Post by: raydog on April 07, 2015, 12:35:37 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on April 07, 2015, 04:15:21 PM
Post by: blindluck on April 07, 2015, 08:55:28 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 07, 2015, 11:13:47 PM
Tests that people like to do by pushing a broadhead through a piece of leather mean dang near nothing in the big picture of physics. That test is what is called a "Static Force" test. It measures the amount of increasing static force required to break the friction threshold of a medium. Increasing static friction is the exact opposite of what is happening when an arrow hits it's target.
When an arrow leaves the bow it has already broken the static threshold and it can no longer increase pressure/energy. So penetration is then determined by how an arrow/broadhead combination decelerates rather than how it accelerates or builds pressure/energy. By the time an arrow has lost enough energy and/or velocity to a point where it once again meets that static threshold and the point itself might make some level of impact one way or the other - all is lost. Meaning the resulting difference will me multiple times smaller than it was when static pressure was building rather than deteriorating.
Cut-on-contact points are usually married to a broadhead with only a single blade (two edges). So most confusion is brought on by trying to correlate the two (two edges and point configuration) when really the single blade plus long blade length to cutting diameter ratio is what led to the better penetration. The point didn't really mean anything!
Unless you are at the bottom of the draw length / draw weight spectrum penetration is not a big concern with todays compound bows. Much-a doo is made by lazy writers and marketing hype but it really is not the big concern it is led to be. So in my opinion you would be better served by choosing a broadhead that cuts well rather than one that has grand marketing hype and supposition.
Slick Trick broadheads aren't the best of the best when it comes to penetration. They are after all a four blade head with thick steep blades. But...Slick Trick heads have some of the best stainless blades on the market, the steeper blade angles do increase cutting once velocity of penetration starts to slow and they are rather easy to get to fly well. They also have a short but impressive history of leaving very impressive blood trails making that tracking job rather easy. To me that gives the Slick Trick the edge over some mildly sharp, fragile blade, cut-on-contact head.
Might not add up that way if you shoot a long bow, have a super short draw length or have some ailment where you must shoot at minimal draw weights. In that case the two edge or three blade heads have an advantage. Not necessarily because of the point. But because of the over all reduction in frictional surfaces.
Post by: raydog on April 08, 2015, 06:53:05 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on April 08, 2015, 07:16:32 AM
Post by: RadSav on April 08, 2015, 07:18:04 AM
Thanks a lot for the info Rad. I shoot a 68 pound bow with a 29.5" draw. I will probably stick to the Slick tricks or look into Savora BHs
You should have no problem with penetration with that setup! Just stay clear of the base of that big scapula. It will suck up just about any broadhead. I've found 6mm and 30 cal bullets plus a good number of muzzy balls in that darn thing over the years. I even had it stop a Zwickey tipped 2219 shot from an 80# bow. Luckily the second one went from anus to esophagus so I could find out what happened on that first shot!
We are using the same steel in our blades that Slick Trick does. I haven't checked the Rockwell hardness between the two, but I believe we are very close to theirs. Either one should be a good choice for elk, deer, bear or just about anything your likely to find on this continent!
Post by: h20hunter on April 08, 2015, 07:20:56 AM
Post by: raydog on April 08, 2015, 07:23:01 AM
Post by: RadSav on April 08, 2015, 07:29:40 AM
I shot the slick tricks a couple years then switched back to wac'em broadheads out of the two i preferred the wac'em a little more. Both heads killed animals i just think the wac'em came out in better shape most of the time.
Stainless grades are a bit goofy. 416 is more durable than AEB-L yet edge quality and damage resistance seems better on the AEB-L. Neither is as durable as 1095. And neither will sharpen as well as 1095. But both sell way better than 1095 ;)
We have had a few preliminary runs of AEB-L that have just not taken an edge well even at the appropriate Rockwell. And I always had problems with 416 edges not grinding. Instead they often fold the microscopic point of sharpness. So even the premium Sanvik and Uddeholm stainless can see some variation from lot to lot.
Post by: RadSav on April 08, 2015, 07:32:12 AM
If you had to choose out of the Savora broadhead line in 125 grain, Which would be you choice for Washington? Just curious
Ti-Con 125 for sure! Suppose to start shipping those on Monday!
We will have some prototype DelMastro 125 Titanium Signatures to play with by the end of next week too. Getting exciting around here.
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 08, 2015, 07:32:20 AM
I shot the slick tricks a couple years then switched back to wac'em broadheads out of the two i preferred the wac'em a little more. Both heads killed animals i just think the wac'em came out in better shape most of the time.
Stainless grades are a bit goofy. 416 is more durable than AEB-L yet edge quality and damage resistance seems better on the AEB-L. Neither is as durable as 1095. And neither will sharpen as well as 1095. But both sell way better than 1095 ;)
We have had a few preliminary runs of AEB-L that have just not taken an edge well even at the appropriate Rockwell. And I always had problems with 416 edges grinding rather than folding the microscopic point of sharpness. So even the premium Sanvik and Uddeholm stainless can see some variation from lot to lot.
I know what you mean
Post by: D-Rock425 on April 08, 2015, 08:52:20 AM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 08, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
I use wasp sst boss never tried cut on contact but the wasp have been great till lately, a couple of us have had the whole broadhead ferral bend or shear off.You got a bad batch !
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 08, 2015, 09:09:44 AM
Here is the worst damage I ever had on any Wasp boss ..100gr ..pass threw one shoulder blade of elk at 40 yrds quartering to me shot ..not counting how big this elk was ... :chuckle: We do have one kill under our belts with RadSav ( Savora ) only a spike :chuckle: Not much bone there :chuckle: Maybe I will try one on a turkey :tup:
Post by: h20hunter on April 08, 2015, 09:11:07 AM
I best note I am a RadSav fan now but Wasp will always be in my heart :chuckle: :chuckle:
Here is the worst damage I ever had on any Wasp boss ..100gr ..pass threw one shoulder blade of elk at 40 yrds quartering to me shot ..not counting how big this elk was ... :chuckle: We do have one kill under our belts with RadSav ( Savora ) only a spike :chuckle: Not much bone there :chuckle: Maybe I will try one on a turkey :tup:
Cool.....expanded bullets....busted up broadheads...love 'em.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 08, 2015, 09:11:51 AM
Post by: HillSlick on April 08, 2015, 02:50:30 PM
Saw a website where a guy shot one into a cinder block with an 80# bow, stayed intact. I was flabbergasted.
-"Progress once meant hope for the future, now it will destroy it."
Post by: justyhntr on April 16, 2015, 11:19:25 AM
Any recomendations for those who are short armed and female? Shooting 24.5 draw length 52 lb draw weight out of a compound.
Unless you are at the bottom of the draw length / draw weight spectrum penetration is not a big concern with todays compound bows.
Might not add up that way if you shoot a long bow, have a super short draw length or have some ailment where you must shoot at minimal draw weights. In that case the two edge or three blade heads have an advantage. Not necessarily because of the point. But because of the over all reduction in frictional surfaces.
thanks!
Post by: RadSav on April 17, 2015, 05:56:24 AM
Any recomendations for those who are short armed and female? Shooting 24.5 draw length 52 lb draw weight out of a compound.
Depends a bit on arrow weight. There is always a compromise to be had at these light weights and short lengths. On deer my wife never seems to have an arrow not pass all the way through. She shoots 24.5 - 25" draw length and usually 50#. we have seen a definate improvement in penetration when she moved north of 340 grains of arrow weight. So we've kept it around 350 grains.
On elk she seems to always get both lungs but doesn't always get through that opposite chest wall. Really depends on whether she hits a rib hard on exit or not. Different blades and points haven't really made a difference in that. because of this her blood trails are not always real heavy. So we try to stick with three blade heads over two blade heads. Usually 1" to 1.125" diameter without too steap an angle. Thunderhead 85, Whack'em, Montec are nice for ladies. I was quite impressed with our TripleSec LPS 100 on last years elk for her. Though my preference is for her to use the UltraCon and TiCon 100 heads we just released. She has field tested them extensively with zero animal loss and some fantastic long range shots with zero recovery distance.
With that said I have a good friend in N. Dakota with very young daughters shooting some very light poundage. They have been killing a good number of deer even with those limitations using two blade heads. I beleive their head of choice is the Strikland head. That would also be a highly recommended head for longbow shooters!
Post by: justyhntr on April 17, 2015, 07:00:08 AM
i will look at those Strickland heads also - thanks again!
Justyhntr's wife
Post by: RadSav on April 17, 2015, 11:11:35 AM
What are people's thoughts on single bevel broadheads like the grizzlystik maasai's?Good for African bound dentists
Post by: justyhntr on April 18, 2015, 06:24:49 AM
Post by: RadSav on April 19, 2015, 12:52:38 AM
so are you implying that they are not worth the price tag associated with them? I haven't personally use them yet, however the reading I did seem fairly impressive. I'm not going to argue, there is quite a sticker shock when looking at the cost of them. However if people have used them I'd be curious to know their experiences and what they think of the product overall.
There are advantages to single bevel heads. Initial prototype heads and even original patent images from both Duke Savora and Dick Maleski showed a preferred blade with a single beveled edge. Both of them quickly abandon the idea due to micro edge durability. The super thick blades the dentist uses should eliminate that problem to a large degree and also make them sharp which isn't all that easy a thing to accomplish with such a thick blade.
Is it worth the money? :dunno: Depends on your personal preference, I guess. If I was shooting some slow dog longbow at a buffalo...maybe! If I had any desire to tempt fate again and shoot a two blade broadhead I would probably take more than one look at a single bevel blade. Certainly could not be any worse than my personal experience with other two blade heads. I have close personal friends that shoot them and like them. Some of those friends are very successful bowhunters. Do they have shorter blood trails and quicker kills than I do? No, but they have confidence in it so who am I to tell them their money is better spent on something else?
If someone wants to use them instead of ours...that's ok with me. As long as it is not barbed or leaving animals out there to die a slow painful death I have little to say one way or the other. Certainly not the worst head on the market. Not even close!!! But, I doubt you will see us making one any time soon.