Post by: Trapper John on April 26, 2015, 09:44:52 PM
Well I got this call over the weekend and this person tells me that something killed one of there family goats. So I am hire to come over and see if I can help them identify the animal that did this. The goat didn't come back to the barn in the evening and they found it in the morning dead. They told me that they have been hearing coyotes the last few nights howling. They think and are convinced that the coyotes are responsible for doing it.
Let me give you a little background on myself first for those that don't know who I am. I have been trapping for 42-43 years and I have been doing animal damage control work for 35-36 year. I worked for USDA-APHIS-ADC and I had my own ADC Business for 28 years.
I have seen a lot of animals killed by another animal. I have seen bobcat killing kid goats, coyotes killing lambs, sheep, calves, duck, geese and even attaches on people. Nasty critter >:( I've seen bear damage and bear kills on livestock. I've seen mountain lion kills on horses. When first went into business for myself, I remember a job that I did where a weasel when into a chicken coop and killed 50 Rhode island Red chickens. :yike: Two weeks later I got another call from another guy that almost had the same problem with a weasel that came into his barnyard and killed $1,200.00 of pheasants that he was raising :yike: I figured it out pretty quick and where the weasel was getting in to the pens and solved that problem the next day when it came back.
I think I seen a lot of animals killed by other animals for sure. When your in this line of business you need to be right on and not just shoot from the hip and guess what you think it is.
Take a look at the photos and tell me what you think did it and I'll let you know in a couple of days of what did it and how it points to this animal. Hear a couple of hints. The barnyard is fenced in five feet high with wood fencing three rows high running vertical. The two vertical rolls from the ground up say 4 feet high have 2"x4" wire fencing attached to the boards so something would have to jump over or climb up and jump down. The goat was killed in the middle of the field no brush around or very little. One one animal did this is was not a pack of them.
JC :hello:
Post by: dreamingbig on April 26, 2015, 09:49:37 PM
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Post by: Trapper John on April 26, 2015, 09:50:54 PM
JC :hello:
Post by: kisfish on April 26, 2015, 09:51:39 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 26, 2015, 10:02:31 PM
Post by: dreamunelk on April 26, 2015, 10:09:07 PM
Also possible bear but, it would have packed it off and again with out looking knowing what if any other trauma still think dog.
Post by: Humptulips on April 26, 2015, 10:26:15 PM
Post by: ouchfoss on April 26, 2015, 10:28:37 PM
Leaning towards cougar. But, they tend to be a little more efficient in gutting. Can not tell how it was killed. So I would be looking at what kind of dogs they have and looking for tracks or other indications. Bobcats can take a goat also but, same thing they tend to be a little more efficient. So I am just going to say domestic dog.:yeah: I am no expert but I would think that a cat would attack the neck/head area first and and kill it that way. Head and neck look untouched from what I can see. I can picture a domestic dog chasing the goat and biting and tearing at it hind end rather than going for the juggler. :dunno:
Also possible bear but, it would have packed it off and again with out looking knowing what if any other trauma still think dog.
Also, considering what time of year it is, I would think that bears are in fawn kill-mode and probably wouldnt hesitate to kill a goat. I'm not sure what a for sure bear kill looks like though. I would think they'd eat alot more meat off a goat too.
Post by: 6haase6 on April 26, 2015, 10:58:15 PM
Post by: stevemiller on April 26, 2015, 11:04:05 PM
Post by: Quackwhacker on April 26, 2015, 11:10:23 PM
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Post by: RadSav on April 26, 2015, 11:45:10 PM
I don't think it would be a domestic dog as there is not enough damage to the legs, ears and face. I also see few domestic dogs getting over that fence.
My first thought was a bear. But attacking in a open field seems odd. I also thought bear targeted goat udders :dunno: Even if it is lacking there is something there. All bear kills I've seen also have a good amount of hide skinned off around the entrance to the chest cavity and the hind quarters. I think the lack of skinning would also eliminate an eagle. I've seen bear try to cross fences before...they can but it's usually quite entertaining. So now I'm having second thoughts about it being a bear.
So now I am thinking Wolf or Coyote. I would think a coyote would have done more in the area of the neck. Plus that looks bigger than a newborn kid and it appears to have been dragged a bit more than a single coyote would be capable. Guess the paunch and intestines could have been dumped during the kill instead of after. But that seems like a hard task for an average 'yote. Not ruling out coyote just yet based on the limited neck detail in the pics. Especially since the landowners seem to think it was a coyote kill. If eastside it does make me feel like my guess should be Wolf...
or chupacabra ;)
Post by: 3dsheetmetal on April 27, 2015, 04:30:38 AM
Post by: jasnt on April 27, 2015, 05:25:28 AM
Post by: grundy53 on April 27, 2015, 06:18:19 AM
Post by: jackelope on April 27, 2015, 06:21:01 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 27, 2015, 07:22:02 AM
I'm going with a stray domestic dog. I think that's an oberhasl goat so not a huge goat like a Nubian. I'm guessing it was relatively close to Monroe so going to rule out the wolves. Domestic dogs are a big time goat killer. Bad mix unless they're trained or have been around goats regularly and goats are pretty fragile.+1
I have seen lots of lion kills and this doesn't look right for that. How much pre-mortal injury?? Was this a "fight" or a pretty quick kill?
Post by: flcracker on April 27, 2015, 07:26:44 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on April 27, 2015, 08:01:02 AM
Eagle :yike:This is what I was thinking but the more I look at the photos I am torn as the goat appears to be a full sized goat. If it were a new born I would definitely say eagle.
Post by: luvmystang67 on April 27, 2015, 08:18:38 AM
If the goat was sick or got stuck upside down or something it could have easily been a bird. We have eagles and ravens take advantage of our sheep all the time. They always start ripping them open right there in the soft of their abdomen. Especially if the eyes are pecked out, I would say bird.
They don't usually bug healthier animals, but it doesn't take much for them to be sick or down and get pounced.
We've also seen eagles work in tandem and knock a ~50 lb lamb off its feet while the other waited for it on the ground and then pounced it. Depending on how much food they have they can get very aggressive. Ravens are usually worse, but less able to be predatory.
I don't think that is what this is because it looks healthy, but it happens to ours quite often in a place with no other predators. :twocents:
Domestic dogs tend to like to bite their faces...
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 27, 2015, 08:20:25 AM
Post by: Badhabit on April 27, 2015, 08:34:30 AM
Post by: jbeaumont21 on April 27, 2015, 08:37:30 AM
Post by: Bigshooter on April 27, 2015, 08:38:29 AM
I'm going to say domestic dog. Didn't eat much and no attempt to cover the carcass like a cat:yeah:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 27, 2015, 09:02:04 AM
The dog kills I remember seem to have been real messy, usually the throat/face ripped up and blood all over. :dunno:
Curious to see the culprit.
Post by: h2ofowlr on April 27, 2015, 09:27:23 AM
Post by: docsven on April 27, 2015, 09:43:49 AM
Post by: Humptulips on April 27, 2015, 10:57:42 AM
Definitely a wolverine.
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"Wolverines, like 50 of 'em! They kept trying to attack my cousins, what the heck would you do in a situation like that? Used a freakin' 12-gauge, what do you think?" Napoleon Dynamite
Post by: Quackwhacker on April 27, 2015, 11:35:02 AM
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Post by: grundy53 on April 27, 2015, 11:39:40 AM
Post by: RadSav on April 27, 2015, 12:14:06 PM
The area where it began eating makes me think cat. Young lion.
Huh! That is what got me to thinking coyote or wolf.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on April 27, 2015, 12:26:31 PM
I'd really like to skin back that neck and look for punctures, and size and spacing. I'd also be looking for scat in the vicinity, doesn't look like you'll get tracks in that locale. I'm eager to learn what you know! Thanks for sharing.
Post by: RadSav on April 27, 2015, 12:51:13 PM
I'd love to see high res photos; I see a scratch on the muzzle and a possible canine puncture just below and behind the mandible.
I'd really like to skin back that neck and look for punctures, and size and spacing. I'd also be looking for scat in the vicinity, doesn't look like you'll get tracks in that locale. I'm eager to learn what you know! Thanks for sharing.
I blew the photo up and with the amount of purple splotches I just could not tell for sure. One time I look at it and it looks like punctures the next time it doesn't. I too would like a better look at the neck.
The stomach and intestines being opened made me eliminate cat altogether - Bobcat or Cougar.
But what do I know :dunno: I took a one hour course back in 1985 before doing state nuisance control. 30 years is a bit of a stretch for my feeble mind to remember anything for certain. These days I'm lucky to remember that I even took that course ;)
I like these type of threads! I too am eager to learn how little I know :chuckle: These are fun!
Post by: jrebel on April 27, 2015, 01:58:53 PM
Pic #5 shows large amounts of stomach contents 5-10 feet away from where the goat lays now???? Could it have died in Pic #5 and been dragged to where it lays in the other pics?
Hmmmmm......I have no idea, but can't wait to here what comes of this. :chuckle: :chuckle:
My total guess is dog of some sort. I think I remember seeing on some national geographic program that cats eat from underbelly first.
Post by: Widgeondeke on April 27, 2015, 02:11:04 PM
Post by: docsven on April 27, 2015, 03:20:01 PM
The area where it began eating makes me think cat. Young lion.
Huh! That is what got me to thinking coyote or wolf.
Not because of the stomach, because of the hindquarter. Looks like a lot of meat missing off the round. Could be a cat started on it, and left, and a coyote came along and started on the guts.
This should be interesting.
Post by: RadSav on April 27, 2015, 03:29:26 PM
Could be a cat started on it, and left, and a coyote came along and started on the guts.
Ooooo! Now that is a fun twist...Nice :chuckle:
Post by: fastdam on April 27, 2015, 04:04:19 PM
Post by: actionshooter on April 27, 2015, 04:16:52 PM
I don't know what it is, but dogs love the chase goats.
Post by: RadSav on April 27, 2015, 04:20:21 PM
Post by: Bullkllr on April 27, 2015, 04:57:26 PM
Post by: stew pidasso on April 27, 2015, 06:25:49 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 27, 2015, 06:51:00 PM
Was there a pig in the pen with the goat?
I thought of asking that question too :chuckle:
Although on Catalina a goat wouldn't make it four hours before nothing was left. Once had a buffalo killed by a hunter, supposedly self defense-ha, on a Friday afternoon and by Monday morning there was nothing but a 12" deep hole in the ground where the bison had been. Darn pigs even ate the dirt :o
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 28, 2015, 01:26:24 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 28, 2015, 02:30:00 PM
Post by: cbond3318 on April 28, 2015, 02:53:43 PM
Post by: h20hunter on April 28, 2015, 02:56:03 PM
:dunno: :chuckle:
Post by: Trapper John on April 28, 2015, 02:56:45 PM
Okay here it is:
Bird of Prey ~ Eagles ~ Nope
Large Predators ~ Bears ~ Nope
Felines Predators ~ Mountain Lions or Bobcat ~ Nope
Canine Predators ~ Coyote ...... No ........ "domestic dog" ........... Oh Ya ! :yike:
How do you tell the differences between feline and canine is this;
Feline is a clean killer. Bobcat or mountain lion kill by jumping on the animals back (deer, horse, sheep) climbing on its back up to the neck reaching around underneath and shutting off the windpipe killing the animal. Than the cat will open up the flank taking out the intestine and putting them in a pile off to the side. Than eating the heart and liver first than either bury the animal under debris or eating some of it for a meal. If it eats it, it will start to eat on the hindquarters getting the most out of the animal.
Canine is a dirt killer. Canine's such as coyote, wolves, dogs will kill the animal by biting its hamstrings or pushing the animal over down to the ground. Than they will eat the animal alive from the hindquarters in.
Domestic dog is a dirty killer if they kill at all and a lot of animals have been injured by dogs. This goat was killed a dog for fun. This dog held on to the goat and twisted and tore the goats skin and breaking its hip bone. It also pulled out the intestines and through them out of its way which is a telltale sign of canines. Bears will do the same.
As I investigated the area more I ran across a large dog print. I put a pocketknife next to it and took a picture. The pocketknife is four inches long. You can see the dogs toenails in the print. Cats you can't see their claws. This was most-likely the neighbors dog. While I was there the neighbors dog was sitting at the property line watching what I was doing. After awhile the neighbor came over and said he was wondering if his dog could be responsible for this :rolleyes: I showed him the large dog print and left it at that. He knew :o
Anyway guys great work :tup:
JC :hello:
JC :hello:
Post by: cbond3318 on April 28, 2015, 02:58:03 PM
TGVDave.....he found your goat unattended....decided to just eat it on the spot because thats how he rolls.
:dunno: :chuckle:
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: Hey fair is fair...
Post by: Ebell on April 28, 2015, 03:00:20 PM
That was a fun game, have anymore?
Post by: splitshot on April 28, 2015, 03:14:58 PM
Post by: Quackwhacker on April 28, 2015, 05:23:48 PM
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Post by: jasnt on April 28, 2015, 05:32:22 PM
How did the dog get in to the enclosure? That's where I was stumped and figured it had to be a cat.:yeah:
That was a fun game, have anymore?
Post by: RadSav on April 28, 2015, 06:47:09 PM
Was fun and educational. Thank you Trapper John.
Post by: mburrows on April 28, 2015, 07:03:22 PM
Post by: hrd2fnd on April 28, 2015, 07:27:03 PM
:yeah:
Was fun and educational. Thank you Trapper John.
Post by: Trapper John on April 28, 2015, 08:37:22 PM
How did the dog get in to the enclosure? That's where I was stumped and figured it had to be a cat.
That was a fun game, have anymore?
The dog is a big dog something like a German Shepard. It is a African Ridge-Back, 175 pounds of per muscle. They have them over in Africa to fight off "lions" from homes and hunting camps. If this dog is around you your pretty safe a lion is not going to get you.
Remember I said it was a 5' fence with 4 feet of 2x4 wire attached to it.
Coyotes are diggers for you folks that didn't know. Yes coyotes will jump a fence but for some reason they stop at about four feet. They would rather dig under a fence than go over it. I believe it is because they can't drag their kill over the fence (don't have strong jaws like a cat, plus it might hang up on the fence) so they rather drag it under a fence. :)
This dog is a large dog and large dogs will jump high or should I say higher fences than a coyote because their not going in to get something to eat they are going in to have fun and kill something. Their owners feed them they don't have to work for their meals.
If I had my way I would :bfg: shovel and shut-up
JC :hello:
Post by: Humptulips on April 28, 2015, 08:46:02 PM
Post by: dreamunelk on April 28, 2015, 08:54:32 PM
Post by: Trapper John on April 28, 2015, 09:18:47 PM
What kind of domestic dog was it? Seems odd there was not more evidence on the nose, ears and lower legs for it to be a domestic dog. Most if not all the farm animals I have seen killed by domestic dogs were killed by Shepard mixes. In those cases the animals were really bit up well in the ears and nose. Hind legs were usually torn up rather well too. And the real tell was all the slobber and matting of hair around where they latched on while playing with the poor creature. The lack of any of that is why I discarded the domestic dog.
Was fun and educational. Thank you Trapper John.
It is a African Ridge-Back, 175 pounds of per muscle, stands about 36" at the shoulders. He will stare you down and will not blink. Kind of creepy.
Your right on the mouthing of the dead goat, its didn't show signs that a dog did this until you started looking closer.
Years ago I was called out to a almost same job like this one. I goat farmer called me and said that she had four of her goats attached by a cougar and was wondering if I could come out and get the cougar. SO I went over to her farm and she had 200 plus goats that she milked everyday. She had a real nice modern milking farm. Top notch place. Anyway when I got there three of the four goats were still alive and standing upright. I thought right away there is no way a cougar did this.
The three goats hides were hanging off of them. I mean they were skinned alive and they are still alive with raw meat showing. :puke: She thinks that one maybe two lions attached them. I told her if they were lions the goats would be dead and dragged off and eaten. She said well what did this? :dunno:
So I knew it wasn't feline but I was pretty dam sure it was canine. I also knew that this was not the works of coyotes either. I have done a lot of coyote work and this wasn't coyote. So I told her that this was the works of domestic dogs. She said that they haven't seen any dogs on the farm other than theirs and if they did because of the goats they shoot on sight. So she said: "do you think it could be one of our dogs?" :) I said; It could be.
So she says lets check them to see. She called over two of her dogs (Austrian Shepard's) and starts to look at there fur, toenails, collars and bodies for any sign of blood or and evident that they did it. No sign. Than as she is checking over the dogs, her sons young Austrian Shepard comes over to me and lays on his back and wants his tummy rubbed. Nice looking dog year old, pretty white and brown coat. Oh and the white fur on this dog had a lot of fresh blood..... :bash: I said to her; here is the dog responsible for this problem. :yike:
She looked at me and grabbed that dog pulled it up on its feet so quick that I don't think this dog knew what was coming next. What came next surprise me :yike: she grabbed my 357 mag side arm ( I carry that if I get a cougar call for my safety) and shot that dog right on the spot. :yike: I mean it was over right there and now! Than she handed me back my pistol and called her son over and told him to go and bury this dog.
Don't make old lady's mad........... :tup:
This was great guys, you all did good :tup: :tup: two thumbs up
JC :hello:
This was great guys, you all did good :tup: :tup: two thumbs up
JC :hello: