Post by: Fl0und3rz on April 26, 2015, 09:02:21 PM
If anyone is a service writer, if that's what it's called, I am interested in the standard labor budget for this and water pump replacement also.
For those who have done this, tips are appreciated.
F350 4wd, if that matters.
Post by: PiNkPaNtHeR on April 26, 2015, 11:10:25 PM
https://www.hastingsmfg.com/ServiceTips/ford_water_pump_leaks.htm
I've built/rebuilt 289's, 302's, a 351C, 360, 390 & 428, though. From my experience, changing a water pump is only slightly more difficult than changing an alternator. It has to be one of the simplest of tasks.
As the link shows, though, it's possible to get the gasket installed incorrectly - leading to the type of leak you described.
Good luck & if you have a specific question, I'll do my best to answer - or find an answer.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on April 27, 2015, 10:12:59 AM
Post by: PiNkPaNtHeR on April 27, 2015, 11:06:37 AM
I once let a friend install mine on a 351C while I was working on something else. I trusted him since he was more experienced than I was. I had just got my 'new' heads back from the machine shop and they were beautiful. My friend somehow got the cam out of sync with the crank and when we first went to fire the engine it wouldn't run. As it turned out, all the valves were bent. They basically opened when they were supposed to be closed and vice versa. That was both painful and a big delay in the weekend project of replacing the stock cam with a high performance cam.
I guess what I'm saying is that you can learn from my mistake - no need to do that to yourself. Just be careful and don't get the cam & crank out of sync.
BY the way - if you got 160K miles out of the stock water pump, that's good. Back in earlier models they rarely went more than 100K. AND there are some good options for high volume water pumps - something to think about if you're going to be towing heavy loads like a big 5th wheel or travel trailer, horse trailer or something like that. There are also some flex fans and electric fans that can effectively give you another HP or two at the crank. A lot of people don't realize how much power the stock fan can take to turn. Since I don't know what kind of fan you already have, this might be a moot point. I meant it more as a topic of conversation than a recommendation.
I'm not sure if this is anything you might be interested in, but if you can find a copy, there's a book entitled "Performance with Economy". The main focus of the book is how to maximize both. Most people think that if you increase performance, you give up the economy. That NOT always true, because there's a smarter (more efficient) way to do things. Two easy examples are 1) a free-flow exhaust system and 2) a better flowing air intake. After all, an internal combustion engine is nothing more than a fancy air pump. The more air you can pump through it, the more power you can make. Granted - this is a simplification, but think about it.
I hope this helps.
Post by: Woodchuck on April 27, 2015, 11:12:57 AM
What year is the truck?
Post by: PiNkPaNtHeR on April 27, 2015, 11:33:40 AM
Post by: Woodchuck on April 27, 2015, 11:51:54 AM
From the description, I'm not convinced that there's coolant in the oil - or even inside the timing chain cover. I might be wrong on that, but what I was thinking is that there's typically a 'weep hole' on the bottom of most of the water pumps that I've seen. There's a possibility that there's coolant coming out of the weep hold and dripping down the cover and being visible at the bottom. Just thinking to check it and see if the coolant really has somehow gotten inside of the timing chain cover. That's all.When you pull a timing cover off, the front lip of the oil pan will be open and exposed so any coolant in the cover and engine can easily dribble into the oil.
Post by: PiNkPaNtHeR on April 27, 2015, 12:59:45 PM
I just meant that the coolant might be dripping down the outside of the cover instead of the inside. If there actually IS coolant inside the cover, it will get into the oil and that's BAD. I would hope that the designers placed the weep hole outside of the timing chain cover.From the description, I'm not convinced that there's coolant in the oil - or even inside the timing chain cover. I might be wrong on that, but what I was thinking is that there's typically a 'weep hole' on the bottom of most of the water pumps that I've seen. There's a possibility that there's coolant coming out of the weep hold and dripping down the cover and being visible at the bottom. Just thinking to check it and see if the coolant really has somehow gotten inside of the timing chain cover. That's all.When you pull a timing cover off, the front lip of the oil pan will be open and exposed so any coolant in the cover and engine can easily dribble into the oil.
As for my comment about replacing the timing chain and gears - I would like to partially retract/correct that. What I should have said is that if there is excessive wear, I'd replace it. If not, don't worry about it. Unfortunately that means you'd have to remove the cover & would be right there anyway. I just checked my Chilton's manual & that job will be a little more work than just replacing the water pump. From what I was reading, it would also mean cutting away and replacing the part of the oil pan gasket at the forward end of the oil pan and putting some gasket material and gasket sealer back in its place. I would have thought they would just pull the oil pan and replace the entire gasket, but cutting away was what Chilton's said.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on April 27, 2015, 03:32:31 PM
Prices vary quite a bit on timing chain & gear sets. Here's a link that may be of interest: https://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2007/04/DontBeRetarded/index3.php
I'll keep it another 60K, likely. I picked up parts ($33'ish), as it seemed a straightforward, if not tedious repair, and will do the timing chain, too. I won't clank the valves into the pistons.
BY the way - if you got 160K miles out of the stock water pump, that's good.
I am at least the third owner, probably fourth. Probably not the original water pump, and a TC cover repair looks to have been done previously, judging from the amount of RTV/goop on the TC cover/block junction. A prior guy did a lot of towing/camper hauling, so it is pretty set up as far as towing, but I don't know if the water pump is OEM or high flow. I went with stock replacement parts.
I'm not sure if this is anything you might be interested in, but if you can find a copy, there's a book entitled "Performance with Economy". The main focus of the book is how to maximize both. Most people think that if you increase performance, you give up the economy. That NOT always true, because there's a smarter (more efficient) way to do things. Two easy examples are 1) a free-flow exhaust system and 2) a better flowing air intake. After all, an internal combustion engine is nothing more than a fancy air pump. The more air you can pump through it, the more power you can make. Granted - this is a simplification, but think about it.
I hope this helps.
Thanks for the tips. I'll keep it in mind as there is certainly room for improvement.
The bolts that go through the timing cover are Known to rust and break off in the block.
Yikes. That would be cause for cussing and throwing stuff.
Make sure that the sealing surface of the cover to the block doesn't have a bunch of pock marks in it.
Be sure to change oil and filter when done, even if it's brand new. It doesn't take much coolant in the oil pan to wreck a guys day. :twocents:
New TC cover (I read that these are essentially consumable items), oil, and filter in hand.
What year is the truck?
1992
Parts obtained:
Felpro gasket set (comes with the portion of the oil pan gasket you have to cut when replacing the TC cover);
TC cover;
Water pump;
Thermostat;
Belts;
Timing chain set;
Oil and filter (I thought this obvious);
Various and sundry lubricants, sealants (gasket maker, permatex), etc.;
Case of beer.
Also going to put in a freeze plug block heater and a set of manual Warn hubs, if I get time.
No worries of coolant in the oil (no foam on the cap, and oil is not brownish (versus simply black for plain dirty oil)). I was initially worried about a cracked block, even though I traced it to the seal, until I confirmed that the TC cover does in fact have coolant passages. There are some pretty good threads out there on other forums where guys have the exact same symptoms (leaking from the 2 o'clock position on the seal between the TC cover and the block). It should be a straightforward job if I can get the TC cover gasket to stay on right.
Thanks again for the helpful advice. I have the tech service manual portion and a chilton's that should help things along.
Post by: Buckmark on April 27, 2015, 03:46:39 PM
You and pink panther are missing the point about coolant getting into the oil, what woodchuck is letting you know is when you remove the timing cover some coolant may get into the oil from the exposed holes in the engine block, some may even run out and into the oil pan when you are loosening the T/C cover bolts, you may also get some crap and cleaners into the oil as you do the job from the front part of the oil pan being open.....coolant and bearings do not play nice together...Prices vary quite a bit on timing chain & gear sets. Here's a link that may be of interest: https://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2007/04/DontBeRetarded/index3.php
I'll keep it another 60K, likely. I picked up parts ($33'ish), as it seemed a straightforward, if not tedious repair, and will do the timing chain, too. I won't clank the valves into the pistons.BY the way - if you got 160K miles out of the stock water pump, that's good.
I am at least the third owner, probably fourth. Probably not the original water pump, and a TC cover repair looks to have been done previously, judging from the amount of RTV/goop on the TC cover/block junction. A prior guy did a lot of towing/camper hauling, so it is pretty set up as far as towing, but I don't know if the water pump is OEM or high flow. I went with stock replacement parts.
I'm not sure if this is anything you might be interested in, but if you can find a copy, there's a book entitled "Performance with Economy". The main focus of the book is how to maximize both. Most people think that if you increase performance, you give up the economy. That NOT always true, because there's a smarter (more efficient) way to do things. Two easy examples are 1) a free-flow exhaust system and 2) a better flowing air intake. After all, an internal combustion engine is nothing more than a fancy air pump. The more air you can pump through it, the more power you can make. Granted - this is a simplification, but think about it.
I hope this helps.
Thanks for the tips. I'll keep it in mind as there is certainly room for improvement.The bolts that go through the timing cover are Known to rust and break off in the block.
Yikes. That would be cause for cussing and throwing stuff.Make sure that the sealing surface of the cover to the block doesn't have a bunch of pock marks in it.
Be sure to change oil and filter when done, even if it's brand new. It doesn't take much coolant in the oil pan to wreck a guys day. :twocents:
New TC cover (I read that these are essentially consumable items), oil, and filter in hand.What year is the truck?
1992
Parts obtained:
Felpro gasket set (comes with the portion of the oil pan gasket you have to cut when replacing the TC cover);
TC cover;
Water pump;
Thermostat;
Belts;
Timing chain set;
Various and sundry lubricants, sealants (gasket maker, permatex), etc.;
Case of beer.
Also going to put in a freeze plug block heater and a set of manual Warn hubs, if I get time.
No worries of coolant in the oil (no foam on the cap, and oil is not brownish (versus simply black for plain dirty oil)). I was initially worried about a cracked block, even though I traced it to the seal, until I confirmed that the TC cover does in fact have coolant passages. There are some pretty good threads out there on other forums where guys have the exact same symptoms (leaking from the 2 o'clock position on the seal between the TC cover and the block). It should be a straightforward job if I can get the TC cover gasket to stay on right.
Thanks again for the helpful advice. I have the tech service manual portion and a chilton's that should help things along.
Buy a filter and some oil and do the job right..!!!!
Post by: Fl0und3rz on April 27, 2015, 03:57:13 PM
Buy a filter and some oil and do the job right..!!!!
Not missing the point. It's in parts list (now, but I was already planning on oil and filter change), no worries.
Post by: Buckmark on April 27, 2015, 04:33:00 PM
Good, from your past saying you did not see foam on the filler cap (not usually what you will see when there is a leak getting coolant in the oil) or brownish oil (usually what you will see from a leak into the crankcase, chocolate milk)... :tup:
Buy a filter and some oil and do the job right..!!!!
Not missing the point. It's in parts list (now, but I was already planning on oil and filter change), no worries.
I get lots of people that come in with the white crap on there oil cap thinking they have coolant in the oil.....
If that T/C has been off before than hopefully you will be good with the bolts that pass through into the block (long ones) check them when you have then out, any corrosion or tapering then replace them....When they break coming out it sucks to have to drill and remove....it sucks but is frustrating when you reinstall questionable ones and the break going back together..... :twocents:
Post by: Fl0und3rz on April 27, 2015, 05:22:01 PM
Good, from your past saying you did not see foam on the filler cap (not usually what you will see when there is a leak getting coolant in the oil) or brownish oil (usually what you will see from a leak into the crankcase, chocolate milk)... :tup:
Buy a filter and some oil and do the job right..!!!!
Not missing the point. It's in parts list (now, but I was already planning on oil and filter change), no worries.
I get lots of people that come in with the white crap on there oil cap thinking they have coolant in the oil.....
If that T/C has been off before than hopefully you will be good with the bolts that pass through into the block (long ones) check them when you have then out, any corrosion or tapering then replace them....When they break coming out it sucks to have to drill and remove....it sucks but is frustrating when you reinstall questionable ones and the break going back together..... :twocents:
Good thoughts on the bolts. Ford specs pipe sealant for them.
If white/tan foam on the oil filler is not coolant in the oil, what is it?
Post by: timberghost72 on April 27, 2015, 07:00:11 PM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on April 27, 2015, 08:07:53 PM
Post by: coachcw on April 28, 2015, 06:42:27 AM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on April 28, 2015, 07:07:23 AM
I got some ultrablue gasketmaker for the oilpan junction and permatex form-a-gasket (the old brown stuff) for the other gaskets. But I'll grab some of the right stuff on your recommendation. Do you have recommended sealant for the water pump, thermostat and TC surfaces?
Oh and gaskets will be done the old fashioned way, cursing and scraping.
Post by: Woodchuck on April 28, 2015, 07:12:31 AM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on April 28, 2015, 07:24:48 AM
The gray coach talked about is good for the cover, should not need it on the water pump or thermostat. The big thing with the bolts is that they are small, rusted nearly every time there is a coolant leak at the timing cover, and break easily. The real pain is drilling out the broken pieces, is very easy to get off line while drilling and opening a whole new can of worms.
Been there, done that, on an air cooled VW exhaust stud. Fortunately, used heads were cheaper than a tank of gas at the time. Penetrating oil worth it on these if the threads are not exposed?
My anxiety is up over these stupid bolts (makes you want to grab the responsible engineer by the shirt collar). Fortunately I will have the old TC cover to use as somewhat of a jig if I end up having to drill out a bolt. On that note, any good guys/gals in S. King or Pierce (will be doing work in Puyallup) to take it if I do snap one off in the block?
Any recommendations on replacement bolts? Stainless?
Post by: timberghost72 on April 28, 2015, 07:50:01 AM
Post by: baker5150 on April 28, 2015, 07:50:13 AM
The gray coach talked about is good for the cover, should not need it on the water pump or thermostat. The big thing with the bolts is that they are small, rusted nearly every time there is a coolant leak at the timing cover, and break easily. The real pain is drilling out the broken pieces, is very easy to get off line while drilling and opening a whole new can of worms.
Been there, done that, on an air cooled VW exhaust stud. Fortunately, used heads were cheaper than a tank of gas at the time. Penetrating oil worth it on these if the threads are not exposed?
My anxiety is up over these stupid bolts (makes you want to grab the responsible engineer by the shirt collar). Fortunately I will have the old TC cover to use as somewhat of a jig if I end up having to drill out a bolt. On that note, any good guys/gals in S. King or Pierce (will be doing work in Puyallup) to take it if I do snap one off in the block?
Any recommendations on replacement bolts? Stainless?
If it were me I would replace the bolts with factory spec. or similar but a higher grade bolt.
Stainless bolts can be brittle and will expand/contract at a different rate than the cast block.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on April 28, 2015, 07:56:44 AM
Post by: coachcw on April 28, 2015, 08:37:44 AM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on May 03, 2015, 09:42:45 AM
Small leak at thermostat flange, but I got lazy near the end and didn't clean surfaces enough or use sealant. Small fix. Only snapped two small screws, one on the ignition timing indicator and one on the fan shroud bracket. NBD.
Valve timing on timing chain replacement went smoothly. Judging by the chain deflection, I probably should have replaced it anyway, so it was nice to have every part on hand.
Every bolt got antiseize or permatex thread sealant for the ones around or into the coolant passage.
I did use the permatex therightstuff gray on the TC cover to block gasket but I used permatex high tack gasket sealant on the water pump and backing plate gaskets, just because it was easier to have the gaskets well in place on reassembly.
For future reference, TC cover and water pump bolts are all or mostly all 5/16-18. There were 6, 4 inch, and 5 that varied between about 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inches. Making a bolt map helped immensely on reassembly, as did leaving bolts in brackets or placing in new parts if possible as they came off.
Water pump and timing cover gasket could have been original (water pump had black epoxy-like paint on it and the pan gasket appeared to be the original (so original timing cover gasket, likely). So not too shabby for 160K+ miles.
Thanks again guys.
Now for the thermostat leak and hubs next weekend.