know of that are hunting wolves in the Priest lake area.
But, I'm sorry, how can hunters help take wolves if access is removed in N Idaho and if we can't even hunt them in WA. Lack of access is the reason wolves are untouched by hunters in the caribou area of N Idaho, they can't get to them. Quit trying to take away all the access if you want help for caribou!
During the wolf plan process I wrote numerous letters regarding the damage wolves would do to caribou and they all fell on deaf ears because all the promoters of wolves really didn't care about caribou. If you want to point fingers at least point them in the right direction.... Olympia and wolf groups!
Those are the people who did nothing to help caribou and did everything to hurt caribou.
Totally agree.
Post by: Special T on April 02, 2015, 07:35:34 AM
If a hunting group wanted to help caribou they could do a few things:
Strongly support an aggressive wolf collaring effort in the region. That means support through $, not facebook petitions or other lip service.
Make meaningful noise (not on HuntWa....make noise to legislators and top brass) regarding wolf densities in the caribou recovery portion of NE Washington. Again, we need to find funding to support some actual work. Conservation groups are good at putting some money on the ground to get research they need to support their position. Hunters have not done that at all. (since the 1980's anyway).
The only way I would Open My wallet is to give $ to hire an experienced wolf trapper not a WDFW Biologist. The department has already determined that this option isnt PC so its not possible. I do not trust the WDFW's agenda on wolves so I will not give them any extra $ for it if they control it. It is tactical political maneuvering to say that more money is needed yet decline the largest pool of cash available, that cattlemen association willingness to hire at THIER expense an experienced trapper and a WDFW bio could ride along to collar and take samples... (because they dont think they trust or can train a trapper to weigh take pictures and get a hair/blood sample)
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 02, 2015, 08:20:24 AM
I will point out that there are hunters/trappers I know of that are hunting wolves in the Priest lake area.I know there are trappers and hunters working the PL area. A very good friend of mine has taken six wolves this year, but they are not in the caribou recovery area. That area is too far up for most people to be interested in trapping. The issue with access is not having much of an impact on sportsman. The closure area is designed to minimize snowmobile play areas in the cirques that caribou use. That plan is being addressed soon and will be more practical south of the border.
But, I'm sorry, how can hunters help take wolves if access is removed in N Idaho and if we can't even hunt them in WA. Lack of access is the reason wolves are untouched by hunters in the caribou area of N Idaho, they can't get to them. Quit trying to take away all the access if you want help for caribou!
During the wolf plan process I wrote numerous letters regarding the damage wolves would do to caribou and they all fell on deaf ears because all the promoters of wolves really didn't care about caribou. If you want to point fingers at least point them in the right direction.... Olympia and wolf groups!
Those are the people who did nothing to help caribou and did everything to hurt caribou.
You're right about some of the conservation groups not having helped much either. There are some groups doing very meaningful projects in Canada, but not many here, aside from lip service and activism. Hunters have not even engaged at that level. That's why I am frustrated with the lack of hunter support. As a group, we have not engaged in the plan to support a caribou population.
Post by: bearpaw on April 02, 2015, 10:20:29 AM
I will point out that there are hunters/trappers I know of that are hunting wolves in the Priest lake area.I know there are trappers and hunters working the PL area. A very good friend of mine has taken six wolves this year, but they are not in the caribou recovery area. That area is too far up for most people to be interested in trapping. The issue with access is not having much of an impact on sportsman. The closure area is designed to minimize snowmobile play areas in the cirques that caribou use. That plan is being addressed soon and will be more practical south of the border.
But, I'm sorry, how can hunters help take wolves if access is removed in N Idaho and if we can't even hunt them in WA. Lack of access is the reason wolves are untouched by hunters in the caribou area of N Idaho, they can't get to them. Quit trying to take away all the access if you want help for caribou!
During the wolf plan process I wrote numerous letters regarding the damage wolves would do to caribou and they all fell on deaf ears because all the promoters of wolves really didn't care about caribou. If you want to point fingers at least point them in the right direction.... Olympia and wolf groups!
Those are the people who did nothing to help caribou and did everything to hurt caribou.
You're right about some of the conservation groups not having helped much either. There are some groups doing very meaningful projects in Canada, but not many here, aside from lip service and activism. Hunters have not even engaged at that level. That's why I am frustrated with the lack of hunter support. As a group, we have not engaged in the plan to support a caribou population.
Quite frankly the Wildlife Commission turned their nose away from Caribou. The problem lies with WDFW!
Most hunters I know support having caribou, but we are frustrated with WDFW and the Commission regarding their outright avoidance of addressing wolf impacts on caribou. If you want to see some help for caribou I think you need to address WDFW. Their love affair with wolves is the problem, change must happen there first!