Post by: Muleyman27 on April 06, 2015, 08:18:21 AM
Post by: rtspring on April 06, 2015, 08:36:50 AM
Absolutely love it..
Get comfortable shooting it, always find the same anchor point.
Big one! Drawing to shoot targets does not even come close to drawing when a big animal is in front of you.. I got the shakes bad first few times..
Enjoy, its is very addicting..
Post by: Special T on April 06, 2015, 09:35:00 AM
Post by: Torrent50 on April 06, 2015, 11:26:41 AM
Post by: Redbeard on April 06, 2015, 11:32:50 AM
Make sure your draw weight is low enough for you to shoot more than a few arrows. You can increase draw weight later.
Learn to make simple repairs on your equipment yourself. You might find great satisfaction doing that
And practice, practice and practice
Post by: mburrows on April 06, 2015, 11:47:37 AM
Dont let a big box store tune ur bow, ever. Im not all that seasoned compared to most but my buddies and i learned this the hard way. :twocents:
Post by: bhawley76 on April 06, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
Post by: 4fletch on April 06, 2015, 05:26:51 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 06, 2015, 05:50:37 PM
#1 - Too much draw weight. As Redbeard said, "You can increase draw weight later!" You have enough troubles to avoid and worry about right now. Struggling to draw the bow just makes it harder to work on those important things. It doesn't reflect on the way the pretty girls see you anyway, so no reason to go He-Man just yet. ;)
#2 - Balance, balance, balance - It's almost impossible to balance with your bow at full draw unless you have the bow out over your toes and your shoulders are over your hips. Too often newbies stand at a right angle to the target. Then they fall back and place the shoulders over the right hip in an attempt to compensate for the bows weight extension.
Close your eyes when at full draw and concentrate on your feet. You should feel even pressure/weight on both feet. Weight should concentrate forward on the foot and not all on the heal. This means you should find a comfortable position with your shoulders over the hips and your chest open to the target a bit. At release the string should immediately leave your body and not need to travel around it. This will also reduce the chance of hitting your arm with the string too!
Post by: coachcw on April 06, 2015, 07:25:06 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 06, 2015, 07:47:54 PM
I tell people to find a anchor with eyes closed and practice it, open eye and peep should be right there, grip don't open hand and use your sight level . Aim small
Allow hand to naturally wrap around grip, but do not grab grip or open your hand. Grip is probably responsible for more L/R errors than anything else when starting out.
Should also mention that it is ok to mess up and be wild on occasion when starting out. Nothing wrong with that - it's all part of learning! Just try to remember what the shot felt like and what you think you did when this occurs. Sometimes we can learn more from what we do wrong than we can from what we do right.
Post by: coachcw on April 06, 2015, 08:10:33 PM
Post by: theslice on April 07, 2015, 02:22:48 PM
Also to contribute to the tips, I have found Nuts and Bolts Archery to be really helpful reading material (PDF in first post)
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1399457 (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1399457)
Post by: Becky on April 07, 2015, 02:24:41 PM
Some great information in this thread that RadSav graciously took the time to type out.
Post by: Band on April 07, 2015, 02:51:29 PM
As a fellow new archer, I have a question. Where do most of you practice? I tried going to a local range, but going multiple times in one month gets expensive quick.Make your own archery range on the closest public land you can find where you'll be able to shoot safely without interference from unseen people walking through. I have a range I set up about a mile away that has yardage increments marked up to 80 yards. I load up my target and gear about 3-4 times a week to go practice at my own range.
Just yesterday I built a new range to 40 yards in the woods directly across the street from my house so when I'm practicing at shorter distances I'll only need to walk my target and bow across the street now.
You'll find that practicing several times a week year around will help build your skills and keep them sharp.
Post by: Special T on April 07, 2015, 05:02:47 PM
As a fellow new archer, I have a question. Where do most of you practice? I tried going to a local range, but going multiple times in one month gets expensive quick.
Also to contribute to the tips, I have found Nuts and Bolts Archery to be really helpful reading material (PDF in first post)
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1399457 (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1399457)
When your first starting shooting at 10 yards everyday for a doz or 2 arrows is great. You don't need to shoot at long distances when you first start short distances are better for 2 reasons. You need to develop the smaller muscles in your back and shoulder. Add that to the fact that you are trying to find a comfortable consistent anchor point. Small changes have big impact changes. There are lots of great practice drills including shooting with you eyes closed that can be done at short distances. When i first started I shot a big bag target in my basement at 8 yards. I know lots of people that bought a BIG bag target and screwed a couple pices of 3/4" plywood the back of thier garage and shot 2 doz arrows each day inside thier garage.
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 07, 2015, 06:38:32 PM
Post by: Redbeard on April 07, 2015, 06:56:14 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 07, 2015, 10:32:28 PM
In Tri-Cities you might try Kennewick Ranch and Home. Or drive to Walla Walla and see Steve's Archery. I'm sure there are others, but those are the two I know have been good in the past.
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 08, 2015, 07:44:43 PM
Depends on where your hips are and how open your shoulders are to the target when you try to reach anchor. But likely Redbeard is right in that you are too short.
In Tri-Cities you might try Kennewick Ranch and Home. Or drive to Walla Walla and see Steve's Archery. I'm sure there are others, but those are the two I know have been good in the past.
Yea I got my bow at kennewick ranch and home I'm going to attempt to change my draw length myself tonight. Doesn't look too hard. I measured my draw length and it came out to 30.4 and my bow is set at 30" my bow only goes to 30.5" so I hope it works out good
Post by: bowtechian on April 09, 2015, 11:34:59 PM
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 10, 2015, 06:40:26 PM
Post by: Special T on April 10, 2015, 10:18:28 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 11, 2015, 01:20:28 AM
Hard to tell about draw length with that jacket on and shooting so steep down hill. Does look like you have some tension in your draw arm/forearm, tension in the bow hand and some weight forward. But, from those pictures I can not tell for sure if it is the angle, the draw length or a combination of factors. Definitely nothing that jumps out and screams, "Stop Everything!!!" Just a few minor adjustments and you would be in pro form :tup:
I am assuming you are not using the sling just to show the arm and hand better for pictures :dunno: That is a good idea! I have to remember that when I ask guys to send me pictures in the future. Shows a bit too deep of grip and a little too much tension. It seems odd, but the muscles in both the draw arm and the bow arm should be relaxed when shooting. That means the hands and wrist too! We can lock the shoulders and use back tension consistently, but we can not maintain muscle tightness consistently. It changes with the weather, physical fatigue and our particular mood on each given day and in each given situation. We want to shoot on a rigid yet relaxed platform. Sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it? As odd as it sounds it can be done...the human body is an amazing thing!
I think it would be a bit premature for me to advise any further based on these pictures. If we could see another picture or two that might go a long way. I'd like to see a picture of you shooting at a target that is at chest to eye level. Would also be helpful if you were shooting in a short sleeved t-shirt. Ideally I would also like to see a picture taken from above and behind you...maybe the cameraman/camerawoman could stand in the back of the pickup and take a picture looking over your right shoulder, straight down the line of the arrow. I'd really like to see a picture of your feet from that angle too!
If I were you I would be feeling very confident in my possibilities. You look really good so far! Much better than I was expecting :tup:
Post by: coachcw on April 11, 2015, 06:01:29 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on April 11, 2015, 06:23:48 AM
Post by: coachcw on April 11, 2015, 08:16:08 AM
draw looks a bit long to me and that bow :bash:I agree that's a quick adjustment , I like the corner of my mouth and tip of nose .
Post by: RadSav on April 11, 2015, 01:39:09 PM
Rav missed the Slippers ! lack of a stabile platform throws you all off !
I noticed that first thing. Those are great :chuckle: Good way to find your weight distribution on gravel :tup:
Draw length does look long at first glance. Then you see what looks to be a rather bent bow arm and weight forward disproportionate to the shot angle and I'm not so sure. That was why I felt it was premature to say anything just yet. I was much more concerned with the draw arm not being in line with the arrow.
Assuming bow arm is correct and weight is correct in distribution to the downward shot the second point of reference could be made easily by raising the peep sight. Peep may be too low and anchor may be too high. So if the anchor was to drop/peep raised to a point where the arm levels out draw length might very well be just right. :dunno:
Elbow can be too low even when draw length is correct. You see it a lot with new archers who are using the arm to maintain back tension and not the back. Gripping the release too tight in fear of it slipping off can cause much the same issue. With all the tightness in the platform all interpretations are open until we get clearer data.
Just need a few more pictures to tell the whole story. But I am very encouraged by what I see!
Post by: bigbeamhunter on April 11, 2015, 02:53:55 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 11, 2015, 04:24:09 PM
Then I started looking at multiple pictures and looking past the point where the nose met the string. Sure both arms were in line with the arrow - should mean proper draw length. But after review I noticed tension in the left shoulder. Then I noticed balance was a little back of center. Then I noticed the arrows insert was behind the plunger hole...This bow was WAY too long!! Almost 1" too long.
The pictures also made it appear as though I was getting into the grip too heavy. I took at least a dozen pictures and they all looked like my grip was wrong. But, this is a Bear... The grip is so rounded that I was into it proper. Same grip placement on a great PSE grip and pictures look just fine. Just an illusion and a dumb goofy grip/riser on this bow. Nothing some Bondo and a wrap could not fix! ;)
Instead of placing the factory mark at 28.5" I ended up setting to the factory 28" marks (a full 1" shorter than previous). I then lengthened the D-Loop by 1/4". Suddenly the left shoulder relaxed, my balance centered, the string contacted much less of my fat face and finding a second reference point was unnecessary as it seemed to find me! The right forearm still stayed level with the arrow. My anchor still remained familiar. But those 80 yard groups immediately shrunk by half.
Some times it takes a good bit more than just a glimpse of a single picture to really analyze everything. Even after all these years I still screw the pooch on my own bows and make assumptions without all the data.
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 11, 2015, 04:35:12 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 11, 2015, 05:08:22 PM
I will try to add some marked up pictures as soon as the server stops crashing every time I try to post. Maybe this evening.
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 11, 2015, 05:52:40 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 11, 2015, 06:27:33 PM
Getting out of the grip a little will give you some back. We can add a little to the D-Loop and that should give some back as well.
Post by: bowtechian on April 11, 2015, 06:51:39 PM
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 11, 2015, 07:35:42 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 11, 2015, 08:27:40 PM
I'm still getting some connection failures so I'm still going to wait until later to mark up those photos. Should get to it tonight, though.
In the mean time we could probably check the true draw length of the cam/bow. Have someone stand beside you while you are at full draw. Once you are solid against the back wall of the draw cycle have that person mark your arrow at the center of the plunger/rest mounting hole. Then measure from where the string contacts the arrow nock to that mark. If the you are getting 30.5" of draw length that measurement should be 28.5". On most bows that would be 28.75", but the Carbon Knight riser has the plunger/rest hole back from the saddle of the riser's grip about .5"
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2015, 12:11:58 AM
Your head is good and square to the target. It's important that the string finds it's place on your face. If you have to reach for it there will be tension and inconsistencies. You probably could raise your chin a small amount and get that string to the tip of your nose. But this looks like a good natural position so all looks really nice right now. If we need to adjust a small amount later we know it is going to be a minor adjustment.
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2015, 12:15:21 AM
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2015, 12:24:16 AM
When I draw a line from toe to toe there is a nice angle open toward the target. This creates a nice triangle between the grip, the shoulders, the anchor point and down the arrow to the grip again. This brings the arrow directly into the body instead of needing to go through or around anything. It also pulls the forearm away from the string which saves on interference and those nasty cherries!
If you need to later on we can gain a little in draw length by opening up just a little more. But, unless you are getting string contact with the forearm it looks pretty nice so far!
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2015, 01:28:48 AM
I may be wrong, but I believe this is pro Jesse Broadwater. Notice how he maintains shoulders level/parellel to the arrow. Both the left arm and the right forearm are nearly perfectly inline with the arrow. Quite the feat on such a steep angled shot! Also notice that even though the angle requires his spine to bend his weight is still centered and distributed as close to evenly between both feet as I've ever seen on a shot like this.
When you have form like this...the only thing stopping you is the space between your ears. ;)
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2015, 01:54:40 AM
In this picture you can see that your head is sitting over the instep of the left foot. Consequently, the majority of your weight is on the left foot. There will be almost no change in your draw length by finding an even balance, but you will never find complete stability in your platform unless you can find the balance of weight. At this point if you were to try and shoot steep down hill your right foot could come completely off the ground. I don't shoot so well on one foot, how 'bout you? :chuckle:
This is where those slippers would really come in handy! Close your eyes while at full draw and concentrate on your feet. Weight should be equal on both feet and pressure should be very close to the center of your arches. Too far on your heals and you will lose balance. Too far on you toes is better than your heals, but you will still lose some balance. Your body should be a pillar. Straight, rigid, balanced and at rest.
You are not too far off. This should be an easy adjustment for you.
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2015, 02:40:26 AM
When you draw the bow back your body tends to collapse shoulders forward into almost a "U" shape. When we reach full draw we want to straighten this out. This can not be done with the arms. It must be done with the back. The nice thing about using the back is it allows the arms and shoulders to relax falling to some degree while maintaining just enough strength to keep the bow drawn and the anchor in place. Best way I can describe it is to try and push your chest forward/shoulders back by touching your shoulder blades together.
In your case that should allow the string tension to pull your forearm straight. This makes your right forearm an almost straight extension of the arrow from rest to elbow. Imagine a rope tied to your elbow on one end and to your arrow rest on the other end. After a point you can not use your upper arm strength to draw that rope tight. At that point all the upper arm and shoulder can do is move the elbow up or down. The back, however, can rotate that elbow back pulling the rope straight.
Sometimes guys with big guns have a hard time getting that forearm to go completely straight. The compression required to flatten between the bicep, pronator and flexor can often exceed what the stress of the bow can accomplish. So with your strong muscular build it may be impossible to get a completely straight line between the elbow and the arrow. Do the best you can while keeping the muscles loose. You should be able to get close enough if you just relax. Tight muscles are unstable and unreliable so let the back do the work and give the arms a break.
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2015, 03:00:28 AM
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2015, 03:13:58 AM
As your elbow comes around and the back straightens you will no longer need to move your face over to the string. This should allow you to get the head back on top of the spine. Again this means balance and a relaxed vertical pillar.
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2015, 03:49:00 AM
This should bring the wrist down and forward slightly. From what I see for you that might be as much as 1/2"! All pressure should be evenly placed on the entire length of the Thenar meat of the thumb (Venus). This will require you to rotate the elbow of the left arm out and up allowing the heal (blue circle) to also rotate to the left.
When placed correctly on the bow you will never need to grip the bow. It is near impossible to grip the bow the same day in, day out, morning, noon, and night. But, if you allow the bow to grip you that can be done the same every time as the force of the bow is a constant and the crease is a natural place for that edge to settle.
In this picture you will want to rotate the red line to intersect with the green line.
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2015, 03:52:22 AM
Best of luck, hope this helps.
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 12, 2015, 06:51:16 AM
to start out I haven't hit my forearm yet so lets hope it doesn't happen. but I have hit myself in the face drawing back and accidentaly hitting the release before full draw haha. when I am leaning foreward I am doing that on purpose because I thought I needed to! so that should be an easy fix. and I see what u mean about using your back because your right I use all the muscles I draw back with to hold at full draw like my forearm bicep shoulder instead of relaxing and using my back!! and I see where I need to place the bow in my hands now deffinetly very comfortable resting on that line between thumb and palm im gonna go outside in a bit and practice and have my wife take sum more pics to see if im doing it right. and do u think I need to lengthen the d loop still? or change my form first and see if that helps? im going to write down a checklist of all of these things and go over them before I shoot so I can get proper form down everytime!! thanks again for all your tips I feel like I could shoot for years and not shoot well without proper form so form to me is important and I want to start out doing it the right way.
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 12, 2015, 07:05:37 AM
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2015, 03:14:39 PM
We had her set up with an Airbow for practice. For the first 23 days she never shot an arrow. We went through all the motions and mechanics of shooting with her eyes closed. Once the mechanics of shooting were ingrained properly we moved on to aiming...still no arrows shot.
Then the day came almost two months later. We hit the range with arrows in the quiver ready to have some fun. And what fun it was!!! She was awesome! 20 then 30, then 40, then 50...she was better than me! And she liked that just a little too much >:( >:( :chuckle:
I still take some time each year to get back to basics and work on form. It's really shocking how fast I can develop bad habits after a year of being lazy. I try to make sure the first dozen arrows are shot without any concern for where I group. Just concentrate on the mechanics and form. Then I take a snack break and try to make that first arrow count. I will shoot a dozen arrows one trip to the target at a time. Shoot one, pull arrow, change yardage, shoot one, pull arrow. If I feel I still need some work it's back to five yards and my eyes closed. I myself find it fun, but wouldn't expect that to be for everyone.
Post by: RadSav on April 12, 2015, 03:32:22 PM
It's likely to be really darn close! So let's work through these things first and then worry about d-Loop and multiple reference points as we move along. Don't shoot a lot of arrows as you don't want to fall into some bad habits while we wait. But shoot enough to begin feeling comfortable with the changes before we evaluate for the next step.
This is sort of fun, isn't it?
Post by: GBoyd on April 12, 2015, 06:45:30 PM
Thanks for the time and information you've put into this thread. It will give me something to think about when I'm practicing tomorrow. I'm planning on having someone take pictures so I can see how I am on all the points you've mentioned.
This thread inspired me to go get a lesson too and I learned a lot. Excellent advice for other beginners.
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 13, 2015, 06:04:51 AM
Post by: bowtechian on April 15, 2015, 02:10:27 PM
Post by: Torrent50 on April 15, 2015, 06:55:30 PM
Just a thought to give the mental part of it some attention to go with all the hard work you are putting into the physical part.
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 15, 2015, 09:42:50 PM
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 16, 2015, 09:18:42 AM
Post by: h20hunter on April 16, 2015, 09:27:02 AM
Post by: Todd_ID on April 16, 2015, 09:47:20 AM
I was wondering if I sight in my bow sights drawing 60# will the pins be off when I change it to 70# draw weight for hunting!?Your point of impact does change for many different reasons based on the simple rules of physics. But don't worry yourself about the nuances of bows until you've got 10 years under your belt.
Your idea of turning up your bow for hunting is a bit troubling in my mind. You absolutely must be able to draw that bow at the critical time with as little motion as possible. You're personally a big enough man to be able to pull off a 70 pound draw weight: I'm not. I can shoot 70 or 80 pounds day in and day out on my range at home, but I wouldn't want to try it when I have a bull at 15 yards, in the snow, at 4 below. The test each archer needs to prove/pass is to sit in a chair, lift your feet off the floor, and draw the bow as if you were going to shoot straight where the chair is pointing. If you have to much movement affiliated with the draw, then you need to lower the draw weight.
Post by: rtspring on April 16, 2015, 10:16:20 AM
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 16, 2015, 11:00:20 AM
Post by: Band on April 16, 2015, 12:18:38 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 16, 2015, 12:31:45 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 17, 2015, 05:21:34 AM
As far as draw weight...the elk won't care if you shoot them at 60 or 70. Just as long as you shoot them in the right spot. Heck, my wife kills them at 50 and 60 yards shooting 25.5" arrows at 50# and they die just as quick as mine do. All about what you shoot best.
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 17, 2015, 07:50:32 AM
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 29, 2015, 01:32:23 PM
Post by: Band on April 29, 2015, 06:31:13 PM
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 29, 2015, 07:26:43 PM
Post by: LeviD1 on April 29, 2015, 07:49:34 PM
My knocks won't twist
Unless your knocks are glued in they should twist. They are meant to be removable. Knock your arrow on your string and grab yours arrow and try to twist it then. Or just be careful not to hold to tight and use plyers on the knock to try and twist it.
Post by: Muleyman27 on April 29, 2015, 08:44:50 PM
Post by: Band on April 30, 2015, 07:57:27 AM
Since you are pretty new at this, do yourself a favor and buy a dozen inexpensive arrows to begin. The more expensive arrows may have a slight edge for accuracy in the hands of a master archer but at this stage those arrows are a waste of money. But, that doesn't mean you should go down to Walmart and grab arrows from the bin. Get arrows that come in a "set". Not sure what's available in your area, but I've used Carbon Hunter arrows from Cabelas and am currently using Carbon Raiders from Dick's. You should be able to get a dozen of either for around $60.
Post by: h20hunter on April 30, 2015, 08:02:27 AM
http://beman.com/
Post by: LeviD1 on April 30, 2015, 08:50:34 AM
Tried the pliers and putting on string! They r prob glued in. They are Easton carbon storm arrows. I can tell that if i could turn the nock the fletching would be able to clear it. I'm looking at getting better arrows tho. What are your fav arrows and does everybody use carbon arrows or r there still some aluminum arrow guys out there which do u prefer?
Not sure if it would work or not but you could try heating up the shaft where the knock is with a heatgun and see if that will do anything. Thats pretty dumb that they glued them in from factory.
Post by: Muleyman27 on May 01, 2015, 07:31:24 AM
I think most of us have switched from aluminum to carbon arrows by now, although no doubt there are holdouts. The problem I had with aluminums (back in the day) was that they are easily bent and rendered worthless for shooting. Carbon will break rather than bend but the chances of breaking a carbon arrow are far less than bending an aluminum arrow from my experience.
Since you are pretty new at this, do yourself a favor and buy a dozen inexpensive arrows to begin. The more expensive arrows may have a slight edge for accuracy in the hands of a master archer but at this stage those arrows are a waste of money. But, that doesn't mean you should go down to Walmart and grab arrows from the bin. Get arrows that come in a "set". Not sure what's available in your area, but I've used Carbon Hunter arrows from Cabelas and am currently using Carbon Raiders from Dick's. You should be able to get a dozen of either for around $60.
The arrows I have are from a set and they were 60 bucks a doz. if the nock twisted I could make them work but the vanes hit my cables and rip. and the ass end of arrows 4-5 inches the the left of point when they hit target I guess I need to get new arrows where the nocks twist
Post by: Band on May 01, 2015, 08:27:24 AM